Mustafar Obi Wan vs IH Anakin(pre-transformation)

Let go Kenobi = Utapau Kenobi. He was hindered from the beginning, after he let go he unhindered himself and even then only to a certain point. He's racked with guilt and heartache, he put it aside temporarily and brought himself back to his Utapau mindset and let the Force take over because he's the consummate Jedi. He isn't weighed down by guilt or confliction when he's fighting Grievous, Dooku, Maul, or Ventress or have any trouble finding his inner peace with the Force. After the fight is over he's back to feeling guilty meaning he hasn't moved on completely and calling into serious question of 'Let go' being a permanent character development boost rather than a temporarily  suppression of emotions. 

OT: Kenobi as of RotS has Anakin's number at any point.

TheNuisanceBird wrote:

LOTL wrote:

TheNuisanceBird wrote:

LOTL wrote:

TheNuisanceBird wrote:

LOTL wrote:This notion of Anakin being "hugely" hindered is one notion that I am itching to get rid of. Anyone care to present the best argument in favor of it so that I can begin?

Well for starters the ROTS novel states how Anakin hadn't eat or slept for several days and before Padme landed it was described how he felt weakened in the Force with the dragon symbolism. 

If we go by Legends Anakin's feats leading up to ROTS and during the Invisible Hand fight all point to him being able to overpower Kenobi under normal circumstances. Anakin being hindered explains why Kenobi was able to match his Force push in the film even though every one of Anakin's best TK feats > Kenobi's. 

Even in the novel Anakin TK's Kenobi into walls at least twice and the mechanical manipulation of Anakin's arm wouldn't have happened to Invisible Hand Anakin. 

At the very least I feel comfortable saying that baseline ROTS Anakin > ROTS Kenobi on neutral ground.

The not eating and not sleeping applies to KFV too. Or office Anakin, or the Anakin that comes to Mustafar and quotes have all those versions of Anakin as more powerful than ever before. Not to mention, not sleeping for days basically does almost nothing to even trainee Bane so I doubt it would do anything to infinitely superior people like Anakin

Lastly, Obi Wan too has not slept for a long time( probably since his battle with Grevious) and certainly there is no indication that he ate anything since we pretty much have his timeline accounted for. At the very least, even he has not received much rest or nourishment at all. Lone Wolf notes that he is suffering from tiring for the past few days and that takes place a day after the movie, so it encompasses the Grevious timeline, meaning he has not gotten any replenishment since then. So, yeah, this excuse is pretty thin

It is also stated in countless quotes that he is growing more powerful, is already more powerful, and becomes more powerful later on, or at the timeline so I also find the "dragon" part of it pretty thin too. Not to mention, absolutely nowhere is it stated, implied or even reasonably hinted at that the "dragon" part on Mustafar weakens or hinders him and we have multiple quotes that put him as more powerful than before, or growing more powerful etc. after that part in the novel. Theories that quite frankly are a bit reaching are not as important as the intent of the statements that portray Anakin's level pretty clearly

Please elaborate. Other than the Theta storm feat( which I chalk to Anakin accessing his latent potential) and the handling of Dooku, Anakin has little more in terms of battle accomplishments that is more impressive. I'll also mention that he has been both force one-shotted and physically beaten by Obi Wan before, though both have circumstances in play, it is still pretty impressive for Obi Wan. Also, in terms of strict battle feats I find the feat of handling Maul and Savage a year before his prime to be almost as impressive as Anakin beating Dooku

Yeah, that has nothing to do with overpowering Obi Wan's force barrier but catching him off guard. Obi Wan defends his force pushes later on with not much trouble at all.

Yeah, I cannot agree but then that is not relevant to Anakin being hindered here which is the point

The ROTS still has a part where Anakin experiences dizziness because of his lack of sleep/food.

Anakin not sleeping or eating in those cases doesn't matter as much because prior to Knightfall it's stated that him opening his furnace heart is basically himself giving himself permission to use his full power so when he went to the temple these factors likely didn't apply. Obi-Wan likely was eating and sleeping in the days Anakin wasn't when they were on Coruscant and the time frame between him getting shot down by Cody and confronting Anakin on Mustafar at most is probably a day. That's not as bad as several and even then he was picked up by Bail and Yoda so there's a possibility he at least eat there. 

The quotes I remember refer to him during Knightfall and in the film when Sidious says his powers are growing stronger are before Mustafar where going by George Lucas's line editing of the novel and Nick Gillard's commentary they had to nerf Anakin. Hayden Christensen said behind that scenes that there had to be this exchange of power so Anakin wouldn't look better than Obi-Wan even though he was supposed to. In the ROTS novel it's said how Anakin feels poisoned by the Force after killing Jedi and the CIS council. This would explain why his physical augmentation from the IH is absent in the Mustafar fight considering that while Anakin does push Kenobi back there's literally a moment where Obi-Wan manages to overpower him when they grab each others arms.  

What do you mean Anakin doesn't have TK feats that put him above Kenobi? Anakin's been able to tear apart a giant spider droid, ragdoll Ventress once he got serious, shatter a 30 x 90 meter dome with a Force scream, and in the ROTS graphic novel Force push Dooku. The time Anakin got sent flying when he was about to attack Ventress doesn't count as that wasn't a direct attack to his Force wall and it was when he was going through the air. If you're referring to their fight in TCW that's a heavily nerfed version of Anakin that got blitzed by a SPED monkey. 

Obi-Wan deflects several of his blasts but during Anakin's Force waves he is sent back at least twice. In a straight up Force battle Anakin should win against Kenobi. 

If we're going to say that Anakin's stronger on Mustafar we first have to establish that Kenobi was basically an equal to a version of Anakin better than the one that two-shotted Cin Drallig and severely outclassed Dooku. I don't see that being realistic.

I get the impression that you have gone through ShootingNova's blog on the matter and are almost quoting it here. While it was a great blog for its time, it is mostly outdated pretty heavily for the current era

1. The Lone Wolf refers to the "past few days" so yeah, it is several.

Besides these are very, very minute factors because as mentioned, even trainee Bane can go without sleep( or food?) for that many number of days and function well.

2. No, those quote are not only just before the battle, they are during the battle, after the dragon bit, etc. Absolutely nowhere does Gillard say they have to nerf Anakin, on the contrary, he explicitly says this

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/why-was-obi-wan-kenobi-able-to-contend-with-darth--1901550/?page=1

Go to his comment:

https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/5d8ovp/nic_gillard_just_revealed_that_there_are_9_forms/?st=ivljdm4d&sh=aec87fa6

He explicitly says that Vader is still a 9, it is still something that you have to deal with. Meaning, even in spite of Anakin's mental hindrance( which is what he is calling as bad for him because he hasn't gone to level 9 the right way) he is "still a level 9" in a way that "still has to be dealt with"

Azronger's arguments contain most of the other quotes on the matter

Nowhere in the ROTS novel is it written that Anakin feels poisoned after killing the Jedi whatsoever. Please cite the instance. The only thing in the novel tht is conclusive on the matter is that Anakin muses that can feel his power growing "after" the scene you mention with the "dragon" here

Please quote what Hayden said. Exactly. I would also remind you that a novel is more authoritative than an actor's commentary

2. Obi Wan is able to effortlessly lift and cloak 40m ships, can push multiple trees that are 40-50m in length, effortlessly beat Ventress in TCW( Folini confirms that she was no threat to him whatsoever), can visibly resist Ventress's force attacks better than Anakin( Anakin gets sent flying whereas Obi Wan is pushed only a short way) in the same story, and can force push both Maul and Savage at the same time. Note that Savage has force choked both Dooku and Ventress before

3. Please go through all the blogs

4. Why? You have not given any explanation for it being the case

I'm mainly going by the ROTS novel and what's been said about Anakin around that time. 

So sure it's several days but I still don't see how the lack of sleep or food is a minor factor where the book has Anakin getting dizzy. 

I've read those blogs and seen the saberproject interview. He lists Anakin as a 9 there as well as the ROTS behind the scenes. I'm not saying Anakin during Mustafar isn't a 9, due to Kenobi constantly having to get away from him he clearly is. My point is that going by the ROTS novel which was line edited by Lucas Anakin is clearly functioning better on the IH than he is on Mustafar. 

It is written in there. I unfortunately don't have my copy with me but it's described how Anakin feels like the dragon stuck it's fangs into his heel. If I hadn't left the book at my apartment before the virus I'd give the quote. Even considering Anakin feeling his power growing that makes absolutely no sense if Kenobi was able to indirectly get past his Force wall and match him in the TK stand off. The only explanation for Obi-Wan being able to do that is Anakin's Force abilities not being used at their normal capacity. 

Hayden says it here at 2:47

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmJ9PCmBl_4


All of those things are things ROTS Anakin could do. If it's unclear I'm going by Legends as I've previously mentioned TCW isn't the best source to try and scale stuff. Anakin gets blitzed by a SPED monkey in one fight and for some reason can't use the Force to pull back his underwater mask to himself. 

I'm saying that we first have to be convinced that Obi-Wan can consistently equal the supposed strongest version of Anakin in the Force which he does in the film. The ROTS novel makes note on how Dooku had to spend more of his Force reserves parrying and blocking each strike from Anakin than it did to toss Kenobi across the room. 

It makes absolutely no sense to say that Anakin was unhindered during his Force contention with Kenobi, much less that he was stronger at that point. 

Mustafar Anakin AT THE LEAST was hindered in the Force.

Bro, sorry, most of this is ranting about how Obi Wan "cannot" match Vader because he is not supposed to because of some past feats etc.

I'll talk about the Dooku fight because it is there that Obi Wan is taking a lot of heat.

First of all, Dooku did "not" overpower Obi Wan's force barrier while throwing him, he merely caught him off guard:

When the super droids got in the way, they cut them down. At last they reached the first set of stairs to the balcony. As the Count started up, Obi-Wan disengaged and ran to the second set of stairs to attack him from behind. Climbing the stairs, it cut down two of the super battle droids.

He can’t fight in two directions at once, Obi-Wan thought as he came up behind the Count. If we can —

Count Dooku half-turned and raised a hand. A rush of dark power lifted Obi-Wan off his feet and choked the air from his lungs. He reached for the Force to counter Dooku, but the attack had been too sudden. He saw Dooku twist, kicking out at Anakin with all his weight behind it. Anakin fell backward, and Dooku hurled Obi-Wan over the edge of the balcony.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith Young Novel

Now, I have seen the argument that the Count managed to "catch him off guard" because of his speed and superior precognition. Not the case. He was familiar with Obi Wan's form then:

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t3075-obi-wan-vs-count-dooku-obi-wan-lost-because-dooku-was-familiar-with-his-form

So the "power" that Dooku exerts is simply that of throwing a weight of 80 kg across the room. In no way is he "overpowering Obi Wan" or anything, and his familiarity with Obi Wan's form is what allows him the ability to catch him off guard. Obviously he is going to employ more energy in countering Anakin's force augmented lightsaber clashes than simply throwing 80 kg across the room.

You may not have heard of this but I'll elaborate: In the PT era there is almost no material that has force users "overpowering" each other's force barriers and there is literally no material wherein a force defense can be generated by willing it to without gesturing. There is no invisible cocoon that protects force users all the time, force users have to erect an active defense by gesturing. Literally every example in the PT era supports the point. Also if you look at the blog, you'll notice that even Palpatine cannot "overpower" Maul's force barrier, he has to exploit a flaw and catch him off guard to force push him. So, evidently, if even Palpatine cannot do that to Maul then Dooku doing that to Obi Wan is clearly nonsensical.

Ziggy posted a quote that says that Obi Wan and Dooku were getting tired while Anakin was growing stronger. While that may be true, we have no indication to what extent Obi Wan was getting tired in comparison to the Count. Obi Wan might have been tiring at a rate that is half that of the Count's tiring rate and the quote still is correct.

Now that you have conceded that Anakin on Mustafar is a 9, have a look at that too:

His style has changed a bit since Episode II, when he was only a level seven. On this he's a level nine.' For the curious, Gillard does not reveal any Jedi who has achieved level ten. The highest is nine, occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference."

All level 9 combatants are virtually equal to each other meaning that only factors that would normally be minutiae are relevant. Meaning Mustafar Anakin, even if he is hindered, he is still virtually equal to almost any other Anakin, meaning if MFV were to combat KFV, it would be factors like the environment etc. that would determine the winner, not the power level.

Meaning, even if MFV is hindered, he is probably hindered by such a small amount that it is not even worth mentioning.

Bro the video has almost established my point. The "exchange of power" that Hayden talks about that "Nick' made? Nick in the very next shot tells us what that "exchange of power" is then:

Hayden in this film has moved up to a level 9. He has gone past Obi. The difference between a level 8 and level 9 really is the dark side. You have to go through each level in order to attain the next level. If you do it too quick, you are gonna get in trouble. So that is how I work on that. You know, his downfall is gonna be aggression.

Let me also put this quote in:

He took Force LSD. That's what made him a 9. That's dangerous because he hasn't done it the right way. But it's still a nine. It's still something you have to deal with.

Yeah, so Anakin has "cheated" and gone to the dark side. He has access to all the power that the dark side gives hence Gillard making the comment that "It is still a 9. It is still something you have to deal with". He has the ability of a level 9 combatant. However Gillard then making the comment "You have to go through each level in order to attain the next level. If you do it too quick, you are gonna get in trouble" clearly specifies exactly "what" has been "exchanged" here

He has cheated. Hence by cheating, he has exchanged his mental stability for power. Because he has gone through it too quick, he gets power for sure, but he is also going to get into trouble. That it is also "dangerous to him because he hasn't done it the right way". But unlike empty theories here, Gillard exactly says what is going to be Anakin's problem:








Go through it once

But that’s not really true, Obi-Wan thought as he ducked and wove and parried. Both he and Anakin felt the anguish of their need to kill the other. But Anakin had turned to the dark side, and despair and pain strengthened the dark side. It gave him an advantage Obi-Wan could not match. Unless he let go of his own despair and let the living Force move him — the Force that bound all living things together, even Obi-Wan and this new, deadly, evil Anakin.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith Young Novel

Obi Wan explicitly comments that Mustafar Anakin>IH Anakin.

But yeah, there is more:

The two struggled but Anakin had grown too strong. Obi Wan was forced to release Anakin's weapon.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith Movie Storybook

Obi Wan is referring to Anakin's actualized, manifested power here. What's more, Obi Wan has also observed Anakin in the IH battle:

The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground.

Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step. Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him. Dooku's breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength-not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing-And only then did Dooku understand that he'd been suckered.

Skywalker's Shien ready-stance had been a ruse, as had his Ataro gymnastics; the boy was a Djem So stylist, and as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen. His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head. Especially not while also defending against a second attacker.


Credit: Revenge of the Sith Main Novel

The above conversation is pretty much how this whole bit has played out over time. Can the Anakin gang clearly state what evidence it requires so that I can finish this whole thing? Name it. I can pretty much certainly comment on it that in case the request is genuine that some evidence or other that supports my version of the events will be there. Because I firmly believe that that is the correct version of events in the lore.

Or you can answer the following:

What is Lucas's intention? He clearly says that the dark side is a pathway to more power, quickly. He clearly has Anakin making comments like "I am more powerful than the Chancellor" on Mustafar. He then has the most energetic and intense battle being shown on screen. Quick, fast and more powerful than anything we have seen from these two. Then I read the novel. Everything there clearly has Anakin being more powerful. The objective narration says it, he says it, Obi Wan says it, everything says it.

I concluded that: "Yeah, Anakin is arrogant, but he is clearly more powerful, I mean that cannot have been made more clear"

I hate employing arguments like the above but seeing as how people are so bent on intent, I might as well try even that. Even there, I cannot point out one single reason for Anakin to be noticeably hindered at all in the battle.

At least bring new interesting arguments into the mix. I really enjoyed the "Vader can't sense Obi Wan hence he is hindered". It was innovative and a pretty fresh take on the matter. It was a pleasure to reply to that, not only because of the argument itself, but also because interestingly it serves my point better, that Mustafar Vader really is more powerful than before

LOTL wrote:

TheNuisanceBird wrote:

LOTL wrote:

TheNuisanceBird wrote:

LOTL wrote:

TheNuisanceBird wrote:

LOTL wrote:This notion of Anakin being "hugely" hindered is one notion that I am itching to get rid of. Anyone care to present the best argument in favor of it so that I can begin?

Well for starters the ROTS novel states how Anakin hadn't eat or slept for several days and before Padme landed it was described how he felt weakened in the Force with the dragon symbolism. 

If we go by Legends Anakin's feats leading up to ROTS and during the Invisible Hand fight all point to him being able to overpower Kenobi under normal circumstances. Anakin being hindered explains why Kenobi was able to match his Force push in the film even though every one of Anakin's best TK feats > Kenobi's. 

Even in the novel Anakin TK's Kenobi into walls at least twice and the mechanical manipulation of Anakin's arm wouldn't have happened to Invisible Hand Anakin. 

At the very least I feel comfortable saying that baseline ROTS Anakin > ROTS Kenobi on neutral ground.

The not eating and not sleeping applies to KFV too. Or office Anakin, or the Anakin that comes to Mustafar and quotes have all those versions of Anakin as more powerful than ever before. Not to mention, not sleeping for days basically does almost nothing to even trainee Bane so I doubt it would do anything to infinitely superior people like Anakin

Lastly, Obi Wan too has not slept for a long time( probably since his battle with Grevious) and certainly there is no indication that he ate anything since we pretty much have his timeline accounted for. At the very least, even he has not received much rest or nourishment at all. Lone Wolf notes that he is suffering from tiring for the past few days and that takes place a day after the movie, so it encompasses the Grevious timeline, meaning he has not gotten any replenishment since then. So, yeah, this excuse is pretty thin

It is also stated in countless quotes that he is growing more powerful, is already more powerful, and becomes more powerful later on, or at the timeline so I also find the "dragon" part of it pretty thin too. Not to mention, absolutely nowhere is it stated, implied or even reasonably hinted at that the "dragon" part on Mustafar weakens or hinders him and we have multiple quotes that put him as more powerful than before, or growing more powerful etc. after that part in the novel. Theories that quite frankly are a bit reaching are not as important as the intent of the statements that portray Anakin's level pretty clearly

Please elaborate. Other than the Theta storm feat( which I chalk to Anakin accessing his latent potential) and the handling of Dooku, Anakin has little more in terms of battle accomplishments that is more impressive. I'll also mention that he has been both force one-shotted and physically beaten by Obi Wan before, though both have circumstances in play, it is still pretty impressive for Obi Wan. Also, in terms of strict battle feats I find the feat of handling Maul and Savage a year before his prime to be almost as impressive as Anakin beating Dooku

Yeah, that has nothing to do with overpowering Obi Wan's force barrier but catching him off guard. Obi Wan defends his force pushes later on with not much trouble at all.

Yeah, I cannot agree but then that is not relevant to Anakin being hindered here which is the point

The ROTS still has a part where Anakin experiences dizziness because of his lack of sleep/food.

Anakin not sleeping or eating in those cases doesn't matter as much because prior to Knightfall it's stated that him opening his furnace heart is basically himself giving himself permission to use his full power so when he went to the temple these factors likely didn't apply. Obi-Wan likely was eating and sleeping in the days Anakin wasn't when they were on Coruscant and the time frame between him getting shot down by Cody and confronting Anakin on Mustafar at most is probably a day. That's not as bad as several and even then he was picked up by Bail and Yoda so there's a possibility he at least eat there. 

The quotes I remember refer to him during Knightfall and in the film when Sidious says his powers are growing stronger are before Mustafar where going by George Lucas's line editing of the novel and Nick Gillard's commentary they had to nerf Anakin. Hayden Christensen said behind that scenes that there had to be this exchange of power so Anakin wouldn't look better than Obi-Wan even though he was supposed to. In the ROTS novel it's said how Anakin feels poisoned by the Force after killing Jedi and the CIS council. This would explain why his physical augmentation from the IH is absent in the Mustafar fight considering that while Anakin does push Kenobi back there's literally a moment where Obi-Wan manages to overpower him when they grab each others arms.  

What do you mean Anakin doesn't have TK feats that put him above Kenobi? Anakin's been able to tear apart a giant spider droid, ragdoll Ventress once he got serious, shatter a 30 x 90 meter dome with a Force scream, and in the ROTS graphic novel Force push Dooku. The time Anakin got sent flying when he was about to attack Ventress doesn't count as that wasn't a direct attack to his Force wall and it was when he was going through the air. If you're referring to their fight in TCW that's a heavily nerfed version of Anakin that got blitzed by a SPED monkey. 

Obi-Wan deflects several of his blasts but during Anakin's Force waves he is sent back at least twice. In a straight up Force battle Anakin should win against Kenobi. 

If we're going to say that Anakin's stronger on Mustafar we first have to establish that Kenobi was basically an equal to a version of Anakin better than the one that two-shotted Cin Drallig and severely outclassed Dooku. I don't see that being realistic.

I get the impression that you have gone through ShootingNova's blog on the matter and are almost quoting it here. While it was a great blog for its time, it is mostly outdated pretty heavily for the current era

1. The Lone Wolf refers to the "past few days" so yeah, it is several.

Besides these are very, very minute factors because as mentioned, even trainee Bane can go without sleep( or food?) for that many number of days and function well.

2. No, those quote are not only just before the battle, they are during the battle, after the dragon bit, etc. Absolutely nowhere does Gillard say they have to nerf Anakin, on the contrary, he explicitly says this

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/why-was-obi-wan-kenobi-able-to-contend-with-darth--1901550/?page=1

Go to his comment:

https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/5d8ovp/nic_gillard_just_revealed_that_there_are_9_forms/?st=ivljdm4d&sh=aec87fa6

He explicitly says that Vader is still a 9, it is still something that you have to deal with. Meaning, even in spite of Anakin's mental hindrance( which is what he is calling as bad for him because he hasn't gone to level 9 the right way) he is "still a level 9" in a way that "still has to be dealt with"

Azronger's arguments contain most of the other quotes on the matter

Nowhere in the ROTS novel is it written that Anakin feels poisoned after killing the Jedi whatsoever. Please cite the instance. The only thing in the novel tht is conclusive on the matter is that Anakin muses that can feel his power growing "after" the scene you mention with the "dragon" here

Please quote what Hayden said. Exactly. I would also remind you that a novel is more authoritative than an actor's commentary

2. Obi Wan is able to effortlessly lift and cloak 40m ships, can push multiple trees that are 40-50m in length, effortlessly beat Ventress in TCW( Folini confirms that she was no threat to him whatsoever), can visibly resist Ventress's force attacks better than Anakin( Anakin gets sent flying whereas Obi Wan is pushed only a short way) in the same story, and can force push both Maul and Savage at the same time. Note that Savage has force choked both Dooku and Ventress before

3. Please go through all the blogs

4. Why? You have not given any explanation for it being the case

I'm mainly going by the ROTS novel and what's been said about Anakin around that time. 

So sure it's several days but I still don't see how the lack of sleep or food is a minor factor where the book has Anakin getting dizzy. 

I've read those blogs and seen the saberproject interview. He lists Anakin as a 9 there as well as the ROTS behind the scenes. I'm not saying Anakin during Mustafar isn't a 9, due to Kenobi constantly having to get away from him he clearly is. My point is that going by the ROTS novel which was line edited by Lucas Anakin is clearly functioning better on the IH than he is on Mustafar. 

It is written in there. I unfortunately don't have my copy with me but it's described how Anakin feels like the dragon stuck it's fangs into his heel. If I hadn't left the book at my apartment before the virus I'd give the quote. Even considering Anakin feeling his power growing that makes absolutely no sense if Kenobi was able to indirectly get past his Force wall and match him in the TK stand off. The only explanation for Obi-Wan being able to do that is Anakin's Force abilities not being used at their normal capacity. 

Hayden says it here at 2:47

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmJ9PCmBl_4


All of those things are things ROTS Anakin could do. If it's unclear I'm going by Legends as I've previously mentioned TCW isn't the best source to try and scale stuff. Anakin gets blitzed by a SPED monkey in one fight and for some reason can't use the Force to pull back his underwater mask to himself. 

I'm saying that we first have to be convinced that Obi-Wan can consistently equal the supposed strongest version of Anakin in the Force which he does in the film. The ROTS novel makes note on how Dooku had to spend more of his Force reserves parrying and blocking each strike from Anakin than it did to toss Kenobi across the room. 

It makes absolutely no sense to say that Anakin was unhindered during his Force contention with Kenobi, much less that he was stronger at that point. 

Mustafar Anakin AT THE LEAST was hindered in the Force.

Bro, sorry, most of this is ranting about how Obi Wan "cannot" match Vader because he is not supposed to because of some past feats etc.

I'll talk about the Dooku fight because it is there that Obi Wan is taking a lot of heat.

First of all, Dooku did "not" overpower Obi Wan's force barrier while throwing him, he merely caught him off guard:

When the super droids got in the way, they cut them down. At last they reached the first set of stairs to the balcony. As the Count started up, Obi-Wan disengaged and ran to the second set of stairs to attack him from behind. Climbing the stairs, it cut down two of the super battle droids.

He can’t fight in two directions at once, Obi-Wan thought as he came up behind the Count. If we can —

Count Dooku half-turned and raised a hand. A rush of dark power lifted Obi-Wan off his feet and choked the air from his lungs. He reached for the Force to counter Dooku, but the attack had been too sudden. He saw Dooku twist, kicking out at Anakin with all his weight behind it. Anakin fell backward, and Dooku hurled Obi-Wan over the edge of the balcony.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith Young Novel

Now, I have seen the argument that the Count managed to "catch him off guard" because of his speed and superior precognition. Not the case. He was familiar with Obi Wan's form then:

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t3075-obi-wan-vs-count-dooku-obi-wan-lost-because-dooku-was-familiar-with-his-form

So the "power" that Dooku exerts is simply that of throwing a weight of 80 kg across the room. In no way is he "overpowering Obi Wan" or anything, and his familiarity with Obi Wan's form is what allows him the ability to catch him off guard. Obviously he is going to employ more energy in countering Anakin's force augmented lightsaber clashes than simply throwing 80 kg across the room.

You may not have heard of this but I'll elaborate: In the PT era there is almost no material that has force users "overpowering" each other's force barriers and there is literally no material wherein a force defense can be generated by willing it to without gesturing. There is no invisible cocoon that protects force users all the time, force users have to erect an active defense by gesturing. Literally every example in the PT era supports the point. Also if you look at the blog, you'll notice that even Palpatine cannot "overpower" Maul's force barrier, he has to exploit a flaw and catch him off guard to force push him. So, evidently, if even Palpatine cannot do that to Maul then Dooku doing that to Obi Wan is clearly nonsensical.

Ziggy posted a quote that says that Obi Wan and Dooku were getting tired while Anakin was growing stronger. While that may be true, we have no indication to what extent Obi Wan was getting tired in comparison to the Count. Obi Wan might have been tiring at a rate that is half that of the Count's tiring rate and the quote still is correct.

Now that you have conceded that Anakin on Mustafar is a 9, have a look at that too:

His style has changed a bit since Episode II, when he was only a level seven. On this he's a level nine.' For the curious, Gillard does not reveal any Jedi who has achieved level ten. The highest is nine, occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference."

All level 9 combatants are virtually equal to each other meaning that only factors that would normally be minutiae are relevant. Meaning Mustafar Anakin, even if he is hindered, he is still virtually equal to almost any other Anakin, meaning if MFV were to combat KFV, it would be factors like the environment etc. that would determine the winner, not the power level.

Meaning, even if MFV is hindered, he is probably hindered by such a small amount that it is not even worth mentioning.

Bro the video has almost established my point. The "exchange of power" that Hayden talks about that "Nick' made? Nick in the very next shot tells us what that "exchange of power" is then:

Hayden in this film has moved up to a level 9. He has gone past Obi. The difference between a level 8 and level 9 really is the dark side. You have to go through each level in order to attain the next level. If you do it too quick, you are gonna get in trouble. So that is how I work on that. You know, his downfall is gonna be aggression.

Let me also put this quote in:

He took Force LSD. That's what made him a 9. That's dangerous because he hasn't done it the right way. But it's still a nine. It's still something you have to deal with.

Yeah, so Anakin has "cheated" and gone to the dark side. He has access to all the power that the dark side gives hence Gillard making the comment that "It is still a 9. It is still something you have to deal with". He has the ability of a level 9 combatant. However Gillard then making the comment "You have to go through each level in order to attain the next level. If you do it too quick, you are gonna get in trouble" clearly specifies exactly "what" has been "exchanged" here

He has cheated. Hence by cheating, he has exchanged his mental stability for power. Because he has gone through it too quick, he gets power for sure, but he is also going to get into trouble. That it is also "dangerous to him because he hasn't done it the right way". But unlike empty theories here, Gillard exactly says what is going to be Anakin's problem:

His downfall is gonna be aggression

That is it. Nothing else. The exact scene is shown in the movie: Anakin is too aggressive, overcommits to an attack and then loses the battle. Prior to that, it is pretty much recognized that he was winning and would have certainly won. By being too aggressive, he lost the battle. Hence he exchanged, for sure, because he gets his "greater power" but at the cost of "getting into trouble" with his main "downfall being aggression" then. Other quotes back this by saying this exact thing. That Anakin's arrogance and aggression are his main downfall. "Not" any reduction in power whatsoever.

Nowhere is he making any comment on "Yeah bro Anakin is weak on Mustafar that is why he lost" at all.

It makes sense to me that Anakin is more powerful. The bulk of your argument is simply "Obi Wan cannot be that powerful" etc. Well, I am saying that Obi Wan can be that powerful. I find his battling of Maul and Savage a year before his prime to be nearly as great of a a feat as Anakin beating the Count.

Also, go through the blog:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/why-was-obi-wan-kenobi-able-to-contend-with-darth--1901550/?page=1

Go through it once

By ignoring that that's implying that Obi-Wan can consistently match the strongest version of Anakin's TK which is the main issue with Anakin being unhindered during that fight. If we ignore Anakin having previously better feats and say Kenobi legitimately matched his power in the film is silly. That's why I brought up all of Obi-Wan's previous TK feats not matching Anakin's. 

Lol I know how Force barriers work. I never say I didn't. That's why it's a big deal that it took Dooku more to parry a single strike from Anakin then it did to TK Kenobi by going through his Force wall. 

And if it's been forgotten both the ROTS film and senior novel have Dooku penetrating Obi-Wan's defenses directly which are higher in Legends canon than the junior novel. The junior novel also has Kenobi straight up stomping Grievous in a single move after he quad wields which is obviously different from the film.

In the film Dooku TK's Kenobi before they go up the stairs where Kenobi is clearly directly facing him. So this means he would've had to go through his TK barrier as he's clearly shown doing it directly. 

I'm not sure why you went into how Force walls work. That sounds like something a 14 year old who watches one video by Jensaarai1 would do.



  
Lol What? Even if Obi-Wan is getting tired at half the rate of Dooku it still implies that version of Anakin > Obi-Wan. 




Again, I never said he wasn't a 9 just a lesser nine which I'll get into later. 




How does that mean that each version of ROTS Anakin is the same nine? That is lunacy. Anakin at the end of the IH fight is clearly fighting way better than when he was holding back. The novel has Anakin holding back during the second phase of that fight already taxing Dooku to his limits whereas at the end when he starts using his furnace heart. 

That quote says nothing about a 9 always staying a 9.



How does that video prove your point? What Gillard says after going in line with the ROTS novel that was line edited by Lucas applies to Anakin during Knightfall because he was using his "furnace heart". 

Since I've finally found the quote from the novel it's here: 

"Yet it was as though when he had crushed the dragon under his boot, the dragon had sunk venomed fangs into his heel. Now its poison chilled him to the bone." 

He crushes the dragon under his boot before going to the temple then later on Mustafar is upset by it. This is shown in the movie where he's visibly crying after killing both Jedi and the CIS council. So Anakin clearly is emotionally unstable here more so than he was in the IH fight because his fury was focused where in the Mustafar fight he was clearly unfocused which is where Anakin being hindered by his rage comes from. 

Anakin on the IH clearly is more stable than his later version and focuses it better in the film than he does on Mustafar. 



Gillard saying Anakin has gone through the systems too quickly is likely referring to Anakin in general during ROTS because as Dooku it's not just during Knightfall when he starts using the dark side. Dooku makes note in the ROTS novel how even when Anakin was holding back he was already "half Sith". 


Anakin's downfall in the film was trying a stupid ass move sure, but that isn't saying that Kenobi would've lasted the same amount of time against IH Anakin on even ground. For Anakin's aggression se above. 



Lol What are you saying? So you're saying that Obi-Wan can consistently match the TK of peak Anakin? 



Again, this is going by TCW where that version of Maul got knocked down by a dog despite physically overpowering Savage earlier. That show is filled with plot induced stupidity and Shadow Conspiracy reinforces Maul and Savage being hindered by the hallway. Savages reach and longass saberstaff wasn't very practical in there and he kept getting in Maul's way. 

Obi-Wan had access to a spare lightsaber and was possibly amped by his aggression because of Adi's death as he was clearly focuse more than he was onboard the turtle tanker where Maul unbalanced him which realistically shouldn't have happened to Legends Obi-Wan.


That article doesn't state anything of note that you haven't and I'm from what I've seen there's not much explanation anywhere as to why Kenobi could consistently match peak Anakin's TK.

LOTL wrote:

Now this goes to people in general, not only you from now on. Note that I am not going to be referring to you in particular but some of the other arguments that people have thrown in favor of Anakin generally.

B/w, even Obi Wan notes that:

But that’s not really true, Obi-Wan thought as he ducked and wove and parried. Both he and Anakin felt the anguish of their need to kill the other. But Anakin had turned to the dark side, and despair and pain strengthened the dark side. It gave him an advantage Obi-Wan could not match. Unless he let go of his own despair and let the living Force move him — the Force that bound all living things together, even Obi-Wan and this new, deadly, evil Anakin.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith Young Novel

Obi Wan explicitly comments that Mustafar Anakin>IH Anakin.

But yeah, there is more:

The two struggled but Anakin had grown too strong. Obi Wan was forced to release Anakin's weapon.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith Movie Storybook

Obi Wan is referring to Anakin's actualized, manifested power here. What's more, Obi Wan has also observed Anakin in the IH battle:

The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground.

Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step. Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him. Dooku's breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength-not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing-And only then did Dooku understand that he'd been suckered.

Skywalker's Shien ready-stance had been a ruse, as had his Ataro gymnastics; the boy was a Djem So stylist, and as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen. His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head. Especially not while also defending against a second attacker.


Credit: Revenge of the Sith Main Novel

Obi Wan sees Anakin literally smashing away at the Count, he can see that Dooku cannot meet Anakin for strength to strength, he can see that Anakin's force reserves are too much for the Count in the battle.

Yet on Mustafar Obi Wan says that "Anakin is too strong" then. So, if he has seen Anakin's strength before, and yet concludes that Anakin is too strong in the battle, the only conclusion can be that Anakin is legit more powerful.

Seriously, that in addition to this comment where Obi Wan explicitly notes that Anakin has "been strengthened" that he "now has an advantage even Obi Wan cannot match" there:

But that’s not really true, Obi-Wan thought as he ducked and wove and parried. Both he and Anakin felt the anguish of their need to kill the other. But Anakin had turned to the dark side, and despair and pain strengthened the dark side. It gave him an advantage Obi-Wan could not match. Unless he let go of his own despair and let the living Force move him — the Force that bound all living things together, even Obi-Wan and this new, deadly, evil Anakin.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith Young Novel

Note the terms here that explicitly comment on Anakin's power level:

strengthened


advantage


What am I supposed to take away from this if I am a casual/normal fan? Am I supposed to concoct some theory that all of this means that Anakin is weaker than before or am I supposed to take the clear meaning from the text? Note that countless sources have called Anakin "On Mustafar" as being more powerful than ever before. Obi Wan hasn't seen Vader on Knightfall so I cannot say that this means that Vader is literally better than before, but yeah he is better than before when Obi Wan is present. Places like the IH.

Can you honestly tell me that the reader of this novel is supposed to conclude literally anything other than the fact that Mustafar Anakin is better than before? What will it take for people to accept it? Really? Why are so many excuses being made for Anakin here in this battle by people for a long time? I normally wouldn't mind but there is literally not one single shred of evidence at all that conclusively says that

"Yeah, Anakin on Mustafar is hindered. If his power level was 100 before, it is lesser than 100"

Nothing. Literally nothing.

Instead the excuses being made for it range from a misinterpretation of comments by Gillard that clearly refer to his arrogance and over aggression( something many other statements in the lore clearly comment on) to mean that he actually means that Anakin is hindered and his power is lower than before, to some other theory that he is simply meant to be so because Obi Wan is not that powerful?

Am I supposed to laugh? It was amusing for a few years but now it is irritating. What will it take?

1. An explicit confirmation that Anakin on Mustafar is more powerful?

No, Anakin is mentally a wreck on Mustafar, he is conflicted and hence after the dragon part, he is not what he once was

2. Fine, here, you have a quote that says Anakin after the dragon part is more powerful, along with his personal testimony

No, Anakin is conflicted by his thoughts for Padme and Obi Wan and even though he is more powerful he cannot actualize the actualized potential power that he has actualized but not actualized because it is not potentially accessible yet it is actualized hence the quotes are correct but my interpretation is also correct

3. Bro even if I was to tell you that you are correct, maybe it is possible that you are looking a bit too much into it? Anyway, here are quotes that also say that "destruction is Vader's only thought", that "his love for Padme and Obi Wan mutated into anger" on Mustafar right before the battle along with others that clearly mean that Vader was giving it his all, not holding back and was completely committed to attacking Obi Wan

No, Gillard says that Anakin is not mentally fit, and Obi Wan can never be that powerful

4. Fine, here is an explanation of what Gillard really meant, and one that is actually backed by multiple comments in the lore. Because you have asked that nicely, here is also an explanation for Obi Wan being able to battle him then

No, there is still no proof that his actualized power is greater than before

5. Fine, here, Obi Wan has given many statements that clearly, by his experience, he means that Vader is more powerful and better than before. This cannot be explained away because Obi Wan is experiencing it meaning that that is his actual power level

No

6. What do you want then? Which scrap of evidence do you need to be convinced that Vader on Mustafar is more powerful or equally powerful to any of his previous iterations in battle

The above conversation is pretty much how this whole bit has played out over time. Can the Anakin gang clearly state what evidence it requires so that I can finish this whole thing? Name it. I can pretty much certainly comment on it that in case the request is genuine that some evidence or other that supports my version of the events will be there. Because I firmly believe that that is the correct version of events in the lore.

Or you can answer the following:

What is Lucas's intention? He clearly says that the dark side is a pathway to more power, quickly. He clearly has Anakin making comments like "I am more powerful than the Chancellor" on Mustafar. He then has the most energetic and intense battle being shown on screen. Quick, fast and more powerful than anything we have seen from these two. Then I read the novel. Everything there clearly has Anakin being more powerful. The objective narration says it, he says it, Obi Wan says it, everything says it.

I concluded that: "Yeah, Anakin is arrogant, but he is clearly more powerful, I mean that cannot have been made more clear"

I hate employing arguments like the above but seeing as how people are so bent on intent, I might as well try even that. Even there, I cannot point out one single reason for Anakin to be noticeably hindered at all in the battle.

At least bring new interesting arguments into the mix. I really enjoyed the "Vader can't sense Obi Wan hence he is hindered". It was innovative and a pretty fresh take on the matter. It was a pleasure to reply to that, not only because of the argument itself, but also because interestingly it serves my point better, that Mustafar Vader really is more powerful than before

Well this posts mainly comes off as directed at me so I'll type my response. 


Well first of all that's the junior novelization. That quote is not explicitly stating Anakin's stronger on Mustafar. It's saying that the new version of Anakin is deadly and evil because he's now on the dark side. That's not saying he's stronger. 


The next quote is describing their physical brawl unless there's another quote stating it refers to power. 



Lol Well Obi-Wan better be aware of Anakin's power considering the amount of time they spent together. 


For the junior novel saying Anakin was amped during the Mustafar fight see my previous post. Also it's the junior novel. 

The film and the senior novel > the junior one. 



Lol What? The reader of that novel is supposed to be for little kids hence why it's called the junior novel and uses the terms monsters instead of aliens. I think you're the one looking a little too far into the kids version instead of the actual book that has the poison quote in the previous post. 

I'm not sure what that mean. Obi-Wan had to win that fight because of story reasons even though Anakin was established as the better fighter, including by Gillard who's put Anakin on Yoda and Sidious's level. In the ROTS novel and the original EU Anakin has the reputation as the "greater warrior" which fits with the film when Obi-Wan says Anakin had become a far greater Jedi than he ever could have before he leaves to go after Grievous.

Why would Nick Gillard have Anakin amped when he fights Kenobi if they have to have Kenobi win?





The next part of the post of you talking to yourself through an imaginary version of me is sorta confusing and is rather silly and for future reference it can come off as extremely rude. As I mentioned at the beginning it doesn't seem like it was general at all.





Lucas intention? 

Well he's stated that Anakin of ROTS was at least as strong as Sidious and the ROTS novel has the council decide that Anakin has a higher chance of defeating Sidious than Yoda and Mace while the latter two mentioned are in the room. Anakin saying he's more powerful than Sidious can refer both to his potential and the beginning of ROTS where Sidious says that Anakin is currently potentially more powerful than himself. 

Well going by the film and Lucas's intention Dooku TK's Kenobi directly but later they have Kenobi's TK match Anakin's. 


This last paragraph seems rather dismissive and condescending as if you're objectively right which hasn't been proven. 

I can do this endlessly if needed.

People need to remember that while Mustafar Anakin is only physically a 9, he isn't mentally a 9, so while he is most likely better than IH Anakin, he lacks the mental discipline that Yoda and Sidious have, who are conventional 9s. Anakin is an unconventional 9.

TheNuisanceBird wrote:

LOTL wrote:

Now this goes to people in general, not only you from now on. Note that I am not going to be referring to you in particular but some of the other arguments that people have thrown in favor of Anakin generally.

B/w, even Obi Wan notes that:

But that’s not really true, Obi-Wan thought as he ducked and wove and parried. Both he and Anakin felt the anguish of their need to kill the other. But Anakin had turned to the dark side, and despair and pain strengthened the dark side. It gave him an advantage Obi-Wan could not match. Unless he let go of his own despair and let the living Force move him — the Force that bound all living things together, even Obi-Wan and this new, deadly, evil Anakin.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith Young Novel

Obi Wan explicitly comments that Mustafar Anakin>IH Anakin.

But yeah, there is more:

The two struggled but Anakin had grown too strong. Obi Wan was forced to release Anakin's weapon.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith Movie Storybook

Obi Wan is referring to Anakin's actualized, manifested power here. What's more, Obi Wan has also observed Anakin in the IH battle:

The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground.

Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step. Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him. Dooku's breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength-not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing-And only then did Dooku understand that he'd been suckered.

Skywalker's Shien ready-stance had been a ruse, as had his Ataro gymnastics; the boy was a Djem So stylist, and as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen. His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head. Especially not while also defending against a second attacker.


Credit: Revenge of the Sith Main Novel

Obi Wan sees Anakin literally smashing away at the Count, he can see that Dooku cannot meet Anakin for strength to strength, he can see that Anakin's force reserves are too much for the Count in the battle.

Yet on Mustafar Obi Wan says that "Anakin is too strong" then. So, if he has seen Anakin's strength before, and yet concludes that Anakin is too strong in the battle, the only conclusion can be that Anakin is legit more powerful.

Seriously, that in addition to this comment where Obi Wan explicitly notes that Anakin has "been strengthened" that he "now has an advantage even Obi Wan cannot match" there:

But that’s not really true, Obi-Wan thought as he ducked and wove and parried. Both he and Anakin felt the anguish of their need to kill the other. But Anakin had turned to the dark side, and despair and pain strengthened the dark side. It gave him an advantage Obi-Wan could not match. Unless he let go of his own despair and let the living Force move him — the Force that bound all living things together, even Obi-Wan and this new, deadly, evil Anakin.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith Young Novel

Note the terms here that explicitly comment on Anakin's power level:

strengthened


advantage


What am I supposed to take away from this if I am a casual/normal fan? Am I supposed to concoct some theory that all of this means that Anakin is weaker than before or am I supposed to take the clear meaning from the text? Note that countless sources have called Anakin "On Mustafar" as being more powerful than ever before. Obi Wan hasn't seen Vader on Knightfall so I cannot say that this means that Vader is literally better than before, but yeah he is better than before when Obi Wan is present. Places like the IH.

Can you honestly tell me that the reader of this novel is supposed to conclude literally anything other than the fact that Mustafar Anakin is better than before? What will it take for people to accept it? Really? Why are so many excuses being made for Anakin here in this battle by people for a long time? I normally wouldn't mind but there is literally not one single shred of evidence at all that conclusively says that

"Yeah, Anakin on Mustafar is hindered. If his power level was 100 before, it is lesser than 100"

Nothing. Literally nothing.

Instead the excuses being made for it range from a misinterpretation of comments by Gillard that clearly refer to his arrogance and over aggression( something many other statements in the lore clearly comment on) to mean that he actually means that Anakin is hindered and his power is lower than before, to some other theory that he is simply meant to be so because Obi Wan is not that powerful?

Am I supposed to laugh? It was amusing for a few years but now it is irritating. What will it take?

1. An explicit confirmation that Anakin on Mustafar is more powerful?

No, Anakin is mentally a wreck on Mustafar, he is conflicted and hence after the dragon part, he is not what he once was

2. Fine, here, you have a quote that says Anakin after the dragon part is more powerful, along with his personal testimony

No, Anakin is conflicted by his thoughts for Padme and Obi Wan and even though he is more powerful he cannot actualize the actualized potential power that he has actualized but not actualized because it is not potentially accessible yet it is actualized hence the quotes are correct but my interpretation is also correct

3. Bro even if I was to tell you that you are correct, maybe it is possible that you are looking a bit too much into it? Anyway, here are quotes that also say that "destruction is Vader's only thought", that "his love for Padme and Obi Wan mutated into anger" on Mustafar right before the battle along with others that clearly mean that Vader was giving it his all, not holding back and was completely committed to attacking Obi Wan

No, Gillard says that Anakin is not mentally fit, and Obi Wan can never be that powerful

4. Fine, here is an explanation of what Gillard really meant, and one that is actually backed by multiple comments in the lore. Because you have asked that nicely, here is also an explanation for Obi Wan being able to battle him then

No, there is still no proof that his actualized power is greater than before

5. Fine, here, Obi Wan has given many statements that clearly, by his experience, he means that Vader is more powerful and better than before. This cannot be explained away because Obi Wan is experiencing it meaning that that is his actual power level

No

6. What do you want then? Which scrap of evidence do you need to be convinced that Vader on Mustafar is more powerful or equally powerful to any of his previous iterations in battle

The above conversation is pretty much how this whole bit has played out over time. Can the Anakin gang clearly state what evidence it requires so that I can finish this whole thing? Name it. I can pretty much certainly comment on it that in case the request is genuine that some evidence or other that supports my version of the events will be there. Because I firmly believe that that is the correct version of events in the lore.

Or you can answer the following:

What is Lucas's intention? He clearly says that the dark side is a pathway to more power, quickly. He clearly has Anakin making comments like "I am more powerful than the Chancellor" on Mustafar. He then has the most energetic and intense battle being shown on screen. Quick, fast and more powerful than anything we have seen from these two. Then I read the novel. Everything there clearly has Anakin being more powerful. The objective narration says it, he says it, Obi Wan says it, everything says it.

I concluded that: "Yeah, Anakin is arrogant, but he is clearly more powerful, I mean that cannot have been made more clear"

I hate employing arguments like the above but seeing as how people are so bent on intent, I might as well try even that. Even there, I cannot point out one single reason for Anakin to be noticeably hindered at all in the battle.

At least bring new interesting arguments into the mix. I really enjoyed the "Vader can't sense Obi Wan hence he is hindered". It was innovative and a pretty fresh take on the matter. It was a pleasure to reply to that, not only because of the argument itself, but also because interestingly it serves my point better, that Mustafar Vader really is more powerful than before

Well this posts mainly comes off as directed at me so I'll type my response. 


Well first of all that's the junior novelization. That quote is not explicitly stating Anakin's stronger on Mustafar. It's saying that the new version of Anakin is deadly and evil because he's now on the dark side. That's not saying he's stronger. 


The next quote is describing their physical brawl unless there's another quote stating it refers to power. 



Lol Well Obi-Wan better be aware of Anakin's power considering the amount of time they spent together. 


For the junior novel saying Anakin was amped during the Mustafar fight see my previous post. Also it's the junior novel. 

The film and the senior novel > the junior one. 



Lol What? The reader of that novel is supposed to be for little kids hence why it's called the junior novel and uses the terms monsters instead of aliens. I think you're the one looking a little too far into the kids version instead of the actual book that has the poison quote in the previous post. 

I'm not sure what that mean. Obi-Wan had to win that fight because of story reasons even though Anakin was established as the better fighter, including by Gillard who's put Anakin on Yoda and Sidious's level. In the ROTS novel and the original EU Anakin has the reputation as the "greater warrior" which fits with the film when Obi-Wan says Anakin had become a far greater Jedi than he ever could have before he leaves to go after Grievous.

Why would Nick Gillard have Anakin amped when he fights Kenobi if they have to have Kenobi win?





The next part of the post of you talking to yourself through an imaginary version of me is sorta confusing and is rather silly and for future reference it can come off as extremely rude. As I mentioned at the beginning it doesn't seem like it was general at all.





Lucas intention? 

Well he's stated that Anakin of ROTS was at least as strong as Sidious and the ROTS novel has the council decide that Anakin has a higher chance of defeating Sidious than Yoda and Mace while the latter two mentioned are in the room. Anakin saying he's more powerful than Sidious can refer both to his potential and the beginning of ROTS where Sidious says that Anakin is currently potentially more powerful than himself. 

Well going by the film and Lucas's intention Dooku TK's Kenobi directly but later they have Kenobi's TK match Anakin's. 


This last paragraph seems rather dismissive and condescending as if you're objectively right which hasn't been proven. 

I can do this endlessly if needed.

It is not directed at you. It is directed at the general arguments I have come across for Anakin over the years

I can do it endlessly too. In fact I plan to. I'll get to your argument soon but this is bigger than you and I plan to continue on till this notion of Anakin being noticeably hindered is effectively not a thing

TheNuisanceBird wrote:

LOTL wrote:

TheNuisanceBird wrote:

LOTL wrote:

TheNuisanceBird wrote:

LOTL wrote:

TheNuisanceBird wrote:

LOTL wrote:This notion of Anakin being "hugely" hindered is one notion that I am itching to get rid of. Anyone care to present the best argument in favor of it so that I can begin?

Well for starters the ROTS novel states how Anakin hadn't eat or slept for several days and before Padme landed it was described how he felt weakened in the Force with the dragon symbolism. 

If we go by Legends Anakin's feats leading up to ROTS and during the Invisible Hand fight all point to him being able to overpower Kenobi under normal circumstances. Anakin being hindered explains why Kenobi was able to match his Force push in the film even though every one of Anakin's best TK feats > Kenobi's. 

Even in the novel Anakin TK's Kenobi into walls at least twice and the mechanical manipulation of Anakin's arm wouldn't have happened to Invisible Hand Anakin. 

At the very least I feel comfortable saying that baseline ROTS Anakin > ROTS Kenobi on neutral ground.

The not eating and not sleeping applies to KFV too. Or office Anakin, or the Anakin that comes to Mustafar and quotes have all those versions of Anakin as more powerful than ever before. Not to mention, not sleeping for days basically does almost nothing to even trainee Bane so I doubt it would do anything to infinitely superior people like Anakin

Lastly, Obi Wan too has not slept for a long time( probably since his battle with Grevious) and certainly there is no indication that he ate anything since we pretty much have his timeline accounted for. At the very least, even he has not received much rest or nourishment at all. Lone Wolf notes that he is suffering from tiring for the past few days and that takes place a day after the movie, so it encompasses the Grevious timeline, meaning he has not gotten any replenishment since then. So, yeah, this excuse is pretty thin

It is also stated in countless quotes that he is growing more powerful, is already more powerful, and becomes more powerful later on, or at the timeline so I also find the "dragon" part of it pretty thin too. Not to mention, absolutely nowhere is it stated, implied or even reasonably hinted at that the "dragon" part on Mustafar weakens or hinders him and we have multiple quotes that put him as more powerful than before, or growing more powerful etc. after that part in the novel. Theories that quite frankly are a bit reaching are not as important as the intent of the statements that portray Anakin's level pretty clearly

Please elaborate. Other than the Theta storm feat( which I chalk to Anakin accessing his latent potential) and the handling of Dooku, Anakin has little more in terms of battle accomplishments that is more impressive. I'll also mention that he has been both force one-shotted and physically beaten by Obi Wan before, though both have circumstances in play, it is still pretty impressive for Obi Wan. Also, in terms of strict battle feats I find the feat of handling Maul and Savage a year before his prime to be almost as impressive as Anakin beating Dooku

Yeah, that has nothing to do with overpowering Obi Wan's force barrier but catching him off guard. Obi Wan defends his force pushes later on with not much trouble at all.

Yeah, I cannot agree but then that is not relevant to Anakin being hindered here which is the point

The ROTS still has a part where Anakin experiences dizziness because of his lack of sleep/food.

Anakin not sleeping or eating in those cases doesn't matter as much because prior to Knightfall it's stated that him opening his furnace heart is basically himself giving himself permission to use his full power so when he went to the temple these factors likely didn't apply. Obi-Wan likely was eating and sleeping in the days Anakin wasn't when they were on Coruscant and the time frame between him getting shot down by Cody and confronting Anakin on Mustafar at most is probably a day. That's not as bad as several and even then he was picked up by Bail and Yoda so there's a possibility he at least eat there. 

The quotes I remember refer to him during Knightfall and in the film when Sidious says his powers are growing stronger are before Mustafar where going by George Lucas's line editing of the novel and Nick Gillard's commentary they had to nerf Anakin. Hayden Christensen said behind that scenes that there had to be this exchange of power so Anakin wouldn't look better than Obi-Wan even though he was supposed to. In the ROTS novel it's said how Anakin feels poisoned by the Force after killing Jedi and the CIS council. This would explain why his physical augmentation from the IH is absent in the Mustafar fight considering that while Anakin does push Kenobi back there's literally a moment where Obi-Wan manages to overpower him when they grab each others arms.  

What do you mean Anakin doesn't have TK feats that put him above Kenobi? Anakin's been able to tear apart a giant spider droid, ragdoll Ventress once he got serious, shatter a 30 x 90 meter dome with a Force scream, and in the ROTS graphic novel Force push Dooku. The time Anakin got sent flying when he was about to attack Ventress doesn't count as that wasn't a direct attack to his Force wall and it was when he was going through the air. If you're referring to their fight in TCW that's a heavily nerfed version of Anakin that got blitzed by a SPED monkey. 

Obi-Wan deflects several of his blasts but during Anakin's Force waves he is sent back at least twice. In a straight up Force battle Anakin should win against Kenobi. 

If we're going to say that Anakin's stronger on Mustafar we first have to establish that Kenobi was basically an equal to a version of Anakin better than the one that two-shotted Cin Drallig and severely outclassed Dooku. I don't see that being realistic.

I get the impression that you have gone through ShootingNova's blog on the matter and are almost quoting it here. While it was a great blog for its time, it is mostly outdated pretty heavily for the current era

1. The Lone Wolf refers to the "past few days" so yeah, it is several.

Besides these are very, very minute factors because as mentioned, even trainee Bane can go without sleep( or food?) for that many number of days and function well.

2. No, those quote are not only just before the battle, they are during the battle, after the dragon bit, etc. Absolutely nowhere does Gillard say they have to nerf Anakin, on the contrary, he explicitly says this

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/why-was-obi-wan-kenobi-able-to-contend-with-darth--1901550/?page=1

Go to his comment:

https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/5d8ovp/nic_gillard_just_revealed_that_there_are_9_forms/?st=ivljdm4d&sh=aec87fa6

He explicitly says that Vader is still a 9, it is still something that you have to deal with. Meaning, even in spite of Anakin's mental hindrance( which is what he is calling as bad for him because he hasn't gone to level 9 the right way) he is "still a level 9" in a way that "still has to be dealt with"

Azronger's arguments contain most of the other quotes on the matter

Nowhere in the ROTS novel is it written that Anakin feels poisoned after killing the Jedi whatsoever. Please cite the instance. The only thing in the novel tht is conclusive on the matter is that Anakin muses that can feel his power growing "after" the scene you mention with the "dragon" here

Please quote what Hayden said. Exactly. I would also remind you that a novel is more authoritative than an actor's commentary

2. Obi Wan is able to effortlessly lift and cloak 40m ships, can push multiple trees that are 40-50m in length, effortlessly beat Ventress in TCW( Folini confirms that she was no threat to him whatsoever), can visibly resist Ventress's force attacks better than Anakin( Anakin gets sent flying whereas Obi Wan is pushed only a short way) in the same story, and can force push both Maul and Savage at the same time. Note that Savage has force choked both Dooku and Ventress before

3. Please go through all the blogs

4. Why? You have not given any explanation for it being the case

I'm mainly going by the ROTS novel and what's been said about Anakin around that time. 

So sure it's several days but I still don't see how the lack of sleep or food is a minor factor where the book has Anakin getting dizzy. 

I've read those blogs and seen the saberproject interview. He lists Anakin as a 9 there as well as the ROTS behind the scenes. I'm not saying Anakin during Mustafar isn't a 9, due to Kenobi constantly having to get away from him he clearly is. My point is that going by the ROTS novel which was line edited by Lucas Anakin is clearly functioning better on the IH than he is on Mustafar. 

It is written in there. I unfortunately don't have my copy with me but it's described how Anakin feels like the dragon stuck it's fangs into his heel. If I hadn't left the book at my apartment before the virus I'd give the quote. Even considering Anakin feeling his power growing that makes absolutely no sense if Kenobi was able to indirectly get past his Force wall and match him in the TK stand off. The only explanation for Obi-Wan being able to do that is Anakin's Force abilities not being used at their normal capacity. 

Hayden says it here at 2:47

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmJ9PCmBl_4


All of those things are things ROTS Anakin could do. If it's unclear I'm going by Legends as I've previously mentioned TCW isn't the best source to try and scale stuff. Anakin gets blitzed by a SPED monkey in one fight and for some reason can't use the Force to pull back his underwater mask to himself. 

I'm saying that we first have to be convinced that Obi-Wan can consistently equal the supposed strongest version of Anakin in the Force which he does in the film. The ROTS novel makes note on how Dooku had to spend more of his Force reserves parrying and blocking each strike from Anakin than it did to toss Kenobi across the room. 

It makes absolutely no sense to say that Anakin was unhindered during his Force contention with Kenobi, much less that he was stronger at that point. 

Mustafar Anakin AT THE LEAST was hindered in the Force.

Bro, sorry, most of this is ranting about how Obi Wan "cannot" match Vader because he is not supposed to because of some past feats etc.

I'll talk about the Dooku fight because it is there that Obi Wan is taking a lot of heat.

First of all, Dooku did "not" overpower Obi Wan's force barrier while throwing him, he merely caught him off guard:

When the super droids got in the way, they cut them down. At last they reached the first set of stairs to the balcony. As the Count started up, Obi-Wan disengaged and ran to the second set of stairs to attack him from behind. Climbing the stairs, it cut down two of the super battle droids.

He can’t fight in two directions at once, Obi-Wan thought as he came up behind the Count. If we can —

Count Dooku half-turned and raised a hand. A rush of dark power lifted Obi-Wan off his feet and choked the air from his lungs. He reached for the Force to counter Dooku, but the attack had been too sudden. He saw Dooku twist, kicking out at Anakin with all his weight behind it. Anakin fell backward, and Dooku hurled Obi-Wan over the edge of the balcony.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith Young Novel

Now, I have seen the argument that the Count managed to "catch him off guard" because of his speed and superior precognition. Not the case. He was familiar with Obi Wan's form then:

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t3075-obi-wan-vs-count-dooku-obi-wan-lost-because-dooku-was-familiar-with-his-form

So the "power" that Dooku exerts is simply that of throwing a weight of 80 kg across the room. In no way is he "overpowering Obi Wan" or anything, and his familiarity with Obi Wan's form is what allows him the ability to catch him off guard. Obviously he is going to employ more energy in countering Anakin's force augmented lightsaber clashes than simply throwing 80 kg across the room.

You may not have heard of this but I'll elaborate: In the PT era there is almost no material that has force users "overpowering" each other's force barriers and there is literally no material wherein a force defense can be generated by willing it to without gesturing. There is no invisible cocoon that protects force users all the time, force users have to erect an active defense by gesturing. Literally every example in the PT era supports the point. Also if you look at the blog, you'll notice that even Palpatine cannot "overpower" Maul's force barrier, he has to exploit a flaw and catch him off guard to force push him. So, evidently, if even Palpatine cannot do that to Maul then Dooku doing that to Obi Wan is clearly nonsensical.

Ziggy posted a quote that says that Obi Wan and Dooku were getting tired while Anakin was growing stronger. While that may be true, we have no indication to what extent Obi Wan was getting tired in comparison to the Count. Obi Wan might have been tiring at a rate that is half that of the Count's tiring rate and the quote still is correct.

Now that you have conceded that Anakin on Mustafar is a 9, have a look at that too:

His style has changed a bit since Episode II, when he was only a level seven. On this he's a level nine.' For the curious, Gillard does not reveal any Jedi who has achieved level ten. The highest is nine, occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference."

All level 9 combatants are virtually equal to each other meaning that only factors that would normally be minutiae are relevant. Meaning Mustafar Anakin, even if he is hindered, he is still virtually equal to almost any other Anakin, meaning if MFV were to combat KFV, it would be factors like the environment etc. that would determine the winner, not the power level.

Meaning, even if MFV is hindered, he is probably hindered by such a small amount that it is not even worth mentioning.

Bro the video has almost established my point. The "exchange of power" that Hayden talks about that "Nick' made? Nick in the very next shot tells us what that "exchange of power" is then:

Hayden in this film has moved up to a level 9. He has gone past Obi. The difference between a level 8 and level 9 really is the dark side. You have to go through each level in order to attain the next level. If you do it too quick, you are gonna get in trouble. So that is how I work on that. You know, his downfall is gonna be aggression.

Let me also put this quote in:

He took Force LSD. That's what made him a 9. That's dangerous because he hasn't done it the right way. But it's still a nine. It's still something you have to deal with.

Yeah, so Anakin has "cheated" and gone to the dark side. He has access to all the power that the dark side gives hence Gillard making the comment that "It is still a 9. It is still something you have to deal with". He has the ability of a level 9 combatant. However Gillard then making the comment "You have to go through each level in order to attain the next level. If you do it too quick, you are gonna get in trouble" clearly specifies exactly "what" has been "exchanged" here

He has cheated. Hence by cheating, he has exchanged his mental stability for power. Because he has gone through it too quick, he gets power for sure, but he is also going to get into trouble. That it is also "dangerous to him because he hasn't done it the right way". But unlike empty theories here, Gillard exactly says what is going to be Anakin's problem:

His downfall is gonna be aggression

That is it. Nothing else. The exact scene is shown in the movie: Anakin is too aggressive, overcommits to an attack and then loses the battle. Prior to that, it is pretty much recognized that he was winning and would have certainly won. By being too aggressive, he lost the battle. Hence he exchanged, for sure, because he gets his "greater power" but at the cost of "getting into trouble" with his main "downfall being aggression" then. Other quotes back this by saying this exact thing. That Anakin's arrogance and aggression are his main downfall. "Not" any reduction in power whatsoever.

Nowhere is he making any comment on "Yeah bro Anakin is weak on Mustafar that is why he lost" at all.

It makes sense to me that Anakin is more powerful. The bulk of your argument is simply "Obi Wan cannot be that powerful" etc. Well, I am saying that Obi Wan can be that powerful. I find his battling of Maul and Savage a year before his prime to be nearly as great of a a feat as Anakin beating the Count.

Also, go through the blog:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/why-was-obi-wan-kenobi-able-to-contend-with-darth--1901550/?page=1

Go through it once

By ignoring that that's implying that Obi-Wan can consistently match the strongest version of Anakin's TK which is the main issue with Anakin being unhindered during that fight. If we ignore Anakin having previously better feats and say Kenobi legitimately matched his power in the film is silly. That's why I brought up all of Obi-Wan's previous TK feats not matching Anakin's. 

Lol I know how Force barriers work. I never say I didn't. That's why it's a big deal that it took Dooku more to parry a single strike from Anakin then it did to TK Kenobi by going through his Force wall. 

And if it's been forgotten both the ROTS film and senior novel have Dooku penetrating Obi-Wan's defenses directly which are higher in Legends canon than the junior novel. The junior novel also has Kenobi straight up stomping Grievous in a single move after he quad wields which is obviously different from the film.

In the film Dooku TK's Kenobi before they go up the stairs where Kenobi is clearly directly facing him. So this means he would've had to go through his TK barrier as he's clearly shown doing it directly. 

I'm not sure why you went into how Force walls work. That sounds like something a 14 year old who watches one video by Jensaarai1 would do.



  
Lol What? Even if Obi-Wan is getting tired at half the rate of Dooku it still implies that version of Anakin > Obi-Wan. 




Again, I never said he wasn't a 9 just a lesser nine which I'll get into later. 




How does that mean that each version of ROTS Anakin is the same nine? That is lunacy. Anakin at the end of the IH fight is clearly fighting way better than when he was holding back. The novel has Anakin holding back during the second phase of that fight already taxing Dooku to his limits whereas at the end when he starts using his furnace heart. 

That quote says nothing about a 9 always staying a 9.



How does that video prove your point? What Gillard says after going in line with the ROTS novel that was line edited by Lucas applies to Anakin during Knightfall because he was using his "furnace heart". 

Since I've finally found the quote from the novel it's here: 

"Yet it was as though when he had crushed the dragon under his boot, the dragon had sunk venomed fangs into his heel. Now its poison chilled him to the bone." 

He crushes the dragon under his boot before going to the temple then later on Mustafar is upset by it. This is shown in the movie where he's visibly crying after killing both Jedi and the CIS council. So Anakin clearly is emotionally unstable here more so than he was in the IH fight because his fury was focused where in the Mustafar fight he was clearly unfocused which is where Anakin being hindered by his rage comes from. 

Anakin on the IH clearly is more stable than his later version and focuses it better in the film than he does on Mustafar. 



Gillard saying Anakin has gone through the systems too quickly is likely referring to Anakin in general during ROTS because as Dooku it's not just during Knightfall when he starts using the dark side. Dooku makes note in the ROTS novel how even when Anakin was holding back he was already "half Sith". 


Anakin's downfall in the film was trying a stupid ass move sure, but that isn't saying that Kenobi would've lasted the same amount of time against IH Anakin on even ground. For Anakin's aggression se above. 



Lol What are you saying? So you're saying that Obi-Wan can consistently match the TK of peak Anakin? 



Again, this is going by TCW where that version of Maul got knocked down by a dog despite physically overpowering Savage earlier. That show is filled with plot induced stupidity and Shadow Conspiracy reinforces Maul and Savage being hindered by the hallway. Savages reach and longass saberstaff wasn't very practical in there and he kept getting in Maul's way. 

Obi-Wan had access to a spare lightsaber and was possibly amped by his aggression because of Adi's death as he was clearly focuse more than he was onboard the turtle tanker where Maul unbalanced him which realistically shouldn't have happened to Legends Obi-Wan.


That article doesn't state anything of note that you haven't and I'm from what I've seen there's not much explanation anywhere as to why Kenobi could consistently match peak Anakin's TK.

 
Wtf bro? I'll get to it soon but really? Are you still in 2014 or what?

LOTL wrote:It is not directed at you. It is directed at the general arguments I have come across for Anakin over the years

I can do it endlessly too. In fact I plan to. I'll get to your argument soon but this is bigger than you and I plan to continue on till this notion of Anakin being noticeably hindered is effectively not a thing

power.

Oi stop quoting each other's entire posts it makes the thread a complete pain in the ass to read through.

@LOTL By that I meant I'd get to it later in the post which I did.

Latham2000 wrote:

LOTL wrote:It is not directed at you. It is directed at the general arguments I have come across for Anakin over the years

I can do it endlessly too. In fact I plan to. I'll get to your argument soon but this is bigger than you and I plan to continue on till this notion of Anakin being noticeably hindered is effectively not a thing

power.

Lol What?

LOTL has endless stamina is what he means. Don't @ me or him.

Latham2000 wrote:LOTL has endless stamina is what he means. Don't @ me or him.

Well lucky for both of you so do I. Especially over Anakin.

Chadpilled.

NotAA3 wrote:Chadpilled.

Initiating maximum thrustage.

"Skywalker was all over him. The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike." 




"It was a place, he decided, they should reach together. Anakin forced him back and back, slamming his blade down with strength that seemed to flow from the volcano overhead."

No difference in strength. 

As for Anakin using his furnace heart:

"deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth."

Azronger already exposed the similarities in Anakin's battle mindset in both fights: him using fear as a weapon and turning it into hate and fury just as he was doing on Mustafar.

There's literally no difference, except Anakin's grown more powerful and ferocious. As Gillard says he no longer cares he thinks he's invincible. 

There's no such thing as Force walls in Lucas's vision Star Wars. You either see attack coming and brace yourself for impact or you don't see it in time and you get nailed, just like taking a punch or kick. Just watch Anakin vs Ventress on Kamino: Ventress nails him with a Force push earily in the battle then in the same battle Anakin blunts the attack no problem. Dooku pushed and gripped Kenobi because he timed Kenobi and didn't see them coming unlike on Obi-Diah where he blunted Dooku's push no problem. Neighter Anakin or Kenobi could TK the other when they weren't expecting it cause the know each tother too well. TPM Maul needed to catch TPM Kenobi off guard to push him as per the script and the creators of TCW thought it was possible for Maul to grip Sidious and I doubt even then they were thinking Maul was outright more powerful, just good enough to catch him with his guard down.

TheNuisanceBird wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:LOTL has endless stamina is what he means. Don't @ me or him.

Well lucky for both of you so do I. Especially over Anakin.

Anakin's era is over. Accept his inferiority

Kenobi makes him shit himself with the Force and then decides to kick the shit back up his ass for shits and giggles

O-Siri wrote:"Skywalker was all over him. The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike." 




"It was a place, he decided, they should reach together. Anakin forced him back and back, slamming his blade down with strength that seemed to flow from the volcano overhead."

No difference in strength. 

As for Anakin using his furnace heart:

"deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth."

Azronger already exposed the similarities in Anakin's battle mindset in both fights: him using fear as a weapon and turning it into hate and fury just as he was doing on Mustafar.

There's literally no difference, except Anakin's grown more powerful and ferocious. As Gillard says he no longer cares he thinks he's invincible. 

There's no such thing as Force walls in Lucas's vision Star Wars. You either see attack coming and brace yourself for impact or you don't see it in time and you get nailed, just like taking a punch or kick. Just watch Anakin vs Ventress on Kamino: Ventress nails him with a Force push earily in the battle then in the same battle Anakin blunts the attack no problem. Dooku pushed and gripped Kenobi because he timed Kenobi and didn't see them coming unlike on Obi-Diah where he blunted Dooku's push no problem. Neighter Anakin or Kenobi could TK the other when they weren't expecting it cause the know each tother too well. TPM Maul needed to catch TPM Kenobi off guard to push him as per the script and the creators of TCW thought it was possible for Maul to grip Sidious and I doubt even then they were thinking Maul was outright more powerful, just good enough to catch him with his guard down.

Finally something good. See we're finally getting somewhere with this. 





I don't think that we can say their strength is similar when one version taxed Dooku the way he did whereas the other couldn't directly overpower Kenobi physically, which going by the Dooku's augmentation, he should've. 

Again, that doesn't mean it was focused fury the way it was on the IH. Anakin during Mustafar was obviously drawing on his rage considering he was extremely unstable as he had just choked his pregnant wife out and was convinced Obi-Wan was having an affair with her. Saying Anakin on Mustafar was using his rage by itself doesn't mean it made him better. 

If you're referring to the quote from the ROTS game guide of Anakin thinking he's unstoppable, sure it can apply to Mustafar Anakin and it does. He also says in the BTS how they tried to make Anakin appear physically arrogant in the way he fights which is visible in the film. However, the ROTS script describes Anakin and Obi-Wan "trying every Jedi trick in the book" and Obi-Wan in that fight does line up legitimate killshots at Anakin so the way the fight in the film was presented it didn't seem like they were trying to portray Anakin as invincible. 



I agree that in the films there's unfortunately not enough explanation ion defensive Force powers, and given the sequels, just scenes that explain how the Force works in general. This is true in canon for obvious reasons such as Vader getting TK'd by Ezra and Kanan and Ahsoka TKing Vader. 


While I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying that implies that during their Force contention that Anakin being more powerful wouldn't be a factor because someone less powerful is also actively using the Force. While it's shown that you don't have to be as powerful as the other person to defend against their TK it still doesn't really answer the question of why Kenobi can match peak Anakin's Force push. Unless we're now going to argue that Obi-Wan could match Yoda or Sidious's Force push.

LOTL wrote:

TheNuisanceBird wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:LOTL has endless stamina is what he means. Don't @ me or him.

Well lucky for both of you so do I. Especially over Anakin.

Anakin's era is over. Accept his inferiority

Lol What era? He's actually fairly underrated on YouTube. 

If the supposed era does end you're certainly not the one ending it considering O-Siri within less then 10% of your previous posts came up with a much better argument.

anakin s era is still going strong lol at over

Per G-Canon, Mustafar Obi-Wan is "enormously" below MFV in saber combat, and he cannot even "compete" with Force users "as powerful as" MFV. This notion that Obi-Wan and Anakin are "on paper" equals needs to die and is explicitly rejected by Lucas, Chee, Gillard, Palpatine, Yoda, and Kenobi himself. They're not even remotely close. DK sourcebooks and trading cards cannot change that. Mustafar Obi-Wan has nothing to suggest he can defeat BoROTS Anakin. He loses and badly.

I wish I could participate more in the discussion, but I have finals until the 7th.

Jaggarath wrote:Per G-Canon, Mustafar Obi-Wan is "enormously" below MFV in saber combat

I get that you are busy but this is a point I cannot ignore. Gillard has never actually mentioned Obi Wan being "enormously" inferior to Anakin, he has said that there is an enormous difference between 8 and 9. You are till now arguing from the point of view that Gillard is talking about the tiers themselves "while" casting Obi Wan and Anakin as examples to better prove his point about the "tier" levels but that is wrong. He is talking about Obi Wan and Anakin while "shoehorning" the tiers as an explanation for Anakin jumping from level 8 to 9 and the fact that the typical 9 is far better than the typical 8 to prove his point about "Anakin's growth" there. The focal point of the conversation is not the tiers themselves for him. The central point is the characters here, with the tiers being used as adjectives for them. Not the other way, which means that Obi Wan is "not" the quintessential 8 you have claimed him to be in the past. He is brought into the picture whenever tier 8 is being elaborated because he is the "only" tier 8 character of note in the movie. Who is still relevant by the time we get into the battle.

This is like saying "Anakin is a blue belt but he was a green belt, he has moved higher in the movie because he began taking extra pills to improve. That really is why he goes from green belt to blue belt, and the gap between those two belts is massive. Obi Wan is a green belt". Or "Anakin is now a chess GM, he was an IM now he is a GM because he began taking extra pills to improve his performance and the gap between GM and IM is high. Obi Wan is an IM". Tell me, how or in what way have those quotes constrained Obi Wan in "particular" to be a "normal" green belt or a "normal" IM? Again, Obi Wan is an IM and Anakin is a GM, Obi Wan is a green belt and Anakin is a blue belt. Nothing can change that because that is the categorization. But nothing constrains Obi Wan to not be a top level green belt or a top level IM. The argument that I have seen in the past against it is that "Obi Wan is mentioned whenever level 8 is brought into the picture". The counter argument is that "Level 8 is then mentioned whenever Obi Wan is brought into the picture" and the fact that Obi Wan is literally the only level 8 character for most of the movie so of course he is going to be the first name brought into the picture even ignoring that.

That and both Yoda and Obi Wan have clearly stated that Obi Wan is not going to lose to Vader "easily" even on paper. I don't expect any response from you soon so take your time if you want.

"Anakin becomes a level 9. George knows the levels, myself and George talked about levels and how it was. But it's more, it's not like a black belt, it's more like a Richter scale. So the difference between eight, Obi's an eight, so the difference between an eight and a nine is enormous." (Nick Gillard, ROTS DVD commentary)

This is directly in reference to Anakin and Obi-Wan, lol. To say, "So the difference between eight, Obi's an eight, so the difference between an eight and a nine is enormous," is not referring to Obi would mean the statement is staggeringly misleading or deceptive. He specifically goes out of his way to clarify "Obi is an eight" within the context of then saying "the difference between an eight and nine is enormous." It's not a distinct thing. And why would it ever be a distinct thing? Obi is the only level 8 ever mentioned anywhere by Gillard. We only learned Dooku and Maul are 8s from my private emails with him fifteen years later. There would be no purpose repeatedly stating "the difference between an 8 and 9 is enormous" if that's not at all applicable to the story, characters, or context he is framing it in.

Yoda states Obi-Wan has no shot at ever beating Palpatine, and that he would lose painfully. Same Palpatine who is on par with Anakin per Lucas.

Obi-Wan says he has no shot at beating Anakin, despite all his advantages, and the best bet he has is just to make him work for it.