★ Top Fifteen Tournament #15 - Kueller

I wasn't referring to Yoda, no. However, Sidious is a different story - he has direct statements placing his saber abilities as on par with Yoda and Windu circa ROTJ, implying that either (A) he hasn't declined in skill, or (B) his augmentation has improved enough to the point where it compensates for any decrease in ability.

One source from a card game, if I remember correctly (please correct me if I'm wrong). And point (B) supports my point. Augmentation or not, his actual skill can deteriorate, meaning he's not as good as he was. It's largely irrelevant anyway, since Sidious didn't view saber fighting as a focus and more of a hobby. He wouldn't class himself as a duelist, for example.

Not debatable - OOU sources clarify Kenobi is at least as good as Vader in sabers.

You're confusing ANH Vader with TFU 2 Vader.

Well, I'd then argue that Starkiller's Force Powers are likewise more potent than his Lightsaber abilities

I thought this was already generally accepted.

Changing my vote to the only remaining option; Arcann

@Azronger

Nice post. Before I make my full response, I feel I am obligated to clear up some things that might've been misunderstood.

[l. KUELLER DOES NOT SCALE TO EMPEROR PALPATINE] 

Leia's musings on Kueller were never meant to solidify Kueller above peak Palpatine as of mid-novel (that's ludicrous) and this would imply that peak Kueller is significantly beyond Dark Empire Sidious. This was simply was never an argument.

Since we've debated on the Kueller respect thread, my stance has changed on what Mara's musings mean. Instead of Kueller's growth rate exceeding Sidious, Mara's musings mean that due to the Pydyrian death energies, Kueller's growth rate is nigh astronomical. Mara simply likens it to the most powerful being she's ever encountered, Darth Sidious. Mara knowing exactly how powerful Sidious is, is irrelevant, as the quotes only serve to prove Kueller has grown enormously sinse his first encounter with Luke, not to make the comparison to Sidious. 

I will address the other points in my full post.

For now I stand with Arcann

@The Dark Apprentice

Uh... did you say I was the one with reading comprehension problems? Sir, if you will kindly look at the quote, it specifically says Vader is even more powerful in the force than he is lethal with his lightsaber. Which was my point... the quote literally compares the two and confirms that he is more powerful in the force than he is skilled with a blade.

I did read the rest of the quote, but once again it's not relevant to my argument. Even if Vader is a better Lightsaber duellist than Starkiller, and better with the Force than he is with a Lightsaber, that does not mean he's superior to Starkiller in the Force, as Starkiller likewise is better with the Force than he is with a saber - he even has disproportionate Telekinetic and Force Lightning powers. The point of my discussion with Geistalt was specifically Force Power, and this accolade does not draw a direct connection between the two - it can be disputed - so using it to address my point that, "Vader doesn't have any statements saying he's the second most powerful man in the galaxy circa TFU II.", is futile.

Also, if you ever deign to cop out with "that's hyperbole!" don't expect anyone to take you serious. You can't handwave things away like you try so desperately to do. If you don't think the quotes add up then maybe change your perceptions on one or the other, but don't act like I don't understand the material when you blatantly ignore things in favor your interpretation.

It's not a cop-out - just look at the surrounding context:



The quote calling Darth Vader "the embodiment of all evil", and stating that "you can be sure to find" him "behind every dark occurrence in the galaxy", isn't hyperbole? That seems highly suspect. And if you admit it is, then why wouldn't the rest of the quote follow in its footsteps? If one statement is exaggerative to hype up the boss then why not the rest - when I can demonstrably prove the rest is false in lore?

Hell, the Prima Guide sure seems to love being non-literal - just look at the other boss descriptions - the Gorog is described as "90 percent muscle, nine percent rage, and one percent brain", for example.

It's actually not. The point here was that Vader being the second most powerful man in the galaxy placed him above Starkiller. As you said, those quote were from ANH. You claimed:

While this isn't a quote saying he's "second most powerful"

You're contradicting yourself. Your original post painted itself as definitive, you, of course, were just "explaining the English language" and making good-faith arguments to refute my point. Now, you're backtracking away from the original point of contention, and trying to frame it as a general Vader vs SK discussion; which it wasn't.

it does support the idea he is above Starkiller which was the main topic of discussion you were having with Geisalt to begin with. So yes, a quote grammatically saying that Vader's abilities as of TFU 2 are superior to everyone else's in the game (Galen included) is in fact consequential to your point.

The quote doesn't "grammatically" say that at all. As I stated at the start of my post: "Even if Vader is a better Lightsaber duellist than Starkiller, and better with the Force than he is with a Lightsaber, that does not mean he's superior to Starkiller in the Force, as Starkiller likewise is better with the Force than he is with a saber - he even has disproportionate Telekinetic and Force Lightning powers."

Actually I did provide justification, perhaps you didn't read? I said it has to be referring to TFU 2 only since the inclusion of the rest of the galaxy would put the Emperor in the list of people that are "unable to equal" Darth Vader, which we both know is false. So either, it's a lorebreaking quote or we can reconcile it by placing it in the span of the game only.

I read your "justification", yes, but I didn't find it particularly convincing and asked for further clarification on "why a general summary about Vader's skill and abilities be limiting itself to TFU 2 only". The accolade being contradictory does not mean we have to force wrong interpretations onto it when there's already an apparent explanation; that being that it's hyperbole. Again, read the quote:



It's a general character summary about Vader's place in the galaxy; not his place specifically in TFU II - it even mentions events outside of those in the game. Your assumption about it solely referring to characters in the game isn't made clear within the quote, and is arbitrary as well as unwarranted.

Out of respect for Syndiciate and his legacy I won't trash your exhaustion argument (especially not on this thread.)

Another cheap cop-out to worm out of addressing that which cannot be addressed. Starkiller is clearly massively superior to Vader based on an exhausted version of him (A) defeating an army that could have "easily overpowered" Vader, and (B) defeating Vader himself.

But I will ask you to provide this instance of Vader "capitalizing an opening" from Starkiller.

It's simple, if Vader could ragdoll Galen at will without an opening, he would have done so at any moment in the fight. Vader only catches Starkiller out when at moments when he's vulnerable; this is a verifiable fact based on all mediums of TFU II, and I have no reason to assume this is any different for the scene in the XBOX version.

Because I know where it comes from, and once again you haven't done your homework.

I have done my homework - I've watched, read, and played, basically all relevant adaptions of the fight.

Starkiller is "distracted" in the Wii version of the game, yet you conveniently left out the part that the Wii version differs in several ways, even in that scene. Vader grips Starkiller in a choke and hauls him to the top of the tower, this is different to the novel and Xbox version.

I wasn't referring to the Wii version, so this point is irrelevant.

In the X-box version the reason cited for the ragdoll is specifically Vader being "too powerful."

Agreed, Vader is too powerful for an exhausted Starkiller who is hindered by rage.

Also, cite me where Starkiller was hindered by rage? The game goes out of it's way to explain that "force fury" amplifies your abilities to extraordinary levels.

I've honestly had enough of addressing your points for one day, so I'll just link you a post where I explain this.

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t387p50-ss-darth-plagueis-meatpants-vs-galen-marek-arkhamasylum3

To save you the trouble of finding it in a mountain of points, just Ctrl + F "gif 1", and you should find it.

Furthermore, this is all a vain attempt to run away from the argument that the quote saying Vader is "unparalleled" is referencing the entirety of TFU 2, including the endgame. What was it you said? Ah yes, READING COMPREHENSION?

Lmao. I'm not "running away" by addressing your points - I'd be "running away" if I ignored them. Your shit-talking is almost as poor as your arguments.

Surely the irony shouldn't escape you. You do realize you do this exact thing of being a "condescending asshole" and explaining basic concepts to me at least once a week. You are in no position to try and claim I'm some type of aggressive asshole, when that's your entire style.

I am a total dick, yes. That has nothing to do with the point, though, which is that you, likewise, are a total dick.  

@BoD

One source from a card game, if I remember correctly (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Yes, it's only a singular source.

And point (B) supports my point. Augmentation or not, his actual skill can deteriorate, meaning he's not as good as he was.

How does it support your point? It doesn't matter whether Sidious has declined in technical skill, because he can still make up for it with augmentation, and he's clearly with Yoda and Mace overall, whereas Vader isn't.

It's largely irrelevant anyway, since Sidious didn't view saber fighting as a focus and more of a hobby. He wouldn't class himself as a duelist, for example.

I don't want to strawmann you here, so let me ask: are you arguing Sidious isn't a Lightsaber combatant, and therefore isn't included in the quote? Because if you are, that's blatantly false - he does engage in combat with a Lightsaber, ergo he's a Lightsaber combatant.

You're confusing ANH Vader with TFU 2 Vader.

What's the difference? I've seen the claim that ANH Vader is worse than TFU II Vader repeated constantly, but I've yet to see any actual proof.

I thought this was already generally accepted.

It probably is, I'm just clarifying what I'd argue.

this is why vader related debates on this site suck

Arcann

Good post Az. Vote for Arcann everybody! I will probably make a full post on him tonight.

Kueller

The lord of hunger wrote:this is why vader related debates on this site suck

Everytime there’s a Vader debate you always complain about Vader either being ”lowballed” or that ”Vader debates suck”. We get it, he may not be held as high we like him to. But now that’s where people have him now. There’s other characters that also gets lowballed here. Not only Vader. Seriously, it’s kinda getting annoying.

Set, The God of Chaos wrote:I wasn't referring to Yoda, no. However, Sidious is a different story - he has direct statements placing his saber abilities as on par with Yoda and Windu circa ROTJ, implying that either (A) he hasn't declined in skill, or (B) his augmentation has improved enough to the point where it compensates for any decrease in ability.

Mind providing those statements?

So at the end of the day I'm sticking firm to Gethzerion over kueller or SK.

Jedi_Jesus wrote:So at the end of the day I'm sticking firm to Gethzerion over kueller or SK.

a true brother

Nah SK murks Geth, what's her best feat? Ragdolling Luke? Lame, SK stomps

@Jedi_Jesus Arcann and Kueller are the only two left in the running now.

The Dark Apprentice wrote:Nah SK murks Geth, what's her best feat? Ragdolling Luke? Lame, SK stomps

SK should beat Vader in a fair fight, who is sub TPM Kenobi first, then maybe he can match mid tiers like B-Team before taking on BDSM Queens like Gethzerion.

Sas wrote:

Set, The God of Chaos wrote:I wasn't referring to Yoda, no. However, Sidious is a different story - he has direct statements placing his saber abilities as on par with Yoda and Windu circa ROTJ, implying that either (A) he hasn't declined in skill, or (B) his augmentation has improved enough to the point where it compensates for any decrease in ability.

Mind providing those statements?

Honestly, I didn't fully remember the exact wording of the statement, but it's better for my point than I expected. Sidious is just as skilled as Yoda and Mace, meaning he hadn't declined in technical skill since ROTS, and his ability to augment himself has only gone up - due to increased power.

Praxis wrote:@Jedi_Jesus Arcann and Kueller are the only two left in the running now.

Thats like saying you shouldn't vote third party when your options in an election are shit. 

Gethzerion wins

Changing my vote to Arcann after that excellent Kueller debunk as well as revisiting Arcann's material.

oooh, I wonder if I should debunk Geth, yes I will. Everyone hold your votes I'll make a quick case:


Geth used spells that Luke couldn't defend against because Luke was a force virgin. Her best feat was swirling some clouds. Comparing ROTJ Luke and 8 ABY Luke is possible yes, but considering everyone here holds Vader (at least Luke's equal) with TPM Kenobi or below, what kind of feat is that lol?

How can you respect ragdolling a TPM Kenobi tier? In contrast, Galen Marek fought the infinitely superior Shaak Ti on a nexus and overpowered her, this was before his mega growth. His foe Mariss Brood was noted by Insider to be "an equal match" with Asajj Ventress, and he grows far more powerful from there and casually beats Mariss. Further still, he makes Sidious scream in pain, and is able to tank Sheev's bolts for a limited time.

All of his basic TFU feats are beyond Geth ragdolling Luke. Then the clone comes out, who is born with his genetic templates powers and abilities and learns further from Darth Vader, he undergoes an emotional growth Arc and comes out stronger than before. For more information on why this version of Vader is superior to his OT self or at least separate, see the upcoming final SS I will make before entering retirement

Arcann

1. WHY MID-NOVEL KUELLER SCALES ABOVE DATHOMIR-AMPED GETHZERION 

To anyone who has read The New Rebellion, it is apparent that all mentions of Palpatine are of himself as of Return of the Jedi, not Dark Empire. In this section, I will be explaining why the events of the Dark Empire comic have been ignored in The New Rebellion book. 

Star Wars: The New Rebellion wrote:Kueller might succeed where the Emperor had not.

Kueller might be able to turn Luke Skywalker to the dark side. 

Kueller muses that he might succeed where the Emperor had not, turning Luke Skywalker to the dark side. This is a blatant contradiction of the events of Dark Empire, in which the Reborn Emperor successfully manages to turn Luke Skywalker to the dark side.








Some might argue that Sidious ultimately did fail in that his main goals were to keep Luke under his thrall as another Vader. This is a wrong interpretation because the quote says Palpatine specifically failed due to Luke not falling to the dark side, not due to Luke being redeemed.

Dark Empire Controveries - An OOU perspective

Even before the release of the prequel trilogy some contributors to the Expanded Universe made known publicly (and privately) that they were dissatisfied with the Dark Empire comics due to many pivotal events occurring within a single panel or entirely off-panel, and most importantly, with the decision to bring Palpatine back to life. Timothy Zahn was a proponent of this. In Vision of the Future, Timothy Zahn included a conversation that refers to the events of Dark Empire with Luke Skywalker mentioning "the resurrected Emperor" and Mara Jade retorting, "Whatever. Personally, I'm not convinced it was actually him," Implying that his dissatisfaction was being portrayed in the novels he was writing. And, during the writing of the Thrawn Trilogy, Zahn was asked to incorporate references and elements from Dark Empire into his books, since they were set chronologically later than the comic. Zahn outright refused, however, so Tom Veitch had to work around this issue, and Dark Empire was ultimately relocated to being set after the events of Zahn's books. Zahn was releasing his novels under the publishing company Bantam Spectra, the same company that Kristine Katheryn Rusch was publishing under, who is the author of The New Rebellion. While some authors included Dark Empire events in their book, like Zahn did above, they still reference him as "the reborn Emperor" or "the resurrected Emperor," not simply "the Emperor" as The New Rebellion has.

What does this all mean?

With all this in mind, we can extrapolate that since The New Rebellion doesn't make a single reference to the events of Dark Empire, and doesn't refer to Emperor Palpatine as "the resurrected Emperor" or "the reborn Emperor," we can conclude that all references to Palpatine simply referred to as "the Emperor" means this is the Emperor in his Return of the Jedi iteration.

-- -- --

Star Wars: The New Rebellion wrote:The presence had neared. It was strong in the dark side. He could feel the ripples, feel a power he hadn’t felt in a living being since he encountered the Emperor.

Back to this quote. Based from the evidence above, Luke hasn't felt a power in any living being since he encountered the Emperor," would refer to his Return of the Jedi iteration, thus putting him above notable living beings he's fought, including Dathomir-amped Gethzerion and Joruus C'baoth, both of whom have demonstrated a vast amount of power. 

Another thing, Luke didn't simply "encounter" Dark Empire Sidious. Luke fought him twice, and was under his tutelage for a bit, encountering him all the time in the process. To simply say Luke "encountered" the reborn Emperor is at the very least off-putting considering what we see in the Dark Empire comic. But if we conclude that "the Emperor" is being referred to his Return of the Jedi interation, then to say he "encountered" Sidious makes some sort of sense, as opposed to referring to his Dark Empire iteration.

2. RESPONDING TO AZRONGER'S OTHER CLAIMS

Azronger wrote:In chapter 29 of The New Rebellion, Leia muses that Kueller "had more Force capability than anyone she had encountered in years." Given the mention and exclusion of Exar Kun, this statement probably extends up to the Jedi Academy trilogy. However, there is no indication it includes Dark Empire since that is earlier in the timeline. Leia even notes Kueller expressly doesn’t have more power than Exar Kun’s spirit, and since Palpatine is canonically more powerful than Kun, this quote cannot mean Kueller is above DE Palpatine.

The events of Dark Empire are ignored based from the above, and thus Leia does not believe Kueller to have more power than Dark Empire Sidious. This we agree on. 

-- -- --

Azronger wrote:Luke notes Kueller’s power is unlike any "since he encountered the Emperor." One should be careful about the quote’s precise verbiage, however: he is not saying Kueller is as powerful as the Emperor, but that the Emperor possessed power that matched Kueller’s. There is a difference. The former expressly places the two as equals, whereas the latter contains the possibility that the Emperor is still greater than Kueller. Palpatine being able to match Kueller does not prevent him from exceeding Kueller also. It’s akin to saying “I haven’t felt a power like this since Darth Sidious” upon meeting Darth Maul - such a statement wouldn’t mean the two characters are equally strong.

This was an argument I haven't used since the unveiling of the Kueller Respect Thread, and admittedly, it was to see if it worked. I agree with you here, but this is not Kueller's claim to fame anyway. Kueller doesn't need to equal ROTJ Sheev to still be a powerhouse. 

-- -- --

Azronger wrote:In chapter 46 of The New Rebellion, Mara Jade notes that she hasn’t felt power like Kueller’s "since Palpatine in the early days." This statement uses the same diction as Luke’s statement above, meaning that it doesn’t signify Kueller’s power matches that of Palpatine’s, merely that Palpatine’s power, even "in the early days," matched Kueller’s.

It should also be noted that Mara has no idea how powerful the Emperor actually was. It’s stated he grew more powerful over time, yet Mara states no one except the Emperor "in the early days," was as powerful as Kueller, meaning that she must never have sensed how powerful the Emperor became after "the early days."

Since the creating of the Kueller Respect Thread, this argument has been dropped too. Mara's musings mean that due to the "Pydyrian death energies", Kueller's growth rate is nigh astronomical. Mara simply likens it to the most powerful being she's ever encountered, Darth Sidious. Mara knowing exactly how powerful Sidious is, is irrelevant, as the quotes only serve to prove Kueller has grown enormously, and is still growing, since his first encounter with Luke, not to make the comparison to Sidious. 

-- -- --

Azronger wrote:In chapter 29 of The New Rebellion, Leia muses that Kueller "appeared to have more power than she had. More power than Luke." The word “appear” merely denotes that something seems to be the case, not that it actually is, so this accolade is by no means definitive. 

Kueller's perceived power from Luke earlier in the novel, and Leia now, are in no way an inflated version of reality. Leia can perceive a beings power through the Force, as can any Force user. The word "appear" being used is merely to portray that Leia is sensing Kueller's power through the Force, his perceived power, and that he was not actually there for Leia to see for herself

-- -- --

Azronger wrote:Moreover, as discussed above, Mara believes a much more powerful Kueller to only be a fraction of ROTS Sidious’s strength, so it’s likely that how Kueller appeared to Leia was a grossly inflated version of reality.

The Mara perception argument only works if Mara at the time of receiving her planted vision of Vader and Luke killing the Emperor, has an accurate gauge of how much power Luke and Vader truly wielded. There is no evidence suggesting that Mara has an accurate perception of Vader or ROTJ Luke's power, so this argument is null. It's quite a large thing to gloss over when this entire conversation revolves around perceived power.

-- -- --

Azronger wrote:Also, in chapter 32, after Leia’s statement above, Luke and Kueller have their first fight. However, Luke was only operating at 10% of his power at most, which, considering that Darth Vader is 80% of Emperor Palpatine, is mind-bogglingly below his full strength. 

Luke's arbitrary percentage he coins himself in the heat of the moment and George Lucas' percentage system should not be compared/coincide at all. This was Luke right after his X-wing crash and right before his first duel with Kueller. 

Star Wars: The New Rebellion wrote:Slowly he limped his way down the stairs. He was stiff from the fall, his muscles aching with pain. The mistmakers had weakened his system; the burns and the fall had made him lose even more strength. If he was at ten percent of his normal power, he was high.


Size matters not, Yoda had told him.

He hoped that applied to strength as well.

-- -- --

Azronger wrote:Despite this, Luke "held his ground" and blocked many attacks from Kueller, only losing because his injured ankle caused him to lose his balance. All in all, the fight isn’t unlike most in either length or intensity; even if you believe Kueller was his superior, Luke was evidently competing well. This completely dismantles Leia’s impression of Kueller’s power; far from being beyond peak Luke, he is in reality around only 10% of Luke’s power.

This directly contradicts the numerous quotes that conclude that Kueller easily defeated this injured iteration of Luke.

The Essential Guide to Planets and Moons wrote:Kueller was unable to resist such a rich prize as a wounded Jedi Master. He traveled to Pydyr, where Skywalker recognized the skull-masked nightmare as Dolph, his former pupil. Skywalker tried to reach the core of goodness inside Kueller, but failed. The Almanian autocrat forced a lightsaber duel and easily defeated his hobbled opponent. 

And it was not Kueller's intentions to kill Luke right on the spot. 

Star Wars: The New Rebellion wrote:"I should kill you now," Kueller said.

Luke was breathing hard, but he felt no fear. He could call the lightsaber to him, and continue the battle, but somehow he knew that Kueller wasn't yet ready to kill him. 

[...]

"I should kill you," Kueller said again, "but I need you to lure your sister here."

From this, we can extrapolate that Kueller was holding back to some degree, due to not wanting to kill Luke on the spot, and still "easily defeating his hobbled opponent". Kueller is far beyond this injured iteration of Luke Skywalker, and is certainly not 10% of Luke's power, as you claim. There is absolutely no parity between these two.

-- -- --

Azronger wrote:Later on, Kueller and Luke have their second fight. Yes, it’s true that Kueller had grown more powerful since their last skirmish… but Kueller was literally only 10% of Luke’s full strength then. 

Kueller is far beyond an injured Luke Skywalker, as explained above. 

-- -- --

Azronger wrote:It is extremely unlikely Kueller could have bridged a 90% disparity in a matter of weeks when even a 20% disparity is equivalent to the gap between Vader and the Emperor. In the fight itself,

Again, Luke's arbitrary power level he gives himself and Lucas' percentage system should not be compared in the slightest. Even if the author of The New Rebellion believes this, it's impossible to know whether she worked with George Lucas' percentage system or not. And even then, this is an IU opinion, not an author one. 

-- -- --

Azronger wrote:Luke was still injured, meaning his power level is impossible to quantify in relation to his fresh self. 

While hard to quantify, we can gauge that this iteration of Luke is a fair bit beyond the one who first encounters Kueller. Luke beforehand was actively healing by "resting, regaining his strength as best he could" and "practicing Jedi exercises" for a couple weeks, in preparation for this exact fight that took place. 

It should also be noted that Luke receives a rage-amp akin to the same one that stomped Vader on the Death Star, that likely nullifies the injuries he still has from the X-wing crash. While some might say his rage was a hindrance, there is actually more evidence to the contrary. The fight after this point was likened to "Luke's battle with Vader," and Luke now fighting with a "sureness he has never felt before" This is in stark contrast to his saber "feeling odd in his hand" before receiving his amp. Furthermore, the duel after this point was likened to "Luke's battle with Vader," giving more plausible cause to the notion of Luke being amped. Before his rage-amp in RotJ, Luke was "well matched" and was "a battle of equals" for his Father, then when Luke received this same rage-amp, he went on to stomp Vader accordingly.

-- -- --

Azronger wrote:Kueller was also noted to be amplified by his rage, which is credited as the ultimate reason for his victory over Luke. Without the rage amp, however, it is stated he would not have been a match for even Leia.

Kueller's rage was not specific to Luke or Leia. Although he does hate Luke for being a Jedi (like anyone else), his built up rage stems from his deep down hatred of the Je'har regime that brutally murdered his parents, and being a natural proponent of the dark side. This rage is not specific to Luke himself, meaning the rage used on Luke is applicable to this thread, just like many of the dark-siders ranked already. 

CONCLUSION

Kueller deserves all the hype he gets. During the middle of the novel, Kueller is far beyond the injured Luke he faces. At Kueller's most powerful, "the aura of power around him so great that it made him seem invincible" in the eyes of Luke. Kueller's power was so immense at this point, Luke seemingly gives up and tries to an-hero in a similar fashion to Obi-Wan, but is only saved via an unconventional tactic that has nothing to do with superiority. 

Set said:  The quote calling Darth Vader "the embodiment of all evil", and stating that "you can be sure to find" him "behind every dark occurrence in the galaxy", isn't hyperbole? 




Considering Lucas used such verbiage as a literal description of Sidious, and considering that canon Vader > Sidious, I have to say it is NOT  hyperbole.


Vader is simply just that bad ass.