Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Clever excuse I must say. Good job Kilius.

MP ignored a lot of my points in his last response too. Like me, he probably didn't have the mental energy to address everything. It's not an excuse is practicality.

All good, @O-Siri. Looking forward to what you have to say anyway. I've enjoyed this exchange.

In that case, I’m going to make a summary of my key points from the back-and-forth plus the topic question in general:

Kit Fisto has a de facto ranking in the community, but no real reason for it (this applies to the B-team in general). The guy is inferior to early TCW Grievous, got beat by Ventress one-year post AotC, and fought Sidious with Mace for five seconds. He’s an impressive combatant, granted, but I see no reason as to why these showings as a duelist trump Qui-Gon’s. Maul is a more formidable opponent than Ventress or the GG Kit Fisto faced, and the Jedi Master has shown various times in TPM that he can pressure Maul and is comparable to him as a duelist.

The primary example is Tatooine. There has been a lot of back and forth here, but the facts remain: the leg injury Maul sustained was only a minor hinderance; there is no evidence that had he not suffered it, he would be “decisively” beating Qui-Gon. And End Game overrides the Darth Maul Journal in contradiction, being a later source, and Maul admits that at the time he blamed his leg injury for his inability to overpower Qui-Gon. Furthermore, innumerable sources, primary and secondary, all have both duelists fighting evenly until Jinn escaped.

*NB: The reason Qui-Gon collapsed on the floor with exhaustion was because he (1) spent a great deal of his reserves evading Maul and jumping onto the ship (Maul had no idea where Jinn had gone, thus it must have been a significant burst of speed) and (2) He poured all the rest of his strength on a swing to knock Maul off the ramp of the ship (the blow actually shook the entire ship as well). So, I don’t find it credible to argue that Jinn would be a collapsed heap after dueling Maul for 40 seconds in a neutral fight, which is evidenced by the Theed duel, where he’s fighting for a significantly longer period.

Even at Theed, after Obi-Wan is kicked off the platform and Jinn faces Maul alone, he drives Maul so hard that Maul must “catch his breath” and has multiple lightsaber wounds, all while Qui-Gon was on the verge of exhaustion per the adult novelisation. Maul still opted to trap him even in a near exhausted state, so he can’t just stomp a tired Qui-Gon.

In no way is it provable that TPM Kenobi is near his master. He caught a tired Maul off-guard with a rage amped aggressive attack. This can no way be used to infer how this fight would go had Kenobi been fighting at his base performance. Maul and Sidious both center on Qui-Gon as the clear major threat of the duo, and Qui-Gon was taking the brunt of the attacks from Maul during the battle per quotes. Jinn even admits to himself while fighting that Kenobi was not yet his equal. Furthermore, there’s no real indication of a vast improvement in Kenobi’s combative ability from TPM to AotC, thus it’s ultimately unlikely that Fisto can scale above Qui-Gon via the Cestus Deception spar.

To sum it up, Qui-Gon simply has better showings against a superior opponent. Fisto (and post-AotC Kenobi, mind you) are losing handily to people well below Maul’s paygrade, where Qui-Gon can draw out a fight with Maul for an extended period. There’s no comparison here. Kit Fisto simply has a ‘de facto’ standing in the community, and is completely reliant on flawed Cestus Deception and TPM Kenobi / Maul scaling - both scaling chains of which are not viable at all.

The guy is inferior to early TCW Grievous,

No, he isn't. And don't link WM's blog I've seen it. Grievous "overwhelmed" Fisto with the help of the magnaguards. One-on-one he was losing hence the phrase: "how quickly does power change hands". If the power was in Fisto's hands how could he be losing?

He poured all the rest of his strength on a swing to knock Maul off the ramp of the ship (the blow actually shook the entire ship as well).

...

and has multiple lightsaber wounds,

Both are non-canon. Not only do they contradict the film, but they are also omitted from all subsequent adaptations of the fight, save for the Anakin Journal but it's still overruled by G-Canon policy and the more recent TWODM and End-Game. They are early script concepts that Terry Brooks included as he was not privy to the final cut, but Lucas ultimately scrapped it, and all other writers followed the film's version.

O-Siri wrote:No, he isn't. And don't link WM's blog I've seen it. Grievous "overwhelmed" Fisto with the help of the magnaguards. One-on-one he was losing hence the phrase: "how quickly does power change hands". If the power was in Fisto's hands how could he be losing?

The magnaguard stuff is a red herring. I've spent a bit more time considering the fight, and I still don't believe Fisto is a superior combatant to S1 Grievous under normal circumstances. Firstly, GG wasn't in a condition to fight: his droid even says so in the episode. Furthermore, we have a couple of quotes confirming it:

Despite still recovering from his injuries, Grievous emerges from his sanctuary, determined to face the Jedi.

-- Lair of Grievous Episode Guide

It was Grievous. He was hanging from the stone ledge below Kit. His clawed feet were dug deep into the rock. The general quickly leaped up, black smoke pouring from his armor.

-- Star Wars: The Clone Wars - Grievous Attacks!

Thus, this is sub-base GG. Then we get to the actual duel. The source material makes it quite obvious that Fisto only starts winning the duel after he gains the second lightsaber, or rather when he utilises Jar'Kai:

Grievous extends all four arms and spins a quartet of lightsabers into deadly fanblades of energy. Fisto holds off the general, using the fog to his advantage as he disappears into the mist between blows. Fisto shears off one of Grievous' hands, reclaiming that lightsaber. He then begins to overpower the general, at which point Grievous' bodyguards enter the fray.

-- Lair of Grievous Episode Guide (Click for Link)

Kit smiled as he ignited the second lightsaber and attacked Grievous with dual strikes. The Jedi Master’s expertise began to drive Grievous back. He maneuvered quickly, flipping and blocking Grievous’s attacks with great skill. Grievous was on the retreat when the MagnaGuards appeared on the landing.

-- Star Wars: The Clone Wars - Grievous Attacks!

So the clear inference here is that Fisto only began to push GG back when he utilised Jar'Kai. So, Fisto can push back S1 General Grievous when he's (1) got two lightsabers and (2) Grievous is in no condition to fight. Thus, there's no way of proving Fisto is superior, but even if he was comparable, I don't see how that helps him.

---

O-Siri wrote:Both are non-canon. Not only do they contradict the film, but they are also omitted from all subsequent adaptations of the fight, save for the Anakin Journal but it's still overruled by G-Canon policy and the more recent TWODM and End-Game. They are early script concepts that Terry Brooks included as he was not privy to the final cut, but Lucas ultimately scrapped it, and all other writers followed the film's version.

There's plenty of things that happen in the novels that don't happen in the movies, that doesn't mean they're not canon. GG's armor isn't pouring with black smoke, that doesn't mean the book's description is invalid. This is just a grasp for straws here. And, no, you're incorrect: both events are in subsequent sources from the script and adult novelisation. For the ramp:



-- Star Wars: Episode I - The Illustrated Screenplay



-- The Phantom Menace Movie Storybook

So we have two important sources mentioning this. As for Maul's wounds, apart from the script and adult novelisation, we have this:

The Jedi must wait until the next pulse to advance down the corridor. Obi-Wan is impatient and paces, waiting for the wall of rays to open. Qui-Gon sits and meditates. The Sith Lord tries to patch up his wounds.

-- Star Wars: Episode I - The Illustrated Screenplay

Plus, other sources like End Game and TWoDM don't mention the wounds, but that doesn't contradict that he had any. We only see windows into Maul's mind, not every single thought and action. So there's no explicit contradiction.

---

All in all, you've failed to prove Fisto has any showings that beats Qui-Gon's in combat, and both the ramp stuff and Maul having wounds from the Naboo fight is supported by corroborating evidence that isn't contradicted out of existence.

O-Siri wrote:

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Clever excuse I must say. Good job Kilius.

MP ignored a lot of my points in his last response too. Like me, he probably didn't have the mental energy to address everything. It's not an excuse is practicality.

J O K E.

If it helps, the droids that Fisto obliterates in LOE are established to be the elite

The magnaguard stuff is a red herring.

No it isn't. You said he was inferior to Grievous and the only evidence for that is the databank that says Grievous overwhelmed Fisto but lived to fight another day. I never claimed Fisto was superior to a healthy Grievous. Everything else you said is irrelevant. 

There's plenty of things that happen in the novels that don't happen in the movies, that doesn't mean they're not canon.

Officially it does. A deleted scene that takes place offscreen like The of Delegation 2000 is still canon for example. But an onscreen contradiction automatically renders itself N-Canon such as Maul's wounds which are clearly absent in the final cut and the ramp scene which couldn't have taken place offscreen as what we see in the final cut is one unbroken action.

GG's armor isn't pouring with black smoke, that doesn't mean the book's description is invalid

Actually, it does. T-Canon overrides C-Canon in that instance.

This is just a grasp for straws here.

Yes, you are. 

both events are in subsequent sources from the script and adult novelization. For the ramp:

The illustrated screenplay is exactly the same as the one on Isdbm, you've brought nothing new to the table. The storybook was released before the movie. As I said Lucas changed his mind and all other authors followed suit. IOW it's a scraped concept. The most recent and relevant sources omit it. Officially the ramp scene and Maul sustaining wounds never happened. 

Plus, other sources like End Game and TWoDM don't mention the wounds, but that doesn't contradict that he had any. We only see windows into Maul's mind, not every single thought and action. So there's no explicit contradiction.

It doesn't matter. The highest canon says Maul didn't sustain any wounds. It's the reason TWODM which follows the choreography to the letter and used the novel and the script as a source of inspiration as noted in the books acknowledgment section, doesn't include it.

Yeah, you can't really argue against that: "well, it's not seen in the movie, so it's completely worthless".

Vorpal Blade wrote:Yeah, you can't really argue against that: "well, it's not seen in the movie, so it's completely worthless".

If you are arguing the ramp scene contributed to Jinn's exhaustion, then yes it's omission does make it worthless. According to the highest canon and the most recent continuity canon novels, the scene never happened and therefore Jinn's exhaustion is mostly attributed to Maul wearing Jinn down. 

Same with the wounds. The highest canon says Maul made it through the first half of the duel without sustaining any wounds. It takes precedence over continuity canon in regards to feat comparison. Clearly, the author of TWODM agreed as is usually the case of a writer's depiction of fights after the movie is released. When there is a contradiction between a novel and the final cut of the movie, typically it's the movie version that is used in a later novel portrayl, as is in accords to canon policy.

Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon parry these swipes, spinning out of reach and forcing Maul to retreat farther into the hangar. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan work perfectly together, keeping the Sith Lord at bay.

-- Star Wars Episode I: 3D

The storybook is an outlier and the TPM novel, EG, TWDM are primary sources and thus should take precedence. Maul was not "forced to retreat" he was luring the Jedi as he had planned it from the beginning. The storybook was obviously written without regard to EU continuity and based solely on the writer's interpretation of the choreography. 

The ferocious lightsaber duel travels beyond the hangar into an immense power generator lined with catwalks. Maul tries to separate the Jedi. He kicks Obi-Wan off one of the bridge spans, sending him over the edge to a bridge far below.

Doesn't say Maul needed to separate them from the start of the duel only that he tried to when he was pinned. I'll agree that he definitely needed to in that instance as he was in a bad position and couldn't dance around as he could previously, but it doesn't support your stance that OOU sources say Maul would have lost had he not gone through with his plan.

Additionally, Kenobi in two soures says that he sensed Maul knew he was going to lose, and thus separated the two. So, yeah, he was eventually going to lose the duel. There's no evidence to the contrary.

Much like Luke being wrong about Vader holding back, Kenobi was incorrect about Maul believing he was going to lose. In TWODM Maul believes he is in control the entire time up to that point.

Maul is a more formidable opponent than Ventress or the GG Kit Fisto faced, and the Jedi Master has shown various times in TPM that he can pressure Maul and is comparable to him as a duelist.

Even TCW Grievous has good feats in having hard-fought fights with TCW Kenobi who is equal or even outright better than Revival Maul who is just as powerful as TPM Maul though obviously suffering from serious ring-rust. And TCW Kenobi is overall equal to season 5 Maul. Beating a hindered Grievous isn't a bad showing at all. 

Now I'm not arguing TCW Grievous is as skilled as Maul or even Ventress for that matter, he isn't. His strengths are mainly in his physicals and dirty tactics. He never really came off as anything more than an average duelist in the show, unlike his classic EU counterpart. But he is a formidable opponent to main characters and I can see even this version of Grievous giving Jinn some serious difficulty in a first-time encounter. 

Furthermore, innumerable sources, primary and secondary, all have both duelists fighting evenly until Jinn escaped.

...

For one, the G-canon script has them both "bashing each other with incredible blows" and "leaping over one another in an incredible display of acrobatics."

That's just a display of skills, it doesn't tell us anything about the level of competitiveness much less specifically it was evenly matched. 

The adult novelization notes how they surge back and forth,

That doesn't mean it was evenly matched. 

and End Game states very specifically that the battle had only tipped in Maul's favour as his opponent escaped.

No, just when Jinn's stamina had begun to waver and that was well before he was given a chance to escape:

End Game wrote:Then just when Qui-Gon's stamina was begining to flag and the fight was tipping in Maul's favor the incomprehessible occured: Qui-Gon fled.

The Wrath of Darth Maul wrote:The Jedi kept up with Maul, but Maul soon sensed... He’s getting tired. Maul felt the pain in his leg become more intense. He became angry at himself for being wounded, used the anger to fuel the dark side, and directed his rage at the Jedi. Maul was certain he would defeat his opponent. He will fall heavily, like a monument. But the Jedi did not falter. As Maul spun and moved around the Jedi, he saw the Queen’s starship lift off. He also saw the hoarding ramp was still extended. Maul leaped over the Jed, blocking his path to the rising ship, as their lightsabers continued to weave and smash into each other. The ship had just moved above their position when the Jedi leaped straight up and landed on the extended ramp, his lightsaber still blazing.

The battle turned decisively in Maul's favor after the first few exchanges, before the ship even lifted off. Jinn gets credit for persevering but really that was all he was doing. It stopped being competitive after about 10 seconds in film time.

Yes, I am aware of quotes saying Jinn was "nearly killed" and so forth, but these are contradicted by a larger consensus of quotes. Feel free to challenge that, if you must.

TPM Novel wrote:He lay on the cool metal floor of the entry, his clothing dusty and damp with his sweat, his body bruised and battered. He breathed deeply, waiting for his pounding heart to quiet. He had barely escaped with his life, and the thought was worrisome. His opponent was strong and had tested him severely. He was getting old, he decided, and he did not like the feeling.

Kind of goes hand and hand with the whole "timely interception" quote. The tide hadn't merely turned in Maul's favor Jinn was on the verge of getting killed.

There's a good debate going on here. Props to @O-Siri & @Vorpal Blade

O-Siri wrote:If you are arguing the ramp scene contributed to Jinn's exhaustion, then yes it's omission does make it worthless. According to the highest canon and the most recent continuity canon novels, the scene never happened and therefore Jinn's exhaustion is mostly attributed to Maul wearing Jinn down.

Incorrect. The highest canon is G-canon. The movie script is G-canon, and thus overrides any C-canon contradictions (End Game, Wrath of Darth Maul etc.). As for the only other G-canon source that could possibly override it - the movie - there is no contradiction. The ramp fight was actually recorded and included in the blu-ray version of the movie as a deleted scene, which are G-canon as you stated yourself. Alongside that, Leeland Chee confirms as such:

Yes, unless they conflict with something else seen in the films or if the reasoning behind deleting the scene keeps it from being continuity.

And you can clearly see in the final cut that Maul has just gotten out of a fall as he watches the ship leave. For this reason, the movie doesn't contradict what happens "off-screen". Thus, the fight did happen according to the highest canon - Lucas himself.

O-Siri wrote:Same with the wounds. The highest canon says Maul made it through the first half of the duel without sustaining any wounds. It takes precedence over continuity canon in regards to feat comparison. Clearly, the author of TWODM agreed as is usually the case of a writer's depiction of fights after the movie is released. When there is a contradiction between a novel and the final cut of the movie, typically it's the movie version that is used in a later novel portrayl, as is in accords to canon policy.

As cited above, the highest canon is Lucas, and his G-canon script says that Maul has wounds. Just because they're not obviously seen (they could be in the inner thigh, Maul's dark clothing doesn't make it obvious) does not mean a contradiction or a retcon.

---

O-Siri wrote:Even TCW Grievous has good feats in having hard-fought fights with TCW Kenobi who is equal or even outright better than Revival Maul who is just as powerful as TPM Maul though obviously suffering from serious ring-rust. And TCW Kenobi is overall equal to season 5 Maul. Beating a hindered Grievous isn't a bad showing at all.

Now I'm not arguing TCW Grievous is as skilled as Maul or even Ventress for that matter, he isn't. His strengths are mainly in his physicals and dirty tactics. He never really came off as anything more than an average duelist in the show, unlike his classic EU counterpart. But he is a formidable opponent to main characters and I can see even this version of Grievous giving Jinn some serious difficulty in a first-time encounter.

So TCW Kenobi didn't grow at all through the whole series? GG didn't improve at all during the whole series? I'm not the most familiar with TCW, but Kenobi dosen't fight Maul until later seasons (season 3 or 4 iirc). Season 1 Kenobi is a lot closer to AotC Kenobi than the Kenobi that fights Maul through the Clone Wars. So, show me feats from Season 1 GG or Season 1 Kenobi that Fisto can scale from.

---

I don't have the time to respond to the "evenly matched stuff", which is semantics anyway. Consider that even if I did concede that Jinn was merely holding on (he wasn't), that is still better than any showing Fisto has. And no, beating S1 GG with a series of advantages/environmental nuances/specific circumstances is not comparable, because you've failed to prove how S1 GG compares to TPM Maul. So again, please give me a showing Fisto has that surpasses Qui-Gon's.

A most interesting discussion so far gentlemen. Keep up the good work.

The ramp fight was actually recorded and included in the blu-ray version of the movie as a deleted scene, which are G-canon as you stated yourself. Alongside that, Leeland Chee confirms as such:

Yes, unless they conflict with something else seen in the films or if the reasoning behind deleting the scene keeps it from being continuity.

And you can clearly see in the final cut that Maul has just gotten out of a fall as he watches the ship leave. For this reason, the movie doesn't contradict what happens "off-screen". Thus, the fight did happen according to the highest canon - Lucas himself.

It doesn't happen "offscreen" you are really reaching here. What we see is Jinn jumping on the ramp and Maul staring off in silence as he deactivates his lightsaber. If there was a cross-cut to the inside of the ship or something then you could argue it happened offscreen, but as it stands it's one uninterrupted action and it's the official version all others follow. The fact that Maul is in a crouch as he stands up doesn't he jumped in continuity, as there can be any number of reasons.

Just because they're not obviously seen (they could be in the inner thigh, Maul's dark clothing doesn't make it obvious) does not mean a contradiction or a retcon.

We would definitely be seeing scorch marks, rips and tears in his clothing, and smoke searing from the gashes if he was even lightly grazed by a lightsaber. Moreover, the script and the novel say he was patching his wounds, in the movie all he does is pace about like a caged predator. It's about as direct a contradiction as it gets.

So, igoring my base point and arguing on semantics? Lucas' written material is the highest canon, and cannot be overriden by C-canon books written by authors who probably haven't even talked to George Lucas. There is nothing in the movie that contradicts the ramp sequence happening off-screen; and Maul's patching up wounds isn't mutually exclusive with actually having wounds. Again, they don't have to be obvious, you just want them to be obvious.

But again, all of this is utterly semantic. I ask once again: where is one showing Fisto has that scales above Qui-Gon's duels with Darth Maul?

MP ragdolling.

Kilius ragdolling tbh

So far, I haven’t seen any cogent arguments from a single person, just bits and pieces. The Grievous stuff has been refuted; and no, Sidious blitzing Maul who was so close to death he was hallucinating or a stationary Maul watching augmented Sidious move does not mean TPM Maul couldn’t react to even one blow from Sidious, where Fisto apparently can.

The only reasonable way to argue Fisto here is via scaling. You can try to argue that TPM Obi-Wan is close to Qui-Gon, then wank his growth and Fisto’s spar in TCD. I don’t agree at all with it, but it’s Fisto’s only viable option really.

Qui-Gon ragdolling tbh

Kit still beats the shit out of him.

In all seriousness, Kit has better feats. He was able to beat a slight post AotC Kenobi in sparring matches. Jinn and TPM Kenobi are pretty close, but AotC Kenobi has had 10 years to improve, so he likely surpassed Jinn. But Kit is not going to "beats the shit out of him" as the user above said, because they're both 7s, and Maul, a level/tier 8 fighter, couldn't stomp Jinn, and please don't give me that silly nonsense "NuH uH! GiLaRd'S rAnKinGz aRe mOvIeS oNly cUz i ReAlLy wAnT fIsTo To WiN aGaInSt mAuL!!!!"

That Gillard screen shot looks like a fabrication tbh. If it isn't a fabrication, well... Fisto takes an L in this match up, but he should win a minority.

Latham2000 wrote:In all seriousness, Kit has better feats. He was able to beat a slight post AotC Kenobi in sparring matches. Jinn and TPM Kenobi are pretty close, but AotC Kenobi has had 10 years to improve, so he likely surpassed Jinn. But Kit is not going to "beats the shit out of him" as the user above said, because they're both 7s, and Maul, a level/tier 8 fighter, couldn't stomp Jinn, and please don't give me that silly nonsense "NuH uH! GiLaRd'S rAnKinGz aRe mOvIeS oNly cUz i ReAlLy wAnT fIsTo To WiN aGaInSt mAuL!!!!"

That Gillard screen shot looks like a fabrication tbh. If it isn't a fabrication, well... Fisto takes an L in this match up, but he should win a minority.

1. Proof that Jinn and TPM Kenobi are "pretty close".
2. Quotes on Kenobi's growth from TPM to AotC rather than speculative "well he probably surpassed Qui-Gon".

Jinn wins.