Kyp Durron vs Kueller

All out, no prior knowledge, Kueller at the time of his death, Kyp around the same time period. The battle takes place in the ruins of Jedi Enclave on Dantooine.

Kueller stomps

Kueller one shots.

I’ll go with the guy whose power made him seem ‘invincible’ next to a rage-possessed 17 ABY Luke Skywalker.

KUELLER.

Kueller stomps.

Kyp Wins this one.

@IG Based on?

EmperorCaedus wrote:@IG Based on?

Comparing to Early NJO Luke and then growing from there on out.

Depending on the iteration of Kyp, it's well established that Kyp can't draw on the power he once wielded.

When I was still a teenager, I was able to reach into the gravity well of a gas giant and pull a spacecraft out of it. That's something that not many Masters could accomplish. I could do it because I was strong in the Force ... and because I had absolute faith in my right, my need to use that craft for a specific purpose. But I doubt I could do it today. I'm no weaker in the Force, and I'm a lot more skilled... but today I'd know that my intended purpose was not a good one, and this knowledge would deny me the focus I needed then to perform that task. So was I a Master then, or am I a Master now?"

So even if he was compared to Early NJO Luke, (which you didn't go into further detail) he'd still be post-prime, and is comparable to the likes of Kyle and Viun.

EmperorCaedus wrote:Depending on the iteration of Kyp, it's well established that Kyp can't draw on the power he once wielded.

When I was still a teenager, I was able to reach into the gravity well of a gas giant and pull a spacecraft out of it. That's something that not many Masters could accomplish. I could do it because I was strong in the Force ... and because I had absolute faith in my right, my need to use that craft for a specific purpose. But I doubt I could do it today. I'm no weaker in the Force, and I'm a lot more skilled... but today I'd know that my intended purpose was not a good one, and this knowledge would deny me the focus I needed then to perform that task. So was I a Master then, or am I a Master now?"

So even if he was compared to Early NJO Luke, (which you didn't go into further detail) he'd still be post-prime, and is comparable to the likes of Kyle and Viun.

Have you read the novels? He never regresses. Like he outright says "I'm no weaker in the Force". It's the purpose for which he's doing it that prompts him not to hold back. 

And Kyp isn't comparable in the force to Kyle and Gaalan, only as a technical duelist.

Have you read the novels? He never regresses. Like he outright says "I'm no weaker in the Force". It's the purpose for which he's doing it that prompts him not to hold back. 

I never said he regressed in in the Force, I said that he can't draw on the power he once wielded. Either way, this translates to being exceptionally weaker than his former self. 

And Kyp isn't comparable in the force to Kyle and Gaalan, only as a technical duelist.

Kyp is compared to Kyle and Gaalan in overall combative viability, not technical dueling. 

He was good; Luke gave him that. He might have been a match for an expert swordsmaster such as Kyp or Kyle Katarn. 

Gaalan being a match for an expert swordsmaster such as Kyp or Kyle does not mean that Gaalan is a match for Kyp or Kyle in only technical skill, because being a match for someone takes into account Force capablities as well. Being a swordsmaster doesn't mean that a "match" is just referencing pure technical skill. The context of this was mid-fight between Luke and Gaalan. It wouldn't make much sense for Luke to say "Wow, this guy is good! He is definitely a match for expert swordsmasters such as Kyp and Kyle... but only in technical skill though. In the Force, Kyp crushes!" Matches take into account one's entire skill set, including dueling, aug, and Force usage... not just technical skill.

On top of this, you haven't explained why Kyp is favorable against Kueller, who scales above BFC!Luke.

In the full context of the quote, they're trying to dissuade the government from turning Jacen into a Jedi Master. Luke says it's not a lack of power or skill, but rather a lack of mastery and emotions. Kyp then lies because they somehow overheard his private talks and basically states that although he's no weaker, his Jedi understanding would disallow him to retrieve a weapon to specifically kill star systems and murder his own brother accidentally. That Jacen lacks that inner voice that comes with a true emotional maturity that would stop him from doing rash moves and decisions. Basically saying that Kyp has a limitation on his Jedi powers that keep him from ever doing bad again, that makes him a true paragon of the Force, and he's explaining why that's different from power or skill.

It's not that he can't fully wield his power and is therefore out of his prime, it's that he can't use his powers for bad anymore. It's a built-in failsafe that Jacen lacks... which was proven correct.

Exile:

That's assuming we even believe Kyp in the first place. He's basically portraying a Jedi Master as infallible which we know they're not. But it doesn't matter, it's not a ceiling on his power.


If we ignore the context of how he accomplished the initial feat like Kyp does, then he's basically saying he's no less powerful than Kyp on the Yavin focusing pyramids and getting amped by Kun. He then is powerful enough to rip a ship out of the gravity of a gas giant's core - which is absolutely immense forces that nothing in the Republic could enter - from hundreds of thousands of miles away. The only thing stopping him is the understanding that he's going to use it to murder millions of the remnants of the Empire, not actual power.

The only thing that changes with the real context, is that he would lack the focus to drive a ship out of a gas giant's core that he was going to use to immediately exterminate the Empire with. He would still be putting himself no less powerful than a severely amped younger Kyp (and vastly more skilled), just that he couldn't focus on driving it out due to his Darkside purposes.

Dark Apprentice wrote:Size matters not, Master Skywalker had repeated. Kyp engulfed the Sun Crusher with his mind, surrounding it, touching it with his limitless, invisible hands. He thought about heaving it back up, dragging the Sun Crusher out of the depths of Yavin. But he discarded that thought.

Instead, with the assistance of Exar Kun, he used his innate skill to power up the controls again, to move control levers, push buttons to alter the course stored in the Sun Crusher's memory, bringing it out of its entombment.

Kyp continued to watch the weapon's progress, focusing on the sphere of the enormous planet as it crested the misty treetops. The Sun Crusher appeared as a silvery dot, seeming no larger than an atom as it emerged from the highest cloud layers and streaked across space toward the emerald-green moon where Kyp waited.

He stared upward and waited, opening his arms to receive the indestructible weapon.

The Sun Crusher approached like a long, sharp thorn of crystalline alloy, cruising upright on its long axis. The toroidal resonance-torpedo launcher hung at the bottom of the long hook. It looked beautiful.

The Sun Crusher descended through the jungle moon's atmosphere, straight down--like a spike to impale the Great Temple. Kyp controlled it, slowed its descent, until the superweapon hovered to a stop, suspended in front of him.

As the sky brightened with planetrise, the alloy hull of the Sun Crusher seemed as pristine as a firefacet gem, scoured of all oxidation and debris by the intense temperatures and pressures at the core of Yavin. The Sun Crusher looked clean, and deadly, and ready for him.

"Thank you, Exar Kun," Kyp whispered.

He's powerful enough to do it still, but his conscious would stop him from moving levers to drive the ship out and destroy stars. Is that really a limitation on his powers in the heat of battle when the original feat was tied to his innate skill; of which he far surpasses?

Unless Kyp has to retrieve super weapons to murder stars, then I don't see why this quote is being used to kneecap later Kyps. If anything all it does is give him all his amped feats besides a refusal to use the Darkside.

Kueller got nothing on Kyp Durron. Not a fair match up imo.

Theron Shan wrote:Kueller got nothing on Kyp Durron. Not a fair match up imo.

Whatever tickles your pickle

Unsure, solid match-up. Might lean ever-so-slightly toward Kyp on account of experience & likely greater mastery over his abilities.