Qui gon Jinn and TPM Kenobi vs Ben Kenobi and ESB Luke

March 8th 2020, 3:32 pm

Standard rules

March 8th 2020, 3:49 pm

Ben takes Jinn.

Luke takes Kenobi.

March 8th 2020, 3:58 pm

NotAA3 wrote:Ben takes Jinn.

Luke takes Kenobi.

March 8th 2020, 4:20 pm

Kenobi vs Luke is like comparing a GED freshman to a university grad student.

Jinn is the more sharper, spry, and fit of the two geezers.

TPM Kenobi is much closer to his peak than Ben Kenobi.

Jinn's experience is more invaluable than Luke's youth. He'll pick him apart technically just as he did to Xanatos.

PT duo walks all over OT team.

March 8th 2020, 4:33 pm

March 8th 2020, 4:37 pm

Jinn vs Ben: Jinn is somewhat fitter but Ben is a smarter combatant, a fair bit more powerful, has a better fighting style for his age, and he's arguably more skilled. Jinn doesn't have Vader's strength, so he's not tiring Ben as fast as Vader did. Ben wins.

Obi-Wan vs Luke: Luke is more powerful, more intuitive as a fighter and faster. Obi-Wan has more experience and better training, which I'm not sure amounts to better skill. Leaning Luke.

March 8th 2020, 4:39 pm

I actually think I'll back the PT team tentatively. Any arguments for the OT guys?

I think it's clear enough that Ben and Luke are stronger in the Force than Jinn and Obi-Wan, but I don't think that will save them here. They seem inferior as far as sabers go, in Luke's case due to a deficit in both training and experience, and in Ben's case due to being badly out of practice and physically degraded. Jinn is literally bursting at the seams with combat accolades that would leave him in good standing compared to even Yoda, Mace and Dooku, and has an extremely solid performance against Maul, who himself has even greater TPM-centric accolades that would put him on the level of Yoda, Mace and Dooku at that time. Kenobi is not far behind Jinn in skill, is faster and stronger in the Force. They're also an extremely well synchronized team, unlike Ben and Luke.

Is there any reason that fighting ANH and ESB Vader respectively is more impressive than the PT team's accolades and their own performance against Maul?

March 8th 2020, 4:40 pm

ILS wrote:I actually think I'll back the PT team tentatively. Any arguments for the OT guys?

I think it's clear enough that Ben and Luke are stronger in the Force than Jinn and Obi-Wan, but I don't think that will save them here. They seem inferior as far as sabers go, in Luke's case due to a deficit in both training and experience, and in Ben's case due to being badly out of practice and physically degraded. Jinn is literally bursting at the seams with combat accolades that would leave him in good standing compared to even Yoda, Mace and Dooku, and has an extremely solid performance against Maul, who himself has even greater TPM-centric accolades that would put him on the level of Yoda, Mace and Dooku at that time. Kenobi is not far behind Jinn in skill, is faster and stronger in the Force. They're also an extremely well synchronized team, unlike Ben and Luke.

Is there any reason that fighting ANH and ESB Vader respectively is more impressive than the PT team's accolades and their own performance against Maul?

Fair points, actually.

March 8th 2020, 4:41 pm

team 2 for a majority

March 8th 2020, 6:16 pm

ILS wrote:I actually think I'll back the PT team tentatively. Any arguments for the OT guys?

I think it's clear enough that Ben and Luke are stronger in the Force than Jinn and Obi-Wan, but I don't think that will save them here. They seem inferior as far as sabers go, in Luke's case due to a deficit in both training and experience, and in Ben's case due to being badly out of practice and physically degraded. Jinn is literally bursting at the seams with combat accolades that would leave him in good standing compared to even Yoda, Mace and Dooku, and has an extremely solid performance against Maul, who himself has even greater TPM-centric accolades that would put him on the level of Yoda, Mace and Dooku at that time. Kenobi is not far behind Jinn in skill, is faster and stronger in the Force. They're also an extremely well synchronized team, unlike Ben and Luke.

Is there any reason that fighting ANH and ESB Vader respectively is more impressive than the PT team's accolades and their own performance against Maul?

March 8th 2020, 6:16 pm

O-Siri wrote:Kenobi vs Luke is like comparing a GED freshman to a university grad student.

Jinn is the more sharper, spry, and fit of the two geezers.

PT duo walks all over OT team.

What does GED stand for??

March 8th 2020, 6:28 pm

Latham2000 wrote:

O-Siri wrote:Kenobi vs Luke is like comparing a GED freshman to a university grad student.

Jinn is the more sharper, spry, and fit of the two geezers.

PT duo walks all over OT team.

What does GED stand for??

General education development. It's for adults without a high school diploma.

March 8th 2020, 6:29 pm

@Latham2000 General Education Development, probably. It means you're a high school graduate in American terms.

March 8th 2020, 10:10 pm

BoD wrote:Jinn vs Ben: Jinn is somewhat fitter but Ben is a smarter combatant, a fair bit more powerful, has a better fighting style for his age, and he's arguably more skilled. Jinn doesn't have Vader's strength, so he's not tiring Ben as fast as Vader did. Ben wins.

Obi-Wan vs Luke: Luke is more powerful, more intuitive as a fighter and faster. Obi-Wan has more experience and better training, which I'm not sure amounts to better skill. Leaning Luke.

1. Jinn is more than somewhat fitter. He's better in the physical department in every conceivable way. There's no basis for Ben being the smarter combatant. I doubt he's more powerful either. If he was more powerful or even powerful in his own right it would be reflective in his physicals. Power is something that likely goes with age and inactivity; for instance I seriously doubt anyone would argue older and enlightened ESB Yoda is more powerful than RotS Yoda. Jinn is more than strong enough to seriously pressure Ben. If Jinn can make Maul, a warrior in his physical prime and juiced up on dark side PED, arms buckle, he can do worse to an old inactive decaying fossil. Jinn unlike Vader in that situation would be more likely to force the issue and wear him down quicker.

2. How is Luke faster? They both fought losing emotionally charged battles against Vader and Maul respectively only Maul is quicker than Vader. More powerful also seems a bit baseless too. And yeah Kenobi does have better training, over two decades worth, compared to Luke's two months crash course. It's only logical it amounts to superior skill.

Kenobi gets the benefit of reasonable inference, with him having the complete training Luke is sourly lacking. And he and Jinn both get the benefit of Lucas's statements which is fully back up by feats and logic.

March 8th 2020, 10:31 pm

Team two, Luke carries

March 9th 2020, 1:16 am

ILS is on the dot there. Too many advantages going for the PT team.

Unless you think Vader is Dooku tier, in which case ESB Luke gave him a "trying duel", so ESB Luke solos.

March 9th 2020, 2:01 am

Personally, I hold Vader above Dooku by a fair margin. ESB Luke giving Vader a good fight should put Luke solidly above either PT duelist in raw power and ability. Jinn is probably a bit superior to Ben in physical ability and possibly swordsmanship. But Ben's impressive defense is enough for him to hold off Jinn while Luke dispatches Kenobi.

March 9th 2020, 2:08 am

So ESB Luke beats TPM Maul? Nice.

March 9th 2020, 4:32 am

Meatpants wrote:So ESB Luke beats TPM Maul? Nice.

In my personal opinion, it'd be a good fight, but I don't see him solidly beating Maul. My ranking goes as follows:
ESB Vader>Dooku>Maul>ESB Luke
These aren't huge gaps, in my opinion. They're all relatively close to one another, but I definitely hold them all above TPM Kenobi, who is the weak link in the OP's match up. Once Kenobi goes down, Ben+ESB Luke will undoubtedly be too much for Jinn to handle in his own.

March 9th 2020, 9:21 am

Team 2 should take it in a nail biter. Vader was comparatively closer to Maul in Resurrection than Jinn was in TPM. Given this, the OT duo’s fights with Vader (Ben stalemating ANH and Luke giving a great fight to ESB), should mean one of them can hold well against Jinn long enough for the other to dismiss TPM Kenobi in short order, by which point they overwhelm Jinn due to sheer numbers.

March 9th 2020, 9:38 am

ScionOfSkywalker77 wrote:Team 2 should take it in a nail biter. Vader was comparatively closer to Maul in Resurrection than Jinn was in TPM. Given this, the OT duo’s fights with Vader (Ben stalemating ANH and Luke giving a great fight to ESB), should mean one of them can hold well against Jinn long enough for the other to dismiss TPM Kenobi in short order, by which point they overwhelm Jinn due to sheer numbers.

Though I doubt Ben, Vader, Luke, etc could manage to withstand Frenzy Jinn (when he had the final engagement with Maul) for as long as Maul did tbh. Ben doesn't have the stamina, and Luke hasn't the power.

March 9th 2020, 10:37 am

I am going with team 1. I subscribe to the George Lucas school of thought that, do to various reasons, the OT duelists were either past their prime (Ben) or woefully inexperienced (Luke). And, no, ESB Luke getting a lucky shot on Vader is not impressive to me when Vader cripples him moments later.

March 9th 2020, 11:27 am

Ngl, Jinn's fight with Maul is a bit more impressive to me than Vader's. Maul was clowning and shit talking Vader and was so much faster at one point his speed was represented as a triple afterimage. He only got serious nearer the end, at which point he had Vader dead to rights.

With Jinn, Maul was in an utterly ridiculous battle frenzy the entire duration on Tatooine. More real, head to head, brutal fighting happened in those 30-40 seconds than in the vast majority of Maul and Vader's duel - Maul never went on the backfoot and yet Jinn equalled his strength and even anticipated his attacks to an extent that even astonished Maul. And ESB Luke merely providing a "challenge" to Vader does not lend itself well to him defeating Obi-Wan, who is Jinn's near equal in sparring, faster and stronger with the Force.

March 9th 2020, 1:05 pm

Comparing Qui-Gon's and Vader's respective performances against Maul is pointless.

Maul was only shit talking Vader because Vader started the shit talking by calling him a a fake, and Maul responded in kind. And I think another reason why Maul was doing so much shit talking Vader was because he knew more about Vader than he knew about Jinn i.e. that he was once a Jedi Knight trained by Obi-Wan before joining the Dark Side, so he actually had something to shit talk about, and there's also the fact that Maul wanted Vader out of the way of being Palpatine's apprentice, a position from Maul's own view, was his rightful place. Jinn however, didn't say a word to Maul, and as far as Maul was aware, Qui-Gon was a really powerful Jedi, that's it, so Maul didn't say anything either, and Fightsaber says that Maul doesn't like shit talking, but prefers being silent. He's not silent at all when he fought Vader, which is rather telling of how different his approach was against Vader. And let's not forget that Qui-Gon failed to cut Maul's double bladed lightsaber in half, whereas Vader did.

March 9th 2020, 1:07 pm

@O-Siri

Power is something that likely goes with age and inactivity; for instance I seriously doubt anyone would argue older and enlightened ESB Yoda is more powerful than RotS Yoda.

This is a faulty comparison - Yoda's power explicitly decreased due to his spirit being broken after ROTS, not due to his growing older.

Qui gon Jinn and TPM Kenobi vs Ben Kenobi and ESB Luke

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