Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

March 31st 2020, 3:41 pm

KingofBlades wrote:

SithSauce wrote:

KingofBlades wrote:What does the OP even mean by don't lowball lmao. Are you saying people who don't hold Vader as high as you want shouldn't be allowed to post their thoughts.

As in the trolling aka sub tpm Kenobi

Why is that trolling? Are people not allowed to hold that stance legitimately?

let me ask you this, if I said Revan was sub TPM Kenobi level, would that trigger you, and would you take me seriously?

March 31st 2020, 3:43 pm

SithSauce wrote:

KingofBlades wrote:

SithSauce wrote:

KingofBlades wrote:What does the OP even mean by don't lowball lmao. Are you saying people who don't hold Vader as high as you want shouldn't be allowed to post their thoughts.

As in the trolling aka sub tpm Kenobi

Why is that trolling? Are people not allowed to hold that stance legitimately?

let me ask you this, if I said Revan was sub TPM Kenobi level, would that trigger you, and would you take me seriously?

No and yes.

March 31st 2020, 3:50 pm

@SithSauce Whether or not I would be displeased at seeing someone say that doesn't matter; I wouldn't prohibit someone from voicing their opinions on a thread lol.

March 31st 2020, 4:05 pm

Neither is Latham. He's asking that you offer reasons and not obvious bait.

March 31st 2020, 4:06 pm

duo slays,since windu is not on the team

March 31st 2020, 4:13 pm

BoD wrote:Neither is Latham. He's asking that you offer reasons and not obvious bait.

Thats not what was said. He said to not "lowball". Giving reasons and lowballing aren't mutually exclusive. As to the bait thing I again ask what does that even mean. Can someone not be serious when they say Vader is sub TPM Kenobi?

March 31st 2020, 4:16 pm

Of course they can, but if they know better and do it anyway that's what bait is.

March 31st 2020, 4:20 pm

A page ago I literally explained what I meant by low balling:

Latham2000 wrote:

KingofBlades wrote:What does the OP even mean by don't lowball lmao. Are you saying people who don't hold Vader as high as you want shouldn't be allowed to post their thoughts.

I mean no trolling/shitposting.

Now stop being a pain in my ass.

March 31st 2020, 4:20 pm

Let’s stay on topic.

March 31st 2020, 4:22 pm

HellfireUnit wrote:I mean whether lowballing or not, Ethan provided a small yet an effective case. I expect from Vader supporters the same and explain their reasoning why Vader should win here. Star Wars debating won't go strong if noone debates.

I agree. If Vader supporters expect Vader not to be down sub-TPM Kenobi and the like, then they need to put in the effort to argue against it, not whine about "lowballing".

March 31st 2020, 4:23 pm Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)

You're right Cilghal we should go back on topic. The duo lose because they are both sub TPM Kenobi per the quote Ethan provided to us.

March 31st 2020, 4:24 pm

Also, I don’t see how arguing Vader below TPM Kenobi is bait or trolling. It’s a perfectly arguable position backed up by some sources, depending on how you interpret them.

March 31st 2020, 4:25 pm

MasterCilghal wrote:Also, I don’t see how arguing Vader below TPM Kenobi is bait or trolling. It’s a perfectly arguable position backed up by some sources, depending on how you interpret them.

I mean, tbf, Vader being sub-Dooku was heretical pre-2019, so we'd expect a gradual shift towards a "vader sucks is okay" mindset.

March 31st 2020, 5:03 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Yeah... No. This is the only time I'm entertaining this "HUR DUR LEGENDS VADER IS SUB-TPM KENOBI" nonsense. First and foremost, we have this source saying that after Maul got cut in half by Kenobi in TPM, he was replaced by more Dooku and Vader, who were more powerful than him:

Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 2 2019-04-22

Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 2 2019-04-22

And before anyone resorts to semantics by saying this is referring to pre-suit Vader because it talks about Sidious taking on new apprentices, the quote itself isn't specifically referring to Vader as of the time he replaced Dooku and limiting supremacy it to pre-suit Vader. It says that Sidious replaced Maul with even more powerful apprentices, starting with Dooku and continuing with Vader, the latter of whom is mentioned as also being Dooku's replacement, which goes without saying. Vader being Dooku's replacement didn't expire the moment he became a cyborg, he remained Dooku's replacement until he returned to the Light and betrayed Sidious by chucking him down a shaft on the Death Star. As for the version of Vader that's being talked about, it's talking about suited Vader because on the exact same page, there has a sidenote talking about Vader betraying Sidious by throwing him to his death in Return of the Jedi whilst showing us an image of Sidious hurled down the shaft by Vader. That is the evidence for the quote referring to RotJ Vader, Vader skeptics can't argue against that with semantics.

As the OP, I made it very clear that this is RotJ Vader and RotJ Luke vs the B-Team, so this quote saying that RotJ Vader is more powerful than TPM Maul is relevant. This automatically locks TPM Kenobi beneath RotJ Vader because TPM Maul is factually more powerful than TPM Kenobi because he's been confirmed to be a level 8 fighter, whereas TPM/AotC Kenobi is a level 7 fighter in George Lucas/Nick Gillard's system, which many of you hold to as the gold standard of power levels. This reinforced by the sourcebook Jedi Battles:

"In a lightsaber duel, confidence is always a good thing. But when confidence turns to arrogance, the duelist can easily throw away what seems to be a certain victory.

Sith Lord Darth Maul was so sure of his skills that he believed he could defeat two Jedi at once. When Maul battled Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi at the same time on Naboo, at first he seemed right. Thanks to his mastery of martial arts and his deadly saberstaff, Darth Maul was a fearsome opponent for the Jedi. Qui-Gon was fatally injured by the clash, and although Obi-Wan fought on bravely, it was clear that the Sith was more powerful.

Maul's Force push left Obi-Wan hanging from a pipe, having lost his lightsaber, and it looked as if Maul would finish off the Jedi. But his arrogance got the better of him. He stopped for a moment to taunt his opponent. Obi-Wan summoned all of his strength and used the Force to retrieve Qui-Gon's weapon, defeating Maul with one blow. Darth Maul was destroyed, a victim of his own arrogance." — Star Wars Jedi Battles (2013).

^ This is a commentary on TPM Maul's 1v1 with TPM Kenobi following the death of Qui-Gon. Keep in mind that Kenobi was ultra rage amped in that 1v1 because he witnessed Maul murder his surrogate father, and yet Maul was still more powerful than the ultra rage amped Kenobi. We know that the rage boost helped Obi-Wan, the official Star Wars databank says that Obi-Wan's rage boost caught Maul off guard, saying "Seeing his Master murdered caused Obi-Wan to press his attack aggressively, catching Maul off-guard. When Maul regained his composure he was able to Force-push Obi-Wan into a melting pit, where he held on for dear life." --> saying that Obi-Wan's aggression initially caught Maul off guard, but he eventually regained his composure and and managed Force push Kenobi into the pit. TPM Novel also says that Maul was caught off guard by Kenobi's "wild assault" if that's not enough.

Moral of the story: RotJ Vader > TPM Maul > ultra rage amped TPM Kenobi >>>> standard TPM Kenobi. Now stop advocating this Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi madness.

March 31st 2020, 5:15 pm

@Latham2000 Ethan made a fairly concise case for why Jinn > ROTJ Luke ~ Vader, so I mean, there's that.

March 31st 2020, 5:20 pm

finally someone need to say it good post latham

March 31st 2020, 5:22 pm

IG wrote:@Latham200 Ethan made a fairly concise case for why Jinn > ROTJ Luke ~ Vader, so I mean, there's that.

He cited a quote saying that Maul and Qui-Gon have better power and agility than the Jedi of the OT... But he didn't tell us the date of the quote. It's irreconcilable with the quotes that I have cited, because Qui-Gon, a level 7 fighter, is less powerful than Maul, a level 8 fighter, who in turn is less powerful than RotJ Vader, who isn't even a Jedi. My quotes are from 2005 and 2013.

March 31st 2020, 5:40 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

HellfireUnit wrote:I mean whether lowballing or not, Ethan provided a small yet an effective case. I expect from Vader supporters the same and explain their reasoning why Vader should win here. Star Wars debating won't go strong if noone debates.

Ok I'll bite and I'm not saying Vader wins if Mace is added. First off I have no idea where the quote Ethan cited comes from. It could be a nothing source for all we know. The quote in question refers to the jedi so Vader is exempt from this quote. Because of some sources state Luke and Vader are equals, he applies this quote to Vader but we have no idea if this quote goes under the assumption that Luke and Vader are equals in ROTJ. For all we know it doesn't. What if it goes under the popular assumption that Luke defeated a conflicted and holding back Darth Vader, which is reflected in novels such as the Courtship of Princess Leia and maybe even Lucas's words himself, where he says Darth Vader is more powerful than Luke Skywalker in a rolling stones interview.

To me the quote seems to refer to the flashy choreography and acrobatics of the prequels rather than technical skill. And also what does it mean by power. What power did Qui Gon Jinn and Kenobi demonstrate against Maul that was so different and greater than anything the OT Jedi/Sith displayed? They can kick and do backflips? And again with this hype about the PT era Jedi. As far as I'm concerned it's all fake hype. Apart from the prominent characters, what exactly is so impressive about the PT era of Jedi? In the context of G-Canon all we ever see them do is fight droids and clones or get murked by them. And the "B-Team" get murked in seconds by Sidious. Now you could explain this by saying Sidious is the most powerful sith lord so of course he would be capable of accomplishing something like this. If this is the case than what was the point in all these accolades about them? Why does it matter if they are refined or powerful swordsmen when in the grand scheme just like Vader and Luke, they are all inferior to Sidious? If you look at feats/statements and take into account the 80% quote, its more likely for Vader to hold his own against Sidious longer than the B-Team who didn't even last a minute.

March 31st 2020, 5:41 pm

The lord of hunger wrote:finally someone need to say it good post latham

Thanks, I am not even from the Vader camp, but the Vader low balling is so ridiculous I felt like taking a moment to rep Vader for a moment.

March 31st 2020, 5:47 pm

The lord of hunger wrote:im just gonna repeat this :
“So whatever quote that favors Vader doesn't count because of that one time when George Lucas said he was an old man in robot suit. Great to know SW debating is still going strong”

Oi you stole my quote from my profile

March 31st 2020, 5:51 pm

First and foremost, we have this source saying that after Maul got cut in half by Kenobi in TPM, he was replaced by more Dooku and Vader, who were more powerful than him:

Lets see:

When Darth Sidious took on even more powerful disciples -- Darth Tyranus, then Tyranus's replacement, Darth Vader...

This source can in fact be used to definitively assert that Pre Suit Darth Vader was more powerful than TPM Maul. However thats all it can definitively tell us. The quote says the disciples that Sidious "took on" were more powerful than TPM Maul, ergo Vader and Tyranus were more powerful than Maul upon their induction into the order. Vader, however, has a massive drop off in power after he was maimed by Obi Wan during their battle on Mustafar. Due to this fact, Vader post Mustafar can no longer definitively claim to be more powerful than TPM Maul. Of course its possible that Suit Vader was in fact more powerful than Darth Maul, but the quote you provided doesn't shed light on the veracity of that claim. If you want to argue that, use something else.

Now what if you want to just hand-wave the analysis of what the quote actually tells us and just say that this quote refers to Vader wholesale, suit or no. Well that means you are saying that the quote Ethan provided is flat out wrong. This is what it boils down to. We can go with

A) Your personal interpretation of a source who's message is at best ambiguous, and at worst contrary to your argument, making a quote that explicitly states TPM Kenobi > Vader wrong because...reasons? or...

B) An interpretation of your source that doesn't contradict the source that Ethan provided; I.E The quote only referring to Pre Suit Darth Vader(though this is hardly the only quote that implies TPM Kenobi is>Vader)

Hmm...tough Call Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 2 1076326320

Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 2 1076326320

March 31st 2020, 5:52 pm

I know for a fact that was my quote

March 31st 2020, 6:18 pm

Latham2000 wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:im just gonna repeat this :
“So whatever quote that favors Vader doesn't count because of that one time when George Lucas said he was an old man in robot suit. Great to know SW debating is still going strong”

Oi you stole my quote from my profile

it represents this thread in a nutshell imao

March 31st 2020, 6:19 pm

Latham2000 wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:finally someone need to say it good post latham

Thanks, I am not even from the Vader camp, but the Vader low balling is so ridiculous I felt like taking a moment to rep Vader for a moment.

yep its quite ridiculous eager to know why they dont do the same with other versions of the character since they wank them beyond belief,but when someone does the same for suited version they all troll.

March 31st 2020, 7:32 pm

Even without Mace the B-Team is still a serious threat. Luke can match up with anyone of them one on one but in a group fight he'd probably go down either quickly or would last longer and eventually be worn out. Vader's fucked if he fights all three of them at the same time and even if Luke or Vader take out one of them before Luke falls any combination of the two of them would give Vader a close fight.

Honestly I feel like the B-Team could pull it off. If either Kolar and Tinn go down and Fisto dual wields they're in big trouble.