Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto

Kit absolutely beats the shit out of him. CD Obi Wan has 11 years of growth on top of his TPM incarnation, and Kit was stalemating him whilst putting himself at sever disadvantages. Gillard has no credibility with regards to the EU and tbh neither does George, people are happy to pick and choose when somebody is credible and when they’re not. George has said that the EU went well out of his control for the most part. Jinn has nothing other than fighting very closely with Maul after a minute to meditate, which tbh likely amplified his abilities more than his usual ability and still lost.

Maul has nothing either. Literally all his wank if from TCW scaling and I don’t even consider TCW to be a part of the EU anyway. He the guy that gets challenged twice by Padawans. One being Darsha Assant & the other being TPM Kenobi

Most of Fisto’s  feats simply do not convince me. The Grievus one is rather suspect, and, if anything, can be used as a source of lowballing given that that version of Grievus has difficulty against Ashoka Tano and Eeth Koth. Him reacting to Sidious, while impressive, was achieved only in Mace Windu’s presence (Windu being a Yoda tier fighter by this point).  I’m unsure he would be capable of doing the same alone. Losing to Ventress was not a very good feat either. By contrast, Qui Gon legitimately contending and giving a good fight to Maul along with the various statements about his power and skill (comparable to Fisto if not better), makes him a superior combatant. I mean, you can build on Fisto’s best feats (superiority to AOTC Kenobi, reacting to Sidious) but I think Qui Gon has a more established power level.

CuckedCurry wrote:Kit absolutely beats the shit out of him. CD Obi Wan has 11 years of growth on top of his TPM incarnation, and Kit was stalemating him whilst putting himself at sever disadvantages. Gillard has no credibility with regards to the EU and tbh neither does George, people are happy to pick and choose when somebody is credible and when they’re not. George has said that the EU went well out of his control for the most part. Jinn has nothing other than fighting very closely with Maul after a minute to meditate, which tbh likely amplified his abilities more than his usual ability and still lost.

Maul has nothing either. Literally all his wank if from TCW scaling and I don’t even consider TCW to be a part of the EU anyway. He the guy that gets challenged twice by Padawans. One being Darsha Assant & the other being TPM Kenobi

Yeah... but the old EU is meant to be follow was meant to be as accurate and faithful to Lucas’s vision as much as possible. Sure you can get contradictions with Anakin and Vader comparison, but Kit barely has any feats and significance in the movies, most of the material about him is from the EU. What doesn’t the EU do to change Fisto, besides giving him more feats? The EU did that for all Movie characters, and it’s bound to the movies, not the other way round, as you’re insinuating.

Maul got challenged by padawans? That’s a lol worthy rebuttal because Jedi titles like don’t mean jack, and are Jedi that are padawan by title are only given that title based on their lack of emotional maturity.Shadow Hunter states that Maul was “far more powerful” than Darsha, and it takes 6 months before TPM, so there’s quite a bit of time for Maul to grow, given that he’s a Dark Sider who meditates and trains himself to grow in power like how the Sith in general are obsessed with being super powerful. And TPM Kenobi only fought Maul with the help with Qui-Gon, the only time he fought Maul without Qui-Gon’s help, was when he was rage amped and managed to catch Maul off guard with his aggression. Without the rage amp, Maul and TPM Kenobi aren’t close, but Kenobi is beyond Maul’s ability to speed blitz, which doesn’t indicate parity.

Meatpants wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:In all seriousness, Kit has better feats. He was able to beat a slight post AotC Kenobi in sparring matches. Jinn and TPM Kenobi are pretty close, but AotC Kenobi has had 10 years to improve, so he likely surpassed Jinn. But Kit is not going to "beats the shit out of him" as the user above said, because they're both 7s, and Maul, a level/tier 8 fighter, couldn't stomp Jinn, and please don't give me that silly nonsense "NuH uH! GiLaRd'S rAnKinGz aRe mOvIeS oNly cUz i ReAlLy wAnT fIsTo To WiN aGaInSt mAuL!!!!"

That Gillard screen shot looks like a fabrication tbh. If it isn't a fabrication, well... Fisto takes an L in this match up, but he should win a minority.

1. Proof that Jinn and TPM Kenobi are "pretty close".
2. Quotes on Kenobi's growth from TPM to AotC rather than speculative "well he probably surpassed Qui-Gon".

1. Didn’t TPM novel suggest they were? And IIRC, a 17 year old (8 years pre-TPM) was able to tax Jinn in their sparring matches.
2. Yeah, I was just guessing that he would’ve grown noticeably because of training Anakin and shit. We know that AotC Obi-Wan is better than his TPM self. Don’t take my comment as declarative, I am open to change my mind.

Latham2000 wrote:1. Didn’t TPM novel suggest they were? And IIRC, a 17 year old (8 years pre-TPM) was able to tax Jinn in their sparring matches.

No, it doesn't. In fact, Qui-Gon even thinks during the last fight that Obi-Wan is not yet his equal. Furthermore, sparring matches are not and should not be universally reliable markers for combative ability. The spar was like that because (1) Qui-Gon wasn't even expecting Kenobi to fight like that and (2) they know each other's moves. Additionally, you would hardly expect the master to just end the spar with a disarm every time they see an opening.

Latham2000 wrote:2. Yeah, I was just guessing that he would’ve grown noticeably because of training Anakin and shit. We know that AotC Obi-Wan is better than his TPM self. Don’t take my comment as declarative, I am open to change my mind.

The problem is proving he's near enough to Qui-Gon that such growth would allow him to surpass his master. Problem is that there's no real proof he was close.

@MP: Fair enough.

Latham2000 wrote:

CuckedCurry wrote:Kit absolutely beats the shit out of him. CD Obi Wan has 11 years of growth on top of his TPM incarnation, and Kit was stalemating him whilst putting himself at sever disadvantages. Gillard has no credibility with regards to the EU and tbh neither does George, people are happy to pick and choose when somebody is credible and when they’re not. George has said that the EU went well out of his control for the most part. Jinn has nothing other than fighting very closely with Maul after a minute to meditate, which tbh likely amplified his abilities more than his usual ability and still lost.

Maul has nothing either. Literally all his wank if from TCW scaling and I don’t even consider TCW to be a part of the EU anyway. He the guy that gets challenged twice by Padawans. One being Darsha Assant & the other being TPM Kenobi

Yeah... but  the old EU is meant to be follow was meant to be as accurate and faithful to Lucas’s vision as much as possible. Sure you can get contradictions with Anakin and Vader comparison, but Kit barely has any feats and significance in the movies, most of the material about him is from the EU. What doesn’t the EU do to change Fisto, besides giving him more feats? The EU did that for all Movie characters, and it’s bound to the movies, not the other way round, as you’re insinuating.

Maul got challenged by padawans? That’s a lol worthy rebuttal because Jedi titles like don’t mean jack, and are Jedi that are padawan by title are only given that title based on their lack of emotional maturity.Shadow Hunter states that Maul was “far more powerful” than Darsha, and it takes 6 months before TPM, so there’s quite a bit of time for Maul to grow, given that he’s a Dark Sider who meditates and trains himself to grow in power like how the Sith in general are obsessed with being super powerful. And TPM Kenobi only fought Maul with the help with Qui-Gon, the only time he fought Maul without Qui-Gon’s help, was when he was rage amped and managed to catch Maul off guard with his aggression. Without the rage amp, Maul and TPM Kenobi aren’t close, but Kenobi is beyond Maul’s ability to speed blitz, which doesn’t indicate parity.

Fisto’s feats are almost entirely EU based. Gillard has no bearing over the EU and neither does George. What I’m saying is that just because Gillard has commented on Fisto v Jinn, and Gillard supposedly echoes George’s vision, that doesn’t mean his comments should even be considered relevant.

The reason why I comment on Maul losing to Padawans (lol) is because neither Darsha nor  TPM Kenobi had achieved Fisto’s level of mental mastery. Where Maul is a technique and skill-based fighter, Fisto is a connection-based fighter. He goes closer and closer to a mental edge. Maul has faced two opponents of inferior mastery to Fisto (and was stalemated by one of them) as well as an inferior connection and relationship with the Force.

Ventress defeating Ventress isn’t relevant as Makashi was literally created to answer Shii-Cho’s weaknesses (not to mention she is also>Maul). We know Kenobi’s Soresu at this point is still exceptionally well developed, his connection to the Force has increased, he’s more experienced and basic things like his speed would have increased too. 

Moral of the story, Kit>>CD Kenobi>/~Maul>Jinn>TPM Kenobi

Join me sausage hour

You don't need Gillard's comments to reasonably argue Jinn > Fisto. In fact I haven't even brought it up in the latest bout of argumentation regarding the matchup.

Well, I mean, you do

Jinn has nothing in the EU giving him shit unless you use TCW

Read the forum guidelines. All matchups are based on the framework of the Holocron unless otherwise specificed. Make your own thread on the matchup with your specific "EU only no TCW" crap if you wanna argue it.

The clincher for your scaling is that CD Kenobi is ~ / > TPM Maul. That hasn't been proven.

Concession accepted 

If you can’t prove it in the old EU, then I’ve won the argument. Blending two continuities together doesn’t make sense. You either use the old Eu or the new. Fisto dominates in the old EU but is challenged in the new.

@CuckedCurry:

Fisto’s feats are almost entirely EU based. Gillard has no bearing over the EU and neither does George. What I’m saying is that just because Gillard has commented on Fisto v Jinn, and Gillard supposedly echoes George’s vision, that doesn’t mean his comments should even be considered relevant. wrote:--CC

Terrible rebuttal. EU stands for Expanded Universe, do you know what the Expanded Universe is? Wait I'll answer that for you: The Star Wars Expanded Universe. The movies wasn't bound to the EU, but the old EU, for all intents and purposes, is meant to be bound to the movies, and the EU doesn't contradict what Lucas/Gillard's ranking that puts TPM Maul above Fisto, so your argument just reeks of "I REALLY DON'T WANT FISTO TO BE INFERIOR TO MAUL!!!"

The reason why I comment on Maul losing to Padawans (lol) is because neither Darsha wrote:--CC

Maul never lost his fight with Darsha, so your point is moot. Shadow Hunter says that Maul is far more powerful in the Force than Darsha:

For a few incredibly long heartbeats Darsha was paralyzed by shock, defeated by her emotions. Fear, despair, and hopelessness clawed at her, sapping her will. She faced the ultimate enemy; the Sith was far more powerful than she in the Force. wrote:--Darth Maul Shadow Hunter.

Oh and Shadow Hunter takes place 6 months before TPM. 6 months is plenty of time for a young 21-22 year old Dark Sider like Maul, who is obsessed with becoming super powerful because the Dark Side is about power and the Sith crave power, to develop his combat skills and deepen his mastery of the Force, so your attempt to lower TPM Maul by bringing up the fact that a 6 months pre-TPM Maul didn't stomp Darsha, but forget that he was stated to be far more powerful than her in the same novel that you cite, is laughable beyond comprehension.

nor TPM Kenobi had achieved Fisto’s level of mental mastery. wrote:--CC

He only lost to Kenobi because he was flaunting:

In a lightsaber duel, confidence is always a good thing. But when confidence turns to arrogance, the duelist can easily throw away what seems to be a certain victory.Sith Lord Darth Maul was so sure of his skills that he believed he could defeat two Jedi at once. When Maul battled Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi at the same time on Naboo, at first he seemed right. Thanks to his mastery of martial arts and his deadly saberstaff, Darth Maul was a fearsome opponent for the Jedi. Qui-Gon was fatally injured by the clash, and although Obi-Wan fought on bravely, it was clear that the Sith was more powerful.Maul's Force push left Obi-Wan hanging from a pipe, having lost his lightsaber, and it looked as if Maul would finish off the Jedi. But his arrogance got the better of him. He stopped for a moment to taunt his opponent. Obi-Wan summoned all of his strength and used the Force to retrieve Qui-Gon's weapon, defeating Maul with one blow. Darth Maul was destroyed,a victim of his own arrogance. wrote:--Star Wars Jedi Battles (2013).

Maul didn't lose because he wasn't skilled or powerful enough, his arrogance got the better of him, no thanks to PIS. 

Where Maul is a technique and skill-based fighter, Fisto is a connection-based fighter. He goes closer and closer to a mental edge. wrote:--CC

OK...?

Maul has faced two opponents of inferior mastery to Fisto (and was stalemated by one of them) as well as an inferior connection and relationship with the Force. wrote:-CC

Firstly, you need to prove that Fisto is better than the combined strength of Jinn and TPM Kenobi. The idea that Fisto is better than Jinn, while plausible, is not a fact. Secondly, he was only stalemated by Qui-Gon in their first duel on Tatooine, and it was only a stalemate because Jinn managed to escape on that ship. Maul was injured during that fight to the point that it "slowed him

In one perfect movement I cut the engine and leap off the speeder, my lightsaber activated and in my hand. The Jedi meets my first blow, blocking it. He has expected my flying maneuver.If an opponent can read you, the fight is over. I don't like that the Jedi was perfectly prepared for my first blow. Within seconds, I throw away my usual combinations and strategies. This Jedi seems to know how I will move before I do. But he cannot match my strength. I sense this. And I feel his surprise at this. Yet he does not let his puzzlement slow him down. I tell myself that this man has never met an enemy like me before, and it frightens him. Your fear is justified. Prepare to die. I accelerate my pace, calling on my anger to increase my power. My footwork has never been so brilliant. I use the shifting sand as resistance. My lightness and quickness will defeat this man, with his large body, his heavy movements. But he is graceful, this Jedi. The sand doesn't seem to hamper him. He is never off balance, no matter where or how I strike. Our blows send shudders through my body. He meets my strength. Our lightsabers clash and sizzle. Dust and sand rise around us. I never lose my rhythm. The Jedi calls to the boy, tells him to go back to the ship. The cowardly boy runs off. After I defeat my enemy, I will find the second Jedi. But I must confess that this Jedi is a challenge. If I leap, he is with me. If I turn, he follows me. He meets my ferocity with his own. His lightsaber swirls and hums, and several times comes closer than I like. It is because of my wound. It has slowed me down somewhat. It is almost imperceptible, but it is there. The Jedi has an advantage. I am not at my best. This realization sends more rage pumping into my body. I am angry at myself, but I use the anger to fuel the dark side. I feel the Force come from the Jedi and I send it back to him, showing him that I, too, have a connection, and it is stronger than his. I launch a furious counterattack. I feel the Jedi beginning to tire, and triumph rises like a red mist before my eyes. I gain the advantage. I am winning. I will defeat him. I have been surprised at his skill, but now I am confident of victory. I will savor each moment of this battle.Even through his fatigue, his blows still have power. He is a large man with impressive strength. He will fall heavily, like a monument.I feel a savage pleasure course through me. His weakness feeds my power. I drive him back, spin around when he parries, drive him back again. The dust chokes my throat, but I don't notice it. Suddenly, the ship is here. And in the blink of an eye, I lose sight of the Jedi. Does he disappear in the dust? Flip past me? I am still not sure. Had I maneuvered him where I wanted him?Or had he maneuvered me? I see him make a gigantic leap and land on the ramp of the ship.No! I am after him, but I am too late. wrote:--Episode 1 Journal: Darth Maul

At the start of their fight, Maul remarks that Qui-Gon was able to read Maul's moves, that he was able to meet Maul's ferocity with his own, leap when Maul leaps, follow Maul when he turns etc. which concerns Maul, but after all that, Maul realises that the reason why the fight was closer than he expected because his wound slowed down his speed. Once Maul realised that his wound was stunting his speed, he gets angry at himself and uses his anger towards his own wound to fight more effectively, and then he starts beating Qui-Gon. So for a portion of that fight, Maul wasn't even aware that his wound was hindering him, and it only stopped being a hindrance the moment Maul consciously became aware of it and used his self-disgust for his wound to fight more intensly. Yes I know that it's been pointed out by MP that Maul says that his footwork has never been so brilliant, but that was before Maul became aware of his injury.

as well as an inferior connection and relationship with the Force. wrote:--CC

Fisto doesn't get any scaling from the combined power of Jinn and TPM Kenobi.

Ventress defeating Ventress isn’t relevant as Makashi was literally created to answer Shii-Cho’s weaknesses wrote:--CC

I never brought up Ventress defeating *Fisto, so you're attacking a strawman.

(not to mention she is also>Maul). wrote:--CC

Strongly disagree. 

We know Kenobi’s Soresu at this point is still exceptionally well developed, his connection to the Force has increased, he’s more experienced and basic things like his speed would have increased too. wrote:-CC

Based on what is CD Kenobi's Soresu is "well developed"? 

Moral of the story, Kit>>CD Kenobi>/~Maul>Jinn>TPM Kenobi wrote:-CC

The creator of Star Wars created a system that puts Maul above Fisto by identifying Maul as an 8 and Fisto and a 7, and the EU doesn't beg to differ with what that system says about Fisto in relation to Maul, so the actual moral of the story is Maul > Fisto > CD Kenobi ~ Jinn > TPM Kenobi. 

Join me sausage hour wrote:-CC

... Who?

Mauls injury was basically irrelevant.

Meatpants wrote:Mauls injury was basically irrelevant.

The Episode 1 journal depicts it as being clearly relevant. I am not saying that Maul was massively hindered, because the same source says it slowed him down "somewhat" and it was "almost imperceptible," but brushing it off as irrelevant would is silly given that Maul identifies his injury as the reason why Qui-Gon was able to give him a better fight than Maul wanted, hence why Maul says "If I leap, he is with me. If I turn, he follows me. He meets my ferocity with his own. His lightsaber swirls and hums, and several times comes closer than I like. It is because of my wound. It has slowed me down somewhat. It is almost imperceptible, but it is there. The Jedi has an advantage. I am not at my best." which screams that it's relevant. I brought up Maul's injury to respond to the remark that Maul is inferior to Fisto on the basis Qui-Gon stalemated on Tatooine.

@Latham2000

I've already addressed this with O-Siri a couple of pages ago, who argued along the same lines as you. To save time, here's a screenshot of my rebuttals to him:

This Latham gadger 

Writes nothing of any relevance and that entire rebuttal was basically a Maul acceptance piece.

All the while still doesn’t counter any of my points 

Fisto>>CD Kenobi>Maul>Jinn>TPM Kenobi

CD Kenobi>Maul

This gadger.

You don’t have the internal willpower necessary to have my kind of omniscience Meatpants.

Kenobi’s performances against Jango Fett, Durge & Ventress, two of which would defeat Maul as well, simply impress me a lot more than Jinn’s constant stream of underwhelming feats. Struggling with speeder bikes, getting caught off guard by non Force sensitives, struggling to jump on boulders, getting out fenced by Xanatos and Femur etc 

Legit his fight with Maul is the only thing keeping him as a high-tier Jedi

You're good for a laugh

Hey, I’m not the one with a clown for a profile pic:/

@CuckedCurry
 

@MeatPants

@MeatPants wrote:What you're doing here is only undermining Maul. Sith derive strength from pain, which is exactly what Maul does back at the ship when he delays giving treatment to his leg intentionally, and when he uses that pain on the way to Qui-Gon to "draw on his powers". It's why he refuses to show anything but his usual strength and speed despite feeling intense pain. It's why his footwork had never been better.

Maul only started drawing strength from the pain of his would after he realises that his injury is affecting his speed:

"It is because of my wound. It has slowed me down somewhat. It is almost imperceptible, but it is there. The Jedi has an advantage. I am not at my best. This realization sends more rage pumping into my body. I am angry at myself, but I use the anger to fuel the dark side." -- Episode 1 Journal: Darth Maul.

Maul's statement that his "footwork has never been so brilliant" and his wound initially affecting his speed are not mutually exclusive.

@MeatPants wrote:The wound had almost healed by the time he headed over for the duel, and he had been compensating for it the entire time by focusing on it to fuel his rage. So the injury proved only a very minor hinderance. Maul, who is a lightsaber perfectionist, sees every little detail as extremely crucial.

I wasn't arguing that it was a major hindrance, I was arguing that it was a minor hindrance because Maul himself admitted that it was minor. But the fact that it was identified as minor doesn't change the fact that's explicitly stated that to have slowed him down, and Maul only compensated for that after he realised that it was slowing him down and conciously got angry about it.

@MeatPants wrote:This is speculative at most, he just treats the pain as something he can dismiss anyway, "I feel the tearing wound in my left thigh, but I push it aside. Pain is another annoyance. It will not slow me down."

Aren't you quoting a different novel now? From the sounds of that quote, the wound isn't slowing Maul down because he was aware of the wound because of the pain and conciously used the pain to fuel to the dark side. In the 2001, Maul was initially unaware that his wound was affected his speed, and once he became aware of it, he got really pissed off and when started beating Qui-Gon.

@MeatPants wrote:Well no, I never stated he wasn't at his best. In none of the sources does Maul claim he's significantly disadvantaged; to him it's still a slight hinderance that gave Qui-Gon an advantage - but of course he had the advantage of getting the jump on Jinn and leaving him on the backfoot - it evens out really.

You know that I've said that Maul wasn't significantly disadvantaged by the wound.

@CuckedCurry

@CuckedCurry wrote:This Latham gadger 

Writes nothing of any relevance and that entire rebuttal was basically a Maul acceptance piece.

All the while still doesn’t counter any of my points

Doesn't sound like you were paying any attention to my rebuttal. The premise of your argument is that the EU disagrees with what Lucas/Gillard's system says about Fisto being below Maul, something that you've given no proof for because you can't hide the feeling that you don't want Fisto to be below TPM Maul. Lucas created Kit Fisto and Darth Maul and purposed Maul to be better than Fisto. All what the EU did for Fisto is give him more feats, and the EU itself is built on the movies. You also kept parroting that TPM Maul shouldn't be above Fisto because of he lost to padawans like Darsha and TPM Kenobi... Except that Maul didn't lose to Darsha, nor was it TPM Maul who fought her given that the novel takes place 6 months before TPM, and that same novel says that Maul's far more powerful than her, and the only padawan that actually beat Maul was Kenobi, and I quoted a source that attributes Kenobi's victory to Maul's arrogance because he stopped for a moment to taunt Kenobi. Are you sure that you feel confident in your claims?

@CuckedCurry wrote:Fisto>>CD Kenobi>Maul>Jinn>TPM Kenobi

mmmm, nah i disagree.

Bro I don’t feel confident in my claims, I feel certain in my statements. I know Fisto would beat Maul, because all the evidence points to this being the case. No Maul acceptance speed will be sufficient enough for me to change my mind, because I’ve accepted that Maul is incredibly underwhelming. It’s time that you did the same

I did read your response, and basically found nothing meaty to respond to, it was basically a Maul wank piece. Ignoring important points like connection v skill based fighting, Kenobi’s improvements and Fisto’s vast domination of CD Kenobi caused me to just ignore most of it. And the Gillard/Lucas shit was the icing on the cake laddy