Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

Seturna wrote:Not if there’s an good case for vader being below the ”padawan”

> Korriban wrote:

Seturna wrote:Not if there’s an good case for vader being below the ”padawan”

And... you happen to think this is a good case?

just FYI, I am working on that exact blog in detail so look forward to that, just curious on now close-minded you are to new ideas?

Seturna wrote:As i said to LoH some days ago.

If he is so loWbAllEd, then why not make an huge blog explaining why vader isn’t sub trebor or ”random padawans”? And explain why vader is at the top

Meatpants wrote:No, it's because nobody knows how to truly debate Vader. Some here could probably do it if they were so inclined.

SithSauce wrote:Azronger could too but I think he's mostly given up ( i don't blame him). Looking forward to Latham's post though

KingofBlades wrote:So what, we're left with two sources that contradict one another? Maybe 1-1 is enough for you to maintain your belief that Vader is >TPM Maul. Fortuantely -- or unfortunately for some -- there are other sources that serve as our tie breaker:

"We've actually never seen real Jedi at work, we've only seen crippled half-droid half-men and young boys that have learned from these old people. So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing" - George Lucas 

Star Wars Episode I Featurette: Fights 

Question: Just how restrictive was that costume?

George Lucas: He couldn’t move at all, really. We had to keep modifying the suit so people could move in it. By the time we got to the first light-saber battle, we realized we weren’t going to be able to do much. And so I accepted it was an old man vs. a half-man, half-machine. But Jedi were supposed to be quite active. So for the next one, we got a really good stunt guy in, one of the best sword fighters in England. And Mark Hamill is a good sword fighter. For the final film, Hayden [Christensen] and Obi-Wan – I mean Ewan – took it very seriously; they trained for months. Those swords are carbon fiber: We went through lots of them, because they were hitting so hard, they would get bent. It’s like learning to dance, only if you make a mistake, you really get hurt.

Source -- George Lucas and the Cult of Darth Vader

KingofBlades wrote:

Since George Lucas set Episode I at a time when the Jedi Knights were at the height of their powers, Gillard ramped up the action, stunt work and, of course, lightsaber duels for the new film.

Starwars.com - Episode I Production Notes

1. Old Ben Kenobi -- this guy's "movements were slowed by age and lack of practice", but "even in his elder years, Kenobi remains a formidable Form III practitioner," Kenobi can't viably perform Ataru esque acrobatics to the degree of his younger self, which in large part is because " prematurely aged as a result of spending 19 years living in the immense heat on the planet of Tatooine, whilst also being exposed to twin suns on a daily basis for a prolonged period of time. Moreover, he was also dealing with ring rust due to being out of practise for several years, and he also dies in ANH. Luke received training from this man, which explains why he's not so flashy and acrobatic as the Jedi of the Prequels. Not to mention, even ESB Luke is better than Ben Kenobi, let alone RotJ Luke --> "A warrior needed to contend with equals. Obi-Wan was gone, and the other Jedi were all extinct, save one, who was the strongest of them all. His own son. He had told the Emperor that Luke Skywalker would join them or die. The real truth was only slightly different: Luke would join Darth Vader or die. It would be something to look forward to. That would be the duel of a lifetime. This wasn’t even exercise." --> granted, this from Shadows of the Empire, a novel that was published in May 1996, before the Prequels were even a thing, so it's ignorant of how good the PT era Jedi were, but the completed Original trilogy had already been around for 13 years at the time of its publication, so it's not ignorant of Ben Kenobi and ESB Luke, so we can use it to say ESB Luke is better than old Ben Kenobi. Fightsaber does say --> "By the time of the Battle of Endor, Luke Skywalker has studied some lightsaber technique from Obi-Wan's journal and greatly advanced his abilities. Without a Master, such advancement would have been impossible for most, but Skywalker's unparalleled aptitude makes him a match for Darth Vader in their fateful duel onboard the second Death Star." --> i.e. Luke studied a lightsaber technique from Obi-Wan's journals, Fightsaber doesn't specify what technique it was, but it was probably Soresu because it praises the technique for "greatly" advancing Luke's abilities, Soresu is a heavily defensively orientated form that is perfect for withstanding pressure fighters, and we know how much of a great Soresu master Obi-Wan Kenobi was, don't we? The quote itself also states that Luke's "unparalleled aptitude" i.e. his raw Skywalker talent, made him a match for Vader on the Death Star, which is unique to Luke's bloodline, there's no-one who is more talented than the Skywalker lineage, unless if you want to be a smartass and bring up Rey, but we don't talk about Rey in Legends threads

KingofBlades wrote:

“We will finally get to see Jedi do what Jedi were designed to do. In the first one, you had this very old Jedi who was ready to go, and one who had been reconstructed who was half human and half machine. The only other Jedi who comes along is Luke, who is sort of semi-trained by Yoda, but never really gets the full training. So you’ve never seen a real Jedi doing what the real Jedi do, until now.” - George Lucas

Star Wars Insider Magazine #35

"Better than training, the Force is. More than experience or speed it gives."

And he had given a demonstration. Three members of the council-Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Billaba, excellent fighters all-had come forward and attacked him. Master Yoda had not been armed, and had not seemed to move more than a meter or so, his tread slow and measured.

Nevertheless, none of the three had been able to lay a finger on him. The lesson had struck powerfully home: Knowledge of the Force was infinitely better than technique." -- Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter.

KingofBlades wrote:

Until the Prequels, the only Jedi we’d seen in combat were old men and an inexperienced youth… and clearly, we hadn’t seen anything. 

Star Wars Insider Magazine #88

KingofBlades wrote:

Before this scene, the lightsaber battles we’d seen in the Star Wars movies involved older Jedi, or Jedi who were yet to become full-fledged Jedi Knights, but here we saw Jedi and Sith fighting when they were at the top of their game.

Star Wars Insider Magazine #131

KingofBlades wrote:

Now you might talk about how this is referring to the fighting choreography of the PT compared to the OT, but this isn't actually addressing anything. George is using the improved choreography to convey his belief that the PT jedi were superior to what we saw in the OT. It doesn't make sense to separate the two. Lets look at one of the above quotes I provided so I can prove my point:

"We've actually never seen real Jedi at work, we've only seen crippled half-droid half-men and young boys that have learned from these old people. So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing" - George Lucas 

Star Wars Episode I Featurette: Fights 

George thinks that we've never seen real jedi at work and that the jedi fighting in the PT are the prime of the jedi. Do you think George is saying this while also thinking "Yeah Vader would wipe the floor with that upstart Maul ". The message is clear, GL thinks that the PT Jedi>OT Jedi. This isn't even exclusive to the quote I used. I invite everyone to read the quotes I provided and then try and imagine the people who wrote/said those quotes also believing, "Yeah Vader would wipe the floor with that upstart Maul ". So in order for your interpretation of a single source to be true, not only does Ethan's Insider quote have to be wrong for seemingly no apparent reason, 5 other quotes(Some coming from GL himself) must also be wrong. That's the difference between my interpretation and yours imo. My interpretation works perfectly with all the sources I have provided you, while your interpretation flies contrary to half a dozen quotes. It seems clear to me which is the obvious choice.

"Perhaps the strongest disciple of Palpatine after Darth Vader, Executor Sedriss remained loyal to the Emperor after the death of his clone over the Rebels' Pinnacle Base." -- Handbook 3: Dark Empire

KingofBlades wrote:

I've pretty much addressed all of this but I'll pick a few of the points out that I haven't dealt with. You're correct that theoretically, Vader becoming far weaker than Palpatine doesn't neccessairly make him sub TPM Maul. However its still a possibility. All you've done is confirmed that the GL quotes you provided do not necessarily 
contradict your stance. That doesn't change the fact that the quote Ethan  provided, along with the 5 other quotes I've brought to the table, do in fact contradict your stance.

Dave Filoni: And then Savage is a very poorly trained Dark Side wielder. He's all... He's all aggression and power. He's kind of like the Hulk - but he doesn't have a lot of discipline, he doesn't have a lot of know how. Maul is a super dangerous threat because he’s been trained for years, he’s really adept, but he’s broken. So he’s kind of in the Vader-realm, and he’s a bit severed from what he knew, which was having a master, but he’s well trained by Sidious in all types of Sith ways, not the least of which is manipulation.

Source ― Weekly ForceCast: May 4, 2012

Question: So… Vader and Maul are going to totally fight next season, right?

Dave Filoni: [Laughs] I wouldn’t count on that. What I think is interesting is that Maul has an awareness of him. I think that that’s a particularly interesting thing. Maul obviously has been somehow keeping tabs on what’s going on in the galaxy and probably wishes he was more a part of it. That’s another bit of wonderful story, which is: What has Maul been up to? How did Maul get on this desolate planet? And we obviously don’t answer those questions at this time, but it is stuff we’ve considered when we wrote these stories. It never came to be that he would face off with Vader, at least not yet. Again, the main reason being that, while that’s a fun notion in a lot of ways, the personal story of the relationship between Ahsoka and Darth Vader as Anakin is way too compelling and needed all the screen time. As we were working out how this episode was going to go, it became clearer and clearer to me that I couldn’t have all these other people in play when we got to Darth Vader. It’s too distracting. At one point we had several of the characters still battling Inquisitors and Darth Vader was in the mix. I just felt like everybody kind of had to be thinned out and exhausted, and then here comes the worst thing of all. So you really feel like you have no chance whatsoever. So just organically, it happened that way over a period. We’ll have to see. You never know, you never know. The nerd-tacular obsession with Vader vs. Maul. It’s hard to say – I mean, Vader is hard to top. Something George is pretty adamant of all the time was that Vader, you know… You never want to do anything to diminish him.

Source -- Star Wars Rebels: Dave Filoni on Ahsoka's Fate, Maul's Return and Much More

KingofBlades wrote:

Ethan's quote does say that yes. There being only 3 jedi in the OT just means that the PT Jedi are >those 3 individuals. As to the context of which jedi it refers to, I agree that its silly to interpret this quote hyper literally and claim that literally every single member of the jedi order is above RotJ Luke, but I think we can reasonably assert that its talking about the jedi who are fighting in the films, hence the line, "Jedi from the Prequels would demonstrate far more power and agility" with the key word being demonstrate. TPM Kenobi definitely falls under this bracket, him being not being directly mentioned doesn't mean he isn't apart of it. However, if we want to strip the quote down to only what it can tell us with absolute certainty, we can say without doubt that at least Qui Gon is "far more powerful" then the OT jedi, which would include RotJ Vader's equal in Luke Skywalker. 

KingofBlades wrote:

The two passages aren't connected so no reason to treat them as if they're apart of the same quote. Not to mention I've shown what is required to be the case in order for your interpretation to be accepted. Are you willing to fly in the face of 6 quotes? I also think I've showed why TPM Kenobi should be taken as part of the quote, even if he isn't explicitly mentioned. At the very least, I think we should be able to agree that we can reliably use the quote to say that Qui Gon is above RotJ Luke, given that he's the one who is explicitly mentioned. Personally, I feel this goes beyond just Ethan's quote. When there are so many other quotes putting PT>OT, I think we should look for a plausible alternative interpretation to your quote that doesn't contradict all the surrounding evidence. Which I feel I've offered.

Some people might be using this to put Vader as low as possible out of hate for this character, but this isn't me. One need only look at some of my  first posts on this sight. I held Vader with ROTS Kenobi. I didn't lower Vader out of some spite filled agenda, I've adjusted my stance after seeing new evidence. I hope you genuinely consider what I've said and not just hand wave it as some Vader trolling/bait.

Latham2000 wrote:The Vader camp can rest now, I spent 4 hours writing that and now I'm knackered. I don't think I can devote anymore of my time, so if this continues, sorry Vader supporters, but I can't help you any further.

Latham wrote:This is not a confirmation that Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi for 2 reasons. First and foremost, George Lucas's remarks are referring to the choreagraphy of the action scenes in ANH, because whilst he is making those remarks, the Featurette itself is showing the viewer Ben Kenobi giving Luke his father's lightsaber, Darth Vader's duel with Ben Kenobi on the Death Star, as well as Luke Skywalker training blaster bold deflection under the tutelage of old Ben Kenobi, all of these scenes are from ANH, the first movie of the the Original Trilogy, TPM itself is the first movie of the Prequel trilogy, so it's likely that the featurette itself was giving the viewers a reminder a comparison of how the previous trilogy's first outing turned out with the action scenes because TPM is the first outing of the Prequel trilogy, and there's no emphasis on the action in ESB and RotJ. Lucas's specific remark about Vader being "half-droid, half-man" is specifically about ANH Vader and we know that it is exclusively limited to ANH Vader, because he clarifies this 6 years later, whilst the entire PT has been finished and released to the public, in this interview:

"We've actually never seen real Jedi at work, we've only seen crippled half-droid half-men and young boys that have learned from these old people. So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing" - George Lucas 

Star Wars Episode I Featurette: Fights 

Latham wrote:Lucas says the costume that the stuntman playing Vader in ANH was so restrictive that he could barely move, and because Lucas couldn't do much about that, he accepted ANH Vader as being "half-man, half-machine" by that standard, simply because the costume itself was restrictive. ESB Vader in contrast, is played by a "really good stunt guy" who is "one of the best sword fighters in England" and he also says "Mark Hamill is a good sword fighter" as well, all of this is coming from the mouth of the same George Lucas who the Vader skeptics use as the basis that Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi, even though the "half man, half-machine" remarks is exclusively limited to ANH Vader because the stuntman's costume was really restrictive, and doesn't at all extend to ESB Vader, because he was played by a "really good stunt guy" who is "one of the best sword fighters in England" by Lucas's line of thought. So if we're going to be consistent with appealing to Lucas's line of thought, we cannot argue that ESB Vader, and RotJ Vader by extension, is a "half-man, half-machine" because Lucas has made it clear that he isn't, and we all have to agree that ESB Vader is a far superior swordsman than ANH Vader, a view in itself that is directly supported by the Fightsaber article saying ESB Vader is far more formidable than ANH Vader. 

So for argument's sake, even if I agreed that Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi -- which I do not at all, and probably never will -- TPM Kenobi's supremacy over Vader would be exclusively limited to ANH Vader, but it wouldn't extend to ESB/RotJ Vader because he is not a "half-man, half-machine" by Lucas's line of thought, so the worst case scenario for the Vader camp is that ANH Vader, the "half-droid, half-man," is sub-TPM Kenobi, but I've said that I do not agree with the intepretation that he has said that ANH Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi, and now we're following to my second reason why I do not agree that Lucas is saying that Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi - not only does Lucas not even mention TPM Kenobi specifically, he literally says "[size=13]So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing"[/size] --> Lucas says that he wanted to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi to be a more energetic and faster version of what was done for the Original trilogy. This in itself actually disconfirms the notion that TPM Kenobi is better than ANH Vader because when taking the entire Prequel trilogy and Lucas's line of thought into perspective, TPM Kenobi is not a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi because the same George Lucas worked with Nick Gillard on a system of levels grading the PT fighters from 1 to 10 (1 , 2 ). Kenobi as of TPM is a level 7 fighter, but as of RotS he is a level 8 fighter, Gillard has confirmed this in the RotS behind the scenes, saying that Kenobi has gone up one level from TPM to RotS (3 ), and there are probably a billion C canon sources talking Obi-Wan's growth from TPM to RotS, so you cannot argue that appeal to Lucas's remarks from the TPM featurette to lock Vader (ANH Vader, mind you) beneath TPM Kenobi, who isn't even a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi from Lucas's line of thought, otherwise you are committing a gross double standard, and can you honestly look me in the eye and tell me that TPM Kenobi is prime Kenobi? I hope not. All that you can reasonably conclude from this is that RotS Kenobi is better than ANH Vader, which I have no qualms accepting that because that can also be proven by C canon sources too

Latham wrote:As for Lucas's remarks about a "Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi," I think the most reasonable intepretation is that he's referring to Qui-Gon Jinn because the first lightsaber duel that we saw in the Prequels was Qui-Gon's encounter with Maul on Tatooine, though even where we might have a potential problem because TPM novel and StarWars.com state that Qui-Gon is slightly past his prime (4 ), so TPM Jinn isn't really a "Jedi in his prime fighting in the Prime of the Jedi" by that standard if we're going honest. However, these sources are C canon, George probably considers TPM Jinn as "a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi" because the C canon sources that say Qui-Gon is slightly past his prime revolves around the idea that he's 60 years old, but IIRC, this was an idea that was toyed around with before Liam Neeson was casted as Qui-Gon, the TPM novel, like all 3 of the Prequels, were based on an incomplete screenplays of the movies themselves. Liam Neeson was 45 years old during the production of TPM, which was in 1997, so he's not even close the character's supposed age in the novel. Now in case anyone accuses me of double standard by saying Ben Kenobi is 57 years old but Alec Guinness was 5 years older during the production of ANH, or that Darth Vader was 45 years old but was played by Sebastian Shaw, who was in his 70s during the production of RotJ, Ben Kenobi prematurely aged from being exposed to the heat of twin suns for 19 years during his life on Tatooine, and Ben himself suffered from depression and trauma, which can also cause premature aging. Vader suffered from Dark Side degradation because of many years of chronic use of the Dark Side, and it's no secret that he has had crippling depression. Liam Neeson was playing a character who was in great physical shape, and even the sources saying that Jinn was approaching 60, praise Jinn's physical prowess. Star Wars Insider #131 however, says that the battle between Jinn and Maul on Tatooine, was when they were "at the top of their game" which implies that Qui-Gon in his prime during TPM (it also implies that Maul was in his prime during TPM but we know that's largely been retconned by TCW), which is in line with Lucas's remarks about "a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi" in TPM featurette, and Jinn doesn't make it alive past TPM anyway. At best, all what you can reasonably conclude is that TPM Qui-Gon, and TPM Maul by extension (because he's a level 8 fighter , whereas Jinn is a level 7 in Lucas's line of thought), are better swordsman than ANH Vader, I don't have any qualms with Jinn and Maul having supremacy over ANH Vader as swordsmen, the latter having supremacy over Vader is consistent with Resurrection (a comic tailor made for those wanting an answer to these popular Vader vs Maul debates) showing Vader narrowly overcoming the resurrected Maul through superior durability and connection to the Dark Side after being outmatched by him in finnese, speed and agility. That's still not enough to say that Qui-Gon would beat ANH Vader, because being a superior swordsman alone doesn't guarantee it when Vader is stronger, tougher, more durable and resilient and more powerful in the Force than Qui-Gon (we'll got to this part later). But not's not get ahead of ourselves and say that they're also better swordsmen than ESB/RotJ Vader, who isn't a "half-man, half-machine," that's plain disengenious.

Latham wrote:The Jedi are at the height of their powers during the Prequel era and Gillard ramped up the choreagraphy for TPM. Great, but this doesn't definitively prove that Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi because it's not a comparison between them. I can easily and reasonably argue that the Jedi are at the height of their powers during the Prequel era because there are hundreds, if not thousands of Jedi, during that era, and they've all got the respect of the Republic. And before you pull that "faster choreagraphy means they're better than the OT fighters" card based on this quote, being more flashy, flamboyant and acrobatic doesn't automatically indicate superiority. The in-universe explanation for why the PT fighters are more flashy, flamboyant and acrobatic than the OT fighters are old Ben Kenobi, Luke Skywalker, Yoda and Darth Vader, and their fighting styles just don't work like that. Luke Skywalker is a Jedi Knight who recieved training from the aforementioned fighters, and let's talk about why these guys are not flashy, flamboyant and acrobatic as many of the Prequel era fighters:

Latham wrote:1. Old Ben Kenobi -- this guy's "movements were slowed by age and lack of practice", but "even in his elder years, Kenobi remains a formidable Form III practitioner," Kenobi can't viably perform Ataru esque acrobatics to the degree of his younger self, which in large part is because " prematurely aged as a result of spending 19 years living in the immense heat on the planet of Tatooine, whilst also being exposed to twin suns on a daily basis for a prolonged period of time. Moreover, he was also dealing with ring rust due to being out of practise for several years, and he also dies in ANH. Luke received training from this man, which explains why he's not so flashy and acrobatic as the Jedi of the Prequels. Not to mention, even ESB Luke is better than Ben Kenobi, let alone RotJ Luke --> "A warrior needed to contend with equals. Obi-Wan was gone, and the other Jedi were all extinct, save one, who was the strongest of them all. His own son. He had told the Emperor that Luke Skywalker would join them or die. The real truth was only slightly different: Luke would join Darth Vader or die. It would be something to look forward to. That would be the duel of a lifetime. This wasn’t even exercise." --> granted, this from Shadows of the Empire, a novel that was published in May 1996, before the Prequels were even a thing, so it's ignorant of how good the PT era Jedi were, but the completed Original trilogy had already been around for 13 years at the time of its publication, so it's not ignorant of Ben Kenobi and ESB Luke, so we can use it to say ESB Luke is better than old Ben Kenobi. Fightsaber does say --> "By the time of the Battle of Endor, Luke Skywalker has studied some lightsaber technique from Obi-Wan's journal and greatly advanced his abilities. Without a Master, such advancement would have been impossible for most, but Skywalker's unparalleled aptitude makes him a match for Darth Vader in their fateful duel onboard the second Death Star. " --> i.e. Luke studied a lightsaber technique from Obi-Wan's journals, Fightsaber doesn't specify what technique it was, but it was probably Soresu because it praises the technique for "greatly" advancing Luke's abilities, Soresu is a heavily defensively orientated form that is perfect for withstanding pressure fighters, and we know how much of a great Soresu master Obi-Wan Kenobi was, don't we? The quote itself also states that Luke's "unparalleled aptitude" i.e. his raw Skywalker talent, made him a match for Vader on the Death Star, which is unique to Luke's bloodline, there's no-one who is more talented than the Skywalker lineage, unless if you want to be a smartass and bring up Rey, but we don't talk about Rey in Legends threads 


2. Yoda -- between ESB and RotJ, Luke recieved training from Yoda, but from a version of Yoda who is not only in exile, but has retired himself from lightsaber duelling to humble himself from the hubris the Jedi had in the Prequels, so Luke's training under Yoda heavily revolved around developing his relationship with the Force, rather than lightsaber combat, which took a backseat to the Force. Luke honed his lightsaber skills through training between ESB and RotJ, not from Yoda (as far as I am aware), but from Obi-Wan's journal.

3. Darth Vader -- suited Vader is not the typical flashy and acrobatic duelists that we see in the Prequels because his mobility is limited in comparison to pre-suit Anakin/Vader's movements --> "Both are limited, Vader by his cybernetic body parts..." -->  "...Darth Vader— recalling the grievous injuries he suffered during their last encounter—  fought his former Master with apprehension, while his cybernetic body reduced his actions..." --> hence why he's not as flashy and flamboyant. While suited Vader is not as mobile as his pre-suit self, this doesn't automatically mean he has shit mobility, it means that he's not as mobile as RotS Anakin/Vader, who isn't anyone to scoff at given that the RotS novel claims that he's the fastest Jedi ever, we know that his Vader's suit provided him "...with great mobility and strength..." --> but Vader's reliance on flashy acrobatics is minimal because his fighting style is a "refined version of Djem So, a fighting style that incorporated elements of Ataru, Soresu, and Makashi." --> i.e. Vader's fighting style is primarily strength orientated (that's what Djem So is about), though it also includes elements of other forms such as Ataru, Soresu and Makashi. These are elements of Vader's unconventional "refined version" of Djem So, they are not Vader's primary forms, which is why Vader is not prominent for being a flashy and acrobatic duelist. This is relevant to Luke because the reason why he's not such a flashy and acrobatic duelist, despite having better mobility than Vader, is because his fighting style is an imitation of Vader's fighting style thanks to his raw talent --> "... mirrors Vader's own Form V technique and responds with a furious demonstration of Form V's raw strength. An observing Jedi Master would be astonished at such instantaneous learning in battle..." --> Luke's fighting style is heavily centered on copying Vader's fighting style, which is lacking in the typical Prequel era acrobatics, this isn't to say that Luke has the same mobility restrictions that Vader has, he doesn't - he actually performs 2 acrobatic backflips on their duel on the Death Star, but it was specifically when he voluntarily chose to stop his earlier assault, and he performs these acrobatics as a defensive tactic to dodge Vader's assault, but throughout the rest of the duel, he is mirroring Vader's use of Djem So while unleashing an assault on Vader, which didn't involve the use of acrobatics.

Latham wrote:Much of this quote isn't offering anything new in this debate. George make sthe typical remark that ANH Vader is half-man, half-machine, but worded as "half human and half machine" this time, which doesn't nothing more than a difference in wording/phrasing, and we know that standard only applies to ANH Vader because as I have proven earlier. Not to mention, your quotation of Lucas comes from Star Wars Insider #35, which was published in September 1997, whereas Lucas clarifies his those remarks in George Lucas and The Cult of Darth Vader 8 years later i.e. 2005. In fact, your quotation of Lucas's 1997 remark actually proves my point because the entire sentence reads as "In the first one, you had this very old Jedi who was ready to go, and one who had been reconstructed who was half human and half machine."

If you're willfully ignorant the very beginning of the sentence reads as "IN THE FIRST ONE", WHICH IS A NEW HOPE.



The only thing that's new is that Lucas says that Luke the only other Jedi and he is "sort of semi-trained by Yoda, but never really gets the full training. So you’ve never seen a real Jedi doing what the real Jedi do, until now." --> Luke is isn't a real Jedi doing what real Jedi do from the Prequels... Because he never gets the full training, so I guess Luke sucks in comparison to the Prequel era Jedi because of incomplete Jedi training, right?

Latham wrote:Nice! Another quote that says "clearly, we hadn't seen anything" by shit talking the OT for having "old men" like Ben Kenobi and "inexperienced youth" like Luke Skywalker, insinuating that what we see in the Prequels is better. Since it doesn't specify the Prequel era fighters after saying "clearly, we hadn't seen anything," it doesn't validate the Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi stance given that TPM Kenobi according to TPM novel "... brought youth and stamina to the combat, but he had fought in only a few contests and was not battle hardened." so he's also an "inexperienced youth" like Luke because his strengths are "youth and stamina" due to only being in "a few contests" and by default and was "not battle hardened" by that standard. Funnily enough, if we take your quote literally, then AotC Kenobi and even RotS Kenobi isn't really that different because he was beaten by Count Dooku, an old man, on both occassions. And since there's so many Jedi fighters in the Prequel trilogy, and none of them are mentioned alongside your quotation of the Insider magazine, arguing that it's affirming TPM Kenobi's superiority over the OT fighters is just absurd.

George Lucas wrote:“In this rendition, Vader was half-man, half-machine, and Obi-Wan was pretty much an old man, so this fight was a hard one for them. It wasn’t an acrobatic, jump-around, fast fight. It was a hard fight to fight, because they’re both kind of old Jedi.”

Latham wrote:All that quote tells us is that Darth Maul's battle with Qui-Gon Jinn is different than the lightsaber battles than in the Original trilogy, because Maul and Qui-Gon are "Jedi and Sith fighting when they were at the top of their game" i.e. they're in their primes (this quote also self destructs because Maul's prime is actually in TCW era), whereas the lightsaber battles in the Original trilogy had Ben Kenobi, who is an "older Jedi" and Luke Skywalker who is a yet to become a "full-fledged Jedi Knight" and Maul and Qui-Gon, are neither Maul or Qui-Gon, at least according to this quote, are old men or yet to become Jedi Knights. No shit they're not because Maul is a Sith Lord and Qui-Gon is not an old man as far as this quote is concerned.

Latham wrote:As I said earlier, this quote explicitly states that Sedriss was "perhaps" the strongest disciple of Palpatine after Vader, meaning that Vader is Palpatine's strongest disciple. There is some define ambiguity on whether Sedriss is actually second to Vader, but it is very clear that Vader is the top dog and the quote certainly applies to TPM Maul (TPM Jinn and TPM Kenobi's superior) because it doesn't impose any limitations to any era or faction, and that version of Maul served and obeyed Palpatine without question, Shadow Hunter even says that if Palpatine ordered Maul to commit suicide, he'd do it. Not to mention, the source itsself was published in April 2000, a year after Maul made his debut in TPM that was publicly released in May 1999. Not to mention, this is also consistent with the Resurrection comic, published for the purpose of giving the answer to "the answer the heated fan debate -- who's tougher: Darth Maul or Darth Vader?" (view ) and also "Vader vs Maul The Brawl to settle it all!" (view ) which is self explanatory. What happens there? A pre-prime Vader, albeit after getting knocked on his ass by Maul in their lightsaber duel, stabbed himself in the gut whilst stabbing the resurrected Maul at the same time in act of self-hatred - Vader is alive, while the dying Maul, shocked, asks Vader what he could hate so much that enabled him to achieve victory, Vader's answer is "Myself" thereby proving that his own hatred is greater than Maul's hatred, indicating greater strength in the Force because Vader's hatred was potent enough to enable him to survive being stabbed in the gut, whereas Maul died from being stabbed by Vader. Keep in mind that Maul has a hate boner for Jedi, and wanted to prove himself to Vader, who Maul repeatedly mocks for being a former Jedi, and yet he was outmatched when his infamous hatred was tested against Vader's hatred. Can you still look me in the eye and tell me that quote means Vader's Force strength is than than Qui-Gon's, who is inferior to Maul?

"Perhaps the strongest disciple of Palpatine after Darth Vader, Executor Sedriss remained loyal to the Emperor after the death of his clone over the Rebels' Pinnacle Base." -- Handbook 3: Dark Empire

Latham wrote:If Vader is supposed to be sub-TPM Kenobi and sub-TPM Jinn, then why does Dave Filoni, a producer of TCW who gets his Star Wars from George Lucas from spending countless hours working with him for 4-5 years, say that Maul is "kind of in the Vader-realm" for being "super dangerous threat because he's been trained for years" by "by Sidious in all types of Sith ways, not the least of which is manipulation" in 2012, for the sake of praising and hyping Vader as the big boss and make the point why Maul, and Vader by extension, are above Savage? Don't tell me that Filoni thinks that Vader, Maul and Savage are all sub-TPM Kenobi, because that's retarded. Not to mention, we also have this statement from Filoni:

Dave Filoni: And then Savage is a very poorly trained Dark Side wielder. He's all... He's all aggression and power. He's kind of like the Hulk - but he doesn't have a lot of discipline, he doesn't have a lot of know how. Maul is a super dangerous threat because he’s been trained for years, he’s really adept, but he’s broken. So he’s kind of in the Vader-realm, and he’s a bit severed from what he knew, which was having a master, but he’s well trained by Sidious in all types of Sith ways, not the least of which is manipulation.

“That’s just me talking too, that’s not anything George said to me, because I’m a fan just like you.”

IGN: In “Shadow Warrior,” you had the unlikely but fascinating battle of the Gungans versus Grievous. It’s in the rain, it’s really intense… Was that a lot of fun to approach that and see how that would play out?


Filoni: Yeah, because that was a huge challenge. I think I’ve said before how I went back and forth on that one with George several times saying, “Wow, if we do this to Grievous, I think that’s going to be a big, big loss for him. His credibility’s going to go down.” You know, we argued about it back and forth several times trying to figure out was that going to be the best move. George was always pretty resolute that it was going to be fine, and he talked with me through how we could achieve it. And I thought, “Well, if we’re going to take him out, then we have to lose something pretty big on the good guys’ side to make the sacrifice seem pretty meaningful.” So we had to take out Tarpals, which is pretty sad actually

Latham wrote:This is from 2016. Dave Filoni quite plainly says that Vader is hard to top because George was "pretty adamant of all the time" that you never want to do anything to diminish him by making him lose to Maul -- Filoni made sure that Vader would be hard to top  at the request of George Lucas. Yes this is referring to Canon Vader, but actually helps my point because the reason why Filoni is making sure that Vader is the top dog in Canon was out of respect to George Lucas's vision, but George no longer has any creative control over Star Wars, Filoni has the license to take creative liberty if he wanted to, he's not at all beholden to what Lucas wants,, but he chooses not to take creative liberty because of how highly Lucas thought of Vader. How the fuck would Lucas be so "adamant" about not wanting Vader to be diminished if he considers Vader to be sub-TPM Kenobi/Jinn? Or is it that TPM Jinn/Kenobi that high on the food chain that Vader, Dooku and Maul are really inferior to these guys? Are TPM Kenobi and TPM Jinn the real threat badasses in Star Wars? Did Qui-Gon lose to Darth Maul because of PIS? Are all the quotes talking about TPM Maul's superiority to TPM Qui-Gon and TPM Kenobi (individually) wrong because of some ambigious remarks that Lucas made back in 1999? Are they now level 9 fighters?

Latham wrote:Already addressed this. And I can easily argue that "Jedi from the Prequels would demonstrate far more power and agility" is referring to the level of speed and pace that they fight with, and I'm not forcing any contradictions with that approach because neither Maul or Qui-Gon actually make use of telekinetic attacks during their duel. TPM Kenobi doesn't fall under this bracket unless if both Vader and Maul are sub-TPM Kenobi and sub-TPM Jinn.

 Oh and given that this is supposed to be the "brawl to settle it all" it would make more sense for this to refer to RotJ Vader rather than ANH Vader. Using a version of Vader, who per your admission is inferior to his RotJ incarnation, defeats the entire purpose of the comic's existence. So RotJ vader holding his own over tpm maul briefly doesn't prove anything.