Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

now there saying the 80% quote means nothing.. 

how far the site have gone is beyond me.

I'll respond once I can finally get my other commitments out of the way. Vader supporters, be patient.

KingofBlades wrote:I literally just said that it doesn't have to be about military power. My main argument was that it cannot be about force power due to the reasons i explain in my post. How about you up your reading comprehension so you actually understand what someone says before you go critiquing arguments

You have no evidence that he isn't talking about force power. And your point about who's more powerful than Darth Vader makes no sense. Palpatine can still be more powerful than Vader, Lucas just doesn't acknowledge him as he has nothing to do with the question. Lucas refers to Luke because he is comparing Vader to his lightside oppostion and Son Luke Skywalker. And for gods sake he is literally talking about two space wizards. So why the hell wouldn't he factor in force power. Hell what if he is talking about both force power and political power. Why don't you acknowledge this instead of desperately trying to dismiss the quote?

I think we need MyGod here to strike a balance.

Latham2000 wrote:I think we need MyGod here to strike a balance.

imao bring the sheevites back from the death then

SithSauce ragdolling.

sithsauce is also ragdollin this match btw

FUCK! I was right in the middle of my response to KingofBlades, but then I accidentally went backwards a page and now it's gone! @Azronger can the moderators please recover it?

Latham2000 wrote:FUCK! I was right in the middle of my response to KingofBlades, but then I accidentally went backwards a page and now it's gone! @Azronger can the moderators please recover it?

I don't think they can, if it wasn't saved as a draft.

This thread 

I'm going to start from scratch then, though it's going to take the piss.

Yeah, unfortunately it cannot be recovered. Make sure to save big posts in drafts or Google docs or some other service so they don't get lost.

You have no evidence that he isn't talking about force power. And your point about who's more powerful than Darth Vader makes no sense. Palpatine can still be more powerful than Vader, Lucas just doesn't acknowledge him as he has nothing to do with the question. Lucas refers to Luke because he is comparing Vader to his lightside oppostion and Son Luke Skywalker. And for gods sake he is literally talking about two space wizards. So why the hell wouldn't he factor in force power. Hell what if he is talking about both force power and political power. Why don't you acknowledge this instead of desperately trying to dismiss the quote

You misinterpreted my point about the emperor. If we were to view Lucas's words through a lens of solely force power, then the implication of Lucas's rhetorical question is that no one is more powerful than Darth Vader in the force. If his mindset was indeed one of force power, then he wouldn't have posed the rhetorical question knowing there is someone far more powerful than Vader. If Charles Boyd were to pose the rhetorical question "Who's more powerful than Revan?" I'd wager he probably isn't referring to force/combative power at that moment in time, given Boyd is intimately aware of Valkorion's supremacy in swtor. Basically, either he seemingly forgot about one of the chief characters of his own mythos, or George isn't speaking in terms of force power at this very moment. It seems to me that its more likely the latter. This is important when discussing his quote about Luke and Vader since he wouldn't be switching his connotation of the word power mid conversation. When it comes to Lucas calling Vader more powerful than Luke specifically, I think there's more likely explanations than a force power interpretation. I talked about Vader commanding fleets and armies while Luke was a member of a rag tag rebellion. While I do feel that plays a role, I'd say its more about Vader's overall image. He's this  individual in an imposing outfit with an equally imposing voice who towers above everyone else. He's the dude in charge, telling people what to do, force choking anyone who dares to cross him. Vader has this image of power that Luke lacks. This is what a child sees when they watch star wars. We should remember that Lucas was responding to this comment and should frame his statements with this context in mind:

Bill Moyers wrote:I’ve had psychotherapists tell me that they use “Star Wars” sometimes to deal with the problems of their child patients. And they’ve said that the most popular character among the children is Darth Vader.

Lucas is explaining why Vader resonates with children, so whatever reasons he gives should be something that a child can understand. In this instance it makes sense for George to be referring to Vader's overall image being a reason kids like him, rather than some supposed force/combat superiority over Luke. I mean, Luke beat Vader at the end of the day, I don't know what kid walks out of the movie theater having just watched RotJ and thinks Vader is more powerful than Luke in a combative sense. However, I can certainly see a kid watching the movies and viewing Vader as the much more imposing/powerful figure in terms of his overall image. 

I think another fact that discredits the force/combat power interpretation is that we know that Lucas holds Vader and Luke as equals when the OT has been finished. We can look at the RotJ script and we see Luke and Vader being portrayed as equals, with any edge that exists being given to Luke:

Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi script wrote:Luke and Vader are engaged in a man-to-man duel of lightsabers even more vicious than the battle on Bespin. But the young Jedi has grown stronger in the interim, and now the advantage shifts to him. Vader is forced back, losing his balance, and is knocked down the stairs. Luke stands at the top of the stairs, ready to attack.

That isn't even mentioning the countless C canon sources putting Vader and Luke as equals:

Star Wars Beware of the Sith wrote:Although Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are equally strong in the Force, their duels are more than just about physical strength.

Star Wars Jedi Battles wrote:Father and son were now equally strong with the Force and equally skilled with their lightsabers. But this battle was more than just physical strength and Force powers

The Official Star Wars Fact File 111 wrote:The fight this time was far more balanced. Vader discovered that Luke was his match.

Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi junior novelization wrote:On the Death Star, Luke and Darth Vader were engaged in a duel that was even more vicious than their battle on Cloud City. Luke had grown stronger since their last encounter, and his skill with his lightsaber had improved greatly. As they swung at each other in the Emperor’s throne room, Luke sensed the advantage had shifted to him.

Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi comic wrote: wrote:
On the Death Star, father and son grimly clash! Brutally, aggressively, Darth Vader brings his full strength and power against the younger man. But unlike the first time they dueled in the carbon-freezing chamber of Bespin's Cloud City, this is a battle of equals. The young Jedi has grown in the interim, and if there is any true advantage, it seems to have shifted to him.

Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi adult novelization wrote:For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City - not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge

Lucas isn't going to be changing his mind on the power dynamic between Luke and Vader nearly 2 decades after the fact. He also isn't trying to create an upheaval to the established lore in a response to a comment about the character aspects of Vader that resonate with children. Arguing Lucas is talking about force power--insofar as it means he think Vader would beat Luke in a fight-- contradicts every single source to ever exist on the matter. Between two interpretations of a source with a degree of ambiguity, we should look for the interpretation that doesn't uproot one of the most established stances in the history of Star Wars. Not only does my interpretation do this, I feel its far more plausible given the context in which the statement was made.

So why the hell wouldn't he factor in force power. Hell what if he is talking about both force power and political power. Why don't you acknowledge this instead of desperately trying to dismiss the quote

 I'm against the idea that he's factoring in force power so much that he believes Vader would beat Luke with the fight. Onto your point about a mix of the two factors, if Vader and Luke were equal in force power but Vader has all the extra non force power stuff added on that I talk about, then Vader would be "more powerful" overall. I'm not against this interpretation, I even think it can function when used in tandem with what I've gone on about. My main point has been that we shouldn't jump to conclusions and assume Lucas just shattered 2 decades worth of lore, especially if other perfectly plausible interpretations exist. Which I feel I've offered 

@SithSauce

SithSauce is still ragdolling, that was a shit post from KoB.

It really do be like that.

There's so many errors in KoB's post I'm still going through it.

B-team

CuckedCurry wrote:B-team

Not even the topic of this thread anymore my man. As with everything else it has become a PT vs OT thread 

Who cares, we could die at any point so let’s at least die with dignity and accept that Fisto’s Shii-Cho grants him a high likelihood of being able to solo 

KingofBlades wrote:

You have no evidence that he isn't talking about force power. And your point about who's more powerful than Darth Vader makes no sense. Palpatine can still be more powerful than Vader, Lucas just doesn't acknowledge him as he has nothing to do with the question. Lucas refers to Luke because he is comparing Vader to his lightside oppostion and Son Luke Skywalker. And for gods sake he is literally talking about two space wizards. So why the hell wouldn't he factor in force power. Hell what if he is talking about both force power and political power. Why don't you acknowledge this instead of desperately trying to dismiss the quote

You misinterpreted my point about the emperor. If we were to view Lucas's words through a lens of solely force power, then the implication of Lucas's rhetorical question is that no one is more powerful than Darth Vader in the force. If his mindset was indeed one of force power, then he wouldn't have posed the rhetorical question knowing there is someone far more powerful than Vader. If Charles Boyd were to pose the rhetorical question "Who's more powerful than Revan?" I'd wager he probably isn't referring to force/combative power at that moment in time, given Boyd is intimately aware of Valkorion's supremacy in swtor. Basically, either he seemingly forgot about one of the chief characters of his own mythos, or George isn't speaking in terms of force power at this very moment. It seems to me that its more likely the latter. This is important when discussing his quote about Luke and Vader since he wouldn't be switching his connotation of the word power mid conversation. When it comes to Lucas calling Vader more powerful than Luke specifically, I think there's more likely explanations than a force power interpretation. I talked about Vader commanding fleets and armies while Luke was a member of a rag tag rebellion. While I do feel that plays a role, I'd say its more about Vader's overall image. He's this  individual in an imposing outfit with an equally imposing voice who towers above everyone else. He's the dude in charge, telling people what to do, force choking anyone who dares to cross him. Vader has this image of power that Luke lacks. This is what a child sees when they watch star wars. We should remember that Lucas was responding to this comment and should frame his statements with this context in mind:

I'm still not understanding. How would Lucas imply that no one is more powerful than Darth Vader if it was in regards to their force abilities?  Did he say definitively that nobody is more powerful than Darth Vader? You are reading too much into a question. And Quite frankly he didn't mention the Emperor because he is irrelevant to the discussion. The answer Lucas gives is specifically about how Vader relates in power to Luke, not how Vader relates in power to The Emperor or anyone else. And going of by your interpretation,The Emperor would still be more powerful than Darth Vader anyway, given that he has more followers, fleets and 2 Death Stars to his name. Oh and lets not forget he is in charge of the whole Empire. You seem to think my interpretation of the answer would contradict Lucas's stance on Emperor>Vader which it doesn't at all. 

Its far more likely for a child to fantasize about themselves having the ability to use cool magic powers and being the most powerful being possible, rather than commanding armies and fleets. Note that might've factored into Lucas's answer but Luke and Vader are space wizards first and foremost not military leaders. So if anything, he is mostly referring to their power in the force but could also be factoring in military power. If Lucas's intention was to make a distinction between their force power and military power with his answer, then he would've made it. But his answer didn't seem to convey this at all.

Bill Moyers wrote:I’ve had psychotherapists tell me that they use “Star Wars” sometimes to deal with the problems of their child patients. And they’ve said that the most popular character among the children is Darth Vader.

Lucas is explaining why Vader resonates with children, so whatever reasons he gives should be something that a child can understand. In this instance it makes sense for George to be referring to Vader's overall image being a reason kids like him, rather than some supposed force/combat superiority over Luke. I mean, Luke beat Vader at the end of the day, I don't know what kid walks out of the movie theater having just watched RotJ and thinks Vader is more powerful than Luke in a combative sense. However, I can certainly see a kid watching the movies and viewing Vader as the much more imposing/powerful figure in terms of his overall image. 

Onto your point about Vader having a more powerful image than Luke.

I'd argue that Luke has just as much of a strong image than Vader. In ROTJ he is all duked out in black. He chokes out two Gamorrean Guards simultaneously. He has a calm presence and voice. He has a green lightsaber, in which this was the first time a green lightsaber made an appearance in Star Wars (This itself creates a powerful image for the audience who's introduction to Star Wars was the OT). He also stood up to the Emperor which is something Vader could never do.

This could just be another factor in Lucas's meaning of power in this discussion. After all power has many meanings, its not just one definition. While having a strong image is certainly an example of power, I highly doubt that's the only thing Lucas meant, and if he did, he would've made that clear in his answer.

"I think another fact that discredits the force/combat power interpretation is that we know that Lucas holds Vader and Luke as equals when the OT has been finished. We can look at the RotJ script and we see Luke and Vader being portrayed as equals, with any edge that exists being given to Luke":

These quotes about Luke matching Vader don’t at all contradict the likely hood that Vader was conflicted when he faced Luke on the Death Star. Vader can still be an equal to Luke while not operating at his highest level.  This is corroborated in the Courtship of Princess Leia
 
"She pointed a finger at Luke, and before Luke even recognized her evil intent, a ripple of Force slammed into him. White lights exploded behind his eyes, and the right side of his face felt as if it had been smashed by a hammer. His left arm and right leg crumpled under their unbearable weight, and he dropped to the ground on one knee, stunned. All the noise and blaster fire and screams of pain died away, became a distant roaring. Gethzerion pointed at him again, twitched her finger, and his eyes lost focus. He felt the hammer blow to his left temple, dropped to his side and rolled over to his back, gasping. Luke stared up at the sky, watching streams of rocks hurtling above him—some propelled by the Force, others hurled by rancors.
Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed, pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion’s spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield.
So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me".
--The Courtship of Princess Leia

Not to mention the film itself supports the idea that Vader was indeed conflicted.

“Search your feelings, Father, you can't do this. I feel the conflict within you. Let go of your hate”.
“Your thoughts betray you father, I feel the good in you, the conflict. You couldn’t bring myself to kill you before and I don’t believe you will destroy me now”

I love how nobody brings these quotes up, which of course are G-Canon.

Finally, according to Luca's second hand man Filoni. ROTJ Luke would get his butt kicked by anyone on the council but he himself has a very high opinion on Vader's power level.

"We used to have this problem in Clone Wars when we would try to put Yoda in a story and it would be like, “Yeah, if Yoda’s there, this isn’t really a problem is it?” That’s because Yoda’s going to go in there and kick everyone’s butt. We all felt that Ahsoka, the only person that could really match her in this time period, blow for blow, would be Vader or the Emperor"

Filoni most certainly doesn't think ROTJ Luke is on Ahsoka's level. So with this information gathered, its almost certain that he supports the notion that Vader wasn't giving it his all when he faced Luke

By the way don't act like Lucas has never contradicted himself before ( "he has done so many times times"). Matt Martin from the official Lucasfilm story group  confirmed this in a tweet. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Main_Page?file=MattMartin-GeorgeLucas-November-4-2018.png
Notice how he implies official storytelling, in which my case (referring to the ROTJ movie) takes precedence over random statements surrounding the film. So if anything Vader's implied hinderance against Luke remains more true than ever, as it was showcased to us twice in the film per the above quotes from Luke Skywalker

And you are aware that Lucas possibly no longer views the Emperor on the same level as Ben Kenobi?  Its entirely plausible that he may have thought Luke and Vader were equals as of ROTJ at one point during the production of the film and then changed his mind.

Nick Gillard on suited Vader
Apologies on the quality of the image, but here is a discussion between a friend and Nick Gillard, where Nick implies Vader could still be a tier 9.
I'm not one to take Nick Gillard's opinions as 100% fact and I certainly don't believe that suited Vader is tier 9 but as you can see in Gillards opinion he views Suited Vader highly despite his decrease in power. Although Gillard's own opinions are separate from Lucas, I highly doubt they are different enough to the point where one supposedly thinks Vader is below TPM Kenobi and the other thinks he is up there with the ROTS Titans. They did work closely with each other after all. So Gillard still views Vader as very powerful and Lucas probably does as well but not to the same extent as Gillard. Hence the 80% quote. 

Can people stop complaining that vader is lOWbalLed all the time because he loses a fight?

Seturna wrote:Can people stop complaining that vader is lOWbalLed all the time because he loses a fight?

I mean, that's just Vader fans in general. There's barely any that don't do it.

Seturna wrote:Can people stop complaining that vader is lOWbalLed all the time because he loses a fight?

Low tbf he is lowballed

Notice how nobody is complaining about Vader being lowballed on the Mace vs Vader thread? Because its believable that a character like Mace can defeat Vader. What's not believable is a character like Coleman Trebor or any average joe Padawan beating Vader. That's when people complain about lowball.

As i said to LoH some days ago.

If he is so loWbAllEd, then why not make an huge blog explaining why vader isn’t sub trebor or ”random padawans”? And explain why vader is at the top

You don't think It's lowballing when a Sith Lord known for his specialty in killing Jedi and mastery of lightsaber combat is being held beneath a padawan?