Ben Kenobi (ANH) vs Qui-Gon Jinn (TPM)

Ben Kenobi

vs...

Qui-Gon Jinn

Round 1: Kenobi retains his knowledge of Qui-Gon's tactics and technique.

Round 2: Kenobi's knowledge of Qui-Gon tactics and technique is removed.

Asides from that, standard SI rules.

Kenobi.

Kenobi

Jinn easily. Both by feats, statements, and stats. Ben doesn't have a gas tank anymore, he can't handle sustained pressure, he doesn't have an offense. He fought a very cautious Vader in a low intensity tactical duel and still burnt out. Both are old but Jinn has aged better, remained active, and kept his skills sharp. Big difference between someone merely past-prime and one who is shot to pieces. Jinn bulls right through him. It's not even remotely competitive.

Ben stomps

O-Siri wrote:Jinn easily. Both by feats, statements, and stats. Ben doesn't have a gas tank anymore, he can't handle sustained pressure, he doesn't have an offense. He fought a very cautious Vader in a low intensity tactical duel and still burnt out. Both are old but Jinn has aged better, remained active, and kept his skills sharp. Big difference between someone merely past-prime and one who is shot to pieces. Jinn bulls right through him. It's not even remotely competitive.

Hm. Would you say TPM Maul is a better duelist than ANH Vader?

Latham2000 wrote:

O-Siri wrote:Jinn easily. Both by feats, statements, and stats. Ben doesn't have a gas tank anymore, he can't handle sustained pressure, he doesn't have an offense. He fought a very cautious Vader in a low intensity tactical duel and still burnt out. Both are old but Jinn has aged better, remained active, and kept his skills sharp. Big difference between someone merely past-prime and one who is shot to pieces. Jinn bulls right through him. It's not even remotely competitive.

Hm. Would you say TPM Maul is a better duelist than ANH Vader?

Very much so. He's the prime specimen. Vader is damaged goods, a washed up has been, though I think Vader would have beaten Ben more decisively if he just forced the issue, it's just PTSD made him warry and cautious so he approached things tentatively. 

Anyways everyone knows my controversial stance on the whole prime suit Vader issue, that being I believe Vader's suit prime was during the early stages of the Purge when he was motivated in his quest to reawaken his potential and active in hunting Jedi, as apposed to the OT era where he seemed to have gotten old, complacent, and resigned to fact he'll never surpassed Sidious, until ESB when Luke's discovery seemed to reawaken old ambitions so I can buy him improving his game somewhat.

I can see an argument for Jinn, tbh. Depending on how close one believes he is relative to Maul and by extension Maul is to ANH Vader.

O-Siri wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:

O-Siri wrote:Jinn easily. Both by feats, statements, and stats. Ben doesn't have a gas tank anymore, he can't handle sustained pressure, he doesn't have an offense. He fought a very cautious Vader in a low intensity tactical duel and still burnt out. Both are old but Jinn has aged better, remained active, and kept his skills sharp. Big difference between someone merely past-prime and one who is shot to pieces. Jinn bulls right through him. It's not even remotely competitive.

Hm. Would you say TPM Maul is a better duelist than ANH Vader?

Very much so. He's the prime specimen. Vader is damaged goods, a washed up has been, though I think Vader would have beaten Ben more decisively if he just forced the issue, it's just PTSD made him warry and cautious so he approached things tentatively. 

Anyways everyone knows my controversial stance on the whole prime suit Vader issue, that being I believe Vader's suit prime was during the early stages of the Purge when he was motivated in his quest to reawaken his potential and active in hunting Jedi, as apposed to the OT era where he seemed to have gotten old, complacent, and resigned to fact he'll never surpassed Sidious, until ESB when Luke's discovery seemed to reawaken old ambitions so I can buy him improving his game somewhat.

For round 1, Kenobi retains his knowledge of Qui-Gon's tactics and technique. Do you think Qui-Gon would recognise Kenobi as a 32 year older version of his padawan, or nah?

Latham2000 wrote:

O-Siri wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:

O-Siri wrote:Jinn easily. Both by feats, statements, and stats. Ben doesn't have a gas tank anymore, he can't handle sustained pressure, he doesn't have an offense. He fought a very cautious Vader in a low intensity tactical duel and still burnt out. Both are old but Jinn has aged better, remained active, and kept his skills sharp. Big difference between someone merely past-prime and one who is shot to pieces. Jinn bulls right through him. It's not even remotely competitive.

Hm. Would you say TPM Maul is a better duelist than ANH Vader?

Very much so. He's the prime specimen. Vader is damaged goods, a washed up has been, though I think Vader would have beaten Ben more decisively if he just forced the issue, it's just PTSD made him warry and cautious so he approached things tentatively. 

Anyways everyone knows my controversial stance on the whole prime suit Vader issue, that being I believe Vader's suit prime was during the early stages of the Purge when he was motivated in his quest to reawaken his potential and active in hunting Jedi, as apposed to the OT era where he seemed to have gotten old, complacent, and resigned to fact he'll never surpassed Sidious, until ESB when Luke's discovery seemed to reawaken old ambitions so I can buy him improving his game somewhat.

For round 1, Kenobi retains his knowledge of Qui-Gon's tactics and technique. Do you think Qui-Gon would recognise Kenobi as a 32 year older version of his padawan, or nah?

I think Jinn would recognize Kenobi's Force signature yes. I don't think the knowledge advantage will be enough. I think this fight comes down to Jinn's superior physicals and him being closer to his prime than Kenobi. Kenobi just doesn't have a whole lot of options, as his duel with Vader shows us he can't weather the storm like he used too.

Qui Gon has a better performance against TPM Maul than Vader tbh. I'd give it to Jinn.

IG wrote:Qui Gon has a better performance against TPM Maul than Vader tbh. I'd give it to Jinn.

Vader broke Maul's saberstaff, which Jinn failed to replicate to be fair.

Latham2000 wrote:

IG wrote:Qui Gon has a better performance against TPM Maul than Vader tbh. I'd give it to Jinn.

Vader broke Maul's saberstaff, which Jinn failed to replicate to be fair.

Maul seemed to intentionally block the saber with his hilt.

IG wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:

IG wrote:Qui Gon has a better performance against TPM Maul than Vader tbh. I'd give it to Jinn.

Vader broke Maul's saberstaff, which Jinn failed to replicate to be fair.

Maul seemed to intentionally block the saber with his hilt.

True, but that's impressive when taking into consideration that Qui-Gon couldn't do it and Obi-Wan required a suprise Force rage boost to do it, whereas Vader was fighting Maul on his usual level of anger.

Maul seemed to intentionally block the saber with his hilt.

Why would he do that?

Maul wasn't trying to use his saberstaff hilt to block Vader's lightsaber. What happened is that Maul tried to kick Vader, but failed because Vader grabbed Maul's leg and pushed him back, leaving Maul's saberstaff vulnerable to being cut in half.

O-Siri wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:

O-Siri wrote:Jinn easily. Both by feats, statements, and stats. Ben doesn't have a gas tank anymore, he can't handle sustained pressure, he doesn't have an offense. He fought a very cautious Vader in a low intensity tactical duel and still burnt out. Both are old but Jinn has aged better, remained active, and kept his skills sharp. Big difference between someone merely past-prime and one who is shot to pieces. Jinn bulls right through him. It's not even remotely competitive.

Hm. Would you say TPM Maul is a better duelist than ANH Vader?

Very much so. He's the prime specimen. Vader is damaged goods, a washed up has been, though I think Vader would have beaten Ben more decisively if he just forced the issue, it's just PTSD made him warry and cautious so he approached things tentatively. 

Anyways everyone knows my controversial stance on the whole prime suit Vader issue, that being I believe Vader's suit prime was during the early stages of the Purge when he was motivated in his quest to reawaken his potential and active in hunting Jedi, as apposed to the OT era where he seemed to have gotten old, complacent, and resigned to fact he'll never surpassed Sidious, until ESB when Luke's discovery seemed to reawaken old ambitions so I can buy him improving his game somewhat.

The argument here is one I've considered myself, afterall Vader during 18bby is more angry and less stable than his OT variations, the problem I run into is Luke. Everything I've read seems to imply Vader's dueling dropped off around ANH and he's clearly depressed. Like I would say Vader is borderline suicidal only living so he can murder Ben and achieve some measure of peace but with the discovery of his son on he trains harder than ever before. I think of it like riding a bike, Vader has already cataloged all that skill he developed during the purge, but he hadn't had anyone worthy to use it on until now. While his power has been increasing passively, he doesn't fully begin to grow and stretch his wings so to speak until he finds something worth living for, this also strengthens the father/son dynamic with Luke I find so intriguing and fits with the quotes, so I consider ROTJ prime Vader, but I see your opinion as well.

Ben Kenobi considering ANH Vader>>Jinn based on his performance against Maul

Haggis wrote:I can see an argument for Jinn, tbh. Depending on how close one believes he is relative to Maul and by extension Maul is to ANH Vader.

Resurrection was published to show how TPM Maul and ANH Vader compare, so there's your benchmark.

IG wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:

IG wrote:Qui Gon has a better performance against TPM Maul than Vader tbh. I'd give it to Jinn.

Vader broke Maul's saberstaff, which Jinn failed to replicate to be fair.

Maul seemed to intentionally block the saber with his hilt.

Yeh because Maul is such a retard he would allow his own saber staff to be split by Vader 
At this point you are just making excuses to lowball Vader for no reason

SithSauce wrote:Yeh because Maul is such a retard he would allow his own saber staff to be split by Vader 
At this point you are just making excuses to lowball Vader for no reason

As I said yesterday:

Latham2000 wrote:Maul wasn't trying to use his saberstaff hilt to block Vader's lightsaber. What happened is that Maul tried to kick Vader, but failed because Vader grabbed Maul's leg and pushed him back, leaving Maul's saberstaff vulnerable to being cut in half.

ben stomps easily

Even if Maul blocked it with his hilt - the fact is Maul wouldn't intentionally allow his saber staff to be cut in two - it's his own fault for being pushed into a position where he needed to perform such a move in the first place.

 As I said yesterday:

@Latham2000 wrote:Maul wasn't trying to use his saberstaff hilt to block Vader's lightsaber. What happened is that Maul tried to kick Vader, but failed because Vader grabbed Maul's leg and pushed him back, leaving Maul's saberstaff vulnerable to being cut in half.

So you concede Maul was forced into a situation where Vader was able to outplay him and slice his staff in half.

BoD wrote:

 As I said yesterday:

@Latham2000 wrote:Maul wasn't trying to use his saberstaff hilt to block Vader's lightsaber. What happened is that Maul tried to kick Vader, but failed because Vader grabbed Maul's leg and pushed him back, leaving Maul's saberstaff vulnerable to being cut in half.

So you concede Maul was forced into a situation where Vader was able to outplay him and slice his staff in half.

Meaning what exactly? Yes Vader broke Maul's saberstaff in two separate blades but that's not an indication of ANH Vader having superior swordsmanship because all he did was damage Maul's weapon, meanwhile Maul landed more devastating strikes on Vader.