Obi Wan vs Count Dooku-Obi Wan lost because Dooku was familiar with his form

Obi Wan lost on the IH because his opponent was simply familiar with his form in the battle then:

Familiar with Obi Wan's fighting style, the Dark Lord once again got the better of him.

Credit: Lightsabers A Guide to Weapons of the Force, 2010

The quote emphasizes style familiarity and form as the reason Obi Wan lost, rather than connection to the force

Are you sure you got this from the 2010 edition?

Can you take a picture of it?

Nothing new, as with Jinn being past prime, this was stated in the more credible novelizations.

And the quote doesn't say Obi-Wan lost because he was familiar with Obi-Wan's form, it says Dooku won because of his familarity with Kenobi's fighting style.

Latham2000 wrote:And the quote doesn't say Obi-Wan lost because he was familiar with Obi-Wan's form, it says Dooku won because of his familarity with Kenobi's fighting style.

It's the same concept. Yeah this is from the 2010 one

Obi Wan losing or the Count winning mean the same thing. His familiarity with Obi Wan's form is the reason either of that happens in the movie

Kind of weird that it's from the 2010 edition and remained buried for that long

It is not available online. I found it on YT lol

@LOTL What were you doing in the travesty of YT , anyway yeah you are technically correct. What I meant was about Dooku's familarity with Obi-Wan's fighting style as opposed to form, which I find to be an oversimplification, is that it's obviously referring to Dooku's knowledge advantage of Obi-Wan's version of Ataru. Obi-Wan is not a generic Ataru user, his version of Ataru was definitely personalised to his own skill set, like any great fighter. However, Obi-Wan's version of Ataru that he was trained by Qui-Gon, so his version of Ataru was heavily influenced by Qui-Gon, and the problem with this was that Qui-Gon was Dooku's padawan:

"Kenobi's Master had been Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku's own Padawan; Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he knew every weakness of the Ataro form, with its ridiculous acrobatics." — Revenge of the Sith Novel.

Dooku learned all the weaknesses of Ataru from having thousands of sparring matches with Qui-Gon, so he can casually pick apart an Ataru assault from most swordsman of his era (Yoda is an exception), but in addition to that, Dooku has intimate familiarity with Qui-Gon's fighting style because of the amount of times he has sparred with him, so he would have a similar advantage against Obi-Wan whenever he would unleash an Ataru assault, because Obi-Wan's personalised version of Ataru is influenced by Qui-Gon's. In other words, Obi-Wan stinks of Qui-Gon Jinn whenever he uses Ataru against Dooku.

Latham2000 wrote:@LOTL What were you doing in the travesty of YT , anyway yeah you are technically correct. What I meant was about Dooku's familarity with Obi-Wan's fighting style as opposed to form, which I find to be an oversimplification, is that it's obviously referring to Dooku's knowledge advantage of Obi-Wan's version of Ataru. Obi-Wan is not a generic Ataru user, his version of Ataru was definitely personalised to his own skill set, like any great fighter. However, Obi-Wan's version of Ataru that he was trained by Qui-Gon, so his version of Ataru was heavily influenced by Qui-Gon, and the problem with this was that Qui-Gon was Dooku's padawan:

"Kenobi's Master had been Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku's own Padawan; Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he knew every weakness of the Ataro form, with its ridiculous acrobatics." — Revenge of the Sith Novel.

Dooku learned all the weaknesses of Ataru from having thousands of sparring matches with Qui-Gon, so he can casually pick apart an Ataru assault from most swordsman of his era (Yoda is an exception), but in addition to that, Dooku has intimate familiarity with Qui-Gon's fighting style because of the amount of times he has sparred with him, so he would have a similar advantage against Obi-Wan whenever he would unleash an Ataru assault, because Obi-Wan's personalised version of Ataru is influenced by Qui-Gon's. In other words, Obi-Wan stinks of Qui-Gon Jinn whenever he uses Ataru against Dooku.

Yeah

The novels portray Obi Wan losing to him only when he goes on offensive, meaning when he is employing Ataru to attack the Count when he is fighting Anakin on the IH

Correct. Dooku's knowledge advantage of Obi-Wan's Form IV style is unique to their relationship, and Form IV isn't Kenobi's greatest strength anyway. Kenobi RotS visual dictionary also says that Form III Obi-Wan's true style, and RotS novel makes that clear, so it's indisputable that Kenobi's greatest strength is his Form III mastery, and the degree of his mastery is unprecedented.

Latham2000 wrote:Correct. Dooku's knowledge advantage of Obi-Wan's Form IV style is unique to their relationship, and Form IV isn't Kenobi's greatest strength anyway. Kenobi RotS visual dictionary also says that Form III Obi-Wan's true style, and RotS novel makes that clear, so it's indisputable that Kenobi's greatest strength is his Form III mastery, and the degree of his mastery is unprecedented.

It is also notable that only after Obi Wan shows his mastery over Form 3 that the fight begins to be "terrifying" for the Count. At this point, Anakin has already revealed his power to him, so that probably enhances the impressiveness of his mastery as seen by his enemy in the battle

Funnily enough, even TCW doesn't retcon this because Kenobi, even when he is a confirmed Soresu master during TCW era, never uses it against the Count, because it's not optimized for team battles, he only uses Ataru because that's an offensive form, trying to use Soresu in team battles is so ineffective you might as well not fight at all.

Latham2000 wrote:Funnily enough, even TCW doesn't retcon this because Kenobi, even when he is a confirmed Soresu master during TCW era, never uses it against the Count, because it's not optimized for team battles, he only uses Ataru because that's an offensive form, trying to use Soresu in team battles is so ineffective you might as well not fight at all.

He employs Soresu in the battle but then later on changes his style to be offensive to attack the Count from behind which is when he loses then. I am inferring the offensive style is Ataru since that is his main offensive form and the fact that he is highly proficient in the form for a long time

Also you are spot on in observing that Obi Wan's Ataru can be quite influenced by Qui Gon's Ataru which the Count has intimate familiarity with

Indeed, Obi-Wan is basically a Qui-Gon rip off as far as Ataru style is concerned. I misspoke, what I meant to say is this:

Latham2000 wrote:Funnily enough, even TCW doesn't retcon this because Kenobi, even when he is a confirmed Soresu master during TCW era, never uses it against the Count in TCW, because it's not optimized for team battles, he only uses Ataru because that's an offensive form, trying to use Soresu in team battles is so ineffective you might as well not fight at all.

RotS novel is the instance Kenobi uses it, which remains untouched by TCW's retcons.

LOTL wrote:Obi Wan lost on the IH because his opponent was simply familiar with his form in the battle then:

Familiar with Obi Wan's fighting style, the Dark Lord once again got the better of him.

Credit: Lightsabers A Guide to Weapons of the Force, 2010

The quote emphasizes style familiarity and form as the reason Obi Wan lost, rather than connection to the force

And yet the actual film shows kenobi losing because of the force so...

freethedevil wrote:

LOTL wrote:Obi Wan lost on the IH because his opponent was simply familiar with his form in the battle then:

Familiar with Obi Wan's fighting style, the Dark Lord once again got the better of him.

Credit: Lightsabers A Guide to Weapons of the Force, 2010

The quote emphasizes style familiarity and form as the reason Obi Wan lost, rather than connection to the force

And yet the actual film shows kenobi losing because of the force so...

Which the novel clarifies is because he caught Obi Wan off guard which this quote clarifies is because of familiarity

Indeed 

LOTL wrote:

freethedevil wrote:

LOTL wrote:Obi Wan lost on the IH because his opponent was simply familiar with his form in the battle then:

Familiar with Obi Wan's fighting style, the Dark Lord once again got the better of him.

Credit: Lightsabers A Guide to Weapons of the Force, 2010

The quote emphasizes style familiarity and form as the reason Obi Wan lost, rather than connection to the force

And yet the actual film shows kenobi losing because of the force so...

Which the novel clarifies is because he caught Obi Wan off guard which this quote clarifies is because of familiarity

You mean the junior novel. The senior novel, the script, and the film having Kenobi choked out without them clashing blades. Cherrypickers cherrypick,

Dooku doesn't even choke Obi-Wan in the adult novel, he kicks him off the stairs and even makes Obi-Wan's fall even worse by almost immediately following the kick with a Force push/blast. The script doesn't explain what enabled Dooku to Force choke Kenobi IIRC, so it's not mutually exclusive with the junior novel and 2010 sourcebook's explanations. The film doesn't explain it either because they won't always spell things out for us, that is why secondary sources exist.

@freethedevil

the film having Kenobi choked out without them clashing blades.

I'm pretty sure they do clash blades before Dooku ragdolls him in the film.

NotAA3 wrote:@freethedevil

the film having Kenobi choked out without them clashing blades.

I'm pretty sure they do clash blades before Dooku ragdolls him in the film.

Actually no you're right, i misremembered the fight.


I retract my arguments.

FREE THE DEVIL