Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:

Meatpants wrote:Jinn is a lot closer to Maul than I first suspected.

In other news: The sky is a lot bluer than I first suspected.

Meatpants wrote:Jinn is a lot closer to Maul than I first suspected.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:

Reynard (Ethanion) wrote:I don't think this needs explaining tbh.

That's fine, I'll explain it for you.

I don’t see the relevance of Obi-Wan having a lot of newfound respect for Fisto and being amazed by how Fisto fights. Fisto’s unique way of using Shii-Cho was one in a million, and Kenobi had never seen that sort of display before. It was quite different from his own training under Qui-Gon, which was a lot more measured, refined.

Note also that there’s plenty of examples of onlookers being amazed by someone’s speed, despite being their superior or on an approximately close level to them. In the Jedi Apprentice books Jinn notes a few times how Kenobi moves faster than he can track and so forth. The prime example is probably Anakin when he views Sidious and Mace fighting. This is a speed level he’s capable of (and has) achieved, but as an onlooker he’s amazed at the speed, he can’t even discern them.

Frankly, you’re going to need more than Kenobi’s amazement of Fisto’s unique fighting style to prove a significant gap between himself and Fisto. Recollecting on the two major points of the CD spar that I’ve already addressed:

(1) Kenobi and Fisto were going through traditional Jedi routines and slowly amping up over time to more advanced dueling. In comparison, the spar between Qui-Gon and Kenobi was a lot different. It was a straight free-for-all, and Qui-Gon wasn’t expecting Kenobi to try and prove himself.

(2) Fisto limiting himself is perfectly explained by considering that Fisto and Kenobi have never sparred, so both are unfamiliar with each other. Since Fisto is faster and probably more skilled at this point, he limits himself so that Kenobi can adjust and settle into the motions, which is something heavily implied in the novel anyway.

I hold Fisto as superior – but not by an overly significant margin – to Kenobi by CD. In contrast, I find the difference between Jinn and Kenobi as large enough that even with Kenobi’s growth by CD, Jinn is still superior by a larger margin than Fisto is. Fisto has a spar with an unfamiliar opponent versus Jinn contending with Darth Maul? I know what scaling is more solid.

This Jinn bias is getting out of hand

It hasn't gone far enough.

I don’t see the relevance of Obi-Wan having a lot of newfound respect for Fisto and being amazed by how Fisto fights. Fisto’s unique way of using Shii-Cho was one in a million, and Kenobi had never seen that sort of display before. It was quite different from his own training under Qui-Gon, which was a lot more measured, refined. 

Supported in the lore, this stance is

Thanks, nice quote.

Reviving this thread because I still haven’t seen any justification for Kit Fisto being above Qui-Gon. Fisto got blitzed by early war Ventress, but we’re to assume that Qui-Gon who can pose a true challenge to Maul in sabers is inferior?

Entombed wrote:Reviving this thread because I still haven’t seen any justification for Kit Fisto being above Qui-Gon. Fisto got blitzed by early war Ventress, but we’re to assume that Qui-Gon who can pose a true challenge to Maul in sabers is inferior?

Not a Qui Gon or Fisto expert, but couldn't you argue that Fisto not getting instantly blitzed by Sidious is more impressive than Qui Gon's feats?

Ventress never blitzed Fisto. Or anyone in that novel. Plus TPM Maul who couldn't react to TPM Sids > Qui-Gon. Kit who can react to RotS Sids > Jinn.

That's always been a poor argument. From the death of Tiin to Fisto's death is 5 seconds, and Fisto is fighting with Mace. It's very special to try and argue that Fisto was singlehandedly fighting off Sidious for 5 seconds. Not to mention that it inherently applies Fisto > TPM Maul, which is also incorrect.

And Fisto gets knocked down by Ventress relatively quickly, as does Kenobi.

Fisto fighting with Mace doesn't effect him reacting to Sidious' singular hits. Not that it matters as he clearly react them while Maul couldn't react to one.


Honestly, why can't he be? I've never actually seen a source for Gillard's "Maul and Dooku are 8s". Even then, it points to Fisto being extremely close.

Fisto had a massive style disadvantage against Ventress + Her seeing his style beforehand + having his ankle busted. Kenobi was burnt as well and was restricted by the catwalk. He then beat her in the underwater fight. Where notably there physicals equaled out.

Greysentinel365 wrote:Fisto fighting with Mace doesn't effect him reacting to Sidious' singular hits. Not that it matters as he clearly react them while Maul couldn't react to one.


Honestly, why can't he be? I've never actually seen a source for Gillard's "Maul and Dooku are 8s". Even then, it points to Fisto being extremely close.

Fisto had a massive style disadvantage against Ventress + Her seeing his style beforehand + having his ankle busted. Kenobi was burnt as well and was restricted by the catwalk. He then beat her in the underwater fight. Where notably there physicals equaled out.

Don't have any stock in this fight so I'll be commentating on both arguments. Doesn't Fisto specialize in underwater fights? IIRC his lightsaber was made waterproof due to his proclivity for underwater combat

Before we go further, can I see what specific instance you're referring to for TPM Maul being unable to react to one of Sidious' hits?

@Kingofblades 

Obi-Wan fights Ventress underwater. Not Fisto.

@Entombed

Maul parried the blow and reversed, coming at Sidious from the opposite side. But Sidious had already vanished, leaving Maul to lunge at the empty air. As Maul lost his balance, his body fell against the cave's wall.
Sidious said from behind Maul, "You are that pathetic. You are weak. Not worthy of being a Sith Lord. I have misjudged you."
Maul's anger burned to rage. He spun fast and swung his lightsaber again, but again he failed to strike Sidious, who moved faster than he could follow.

--The Wrath of Darth Maul

I parry the blow and reverse, come at him from the opposite side. But he is already gone by the time I am able to make my attack. The lunge throws off my balance. I weave, the cave walls blurring. He laughs.

--Episode 1 Journal: Darth Maul

The lightsaber whirls in the air, twirling, held in my Master's hand. I can't track it, it moves so fast. But I know it's heading for me. Lord Sidious moves faster than my eye can follow. I smell heat and smoke. The laser traces the outline of my body, my face, my hands. The buzz is loud in my ear. One flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle, and I am dead.

--Episode 1 Journal: Darth Maul

@Greysentinel365

You're conflating a 17 year old Maul who's dying from a festered wound and can't even walk with TPM Maul? What a joke.

MP wrote:@Greysentinel365

You're conflating a 17 year old Maul who's dying from a festered wound and can't even walk with TPM Maul? What a joke.

The last example is TPM Maul

@Greysentinel365

The fact that you'd even involve those quotes just baffles me; you know their context, and you know they prove nothing in relation to TPM Maul. 

I forgot about the last quote, in which case, we're looking at a training excercise where Sidious is tracing around a stationary Maul. Burden of proof is on you to prove that this quote demonstrates that in a combat situation, TPM Maul would not be able to block even one hit from Sidious - based on an unaugmented and stationary Maul watching an augmented Sidious move.

Let’s be real, everyone saying Jinn>Fisto simply don’t want to accept that Fisto is > Maul despite all evidence bar one source in Gillard pointing to this being the case