Ben Kenobi (ANH) vs Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM)

Latham2000 wrote:

BoD wrote:

 As I said yesterday:

@Latham2000 wrote:Maul wasn't trying to use his saberstaff hilt to block Vader's lightsaber. What happened is that Maul tried to kick Vader, but failed because Vader grabbed Maul's leg and pushed him back, leaving Maul's saberstaff vulnerable to being cut in half.

So you concede Maul was forced into a situation where Vader was able to outplay him and slice his staff in half.

Meaning what exactly? Yes Vader broke Maul's saberstaff in two separate blades but that's not an indication of ANH Vader having superior swordsmanship because all he did was damage Maul's weapon, meanwhile Maul landed more devastating strikes on Vader.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:man, i love when u guys forget the lack of mobility that vader had, while maul was extremely agile, and he could still hang with him lol that shows equal, if not superior swordsmanship- he made up for it with skill, since he lacked agility

"Impulse generators lacing the armor provided electrical impulses to stimulate Vader's muscles, providing him with great mobility and strength despite his severely damaged muscles and nerves." -- The New Essential Guide To Weapons And Technology.

Latham2000 wrote:

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:man, i love when u guys forget the lack of mobility that vader had, while maul was extremely agile, and he could still hang with him lol that shows equal, if not superior swordsmanship- he made up for it with skill, since he lacked agility

You're blowing Vader's limited mobility out of proportion:

"Impulse generators lacing the armor provided electrical impulses to stimulate Vader's muscles, providing him with great mobility and strength despite his severely damaged muscles and nerves." -- The New Essential Guide To Weapons And Technology.

Vader isn't as mobile as pre-suit Vader/Anakin, but he's still been described as having "great mobility," and you can't argue that Maul's feats of piercing Vader's guard was a result of superior agility because every single time Maul achieved those feats, he did that while directly facing and fighting Vader. If Maul achieved those feats while leaping around and performing acrobatics, you would be right, but he didn't, he was was standing in front of Vader and meeting him head to head while landing physical and lightsaber strikes, so you're just making excuses.

You're blowing Vader's limited mobility out of proportion:

"Impulse generators lacing the armor provided electrical impulses to stimulate Vader's muscles, providing him with great mobility and strength despite his severely damaged muscles and nerves." -- The New Essential Guide To Weapons And Technology.

Vader isn't as mobile as pre-suit Vader/Anakin, but he's still been described as having "great mobility," and you can't argue that Maul's feats of piercing Vader's guard was a result of superior agility because every single time Maul achieved those feats, he did that while directly facing and fighting Vader. If Maul achieved those feats while leaping around and performing acrobatics, you would be right, but he didn't, he was was standing in front of Vader and meeting him head to head while landing physical and lightsaber strikes, so you're just making excuses.

[url=https://servimg.com/view/20069174/434]

how am i blowing it out of proportion? was he not less agile? its a matter of yes or no. great mobility could be referring to speed as well, which is not wrong, as vader is not slow, but he is indeed very stiff when compared to maul

gotta say tho, im rereading this comic, and vader... doesnt seem like vader. the moment his troopers were killed he was like "show urself" which is... not in character to him at all. then, when they shit talk him, him getting mad wouldnt have been him arguing, it wouldve been him killing them on the spot lol

plus, the comic goes on to say that obi wan still influences vader, when we know for a fact that he hates not a single person more than he hates kenobi.

then there is vader fighting because they talk him into believing that sidious would be disappointed in him... when just 5 seconds ago it was confirmed that sidious didnt know about this incident whatsoever.

not to mention the fact that sidious wouldnt give a shit. vader killing all 4 of them with the force wouldve likely please him lol

they wanna imply that vader wears the mask cuz he has mental instability when we already know that thats not the reason for it lol this comic is wrong from head to toe.

the dark side priests (forgot their name) say that vader doenst have real hatred in him.. wtf IS this comic??

ive been counting how many strikes he gets in- he lands 1 backhand, 1 kick (both do literally absolutely nothing whatsoever)

but people in denial who cant count up to 4 will say that it makes no difference)

then vader gets tired of maul's shit talk, cuts his thing in half (it honestly looks he did it on purpose, without hitting maul of his own free will, but thats very arguable, tbh).

then somehow, maul's saber still works perfectly, when we have seen that it getting cut in half limits it to 1 blade only, so there's that.

he only gets a real advantage after this happens, btw

maul then gets a tinny ass cut on vader's mask, and that somehow downs vader.. like, literally, thats what happens, which makes no sense,

since after the battle is won, vader gets up completely fine and walks into the ship, so him being downed is likely him faking it.

he kills maul using trickery, meaning that not only did he make a fool of maul,

maul never actually had an advantage over him, as he fine at the end. GG

the comic https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Star-Wars-Tales/Issue-9?id=46454

BoD wrote:

You're blowing Vader's limited mobility out of proportion:

"Impulse generators lacing the armor provided electrical impulses to stimulate Vader's muscles, providing him with great mobility and strength despite his severely damaged muscles and nerves." -- The New Essential Guide To Weapons And Technology.

Vader isn't as mobile as pre-suit Vader/Anakin, but he's still been described as having "great mobility," and you can't argue that Maul's feats of piercing Vader's guard was a result of superior agility because every single time Maul achieved those feats, he did that while directly facing and fighting Vader. If Maul achieved those feats while leaping around and performing acrobatics, you would be right, but he didn't, he was was standing in front of Vader and meeting him head to head while landing physical and lightsaber strikes, so you're just making excuses.

You realise there are about a dozen other quotes noting his lack of mobility, correct?

And your claim he was "meeting him head to head" is utter conjecture:



I welcome you to point to a single instance in the fight where Maul didn't exploit his superior reach/weapon (catching Vader's lightsaber on one blade then attacking with the other or by pulling his blade aside when his lack of agility allows him to counter such a move like he would have as Anakin)

or using acrobatics/agility (drawing him to uneven ground, flipping over him, switching the terrain, or landing blows with acrobatics). He's literally using acrobatics throughout the fight.

I know there are, but Vader having limited mobility isn't mutually exclusive with his mobility being great, hence why I said it's being blown out of proportion.

 

 


limited
adjective

UK 

 /ˈlɪm.ɪ.tɪd/ US 

 /ˈlɪm.ɪ.t̬ɪd/

 
B1
small in amount or number:
[size=17]a limited choice
limited resources
 
B2
kept within a particular size, range, time, etc.:
Places on the bus are limited to 50 - so book early!
The problem of stress is certainly not limited to people who work (= it exists for others too).[/size]

It's not conjecture because Maul was standing on the ground in front of Vader when he landed those hits, Maul was never leaping around when he landed those hits, if he did, you would have a valid point, but he didn't do any of that.

involving or able to perform difficult and attractive body movements:
an acrobatic leap into the air
an acrobatic young dancer

involving a lot of skill and energy in controlling the movement of your body to do something difficult:
Karate is a very acrobatic martial art.

[url=https://servimg.com/view/20069174/446]

[url=https://servimg.com/view/20069174/446]

And bringing up Maul's weapon to downplay Maul's feats against Vader is an excuse because it's not merely the fact that Maul had a double bladed lightsaber, it's also the degree of his mastery of the double bladed lightsaber that enabled him to achieve these feats.

 (catching Vader's lightsaber on one blade then attacking with the other or by pulling his blade aside when his lack of agility allows him to counter such a move like he would have as Anakin)

He didn't use acrobatics/agility in the entire fight, he did at some points, but he clearly didn't in the instances when he landed physical and lightsaber strikes on Vader, that's the point I was making.

He was directly facing and fighting Vader when he achieved those feats.

Meatpants wrote:Jinn sabers, Ben Force.

limited
[size=14]adjective

UK 

 /ˈlɪm.ɪ.tɪd/ US 

 /ˈlɪm.ɪ.t̬ɪd/

 B1
small  in amount  or number :
[size=17]a limited choice
limited resources
 
B2
kept  within a particular  size , range , time , etc.:
Places on the bus  are limited to 50 - so book  early!
The problem  of stress  is certainly  not limited to people  who work  (= it exists  for others  too).[/size]

If you're limited in a regard, you're a lot less capable of something.
[/size]

"Destroyer of the Jedi Order, the Emperor's personal enforcer, Darth Vader, had overcome the physical restrictions from the injuries he had received in his duel with Obi-Wan Kenobi, and from the bulky armor he had to wear to stay alive." -- The Official Starships And Vehicles Collection 8.

You do understand that agility doesn't necessarily mean flips, right?

involving  or able  to perform  difficult  and attractive  body  movements :
an acrobatic leap  into the air
an acrobatic young  dancer

-

involving  a lot of skill  and energy  in controlling  the movement  of your  body  to do something difficult :
Karate is a very acrobatic martial  art .

A roundhouse kick like the one shown below:



Is an example of an acrobatic technique, as it's a difficult movement that requires considerable coordination.

"In a lightsaber duel, confidence is always a good thing. But when confidence turns to arrogance, the duelist can easily throw away what seems to be a certain victory. Sith Lord Darth Maul was so sure of his skills that he believed he could defeat two Jedi at once. When Maul battled Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi at the same time on Naboo, at first he seemed right. Thanks to his mastery of martial arts and his deadly saberstaff, Darth Maul was a fearsome opponent for the Jedi." — Star Wars Jedi Battles (2013).

He also uses your definition of acrobatics as "leaping around" when avoiding many of Vader's attacks or pushing him back:

[url=https://servimg.com/view/20069174/446] [/url]

...Or when drawing Vader towards terrain that benefited Maul:

[url=https://servimg.com/view/20069174/446] [/url]

So yes, agility and acrobatics were a massive reason for his advantage over ANH Vader. Next.

Did you bother reading what I said right after that?

(catching Vader's lightsaber on one blade then attacking with the other or by pulling his blade aside when his lack of agility allows him to counter such a move like he would have as Anakin)   

Vader was automatically at a disadvantage due to his limited agility and choice of weapon, yet still did admirably well despite Maul controlling the terrain and determining where the fight was to be continue.

Vader is no longer agile enough to avoid a second blade like he could as Anakin, lol. The fight even directly proves that.

Which is not true.

You can directly face and fight someone and still employ acrobatics. That's literally what Juyo does.

"While its attacks can eviscerate defences - even the blocks of a Form III master - Form VII leaves its practitioner vulnerable and open to counterattack. Multiple opponents can overwhelm a Juyo master by exploiting a moment's vulnerability. Force pushes and shoves are also effective at rattling a Form VII defense." -- The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force.

"Djem So follows the same philosophy of turning an enemy's attack back on him or her, it is optimized for lightsaber to lightsaber combat. It's signature move is the fluid riposte, which deflects a forceful enemy attack and immediately counter attacks. The emphasis of Djem So remains strength, with violent blows - such as the Falling Avalanche, or overhand blow to shatter armour - that can penetrate any defense." -- The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force.

"Galen knew the intimacies of Vader's refined version of Djem So, a fighting style that incorporated elements of Ataru, Soresu, and Makashi. He had fended off many wild, slashing attacks that would have overwhelmed even an extraordinary Jedi Knight." -- The Force Unleashed Novel.

Something Maul is very proficient in:
 

Not all acrobatics are "I'm going to flip around the room so I look like a beyblade". Maul is a perfect case of this, employing acrobatics into his fighting style in close quarters to best make use of his agility and mobility, which he literally does against Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, and Vader. Vader is less agile and mobile than the others, which is what makes it more effective, especially in the terrain the majority of their fight took place on.

Meatpants wrote:You are aware Maul has a dozen quotes about his ability and acrobatics right?

@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:1) him kicking, twisting his body around, turning quickly, and what not else are not only examples of superior agility, but also examples of when maul lands a hit.

"To Darth Maul, it seemed that his master had always been there, a part of his life — implacable, indomitable, inexorable. Since before Maul learned to walk, discipline had been his guiding beacon. Darth Sidious had moulded him from a weak, puling child into the ultimate warrior, sculpting his body and his mind as a seamless weapon. Maul was willing to die for him, without question and without hesitation. Lord Sidious’s goals were the goals of the Sith, and they would be achieved, no matter what the cost.

Maul’s entire existence had consisted of training, of exercise and instruction. Early in his life, before his voice had deepened, Maul had learned the intricate movements and forms of the teräs käsi fighting style, the patterns of movements based on the hunting characteristics of various beasts throughout the galaxy: Charging Wampa, Rancor Rising, Dancing Dragon-snake, and many more. He had practiced gymnastics in environments ranging from zero-g to gravity fields twice that of Coruscant’s. He had mastered the intricate and dangerous use of the double-bladed lightsaber. And all for one purpose: to be the best possible tool of his master’s will.

But he had not learned just how to fight. His master’s teaching had encompassed far more than that. He had also learned stealth, subterfuge, intrigue. What is done in secret has great power." -- Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter.

"In a lightsaber duel, confidence is always a good thing. But when confidence turns to arrogance, the duelist can easily throw away what seems to be a certain victory. Sith Lord Darth Maul was so sure of his skills that he believed he could defeat two Jedi at once. When Maul battled Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi at the same time on Naboo, at first he seemed right. Thanks to his mastery of martial arts and his deadly saberstaff, Darth Maul was a fearsome opponent for the Jedi." — Star Wars Jedi Battles (2013).

2) he does do that either, he just assumes it was fake, they confirm it, and thats about it. any writer for vader wouldve made him choke the 3 out the moment they said that shit lol

3) say, what would obi wan training him have done aside from influence him, in that context?

4) idk wtf u just said here, ngl. u asked for when they said that sheev didnt know, or when they said that he wouldnt look good in sheev's eyes?

5) vader cant do it, even though the priest imply that he can WHILE THEY ARE UNDERESTIMATING HIM, and after it was confirmed that he couldve done so in that fucking tweet? nice.

6) no shit its taunting lol im not bringing these things up to say the comic is invalid, im just complaining at how lacks realism when compared to the lore itself.

7) ...yes thats exactly what i am doing. how did u figure that one out? mustve taken u some time there, considering how indirect i was when talking about the wrongs the comic presents us with.

8) did either the punch or kick make vader fall? feel lightheaded? did they hurt him? made him stop the fight to recover? if it not, and vader just kept fighting like nothing happened, then sorry to say, but they did nothing to him lol i didnt think i omitted it, since i talked about it in the next part, regarding maul having the superior weapon and everything, but u didnt understand what i was trying to say, so it doesnt matter lol

9) thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard. If u say that maul was winning, then he had no reason to let it be cut in half. and if u look at him when fighting kenobi in TPM, he gets irritated when kenobi cuts it. this was clearly all vader, and no maul. had vader extended his arm 4 more inches, he wouldve cut part of maul's face in half. he was clearly showing superiority, as he is, in fact, hella cocky.

10) im pretty sure it was cut in half. https://2.bp.blogspot.com/dAreWFymagvn2jxkbPPmD9_MOBtg2CLkIgJTNV4va1kG7-_u7jHS3CS7-PvBKhYyhMrmcaQjXv97=s1600 it has the same coloring as when vader is cut, and it shows maul looking at it lol he didnt split shit, vader cut it on purpose. my point is that it being cut in half breaks it, and limits it to 1 blade, but conveniently enough, it doesnt happen here.

11) its not his thigh, but more his abdomen, and screams his head off? the same guy who was shit talking obi wan after he got his limbs cut off, and his body burned all over the place? seems legit. it seems to me that im not the one who needs to read this comic more thoroughly.

12) "No, he punched Vader in the face twice, disarming him and knocking him down in the process, which was due to the force of Maul's punches. There's nothing stupid about this:" this literally doenst happen. he gave him a cut to the helmet. why would there be sparks if its not a cut? the same ones shown when mauls saber is cut in half, and when vader is cut in the abdomen? if maul couldve downed vader with a punch, he wouldve splattered jinn's face in when he butted him in the head with his saber lmao

13) he recovered, but somehow still had burns marks? its one or the other. if u read the comic, none of the wounds actually hinder him in the long run. they impair him for 5 seconds, at best. even the cut, which downs him, is completely ignored at the end of the comic. same for the head injury.

14) i could if u wanted me to. he did seem to blitz maul after all. might make a blog on this, in ur honor. back to the topic, vader stabbed himself like it was nothing (yet again, the end of the comic shows that its nothing to be worried about), but u wanna tell me that maul's punch couldve downed him like that? Maul's punch > saber strike confirmed.

15) more like he gets overwhelmed by the two blades that he has to deal with, gets hit by a punch, then slashed in the head right after, which makes him let his saber go. he falls down for like, 7 seconds, maul starts his slash, vader pulls his saber in, casually stabs himself, kills maul, gets up, and pretends it never happened. vader was never in actual danger in this fight tbh 
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-MIVXLFdf-xIyRDKVqhWi9nnnMzEHVjP2dEKysb0St-eIYDkXFuKa94lmpjM4RW3YrL-hEbruI3S=s1600 look at him talking to the priests. it makes him out to be the clear victor, no matter how u look at it. he treats his wounds like nothing

Latham2000 wrote:Just a word of advice, if you're going to respond to someone in a debate, please improve your rhetoic and grammar so that it's easier to read:

Im sorry about that. I type too quickly, and never double check anything lol

@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:1) him kicking, twisting his body around, turning quickly, and what not else are not only examples of superior agility, but also examples of when maul lands a hit.

Not really, Maul's feat of staggering Vader with a kick and his other physical strikes are actually an example of Maul's superiority in the art of martial arts which we know is incorporated in his skill set because Maul put a lot of time and effort into learning and achieving mastery of his martial arts:

"To Darth Maul, it seemed that his master had always been there, a part of his life — implacable, indomitable, inexorable. Since before Maul learned to walk, discipline had been his guiding beacon. Darth Sidious had moulded him from a weak, puling child into the ultimate warrior, sculpting his body and his mind as a seamless weapon. Maul was willing to die for him, without question and without hesitation. Lord Sidious’s goals were the goals of the Sith, and they would be achieved, no matter what the cost.

Maul’s entire existence had consisted of training, of exercise and instruction. Early in his life, before his voice had deepened, Maul had learned the intricate movements and forms of the teräs käsi fighting style, the patterns of movements based on the hunting characteristics of various beasts throughout the galaxy: Charging Wampa, Rancor Rising, Dancing Dragon-snake, and many more. He had practiced gymnastics in environments ranging from zero-g to gravity fields twice that of Coruscant’s. He had mastered the intricate and dangerous use of the double-bladed lightsaber. And all for one purpose: to be the best possible tool of his master’s will.

But he had not learned just how to fight. His master’s teaching had encompassed far more than that. He had also learned stealth, subterfuge, intrigue. What is done in secret has great power." -- Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter.

Vader has fodderized people like Aurra Sing before, more than 20 years before his prime (double point here- he fodderize people who can give Jinn real trouble, AND his martial arts skill are high enough to match Maul's). Maul is more skilled than her, of course but my point is- like i said, this comic is not accurate whatsoever, imo. Maul shouldnt be capable of staggering Vader with his punches, EVER. Actually, Vader shouldve blitzed (moving too fast for inquisitors, jedi, and Sing to deal with is just plain 20 years pre prime is just too much for Maul to deal with when facing an even stronger Vader. Goes to show that the tweet saying that Maul mightve been amped is more believable now) and disarmed him the moment their sabers made contact (looking at Galen Marek here), but out of pure PIS, it didnt happen.

He used these martial arts in conjunction with his skill with the double bladed lightsaber against Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi in The Phantom Menace:

"In a lightsaber duel, confidence is always a good thing. But when confidence turns to arrogance, the duelist can easily throw away what seems to be a certain victory. Sith Lord Darth Maul was so sure of his skills that he believed he could defeat two Jedi at once. When Maul battled Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi at the same time on Naboo, at first he seemed right. Thanks to his mastery of martial arts and his deadly saberstaff, Darth Maul was a fearsome opponent for the Jedi." — Star Wars Jedi Battles (2013).

I kinda answered this up above.

Next point:

2) he does do that either, he just assumes it was fake, they confirm it, and thats about it. any writer for vader wouldve made him choke the 3 out the moment they said that shit lol

How do you know that any writer would've decided that Vader would try Force choking all of them? Why is so hard to believe that Vader would rather kill them with a lightsaber than simply Force choking all 3 of them at the same time? How do you know he can Force choke all 3 of them at the same time? How do you know that they wouldn't have tried to defend themselves? This entire point is an arbitrary nitpicking. 

Because Vader's mojo is force choking people? His friends, little children, subordinates, superiors, apprentices, masters, peers, etc, none of that comes to mind? Like, can u not relate to the idea that Vader wouldve gone for the kill against them the moment he noticed they were doubting his whole being? It doesnt matter how he does it, my point is that he wouldve simply killed them. They couldve tried to defend themselves all they wanted, they wouldve died regardless. Yes, its nitpicking, wtf do u think ive been doing this whole time??

3) say, what would obi wan training him have done aside from influence him, in that context?

Nothing, but the Dark Side prophets didn't like the fact that Vader was trained by the guy who cut Maul in half, that's just their own personal bias that they have against Vader, and they were also uncomfortable with the fact that Vader used to be Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker before he became a Sith, Dark Siders tend to have this "Sith are way better than Jedi" superiority complex, and they wanted Maul, a Sith Lord who has always been a Sith fuelled with hatred as far as they are concerned, to be the Emperor's apprentice, rather than Vader who used to serve the Jedi Order.

More nitpicking- they conveniently forgot how Vader has the highest Jedi kill count, which Makes look like trash? How Vader fights and kill jedis every Monday morning for the last 19 years? How he diligently completely  mastered the dark side of the force, and how he obeys his master's every command? How his master favors him above all other contestants for his title? How Sidious had 19 years to pick another option, or find a way to bring Dooku or Maul back, just like they did, but chose not to? How Sidious trusted him more than anybody else? How Sidious gave/told/taught him almost everything he knew, and didnt even expected relation some of those times, because he trusted Vader that much? Im honestly surprised that Sidious wasnt more offended by it tbh, since they kinda did everything that he decided not to do lol

4) idk wtf u just said here, ngl. u asked for when they said that sheev didnt know, or when they said that he wouldnt look good in sheev's eyes?

What? I honestly don't know what point you're trying to make here.

Forget it. U just repeated what i said, but in different words lol

5) vader cant do it, even though the priest imply that he can WHILE THEY ARE UNDERESTIMATING HIM, and after it was confirmed that he couldve done so in that fucking tweet? nice.

We don't know whether Vader can actually do it, and the Dark Side prophets only said that Vader might succeed in trying to destroy in all 3 of them, meaning that it's an uncertain possibility. Ron Marz didn't confirm that Vader could've done it in his tweets, he said that it was hypothetical, meaning that it's speculation. We can't treat speculation like they're facts.

So lets me recap real quick:

The Prophets think that said possibility is there WHILE THEY ARE STILL UNDERESTIMATING HIM, and even now, when a tweet more or less confirms that this idea is also a very likely possibility, u still doubt it? Astounding.

Into simpler terms- Vader (while being underestimated) ~ Prophets + Maul (likely stronger than his TPM self), but somehow, there is no way around Vader being weaker than Maul? Cool beans.

6) no shit its taunting lol im not bringing these things up to say the comic is invalid, im just complaining at how lacks realism when compared to the lore itself.

So the comic is unrealistic because Vader and the Dark Side prophets have an argument and taunt Vader?

Love to see the omitting of every other thing i talked about that led me to this idea. Nice.

7) ...yes thats exactly what i am doing. how did u figure that one out? mustve taken u some time there, considering how indirect i was when talking about the wrongs the comic presents us with.

The "wrongs the comic presents us with" that you're complaining about are the Dark Side prophets having inaccurate judgements of Vader's committment to the Dark Side of the Force, so your entire point was already moot and pointless to bring up in the first place because you've admitted that the Dark Side prophets were proven wrong by Vader. 

The Prophets speak what the author/writer wants them to speak. Im a firm believer in Author's intent (idk if u know what that is, but simply put, the author conveys ideas, concepts, facts, actions, etc through his story by using characters, lore, books in the story itself, and what not else), hence my belief that the author may have implied those things in his story, and not that the Prophesy just spouted nonsense.

8) did either the punch or kick make vader fall? feel lightheaded? did they hurt him? made him stop the fight to recover? if it not, and vader just kept fighting like nothing happened, then sorry to say, but they did nothing to him lol i didnt think i omitted it, since i talked about it in the next part, regarding maul having the superior weapon and everything, but u didnt understand what i was trying to say, so it doesnt matter lol

Stop babbling, we clearly saw that Maul's kick threw Vader off balance, which did do something to him. If someone kicks me with enough force to throw me off balance, it has clearly done something to me i.e. staggered me. Maul's punches did do something to Vader, they made him grunt/scream in pain, ergo they did something to him i.e. inflicting pain. The fact that Vader continued fighting after recieving those hits doesn't invalidate that these hits did something to him for a short period of time. The weapon that Maul is not circumstantial because the double bladed lightsaber is Maul's signature weapon that is one of the reasons why Maul is such an iconic character in the SW mythos. It's also the weapon that Maul practises with in his combat training nearly single day, if not every single day, for the latter 5 years of his Banite Sith training under Sidious leading up to The Phantom Menace. What Maul achieved with the use of his double bladed lightsaber i.e. competing with Vader and piercing his lightsaber guard, is a demonstration of the magnitude of Maul's mastery of the double bladed lightsaber. It's not Vader sucks when fighting someone who wields a double bladed lightsaber, that would just be silly attempt Vader low balling - it's that Maul was that good with his double bladed lightsaber.

I asked u if any of those happened to Vader, and u didnt answer any of them. Nice to see that i made my point clear. Lol grunt is an equivalent of scream now? Lmao. The one hit that did something was his abdomen cut, iirc. The others were Vader just plain old grunting (not screaming).

It doesnt matter if its his signature weapon or not. My point is that it was superior to Vader's, period. He could literally not have landed that cut without it. Vader wouldve just blocked, like he did to all other attacks like we see him do. I never said Vader sucked at fighting against it, i said it was superior as a tool. And i never said Maul wasnt good, he's above like, 98 and half percent of the verse in skill when talking about fighting. But is he above Vader? Not to me, when we see him use things to gain an advantage throughout the whole fight which Vader cannot match (he uses agility to twist around, and a double bladed saber to land the first real hit on Vader; the second time, he now has a blade in each hand, which makes it even worse, while he retains said agility).

9) thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard. If u say that maul was winning, then he had no reason to let it be cut in half. and if u look at him when fighting kenobi in TPM, he gets irritated when kenobi cuts it. this was clearly all vader, and no maul. had vader extended his arm 4 more inches, he wouldve cut part of maul's face in half. he was clearly showing superiority, as he is, in fact, hella cocky.

I said that Maul was winning the lightsaber duel because he repeatedly landed physical strikes and even a lightsaber slash on Vader, whereas all what Vader managed to achieve is breaking Maul's saberstaff, is evidence that Vader was showcasing superiority is nothing short of ridiculous. And the notion that Vader could've slashed Maul's face, but didn't, and chose to slash Maul's saberstaff instead, despite the fact that Vader clearly expressed the intent to kill Maul, is even more ridiculous. And even when Maul's saberstaff got split in two blades, Maul recovered from this setback and used Jar Kai to knock Vader down and disarm him of his lightsaber.

He landed a punch and a kick that did no real damage (u kinda have to prove it did, my man, cuz nothing in the comics portrays this). Then he lands a cut, which somehow makes Vader feel pain and actually affects him, even though we later see that it didnt hit his organic parts (cough nitpick cough). He then gets his blade cut in half, lands a punch that does nothing (he lands the punch and goes straight for his second attack, so u cant even prove that it actually did something), and then swipes at Vader's helmet (as shown by the sparks and swing of Maul's arm, unless u would like to argue that Maul punching his helmet wouldve caused sparks exactly like those created by a light saber?), and Vader falls down. Vader takes his time, waits for Maul to start his swing, pulls his saber in, stabs himself and Maul, gets up like it never happened, threatens to kill the 3 stooges, meets Sheev, walks into the ship, and boom, story is over. He treated the fight like it was nothing.

Now, do u really think that Vader wouldnt want to show superiority by landing a non killing blow? The most cocky motherfucker on the verse couldnt have possibly done that, could he? Trash talking the whole Galaxy, and u wanna tell me that he wouldnt want to show superiority to someone who is supposed to be his superior? Proving that Maul couldve been killed in that moment, but didnt out of Vader's own wishes wouldve been a sort of perfect opportunity to show superiority, no? I mean, Vader was wrong, as his sabers still worked, but had it worked, who wouldve come out top with the better reputation? Making the prophets shit themselves?

10) im pretty sure it was cut in half. https://2.bp.blogspot.com/dAreWFymagvn2jxkbPPmD9_MOBtg2CLkIgJTNV4va1kG7-_u7jHS3CS7-PvBKhYyhMrmcaQjXv97=s1600 it has the same coloring as when vader is cut, and it shows maul looking at it lol he didnt split shit, vader cut it on purpose. my point is that it being cut in half breaks it, and limits it to 1 blade, but conveniently enough, it doesnt happen here.

Yes Maul's saberstaff got cut in half, but Maul still retained two blades. The same thing happened when Kenobi broke Maul's saberstaff in TPM:



If you pay attention you see that when Maul's saberstaff gets cut in half, they become separate blades, one of the blades falls out of Maul's hand and lands in that container thing (I don't know what it's called so that's what I'm going to call it), whereas Maul is still holding onto 1 blade. The Phantom Menace Comic Book adaptation shows it more clearly if you're not paying attention to detail:



I really cant it in the gif, which is what my main focus is on, tbh. The comic is less canon

11) its not his thigh, but more his abdomen, and screams his head off? the same guy who was shit talking obi wan after he got his limbs cut off, and his body burned all over the place? seems legit. it seems to me that im not the one who needs to read this comic more thoroughly.

Hmm, you seem to be about the abdomen part, I'll concede that Maul slashed his abdomen rather than thigh, good observation. However, you can't argue against the fact that Vader sceamed his head off when Maul slashed his thigh because it's literally shown on the comic panel, so yes it is legit and the fact that Vader was willing to taunt Obi-Wan, the guy who cut Vader's limbs off and left him to burn on Mustafar doesn't invalidate what Maul did to Vader, you're committing a red herring.

I addressed the ignorance of the thigh cut above (it not actually being part of his body in the first place, so why would he have felt pain?), but i dont remember him screaming at all. I remember him grunting of course, or saying an "Ah!" or something.

Now, let me get this: U agree that Vader taunted Kenobi, but dont believe that he cut Maul's blade in half without hitting him on prupose? Even though he believes Kenobi to have been the far greater threat, WHILE he actually had something to prove when fighting Maul? Im not too sure here, but i think u shot urself in the foot.

12) "No, he punched Vader in the face twice, disarming him and knocking him down in the process, which was due to the force of Maul's punches. There's nothing stupid about this:" this literally doenst happen. he gave him a cut to the helmet. why would there be sparks if its not a cut? the same ones shown when mauls saber is cut in half, and when vader is cut in the abdomen? if maul couldve downed vader with a punch, he wouldve splattered jinn's face in when he butted him in the head with his saber lmao

It does happen, for some reason you're only paying attention to the fact that Vader's helmet got scratched by Maul's punches. Maul punched Vader in the helmet twice, and his helmet had that scratch for that reason. Bringing up the fact that Qui-Gon's face didn't get scratched when Maul only slammed his hilt in Qui-Gon's face once, whereas Maul hit Vader's helmet twice. Moreover, in the second punch that Maul delivers to Vader's helmet, it's possible that he was using his metal hilt to dent Vader's helmet:



Vader's helmet, just like Maul's, is made out of some kind of solid metal, the impact of Maul slamming his hilt on Vader's helmet caused some friction that dented Vader's helmet. I don't understand why you find this so hard to believe.

I never ignored the first punch, i just dont believe that the second attack was anything other than a saber strike. It makes sense to me. The same sparks, the same effects, the same color- seems like a saber strike to me. 

More nitpicking- Vader's helmet is, iirc, lightsaber resistant, so yet again, another inaccuracy in the comic, as no matter what Maul did to his helmet, it wouldve never actually damaged it. This is just me being pissed off by the lack of study these authors/writers put into this stuff, so u dont have to answer to this if u dont want to.

13) he recovered, but somehow still had burns marks? its one or the other. if u read the comic, none of the wounds actually hinder him in the long run. they impair him for 5 seconds, at best. even the cut, which downs him, is completely ignored at the end of the comic. same for the head injury.

When I said recover, I meant that he got back up on his feet afterwards, but the burn marks were still on his suit. Vader's suit still had burn marks, but these burn marks weren't severe enough to prevent him from getting up and walking.

See, thats almost exactly what i was getting at. He felt pain from the first saber strike, but at the end of the comic, all we see is his damaged suit, while, before that, the same strike somehow downed Vader, and yet, Vader got up, fought the rest of the time, seemed to completely forget the injury, and boom, story was over. More or less the same of the helmet, and the self stab. Did they do something, or did they not? like, fucking choose lol wtf.

14) i could if u wanted me to. he did seem to blitz maul after all. might make a blog on this, in ur honor. back to the topic, vader stabbed himself like it was nothing (yet again, the end of the comic shows that its nothing to be worried about), but u wanna tell me that maul's punch couldve downed him like that? Maul's punch > saber strike confirmed.

It was a rhetorical question, of course TPM Kenobi isn't better than TPM Maul, he beat TPM Maul because Maul was too lazy to deliver the killing blow and decided to gloat - Maul's own arrogance sabotaged his chance of finishing off Kenobi. Vader stabbed himself because his body is more prosthetic than flesh, as Star Wars Insider states: "Vader, more machine than man, drives his lightsaber through his own gut in order to impale the Dark Lord behind him" --> Vader did beat Maul, but via superior durability, not by his combat skill. Maul was also gloating when he brought Vader down to his knees, all that proves is that Maul has a tendency of succumbing to CIS, judging combatants based on their CIS is fallacious.

Twas a joke, me mate. Vader stabbed himself the gut, iirc. He is not a machine there. He only lost his legs and arms, and yet, he could stab himself like it was nothing, but grunted from punches and kicks to his super durable helmet?? HMMMMMMMM

15) more like he gets overwhelmed by the two blades that he has to deal with, gets hit by a punch, then slashed in the head right after, which makes him let his saber go. he falls down for like, 7 seconds, maul starts his slash, vader pulls his saber in, casually stabs himself, kills maul, gets up, and pretends it never happened. vader was never in actual danger in this fight tbh 
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-MIVXLFdf-xIyRDKVqhWi9nnnMzEHVjP2dEKysb0St-eIYDkXFuKa94lmpjM4RW3YrL-hEbruI3S=s1600 look at him talking to the priests. it makes him out to be the clear victor, no matter how u look at it. he treats his wounds like nothing

Already addressed how Maul knocked Vader down. Vader was definitely in a lot of actual danger in that fight, Maul inflicted some harm to his suit that made Vader feel so concerned that he visibly checks it out:



^ I really hope you look at the first panel of this page because I don't want to have to spell everything out for you. Vader nearly died, he had to resort to stabbing himself to stab a gloating Darth Maul, and even when this happened, his suit was evidently damaged enough that it would require repairs afterwards, and he has the resources from the Galactic Empire to do that for him.

Im quite sure he only stopped here to check on his control panel, which is what actually matters.

As for that stab, i already talked about its ignorance- the stab wound is far worse than any other attack he received beforehand, so why did he get affected by them in the first place? This is one of the main reasons why i criticize this comic.

And the Galactic Empire part: he made entire ships, robots, and weapons out of literal trash. I dont think he needs the empire much for anything else other than intel gathering, tbh lmao

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:Vader has fodderized people like Aurra Sing before, more than 20 years before his prime (double point here- he fodderize people who can give Jinn real trouble, AND his martial arts skill are high enough to match Maul's). Maul is more skilled than her, of course but my point is- like i said, this comic is not accurate whatsoever, imo. Maul shouldnt be capable of staggering Vader with his punches, EVER. Actually, Vader shouldve blitzed (moving too fast for inquisitors, jedi, and Sing to deal with is just plain 20 years pre prime is just too much for Maul to deal with when facing an even stronger Vader. Goes to show that the tweet saying that Maul mightve been amped is more believable now) and disarmed him the moment their sabers made contact (looking at Galen Marek here), but out of pure PIS, it didnt happen.

I kinda answered this up above.

Because Vader's mojo is force choking people? His friends, little children, subordinates, superiors, apprentices, masters, peers, etc, none of that comes to mind? Like, can u not relate to the idea that Vader wouldve gone for the kill against them the moment he noticed they were doubting his whole being? It doesnt matter how he does it, my point is that he wouldve simply killed them. They couldve tried to defend themselves all they wanted, they wouldve died regardless. Yes, its nitpicking, wtf do u think ive been doing this whole time??

More nitpicking- they conveniently forgot how Vader has the highest Jedi kill count, which Makes look like trash? How Vader fights and kill jedis every Monday morning for the last 19 years? How he diligently completely  mastered the dark side of the force, and how he obeys his master's every command? How his master favors him above all other contestants for his title? How Sidious had 19 years to pick another option, or find a way to bring Dooku or Maul back, just like they did, but chose not to? How Sidious trusted him more than anybody else? How Sidious gave/told/taught him almost everything he knew, and didnt even expected relation some of those times, because he trusted Vader that much? Im honestly surprised that Sidious wasnt more offended by it tbh, since they kinda did everything that he decided not to do lol

Forget it. U just repeated what i said, but in different words lol

So lets me recap real quick:

The Prophets think that said possibility is there WHILE THEY ARE STILL UNDERESTIMATING HIM, and even now, when a tweet more or less confirms that this idea is also a very likely possibility, u still doubt it? Astounding.

Into simpler terms- Vader (while being underestimated) ~ Prophets + Maul (likely stronger than his TPM self), but somehow, there is no way around Vader being weaker than Maul? Cool beans.

Love to see the omitting of every other thing i talked about that led me to this idea. Nice.

The Prophets speak what the author/writer wants them to speak. Im a firm believer in Author's intent (idk if u know what that is, but simply put, the author conveys ideas, concepts, facts, actions, etc through his story by using characters, lore, books in the story itself, and what not else), hence my belief that the author may have implied those things in his story, and not that the Prophesy just spouted nonsense.

I asked u if any of those happened to Vader, and u didnt answer any of them. Nice to see that i made my point clear. Lol grunt is an equivalent of scream now? Lmao. The one hit that did something was his abdomen cut, iirc. The others were Vader just plain old grunting (not screaming).

It doesnt matter if its his signature weapon or not. My point is that it was superior to Vader's, period. He could literally not have landed that cut without it. Vader wouldve just blocked, like he did to all other attacks like we see him do. I never said Vader sucked at fighting against it, i said it was superior as a tool. And i never said Maul wasnt good, he's above like, 98 and half percent of the verse in skill when talking about fighting. But is he above Vader? Not to me, when we see him use things to gain an advantage throughout the whole fight which Vader cannot match (he uses agility to twist around, and a double bladed saber to land the first real hit on Vader; the second time, he now has a blade in each hand, which makes it even worse, while he retains said agility).

"In combat, your mind tries to keep track of each blade separately, effectively doubling the number of possibilities. But the two blades are connected: by knowing the location of one, you are automatically aware of the location of the other. In actual practice, the double-bladed lightsaber is more limited than the traditional lightsaber. It can do more damage, but it is less precise. It requires longer, sweeping movements that don't transition well into a quick stab or thrust. Because the weapon is difficult to master, however, few among the Jedi – or even the Sith – understand it. They don't know how to attack or defend effectively against it. That gives those of us who use it an advantage over most of our opponents." -- Path of Destruction.

He landed a punch and a kick that did no real damage (u kinda have to prove it did, my man, cuz nothing in the comics portrays this). Then he lands a cut, which somehow makes Vader feel pain and actually affects him, even though we later see that it didnt hit his organic parts (cough nitpick cough). He then gets his blade cut in half, lands a punch that does nothing (he lands the punch and goes straight for his second attack, so u cant even prove that it actually did something), and then swipes at Vader's helmet (as shown by the sparks and swing of Maul's arm, unless u would like to argue that Maul punching his helmet wouldve caused sparks exactly like those created by a light saber?), and Vader falls down. Vader takes his time, waits for Maul to start his swing, pulls his saber in, stabs himself and Maul, gets up like it never happened, threatens to kill the 3 stooges, meets Sheev, walks into the ship, and boom, story is over. He treated the fight like it was nothing.

Now, do u really think that Vader wouldnt want to show superiority by landing a non killing blow? The most cocky motherfucker on the verse couldnt have possibly done that, could he? Trash talking the whole Galaxy, and u wanna tell me that he wouldnt want to show superiority to someone who is supposed to be his superior? Proving that Maul couldve been killed in that moment, but didnt out of Vader's own wishes wouldve been a sort of perfect opportunity to show superiority, no? I mean, Vader was wrong, as his sabers still worked, but had it worked, who wouldve come out top with the better reputation? Making the prophets shit themselves?

I really cant it in the gif, which is what my main focus is on, tbh. The comic is less canon

I addressed the ignorance of the thigh cut above (it not actually being part of his body in the first place, so why would he have felt pain?), but i dont remember him screaming at all. I remember him grunting of course, or saying an "Ah!" or something.

Now, let me get this: U agree that Vader taunted Kenobi, but dont believe that he cut Maul's blade in half without hitting him on prupose? Even though he believes Kenobi to have been the far greater threat, WHILE he actually had something to prove when fighting Maul? Im not too sure here, but i think u shot urself in the foot.

I never ignored the first punch, i just dont believe that the second attack was anything other than a saber strike. It makes sense to me. The same sparks, the same effects, the same color- seems like a saber strike to me.

More nitpicking- Vader's helmet is, iirc, lightsaber resistant, so yet again, another inaccuracy in the comic, as no matter what Maul did to his helmet, it wouldve never actually damaged it. This is just me being pissed off by the lack of study these authors/writers put into this stuff, so u dont have to answer to this if u dont want to. 

See, thats almost exactly what i was getting at. He felt pain from the first saber strike, but at the end of the comic, all we see is his damaged suit, while, before that, the same strike somehow downed Vader, and yet, Vader got up, fought the rest of the time, seemed to completely forget the injury, and boom, story was over. More or less the same of the helmet, and the self stab. Did they do something, or did they not? like, fucking choose lol wtf.

Twas a joke, me mate. Vader stabbed himself the gut, iirc. He is not a machine there. He only lost his legs and arms, and yet, he could stab himself like it was nothing, but grunted from punches and kicks to his super durable helmet?? HMMMMMMMM

"But Anakin had turned to the dark side, and despair and pain strengthened the dark side. It gave him an advantage Obi-Wan could not match." -- Revenge of the Sith Junior Novel.

Im quite sure he only stopped here to check on his control panel, which is what actually matters.

As for that stab, i already talked about its ignorance- the stab wound is far worse than any other attack he received beforehand, so why did he get affected by them in the first place? This is one of the main reasons why i criticize this comic.

And the Galactic Empire part: he made entire ships, robots, and weapons out of literal trash. I dont think he needs the empire much for anything else other than intel gathering, tbh lmao