★ Top Fifteen Tournament #15 - Kueller

Anyone making an argument for Soa?

Soa is banned from the tournament.

MasterCilghal wrote:Soa is banned from the tournament.

Sad

k

On a more serious note, voting Kueller.

Changing my vote to Chethzerion

Kueller.

[hideedit]

Goat finally recognizes EC as the leader of NJO brigade

HellfireUnit wrote:Goat finally recognizes EC as the leader of NJO brigade

No, he recognizes Kueller as Power.

KUELLER AND ARCANN ARE IN THE RUNNING FOR #15.

All votes for Kueller (7) and Arcann (6) will stay. Anyone who hasn't voted or voted for another may choose between the two. Voting ends in 96 hours.

Spoiler:

PLEASE CHANGE YOUR VOTE:
@CuckedCurry
@Jake
@Meatpants
@MasterCilghal
@Nute_Chethray
@HellfireUnit
@Jedi_Jesus
@Azronger
@Trayus Marauder
@Blade_of_Dorin
@The Dark Apprentice
@Deronn_Solo

Arcann

Come on boys, Starkiller. Starkiller is a powerhouse of the force and he's "with the top tier" he has "no limits" according to his creator and has potential to be > than the emperor.

KUELLER

Crap, forgot Starkiller had Luke+ potential. Can we start over?

EmperorDolph wrote:

EC, you can try and make Zurg as badass looking as possible, but at the end of the day...he's just not.

It's meant to be comical, as if his hands were holding up a sign.

Also, while I upvoted your comment, BoD, even if Starkiller did have hype potential like that, it was never realized, which we can infer based on the statements that Vader was the 2nd-most powerful person in the galaxy and that in TFU II he was toying with Starkiller.

I. KUELLER DOES NOT SCALE TO EMPEROR PALPATINE

Star Wars: The New Rebellion wrote:She wished she had the same certainty. This Kueller had more Force capability than anyone she had encountered in years. Except Exar Kun, and he had been a spirit. Kueller was alive. He was using these deaths to replenish his own well of hatred. The dark side ate people from within, but while it did so, it gave them much too much power.

He appeared to have more power than she had. More power than Luke.

In chapter 29 of The New Rebellion, Leia muses that Kueller "had more Force capability than anyone she had encountered in years." Given the mention and exclusion of Exar Kun, this statement probably extends up to the Jedi Academy trilogy. However, there is no indication it includes Dark Empire since that is earlier in the timeline. Leia even notes Kueller expressly doesn’t have more power than Exar Kun’s spirit, and since Palpatine is canonically more powerful than Kun, this quote cannot mean Kueller is above DE Palpatine.



-- -- --

Star Wars: The New Rebellion wrote:The presence had neared. It was strong in the dark side. He could feel the ripples, feel a power he hadn’t felt in a living being since he encountered the Emperor.

Luke notes Kueller’s power is unlike any "since he encountered the Emperor." One should be careful about the quote’s precise verbiage, however: he is not saying Kueller is as powerful as the Emperor, but that the Emperor possessed power that matched Kueller’s. There is a difference. The former expressly places the two as equals, whereas the latter contains the possibility that the Emperor is still greater than Kueller. Palpatine being able to match Kueller does not prevent him from exceeding Kueller also. It’s akin to saying “I haven’t felt a power like this since Darth Sidious” upon meeting Darth Maul - such a statement wouldn’t mean the two characters are equally strong.

-- -- --

Star Wars: The New Rebellion wrote:She raised her head. She was stunning, he had to give her that, with her bright green eyes, and red, almost auburn, hair. A woman to respect. A woman that no one ever should tamper with. “I haven’t felt power like this since Palpatine in the early days. If this continues, Han, Kueller will be stronger than the Emperor ever was, and he’ll do it quicker.

In chapter 46 of The New Rebellion, Mara Jade notes that she hasn’t felt power like Kueller’s "since Palpatine in the early days." This statement uses the same diction as Luke’s statement above, meaning that it doesn’t signify Kueller’s power matches that of Palpatine’s, merely that Palpatine’s power, even "in the early days," matched Kueller’s.

It should also be noted that Mara has no idea how powerful the Emperor actually was. It’s stated he grew more powerful over time, yet Mara states no one except the Emperor "in the early days," was as powerful as Kueller, meaning that she must never have sensed how powerful the Emperor became after "the early days."







If the Emperor never revealed his full potency to Mara later on, then it calls into question whether he ever did. In fact, upon his dying moments, he implanted a vision in her head of Luke and Vader overpowering and killing him, and she fully believed the vision. This indicates she considers the Emperor’s power to be below the combined might of Luke and Vader. I know many here take George Lucas’s commentary to mean TPM Kenobi and TPM Maul are above ROTJ Vader and Luke, and even those who don’t tend to have Vader around TCW Maul and Dooku based on another quote from Lucas. Given the beatdown Sidious gave to Maul and Savage Opress, it should be apparent that Mara’s impression of the Emperor’s strength is nowhere near his actual power level.

Mara’s perception:

Star Wars: Dark Force Rising wrote:He stood before her, his face half hidden by the cowl of his robe, his yellow eyes piercingly bright as they gazed across the infinite distance between them. His lips moved, but his words were drowned out by the throaty hooting of alarms all around them, filling Mara with an urgency that was rapidly edging into panic. Between her and the Emperor two figures appeared: the dark, imposing image of Darth Vader, and the smaller black-clad figure of Luke Skywalker. They stood before the Emperor, facing each other, and ignited their lightsabers. The blades crossed, brilliant red-white against brilliant green-white, and they prepared for battle.

And then, without warning, the blades disengaged... and with twin roars of hatred audible even over the alarms, both turned and strode toward the Emperor.

Mara heard herself cry out as she struggled to rush to her master's aid. But the distance was too great, her body too sluggish. She screamed a challenge, trying to at least distract them. But neither Vader nor Skywalker seemed to hear her. They moved outward to flank the Emperor… and as they lifted their lightsabers high, she saw that the Emperor was gazing at her.

She looked back at him, wanting desperately to turn away from the coming disaster but unable to move. A thousand thoughts and emotions flooded in through that gaze, a glittering kaleidoscope of pain and fear and rage that spun far too fast for her to really absorb. The Emperor raised his hands, sending cascades of jagged blue-white lightning at his enemies. Both men staggered under the counterattack, and Mara watched with the sudden agonized hope that this time it might end differently. But no. Vader and Skywalker straightened; and with another roar of rage, they lifted their lightsabers high-

YOU WILL KILL LUKE SKYWALKER!

Reality:



This also serves as a counter to the very first quote from Leia. Mara believes Kueller’s power even toward the end of the novel is only a fraction of ROTS Sidious’s, so Leia most likely was not including DE Sidious in the number of people whose Force capability is lesser than Kueller’s. Even if she were, it would by no means be definitive since Mara contradicts her later on.

II. MID-NOVEL KUELLER DOES NOT SCALE ABOVE GETHZERION OR JORUUS C’BAOTH

Star Wars: The New Rebellion wrote:The presence had neared. It was strong in the dark side. He could feel the ripples, feel a power he hadn’t felt in a living being since he encountered the Emperor.

Returning to this quote, it has been misconstrued as referring to the Emperor as of Return of the Jedi, but this is a logical impossibility. If this were ROTJ Palpatine, it would mean no being Luke had met until Kueller had emitted as much power as ROTJ Palpatine, including DE Palpatine. In effect, the interpretation that it refers to ROTJ Palpatine forces the scaling chain of ROTJ Palpatine >/= Kueller > DE Palpatine, which the lore contradicts. DE Palpatine > ROTJ Palpatine is one of the most often-repeated stances in the whole mythos:













Therefore, the only interpretation is that Luke is referencing DE Palpatine. As such, the quote does not place Kueller above Gethzerion or Joruus C’baoth as Luke encountered them before the Reborn Emperor. The accolade only encompasses beings in between Dark Empire and The New Rebellion.

III. KUELLER DOES NOT SCALE TO NEW REPUBLIC ERA LUKE SKYWALKER

Star Wars: The New Rebellion wrote:She wished she had the same certainty. This Kueller had more Force capability than anyone she had encountered in years. Except Exar Kun, and he had been a spirit. Kueller was alive. He was using these deaths to replenish his own well of hatred. The dark side ate people from within, but while it did so, it gave them much too much power.

He appeared to have more power than she had. More power than Luke.

In chapter 29 of The New Rebellion, Leia muses that Kueller "appeared to have more power than she had. More power than Luke." The word “appear” merely denotes that something seems to be the case, not that it actually is, so this accolade is by no means definitive. Moreover, as discussed above, Mara believes a much more powerful Kueller to only be a fraction of ROTS Sidious’s strength, so it’s likely that how Kueller appeared to Leia was a grossly inflated version of reality.

Also, in chapter 32, after Leia’s statement above, Luke and Kueller have their first fight. However, Luke was only operating at 10% of his power at most, which, considering that Darth Vader is 80% of Emperor Palpatine, is mind-bogglingly below his full strength. Despite this, Luke "held his ground" and blocked many attacks from Kueller, only losing because his injured ankle caused him to lose his balance. All in all, the fight isn’t unlike most in either length or intensity; even if you believe Kueller was his superior, Luke was evidently competing well. This completely dismantles Leia’s impression of Kueller’s power; far from being beyond peak Luke, he is in reality around only 10% of Luke’s power.

Star Wars: The New Rebellion wrote:Slowly he limped his way down the stairs. He was stiff from the fall, his muscles aching with pain. The mistmakers had weakened his system; the burns and the fall had made him lose even more strength. If he was at ten percent of his normal power, he was high.

Star Wars: The New Rebellion wrote:Slowly Kueller drew his lightsaber, the hiss filling the street. Its blade burned blue.

“I don’t want to fight you, Dolph,” Luke said.

“You won’t be fighting Dolph,” Kueller replied. He slashed at Luke. In one quick movement, Luke grabbed his lightsaber and blocked Kueller’s swipe with his own blade. The electric clang of the sabers filled the air, sending sparks all around them. Each movement ripped at Luke’s back, but he focused on the blade instead: parrying, defending, blocking, never really attacking. He would wait until Kueller was open before making his move.

Kueller hit at Luke’s left, then his right, then his heart. But Luke kept blocking. Kueller pushed Luke backward, toward the house. Luke stumbled on his weak leg, and collapsed on the knee. A river of pain ran through his thigh. Kueller brought his lightsaber down onto Luke’s shoulder, but Luke rolled away from it, his back burning as dirt from the road ground into his wounds.

He pushed himself up and swiped at Kueller, singeing his cape. The hum of lightsabers filled the air. Sweat ran down Luke’s face. His strength was gone. He had gone through too much in the last few days. But he concentrated on Kueller’s movements, lived for Kueller’s movements, blocked them, anticipated them, and held his ground.

In a series of five rapid thrusts, Kueller moved Luke backward again. Luke parried, parried, parried, but couldn’t keep his balance. His ankle was clearly broken and unable to support him. Kueller jabbed at Luke’s left side. Luke swiveled to dodge, and Kueller jabbed again. Luke’s ankle buckled, but he didn’t fall. Kueller pushed closer, and knocked Luke’s lightsaber from his hand.

Kueller held his blue blade beneath Luke’s chin. Luke could feel its heat, smell its electric tang.

Later on, Kueller and Luke have their second fight. Yes, it’s true that Kueller had grown more powerful since their last skirmish… but Kueller was literally only 10% of Luke’s full strength then. It is extremely unlikely Kueller could have bridged a 90% disparity in a matter of weeks when even a 20% disparity is equivalent to the gap between Vader and the Emperor. In the fight itself, Luke was still injured, meaning his power level is impossible to quantify in relation to his fresh self. Kueller was also noted to be amplified by his rage, which is credited as the ultimate reason for his victory over Luke. Without the rage amp, however, it is stated he would not have been a match for even Leia.

CONCLUSION

Kueller is massively overhyped. During the middle of the novel, Kueller was only around 10% of 17 ABY Luke’s power; later on, Mara Jade believes a fraction of ROTS Sidious’s strength is equivalent to Kueller’s power; and even at his most powerful, Kueller is objectively said to not be a match for even Leia of all people without a rage boost.

@Geistalt

Also, while I upvoted your comment, BoD, even if Starkiller did have hype potential like that, it was never realized, which we can infer based on the statements that Vader was the 2nd-most powerful person in the galaxy

Vader doesn't have any statements saying he's the second most powerful man in the galaxy circa TFU II, they're all as of ANH. And unfortunately for Vader fans, whether Starkiller was still alive by ANH is ambiguous.

and that in TFU II he was toying with Starkiller

This is contradicted by both the script and the novelization for TFU II. The only backing for such an argument is Witwer's statements on potential plans for TFU 3, but they never made it past the early concepts stage. So, it's essentially, what might have happened in a game that was never made vs the set in stone intent for a game that was made. I'm sure you'll understand why I'd take the latter every single time.

Set, The God of Chaos wrote:@Geistalt

Also, while I upvoted your comment, BoD, even if Starkiller did have hype potential like that, it was never realized, which we can infer based on the statements that Vader was the 2nd-most powerful person in the galaxy

Vader doesn't have any statements saying he's the most powerful man in the galaxy circa TFU II, they're all as of ANH. And unfortunately for Vader fans, whether Starkiller was still alive by ANH is ambiguous.

I'll step in on this point and this point only, the prima guide does say that: "He's an unparalleled lightsaber combatant and an even more capable Force wielder."

Reminder of what "unparalleled" means:

Cambridge wrote:having no equal; better or greater than any other

Webster wrote:having no parallel especially : having no equal or match : unique in kind or quality.

Google wrote:having no parallel or equal; exceptional

Whether you agree with the quote or not, that is what the official Prima says. It also doesn't refer to a time period and unless you take it outside of TFU 2 (which would be including the emperor) it must just refer to that game. It's consistent with Vader "rendering most of your attacks useless" and being "too powerful" proceeding to "toss you like a ragdoll."

I've said before my stance on Vader vs SK is still being worked out since the 3rd game never happened and allusions made in the text consistently force me to readopt different opinions. The thing is though, this isn't my stance or my argument, this is me explaining the English language.

@The Dark Apprentice

I'll step in on this point and this point only, the prima guide does say that: "He's an unparalleled lightsaber combatant and an even more capable Force wielder."

Reminder of what "unparalleled" means:

(insert defintions)

READING COMPREHENSION.

Me: "Vader doesn't have any statements saying he's the second most powerful man in the galaxy circa TFU II, they're all as of ANH."

You: "the prima guide does say that: 'He's an unparalleled lightsaber combatant and an even more capable Force wielder.'"

Thanks, ISV! My comments were on Force Power, not Lightsaber combat, so your point is irrelevant. That aside, "unparalleled" is clear hyperbole given that Vader demonstrably does have equals and superiors in sabers within the lore.

Whether you agree with the quote or not, that is what the official Prima says.

Yes, it's what the Prima Guide says, but it's inconsequential to my point.

It also doesn't refer to a time period and unless you take it outside of TFU 2 (which would be including the emperor) it must just refer to that game.

Why would a general summary about Vader's skill and abilities be limiting itself to TFU 2 only? Just because it doesn't reference a time period does not mean it's solely referring to the game - you've provided no justification for such.

It's consistent with Vader "rendering most of your attacks useless" and being "too powerful" proceeding to "toss you like a ragdoll."

Bold: Vader negating the majority of attacks launched against him by an exhausted Starkiller does not prove superiority to Peak Starkiller in any way.

Underlined: Vader capitalising on an opening from a Starkiller who was both exhausted hindered by rage once again does not prove superiority to Peak Starkiller.

I've said before my stance on Vader vs SK is still being worked out since the 3rd game never happened and allusions made in the text consistently force me to readopt different opinions. The thing is though, this isn't my stance or my argument, this is me explaining the English language.

This is you being a condescending asshole by offering me the definition of "unparalleled" like I don't know what it means, and failing to even pay the slightest bit of attention to the point I made, yes.

[size=34]Thanks, ISV! My comments were on Force Power, not Lightsaber combat, so your point is irrelevant. That aside, [/size][size=31]"unparalleled"[/size][size=34] is clear hyperbole given that Vader demonstrably does have equals and superiors in sabers within the lore.[/size]

My turn to step in, here. If by superiors you're referring to Yoda and Sidious, neither have continued to use lightsabers at this point. Sidious makes use of his about once post ROTS, and it's to toy with a few Jedi knights and padawans. Likewise, Yoda has almost completely abandoned lightsaber combat.

Krayt is not included in the quote since from an in-universe standpoint, he's dead as far as anyone is aware. The only character you can make a case for is Obi-Wan, and that's debatable.

I also think (though I don't necessarily agree) that the point ISV is making and you've ignored in your indignation is that Vader's skills are described as unparalleled, yet even his saber skills aren't as capable as his Force abilities. While I think it's unquantifiable, it's worth noting that the implication here is that being a dangerous lightsaber combatant isn't nearly the most dangerous weapon in his arsenal.

Just a thought.

@BoD

My turn to step in, here. If by superiors you're referring to Yoda and Sidious, neither have continued to use lightsabers at this point. Sidious makes use of his about once post ROTS, and it's to toy with a few Jedi knights and padawans. Likewise, Yoda has almost completely abandoned lightsaber combat.

I wasn't referring to Yoda, no. However, Sidious is a different story - he has direct statements placing his saber abilities as on par with Yoda and Windu circa ROTJ, implying that either (A) he hasn't declined in skill, or (B) his augmentation has improved enough to the point where it compensates for any decrease in ability.

Krayt is not included in the quote since from an in-universe standpoint, he's dead as far as anyone is aware.

I agree.

The only character you can make a case for is Obi-Wan, and that's debatable.

Not debatable - OOU sources clarify Kenobi is at least as good as Vader in sabers.

I also think (though I don't necessarily agree) that the point ISV is making and you've ignored in your indignation is that Vader's skills are described as unparalleled, yet even his saber skills aren't as capable as his Force abilities. While I think it's unquantifiable, it's worth noting that the implication here is that being a dangerous lightsaber combatant isn't nearly the most dangerous weapon in his arsenal.

Just a thought.

Well, I'd then argue that Starkiller's Force Powers are likewise more potent than his Lightsaber abilities. As you said, the argument isn't concrete, and is very unquantifiable.

HP Legend wrote:READING COMPREHENSION.

Me: "Vader doesn't have any statements saying he's the second most powerful man in the galaxy circa TFU II, they're all as of ANH."

You: "the prima guide does say that: 'He's an unparalleled lightsaber combatant and an even more capable Force wielder.'"

Thanks, ISV! My comments were on Force Power, not Lightsaber combat, so your point is irrelevant. That aside, "unparalleled" is clear hyperbole given that Vader demonstrably does have equals and superiors in sabers within the lore.

Uh... did you say I was the one with reading comprehension problems? Sir, if you will kindly look at the quote, it specifically says Vader is even more powerful in the force than he is lethal with his lightsaber. Which was my point... the quote literally compares the two and confirms that he is more powerful in the force than he is skilled with a blade.

Also, if you ever deign to cop out with "that's hyperbole!" don't expect anyone to take you serious. You can't handwave things away like you try so desperately to do. If you don't think the quotes add up then maybe change your perceptions on one or the other, but don't act like I don't understand the material when you blatantly ignore things in favor your interpretation.

HP Legend wrote:Yes, it's what the Prima Guide says, but it's inconsequential to my point.

It's actually not. The point here was that Vader being the second most powerful man in the galaxy placed him above Starkiller. As you said, those quote were from ANH. You claimed:

HP Legend wrote:Vader doesn't have any statements saying he's the second most powerful man in the galaxy circa TFU II, they're all as of ANH. And unfortunately for Vader fans, whether Starkiller was still alive by ANH is ambiguous.

While this isn't a quote saying he's "second most powerful" it does support the idea he is above Starkiller which was the main topic of discussion you were having with Geisalt to begin with. So yes, a quote grammatically saying that Vader's abilities as of TFU 2 are superior to everyone else's in the game (Galen included) is in fact consequential to your point.

HP Legend wrote:Why would a general summary about Vader's skill and abilities be limiting itself to TFU 2 only? Just because it doesn't reference a time period does not mean it's solely referring to the game - you've provided no justification for such.

Actually I did provide justification, perhaps you didn't read? I said it has to be referring to TFU 2 only since the inclusion of the rest of the galaxy would put the Emperor in the list of people that are "unable to equal" Darth Vader, which we both know is false. So either, it's a lorebreaking quote or we can reconcile it by placing it in the span of the game only.

HP Legend wrote:Bold: Vader negating the majority of attacks launched against him by an exhausted Starkiller does not prove superiority to Starkiller in any way.

Underlined: Vader capitalising on an opening from a Starkiller who was both exhausted hindered by rage does not prove superiority.

Out of respect for Syndiciate and his legacy I won't trash your exhaustion argument (especially not on this thread.) But I will ask you to provide this instance of Vader "capitalizing an opening" from Starkiller. Because I know where it comes from, and once again you haven't done your homework. Starkiller is "distracted" in the Wii version of the game, yet you conveniently left out the part that the Wii version differs in several ways, even in that scene. Vader grips Starkiller in a choke and hauls him to the top of the tower, this is different to the novel and Xbox version. In the X-box version the reason cited for the ragdoll is specifically Vader being "too powerful." Also, cite me where Starkiller was hindered by rage? The game goes out of it's way to explain that "force fury" amplifies your abilities to extraordinary levels. Furthermore, this is all a vain attempt to run away from the argument that the quote saying Vader is "unparalleled" is referencing the entirety of TFU 2, including the endgame. What was it you said? Ah yes, READING COMPREHENSION? 

HP Legend wrote:This is you being a condescending asshole and offering me the definition of "unparalleled" like I don't know what it means, and failing to even pay the slightest bit of attention to the point I made.

Surely the irony shouldn't escape you. You do realize you do this exact thing of being a "condescending asshole" and explaining basic concepts to me at least once a week. You are in no position to try and claim I'm some type of aggressive asshole, when that's your entire style.

@The Dark Apprentice: I'll respond later today (probably in the evening). My PC is being laggy as shit, right now, so every post I'm making is taking twice as long as it should. Plus, I've got some school work that was due yesterday to finish off.