ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace

Kilius wrote:

MP wrote:What arguments can be given for Mace outside of Lucas/Gillard and his Yoda accolades?

In his normal mindset he's humbled Ventress 3 months ABG with the same efficiency Dooku did to her 1-2 month ABG.

Dooku flicked his finger and Ventress was defeated. Mace fought a much weaker version of Ventress and a Ventress that was tired and wasn't able to rag doll her in the fashion that Dooku did. (I'm referring to Dooku's encounter with Ventress in Dark Rendezvous btw)

Blade_of_Dorin wrote:

Kilius wrote:

MP wrote:What arguments can be given for Mace outside of Lucas/Gillard and his Yoda accolades?

In his normal mindset he's humbled Ventress 3 months ABG with the same efficiency Dooku did to her 1-2 month ABG.

Dooku flicked his finger and Ventress was defeated. Mace fought a much weaker version of Ventress and a Ventress that was tired and wasn't able to rag doll her in the fashion that Dooku did. (I'm referring to Dooku's encounter with Ventress in Dark Rendezvous btw)

Just because it isn't shown that Mace can ragdoll Ventress doesn't mean he can't. It honestly depends on mindset. And Mace isn't the type of character to ragdoll his oponent anyway, based on feats against oponents like Grievous etc. He usually holds back. Sources  state that Ventress was no match for Windu. So whether or not Mace can ragdoll Ventress doesn't matter since he still would have stomped her anyway had she not retreated from their fight.

@Kilius

1. Dooku choked her when she wasn't expecting an attack. Y:DR takes place in 19 BBY going by The Essential Readers Companion and Season 4 Ventress gave Dooku a decent fight in 21 BBY and she's at best equal in power to Y:DR Ventress. Dooku choking her with her guard down isn't any different than Sidious choking Dooku across the galaxy with his guard down and most don't think Sidious can casually dismiss him when prepared.

Which instance are you referencing for Ventress giving Dooku a decent fight? Also, I wasn't referring to Yoda: Dark Rendevous but rather TCW S3 where Ventress massively backpedals in sabers and then gets ragdolled. Probably should have made it clearer which instance I was referring to.

2. DMB debunked the quote a long time ago.

Really? Link, please?

Mace had her conceding defeat in just a few panels when he clearly stated his intentions to take her alive, which seriously calls into question he was seriously pressed into going all out.

Ventress conceding her inferiority to Mace doesn't prove she can't press him to go all out. All it proves is that she's inferior. As for the fight itself, nothing can be gauged from it. As you said it's only a few panels with neither really proving vast superiority (Windu does have the edge though).

As for him intending to take her alive, that's blatantly not true. This is what I assume you're referring to:

"Indeed. Why is that, I wonder? You are a stranger to me. You are skilled -- although how you came to be skilled I don't know. There is darkness in you, but you are not Sith. Do not assume, however, that we are equals. We are not. Neither your weapon nor your skills are enough. I would prefer you alive to answer my questions, but I will kill you if you insist. Please believe that."

This does not disprove the quote in question. All Mace says is that his preference is to have Asajj alive but that doesn't mean that he isn't having to go all out and using all of his skills to defeat her especially since we have a source which clearly states he did. In fact, Mace even says Asajj will end up dead if she continues their duel. If Mace can stomp her and doesn't require the use of all his skills to defeat her then why doesn't he just go with his preference by disarming her and then arresting her? The comic actually supports the notion that Mace legitimately needed to use his full strength and kill Asajj to beat her. So far I have to say the evidence against the fight hasn't been very compelling.

3. In OCW Dooku beat him with little difficulty in a spar.

I'm glad you're not disputing this at least.

In the same medium Mace one shot him when the General was in a battle ready stance.

With TK... (not in sabers) and it's been retconned.

In LoE Dooku admitted Grievous hardpressed him at times in the their spars and in the same novel Mace beat him with moderate difficulty in short period of time.

In LoE Dooku admitted there were some occasions where he was hardpressed in spars suggesting that the vast majority of the times he wasn't which aligns with their fight in OCW. On the other hand, Grievous is legitimately displayed as a threat to Mace. Also, Mace didn't defeat Grievous. The two battled fairly evenly despite an environmental disadvantage on the general's part and Mace-wielding an incredibly unpredictable style which Grievous and his bodyguards are vulnerable to. The general began to copy Vapaad and by that point in the duel, Mace admitted it would be prolonged and the decided to BFR him off the car with TK which isn't a legitimate victory (or any kind of victory for that matter).

Now there isn't a comparison between these two performances in all honesty. You can't really gather anything from Grievous's performances against Windu and Dooku given his inconsistent nature. If this was Grievous fighting at his best (the Grievous that could press Dooku) then the two are comparable yeah. If not then Dooku comes off looking better but there's really no way of knowing whether the general was at his best or not.

Across both mediums they both had either moderate or little difficulty. Either way their performances were comparable in each respective source.

So now you're comparing different mediums? I originally jumped in to respond to the OCW and LoE comparison as I don't believe the two are very comparable. I do largely agree that taking purely OCW performances the two are comparable. The thing is Mace's has been retconned whereas Dooku's hasn't and now there isn't a comparison to be drawn at all imo.

4. Dooku knows everything about Grievous but Grievous doesn't know everything about Dooku.

Obviously. Though given Grievous trained with and consistently sparred with Dooku he should have some knowledge of his style.

It's stated in LoE that Dooku kept some secrets to himself 'just in case' and despite this he's still challenged by him occasionally.

Yeah but there's no reason for him to abuse those advantages in spars though given the entire point of a spar is to keep yourself and your opponent in practice. Take for example Dooku and Savage Oppress. Dooku deliberately didn't teach Savage how to defend against Lightning to keep an edge over his student but it's not as if he consistently spammed that in spars. This is very much a similar scenario. There's no reason for Dooku to abuse his power over Grievous when the idea is for them both to keep in shape/improve.

This is also ignoring the fact that you failed to respond to part of my argument where I pointed out that Dooku was just exploiting flaws in Grievous's style in OCW and not abusing any kind of failsafe he'd built into Grievous's fighting style.

OT Mace.

Both sides lowballing Ventress to achieve their selfish goals. Join the third position, Asajj beats both.

Windu can contend with KFV per the ROTS Game 

Pretty sure the cutscenes show Windu getting absolutely pummeled by Anakin.

Yeah, they do.

Blocking more strikes than Dooku did in the film tho 

I merged the duplicate thread with the original, @Better_than_dooku

Imo it is roughly a draw by Yoda: Dark Rendezvous. Mace at his peak right before facing Sidious would win, though.

Bump

Dooku beats any iteration of Mace before the latter finds out Palpatine is a Sith Lord. After that point, Mace can probably beat Dooku.

RotS Mace > RotS Dooku > any other Mace

Mace stomps

I believe Mace was superior to the Count at every stage after TPM including TPM. By ROTS he is a 9 and Dooku an 8 leaving no question as to the victor

I question whether RotS Mace can beat Dooku. I think most would agree that without vaapad that Mace would lose to Dooku. Once vaapad is allowed however, everyone agrees that Mace wins easily. But would vaapad give mace a win? Now my understanding of vaapad may be incorrect but my understanding is that you reflect the darkness and dark power of your enemy against them. However since Vaapad's power is derived from the power of your opponent you cannot surpass them without a second source to give you power exceeding your opponents. So Mace could match Sidious's power by relfecting that power against him but was unable to overcome Sidious until he drew upon a second source of power(Anakin's fear). Mace would be weaker fighting Dooku because he's drawing upon a weaker power than Sidious. So with no second source to draw upon I don't see how Mace does anything but stalemate Dooku if he uses Vaapad. Now I also think that this could mean Mace could theoretically stalemate but never beat any sith lord more powerful than himself.

I also believe Mace isn't a 9 unless he uses Vaapad.

Yo saying shit like “Mace without Vaapad” is like saying Dooku without Makashi

Vaapad draws from internal darkness not external btw

Mace being equal to Yoda is one of the most established facts in the mythos and they are all from TPM up to ROTS so yeah, including the time he hadn't developed Vaapad completely. That and the fact that Vaapad draws from inner darkness means Mace is legit Yoda level, even in sheer force strength

BaratoBhajji wrote:Vaapad draws from internal darkness not external btw

Yes but it has also been shown to channel and redirect the dark powers and emotions of those around the users ie: Sidious and Anakin

LOTL wrote:Mace being equal to Yoda is one of the most established facts in the mythos and they are all from TPM up to ROTS so yeah, including the time he hadn't developed Vaapad completely. That and the fact that Vaapad draws from inner darkness means Mace is legit Yoda level, even in sheer force strength

Their rate of growth isn't the same throughout the course of the war. Just because Mace is Yoda's equal in TPM doesn't mean he's his equal in AotC or TCW season 3 for example.