Kueller vs Yoda

Peak versions

Who wins?

Kueller destroys. I'll tread through this topic in my RT coming out very soon.

might need a more focused case like the one EC is doing to think kueller is more powerful than the grand master 

so for now yoda

Yoda loses due to ketamine withdrawal

Kueller stomps.

Yoda.

@BoD: How so? Expect a drawn out debate from my side.

Yes, drawn-out debate on your side, but you can't even respond to me in that Joruus vs SK thread. Thanks!

NotAA3 wrote:Yes, drawn-out debate on your side, but you can't even respond to me in that Joruus vs SK thread. Thanks!

Pot meet kettle?

EmperorCaedus wrote:@BoD: How so? Expect a drawn out debate from my side.

Sorry, have notification disabled. 

Yoda has better lightsaber feats than matching an emotionally hindered Luke. Likewise, he's an exact equal of ROTS Sidious, who I've yet to see evidence is below the emotionally retarded Luke Kueller was stronger than.

ILS wrote:

NotAA3 wrote:Yes, drawn-out debate on your side, but you can't even respond to me in that Joruus vs SK thread. Thanks!

Pot meet kettle?

My post would take like 5 minutes to respond to, yet he's going and having drawn out debates in other threads. Your post is considerably longer, and I have been working on a response, but I do like to engage in other debates while I do so. His actions in this thread are basically a sign he's ignoring me, in contrast, I'm not ignoring you, shit is just coming slowly.

yoda solidly

BoD wrote:

EmperorCaedus wrote:@BoD: How so? Expect a drawn out debate from my side.

Sorry, have notification disabled. 

Yoda has better lightsaber feats than matching an emotionally hindered Luke.

Let's get a couple things straight here. Luke is by no means "emotionally hindered" and quite frankly I don't know how you came out of reading my RT thinking this. "like a man possessed" and with a "sureness he has never felt before" indicating he is rage-amped in a similar way as in RotJ. Secondly, Kueller in no way simply "matches" Luke. After Luke receives his rage-amp, Kueller is still seen as “invincible,” and Luke begins to “stagger” under his empowered blows. After this, "Kueller had him cornered. There was no place to go. Luke was trapped, both inside, and out." 

Likewise, he's an exact equal of ROTS Sidious,

Kueller scales above this significantly by the virtue of being compared to Sheev numerous times. Kueller's power is "a power he hadn’t felt in a living being since he encountered the Emperor". By RotJ, Vader describes Sidious as "omniscient" and "no longer dared to entertain thoughts of rebellion, not when the Emperor seemed more powerful than ever before." So by all means he scales significantly above his RotS iteration. 

who I've yet to see evidence is below the emotionally retarded Luke Kueller was stronger than.

Mid-DE Luke fights Sheev on a massive dark side nexus in Byss, where Palpatine is described as "invincible" Luke still put up a great fight to the new clone Sheev. Not to mention Sheev even after the duel proclaims Luke as his "greatest adversary", effectively scaling Mid-DE Luke above both Mace Windu and Yoda. Then Luke goes on to fight Sheev again, where in their duel Luke is "too strong" for Sheev and disarms him. Luke's powers are then "redoubled" in JA, and in BFC Luke exclaims "The stronger you become in the Force, the more that you can do, the more that's expected of you" indicating he is stronger than before. And on top of all of this, Luke's rage-amp would boost him significantly in a similar way against Vader. And even this isn't enough.

Note that you can read my RT on Kueller here, because most of what I've mentioned is mentioned there, lol

NotAA3 wrote:

ILS wrote:

NotAA3 wrote:Yes, drawn-out debate on your side, but you can't even respond to me in that Joruus vs SK thread. Thanks!

Pot meet kettle?

My post would take like 5 minutes to respond to, yet he's going and having drawn out debates in other threads. Your post is considerably longer, and I have been working on a response, but I do like to engage in other debates while I do so. His actions in this thread are basically a sign he's ignoring me, in contrast, I'm not ignoring you, shit is just coming slowly.

Aight bruv. Remember you've got our first exchange to address and then afterwards this:

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t2827p25-darth-krayt-reborn-vs-vaylin-unchained#53457

Gotta make sure you're doing your homework even if school is cancelled. 

@ILS

Aight bruv. Remember you've got our first exchange to address and then afterwards this:

Sure.

Gotta make sure you're doing your homework even if school is cancelled.

Well, I've moved on to studying next year's course, so I'm better prepared for it. Although, I do admittedly have greater amounts of time, so you should expect a response soon.

Let's get a couple things straight here. Luke is by no means "emotionally hindered" and quite frankly I don't know how you came out of reading my RT thinking this. "like a man possessed" and with a "sureness he has never felt before" indicating he is rage-amped in a similar way as in RotJ. Secondly, Kueller in no way simply "matches" Luke. After Luke receives his rage-amp, Kueller is still seen as “invincible,” and Luke begins to “stagger” under his empowered blows. After this, "Kueller had him cornered. There was no place to go. Luke was trapped, both inside, and out." 

"I've fought better than you, Kueller," Luke said. The lightsaber felt odd in his hand. "And won."


-


Kueller had pushed Luke far enough that Luke's feelings were confused. He wasn't certain if he was going after Kueller out of anger or hatred, instead of in defense. That would only make Kueller stronger.


-

He was alone with this thing he had created. The rogue student. The Vader to his Ben.

Vader.

Ben.


-


Luke was making him stronger. Luke's response, his hatred, his own self-loathing at creating this thing, this student who had become a horror, was making the thing even stronger.

Kueller slammed his blade against Luke's, and the sparks lit the area all around them. Luke parried. Parried again. And again. He was trapped in a cycle of hatred and anger. If he fought, Kueller got stronger, and if he attacked, Kueller got stronger still.

Luke is fighting his anger and hatred, battling self-loathing, doubting himself, and trying to beat Kueller at the same time. Kinda the definition of "emotionally hindered."

Kueller scales above this significantly by the virtue of being compared to Sheev numerous times. Kueller's power is "a power he hadn’t felt in a living being since he encountered the Emperor".

He's compared to Sidious by virtue of being the strongest DS presence he's felt since Sidious:

The presence had neared. It was strong in the dark side. He could feel the ripples, feel a power he hadn’t felt in a living being since he encountered the Emperor. 

He makes a similar comparison about other beings like Exar Kun:

Specters of the Past wrote:There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing.

He's saying "wow, this guy is stronger than anyone I've faced since Palpatine." It automatically excludes Sidious from the comparison. 

By RotJ, Vader describes Sidious as "omniscient" and "no longer dared to entertain thoughts of rebellion, not when the Emperor seemed more powerful than ever before."

Contradicted by G-Canon. 

So by all means he scales significantly above his RotS iteration. 

Yet to see that proven. 

BoD wrote:

"I've fought better than you, Kueller," Luke said. The lightsaber felt odd in his hand. "And won."


-


Kueller had pushed Luke far enough that Luke's feelings were confused. He wasn't certain if he was going after Kueller out of anger or hatred, instead of in defense. That would only make Kueller stronger.


-

He was alone with this thing he had created. The rogue student. The Vader to his Ben.

Vader.

Ben.


-


Luke was making him stronger. Luke's response, his hatred, his own self-loathing at creating this thing, this student who had become a horror, was making the thing even stronger.

Kueller slammed his blade against Luke's, and the sparks lit the area all around them. Luke parried. Parried again. And again. He was trapped in a cycle of hatred and anger. If he fought, Kueller got stronger, and if he attacked, Kueller got stronger still.

This is not at all what happens, you pretty much just cherry picked the instances that he seems hindered. The top 2 underlined are Luke's feelings being confused were because he wasn't originally fighting Kueller out of complete anger at that point, which wasn't the original contention to begin with. Right after this point, Luke's "anger flowed through, deep and fine and rich". And when his lightsaber once "felt odd in his hand" now "moved with a sureness Luke had never felt before", when giving fully into his rage. Yes it was a cycle of hatred and anger, as Luke is rage-amped, Kueller also grows stronger at a faster rate, which is literally explained in the next sentence. Next time, try not to scroll through and cherry pick the instances that he seems hindered upon glance.

Luke is fighting his anger and hatred, battling self-loathing, doubting himself, and trying to beat Kueller at the same time. Kinda the definition of "emotionally hindered."

No, Luke is using his anger and hatred, to amp himself. At no point does Luke "doubt himself" at all when fighting Kueller, it's literally stated he has "a sureness Luke had never felt before", indicating he is no longer holding back at this point. You've reached that conclusion because... presumably because you are still arguing Luke's rage is still a hindrance, but rest assured, He is sure about what he is doing.

The fight can go like this: Luke is confused at first, but this confusedness subsides when he fully gives into his anger that "flowed through, deep and fine and rich" and gave him "a sureness Luke had never felt before", but Kueller was simultaneously able to feed on Luke's rage, thus permanently amping himself higher and higher until Luke begins to “stagger” under his empowered blows.

Kueller scales above this significantly by the virtue of being compared to Sheev numerous times. Kueller's power is "a power he hadn’t felt in a living being since he encountered the Emperor". 

He's compared to Sidious by virtue of being the strongest DS presence he's felt since Sidious:

The presence had neared. It was strong in the dark side. He could feel the ripples, feel a power he hadn’t felt in a living being since he encountered the Emperor. 

He makes a similar comparison about other beings like Exar Kun:

Specters of the Past wrote:There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing.

He's saying "wow, this guy is stronger than anyone I've faced since Palpatine." It automatically excludes Sidious from the comparison. 

Luke is saying Kueller is stronger than anyone -- now we have Kueller being > every living being Luke has faced. Then it says "except Sidious" meaning that Luke specifically notes Palpatine's power to be something to draw comparison from when regarding what he is feeling of Kueller's power, and when concerning all of the other characters Luke has fought previously (Joruus C'baoth and Gethzerion included). Also, note I never said anything definitive other than Kueller being in the ballpark of Sheev, your rebuttal would be acceptable if I claimed Kueller is > or even ~ Sheev, but I didn't. 

By RotJ, Vader describes Sidious as "omniscient" and "no longer dared to entertain thoughts of rebellion, not when the Emperor seemed more powerful than ever before." 

Contradicted by G-Canon. 

Those G-Canon sources are? If the contention is "Vader no longer dared to entertain thoughts of rebellion" note this isn't the main point at all, and only servers to emphasize Sheev's growth in 6 months, which is not the point contradicted by G-Canon. Thus, Kueller is comparable to Sheev's omniscience and growth, which are not contradicted by G-Canon.

So by all means he scales significantly above his RotS iteration. 

Yet to see that proven. 

Mid-Novel Kueller (before the shit ton of growth) being in the general ballpark of Sheev's omniscience and heightened powers compared to his RotS iteration pits him far above what Yoda could ever hope to do.