Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

February 10th 2020, 4:04 am

Mace.

February 10th 2020, 4:38 am Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

AP: How do we know that FotJ Kun > JA spirit Kun? We can say that a JA living Kun would be beyond JA spirit Kun, but there's no reason to think that his power stayed constant for thousands of years dwelling on a dark side nexus, especially since he had completed a ritual that could be described as a mini-Nathema.

February 10th 2020, 5:22 am

Because not only do the authors responsible say TOTJ > JA, but the actual sources make it exceptionally clear that the ritual was designed for the sole purpose of transforming him into a spirit so he could escape the Jedi attack. It didn't give him uber powers nor does anything say it did. Furthermore, we know for a fact that he had to literally hang-on to the temple focal points so as to resist the pull of the void on his spirit. He wasn't getting stronger, he just got used to his state. He literally was forced to slumber because he had no energy to sustain himself until Luke came and woke him up. He's literally described as seeking the power he would need to live again which is defined as restoring his lost reserves of energy:

Exar Kun-who didn't technically die so much as merge with the dark side and retain his identity-resisted the dissolution of his spirit by drawing on the remarkable focusing energies of the Massassi temples on Yavin 4.

See again:

Exar Kun passed the millennia in uneasy slumber.
A few scant years later, Kun is brought sharply awake by the arrival of not one or two, but a dozen humans blazing with the power he needed to live again. Eagerly but cautiously, Kun observes each arrival, probing for weaknesses and the power he needs to restore his lost reserves of energy. For a time, he is able to subside by feeding on their residual energy, but soon he will need worshippers if he is to grow more active. With a nucleus of followers to provide him energy-providing anger and fear, Kun will have enough power to escape his exile and take on human form. To his surprise, Kun recognizes the leader to be the same man who had visited Yavin Four years earlier, now much more powerful in the Force. Too powerful, for the moment, for Kun to tackle.
Kun finds Gantoris, strong-willed and impatient to learn, to be a more promising first candidate. He easily seduces Gantoris in the same manner that Nadd had seduced him—by promising forbidden knowledge and the truly powerful Jedi secrets Gantoris cannot wait to learn. Carefully building up and feeding on the anger of his first apprentice, Kun grows in power. Soon he feels confident to make an attempt to subvert Luke, knowing that if he can sway the teacher, the students will all follow. Kun, posing as Anakin Skywalker, appears to Luke and attempts to pull him toward the forbidden Sith teachings by tempting him to use Sith power to seize control of the New Republic and destroy the Empire. Realizing that this shade is not that of his father, Luke rejects the offer.
Enraged and drained, Kun returns to Gantoris. Desperate for more energy, he goads Gantoris to new heights of anger by showing him the Eol Sha colonists dying on Dantooine. Gantoris is pushed too far, however, and turns on his Sith master. Realizing that Gantoris is no longer his, Kun utterly drains him to provide himself a reserve of energy to last until he can subvert more students.
Kun has just begun edging in on Streen when Kyp Durron arrives at the Jedi Academy. Kun immediately senses in the young man his ideal subject. Like Gantoris, Kyp is strong-willed and impatient to learn. Moreover, he is far more powerful than the Eol Sha leader, and young enough to be overconfident and naive.
Over a number of weeks, Kun slowly bends Kyp to his will, and begins to augment his power. He grows very powerful on Kyp's hate, and soon his hold on Kyp is so complete that he can send Kyp beyond the planet to do his will and still retain control over his subject. Ultimately, he has Kyp return to Yavin Four and helps him reclaim the Sun Crusher. He also bolsters Kyp's talents to allow him to defeat Luke and place him in a coma.

And:

The Jedi chased Exar Kun to his stronghold on Yavin IV and used their combined power to strike him down and annihilate his Massassi warriors. However, Exar Kun was able to escape death by using Sith sorcery to preserve his spirit in the Massassi temples.

Again:

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 4 Screen40

Please provide sources for literally anything you've claimed against the aforementioned.

February 10th 2020, 7:08 am

February 10th 2020, 8:35 am

Go ahead and prove otherwise, not that you can.

February 10th 2020, 8:40 am

Has anyone ever told you that you are a likeable guy/girl (I mean no offence, I just don't know) but that your responses to people are more cancerous and toxic than literally Ziggy?

February 10th 2020, 8:42 am

In all seriousness the contenders here are mace, revan, vol and possibly vaylin/OL

February 10th 2020, 9:08 am

Isv wrote:Has anyone ever told you that you are a likeable guy/girl (I mean no offence, I just don't know) but that your responses to people are more cancerous and toxic than literally Ziggy?

Literally name a reason why Ellimist is right, and I, with the appropriate sources to prove my point, am wrong.

February 10th 2020, 9:13 am

LadyKulvax wrote:

Isv wrote:Has anyone ever told you that you are a likeable guy/girl (I mean no offence, I just don't know) but that your responses to people are more cancerous and toxic than literally Ziggy?

Literally name a reason why Ellimist is right, and I, with the appropriate sources to prove my point, am wrong.

He's not talking about your skills, he's talking about your etiquette when debating.

February 10th 2020, 9:22 am

I spent three years on Killermovies. I'm jaded and grumpy.

February 10th 2020, 9:28 am

Why put yourself through that?

February 10th 2020, 9:36 am Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)

Blame Ant.

February 10th 2020, 11:01 am Message reputation : 100% (4 votes)

With a lot of cases going for this round of the tournament, I thought this would be a good time to introduce Koro Zill, also known as the Hidden One . While he admittedly doesn’t have much, I do think the Hidden one performed rather well against Luke, even accounting for the circumstances (link to the full fight). The main factor being Koro Zill’s noted anger during the fight, which would have certainly made him stronger. However, it is interesting to note that, unlike in many other instances, Luke was not weakened or injured from previous encounters and, by contrast, appeared to be determined to end the hidden one’s reign and expose him, as he had lied to the kel dors for several decades, along with his(and, by extension their) rejection of life. Essentially, Luke considered ending his reign an act of mercy, similarity to Yoda’s desire to destroy Dooku being driven by compassion rather than anger,as he notes in dark rendezveus :

Outcast wrote:He exhaled, forcing the helium-rich Dorin atmosphere out of the mask, then took a new breath before answering. “I guess not. These Baran Do are wronging themselves, too. Following a paranoid down into this hole, pretending to be dead—”
“There you go. The Force is an energy of life. These Kel Dors, in pretending to be dead, are rejecting life. They’re unwittingly becoming dead. How much happiness have you seen down here? How much enthusiasm?”
“I’d say it reaches pretty far into the negative numbers. They’re all about duty, but not about happiness.”
Luke shoveled the last of the larger rocks into his cart. “So if we escape now, what happens to them?”
Ben slumped, defeated. “They continue to live their nasty little lives and nothing gets better.”
“Correct.”
“They brought it on themselves.”
“Spoken with all the sympathy and altruism of a teenager who’d rather be doing something else.”
Ben grinned, unabashed. “You’ve got that right.”

Having established this let’s look at the actual fight:
1- Luke activates his lightsaber “up in time” and blocks the Hidden one’s charged lightning. Note that he is “took off his feet” not because of bad positioning or a similar reason, but rather the “the strength behind the attack”, per the book itself.
2- after recovering from the attack, the hidden one generates “a ripple in the force”, manipulating the air in the room, by simply tossing his head, so strong that Luke has “greet his teeth”and root himself to withstand it, taking a step forward (indicating that he was proceeding slowly).
3- Luke notes the hidden one’s strength was “great” but his own footing and strength was enough to withstand it.
4- Zill generates a whirlwind , so strong that Luke’s TK exertion to send it away is described as a “physical blow”. At this point, Luke is barely halfway to the Hidden one.
5- after once again redirecting the whirlwind (which I might add was powerful enough to crack the permacrete of a pillar), Luke throws a destroyed pillar to his opponent, who leaps away, but in doing so his concentration is broken, which Luke uses as an opportunity to bridge the distance between them and disable him, with a single kick, enough to leave him “exhausted”.

Overall, based on their duel, I would say the hidden one’s ability to force Luke to root himself and throw him off his feet with a lightning bolt is extremely impressive, especially since:
1- it has only been replicated by UnuThul and It’s admittedly a lot better than anything Caedus has achieved, whose force defenses Luke could downright breach both in inferno and later in revelation.
2- Zill faced a determined FOTJ Luke, who a years earlier shocked Caedus with his power and, not much later, went all out against Abeloth.
3- Zill was likely well out of his prime, at least combatively, since we know all the Kel Dors who simbolically “died” and retired in the underground caverns lost their will to live. We see Charsae Sal, was defeated by Ben despite being clearly a superior fighter:

Outcast wrote:Chara struggled to rise. Abandoning her futile attempt to keep him still, Ithia helped him to his feet. “Master,” he said, “I am this boy’s superior in fighting skill. I am strong in the Force. But he won. He won through the will to win. Through conviction, through strength of purpose. I lost because I lack these things.”

Luke says the same thing earlier:

Outcast wrote:Charsae Saal, because he has decades of experience. And because, having only recently come here, he is not a listless, lifeless reflection of his former self. But he has still been fading for years. He’s been preparing himself for death all that time. My bet is that he’s a shadow of his former self. And that my son, his junior in experience by many, many years, can take him.”

Given the Hidden One was among them I don’t see why he shouldn’t be in the same weakened state, a state worsened by a lack of training as well.

Lastly, and most importantly for this tournament, the amount of unorthodox abilities the Hidden one has in his arsenal gives him a huge advantage in this tourney. Those include whirlwind, obtained through their expert manipulation of the environment, force lightning and the An’ya Seff and Hassat-Durr tecniques. This is what is the description provided by the Baran-Do sages when Luke first learns the ability:

Outcast wrote:She shook her head. "The hassat-durr techniques suffuse your body with a very low level of electromagnetic radiation. You produce the radiation as an interaction between the Force and your own mental influence over your central nervous system. The energies a student produces early in his study of the technique attract lightning much like a lightning rod. It is for this reason that this skill, like that of dismantling high explosives, is best perfected before it is ever attempted in the field."

He then later uses it to channel the nightsisters’ lighting:

Backlash wrote:Luke traversed toward the right. The Witches' lightning stayed with him. Too late, the Witches recognized his tactic. The crackling streams of lightning crossed over Luke's rancor.
The lightning jittered over the beast's body, illuminating it. The beast stumbled in its run, falling forward. Its inadvertent dive brought it below the lightning bolts, which returned to harry Luke.

Lightning is one of Malgus’ primary methods of attack, meaning Zill is going to have an easy time simply channeling it elsewhere. As such, i think Malgus would need to become stronger than Zill himself in order to effectively defeat him.

February 10th 2020, 11:28 am

I change my vote for Koro Zill AKA The Hidden One.

February 10th 2020, 12:28 pm

@lorenzo.r.2nd

i really gotta learn how to separate quotes like this lol...

i agree. his feats are in fact better. actually, vader only great feats come from the TFU games lol him taking the explosion, him fighting galen, him whooping Kota, etc.

Taking which explosion? And his fights with Galen have heavy context, so I'm not convinced they're really "great" feats.

Aside from that, he has some building level feats, and some skill feats here and there. Actually, the only things that lets people put vader as high as they do without looking into all his feats and accolades is prolly the TFU games.

So, you admit Vader is completely outclassed in a feats comparison? That's great.

I dont think its ambiguous tho. Vader CAN replicate all of galen's earlier feats from the game, and at least copy them by the end.

Based on?

By TFU 2, he can replicate anything galen did, possibly even the explosive blast, and match Sk, meaning that he can also replicate some if not most of his feats.

I don't think he can. Vader matched SK in a state where Galen was performing well below base (he struggles to lift a small ship), and at peak Galen is certainly better if we're to take the Clones comparison as a reliable indication of their power levels (which I don't see why we wouldn't).

The only thing that we seem to disagree on here is how much stronger prime Vader is, and how strong a healthy SK is.

A healthy SK is massively above TFU 2 Vader, and I'm not at all convinced Vader's unquantifiable growth makes up the gap.

He clearly wasnt even an idea in the OT. Actually, if u got to someone in 77 and told them "Vader is totally the guy to take multiple apprentices" he would laugh at ur face lol.

Of course, SK wasn't an idea in 1977, and yes, that's the OOU reason for why SK isn't in the OT, but the IU reason needs to be explained as well, and it's most easily explained by SK dying sometime after TFU 2.

As for the second part, iirc, the game developers say that Vader beats and escapes SK, and that Vader held back throughout most of the fight.

Ideas in the concept stage don't concern me when they contradict already established TFU material. If the game had been released this point would have validity but seeing as it didn't, I'm going to take the already established intent over it.

A full on healthy SK, btw, against a possibly weakened Vader. I will say something- if this were to happen, and Vader killed SK, it would explain why he doenst exist in OT

Yes, it would, but as explained above these ideas were never brought into the continuity. As it stands, it's unknown what happened to SK after TFU 2, and thus there's no reason to include him in Vader's ANH accolades.

February 10th 2020, 12:29 pm

Starkiller scales below ROTJ Luke. Let's forget him.

February 10th 2020, 12:31 pm

Which you've substantiated with a shit ton of evidence...

February 10th 2020, 12:38 pm

im surprised at the lack of people putting faith in Vol when his plethora of feats/ Accolades despite being less numerous, put him on the same level of power as FOTJ Luke, someone who far outstrips ROTS sheev.

Mace windu holds rights to this list, as does Talzin, Geth, The HoTlander, Vaylin U, but to sleep on Darish Vol is blowing my mind, and i dont even call myself educated on the subject. Taalon even could make it on here, but to put Mace now is just kinda funny.

Krayt reborn is already here and yet somehow Vol is not. Literally thats mind boggling to me.

February 10th 2020, 12:43 pm

Vol is among my top picks. Hopefully he'll gain some support.

February 10th 2020, 12:44 pm

Jedi_Jesus wrote:im surprised at the lack of people putting faith in Vol when his plethora of feats/ Accolades despite being less numerous, put him on the same level of power as FOTJ Luke, someone who far outstrips ROTS sheev.

Vol is capped below Sheev per a few quotes, while his feats and accolades, while obviously very impressive, are pretty much unquantifiable. The hidden could be argued to have much of the power of Luke in an equally vague way as Vol , and he actually has a feat to back that up.

February 10th 2020, 12:49 pm

MasterCilghal wrote:

Jedi_Jesus wrote:im surprised at the lack of people putting faith in Vol when his plethora of feats/ Accolades despite being less numerous, put him on the same level of power as FOTJ Luke, someone who far outstrips ROTS sheev.

Vol is capped below Sheev per a few quotes, while his feats and accolades, while obviously very impressive, are pretty much unquantifiable. The hidden could be argued to have much of the power of Luke in an equally vague way as Vol , and he actually has a feat to back that up.

Sidious as of DE perhaps, but not ROTS Sheev; Unless you know something that i simply do not regarding these two.
I dont think i understand how Vol WOULDNT have a feat to back it up, seeing as he hurt abeloth so tangibly in their encounter, her guard down or not. Vol shrugged off multiple buffets of anger trying to get vol out of her head and he tanked them all, as well as the numerous other tendrils of energy he tanked being beat to death with. Vol's massive hype of being able to oneshot Workan also is worth noting, since it places him far above the rest of the other High lords because of it.

February 10th 2020, 1:20 pm

Jedi_Jesus wrote:I dont think i understand how Vol WOULDNT have a feat to back it up, seeing as he hurt abeloth so tangibly in their encounter, her guard down or not. Vol shrugged off multiple buffets of anger trying to get vol out of her head and he tanked them all, as well as the numerous other tendrils of energy he tanked being beat to death with.

Their duel was exclusively a TP one. All the attacks Vol tanked were, for the most part, of such a nature. As for him hurting Abeloth, that was achieved by using a force ability, which, as we see in the previous book, that even when used with extreme care could deal incredible damage to a mind, and Abeloth’s mental state made her especially sensitive to it, it’s not a result of his power, at least not completely.
As for Workan, I don’t see how it relates to Zill in any way.
Regardless, what I was talking about is that Zill has a feat against Luke himself, which makes it more believable for me than a vague “much of the power” quote, which in itself can mean a lot of things.

February 10th 2020, 2:42 pm

MasterCilghal wrote:

Jedi_Jesus wrote:I dont think i understand how Vol WOULDNT have a feat to back it up, seeing as he hurt abeloth so tangibly in their encounter, her guard down or not. Vol shrugged off multiple buffets of anger trying to get vol out of her head and he tanked them all, as well as the numerous other tendrils of energy he tanked being beat to death with.

Their duel was exclusively a TP one. All the attacks Vol tanked were, for the most part, of such a nature. As for him hurting Abeloth, that was achieved by using a force ability, which, as we see in the previous book, that even when used with extreme care could deal incredible damage to a mind, and Abeloth’s mental state made her especially sensitive to it, it’s not a result of his power, at least not completely.
As for Workan, I don’t see how it relates to Zill in any way.
Regardless, what I was talking about is that Zill has a feat against Luke himself, which makes it more believable for me than a vague “much of the power” quote, which in itself can mean a lot of things.

Their duel was exclusively "TP" but all of the wounds abeloth inflicted affected Vol physically, so to say he didnt affect her physically would be kind of a weird and kinda weak argument to make. but, eh. You're probably more knowledgeable than i am on the subject anyways.
"I dont see how that relates to zill in any way." I was just providing scaling more than anything else. Luke constantly holds back in all that he does, so to use any feat "against luke." is fallacy in itself. Luke never goes all out with his full power, save Oneness events and events leading up to the end of DE.

February 10th 2020, 2:54 pm

NotAA3 wrote:@lorenzo.r.2nd

i really gotta learn how to separate quotes like this lol...

i agree. his feats are in fact better. actually, vader only great feats come from the TFU games lol him taking the explosion, him fighting galen, him whooping Kota, etc.

Taking which explosion? And his fights with Galen have heavy context, so I'm not convinced they're really "great" feats.

For one, tanking isnt exactly the right word, since he took damage, and secondly, i mean the one Galen made at the end of TFU 1. Heavy context on both sides, i believe.

Aside from that, he has some building level feats, and some skill feats here and there. Actually, the only things that lets people put vader as high as they do without looking into all his feats and accolades is prolly the TFU games.

So, you admit Vader is completely outclassed in a feats comparison? That's great.

I thought this was kinda obvious lol. So is Sidious when compared to Poof, but we all know who is stronger.

I dont think its ambiguous tho. Vader CAN replicate all of galen's earlier feats from the game, and at least copy them by the end.

Based on?

Him being stronger than any of the other people who gave Galen trouble, and the fact that Galen could no beat him without holding back? Pretty obvious tbh.

By TFU 2, he can replicate anything galen did, possibly even the explosive blast, and match Sk, meaning that he can also replicate some if not most of his feats.

I don't think he can. Vader matched SK in a state where Galen was performing well below base (he struggles to lift a small ship), and at peak Galen is certainly better if we're to take the Clones comparison as a reliable indication of their power levels (which I don't see why we wouldn't).

Vader was holding back in the first half, iirc, and only got serious once SK got a pretty big rage boost. Did u ever think that if Vader had idk how many clones so very strong, that he wouldve already used them to kill Sheev? That line makes no sense IN and OUT of universe.

The only thing that we seem to disagree on here is how much stronger prime Vader is, and how strong a healthy SK is.

A healthy SK is massively above TFU 2 Vader, and I'm not at all convinced Vader's unquantifiable growth makes up the gap.

Massively is a big, baseless stretch there. The difference between being fatigued to being in perfect health is not as big u seem to think it is. U seem to believe that SK wouldve been 10x stronger if he werent tired lol which is obviously not the case. As for Vader, his growth is far more realistic than SK's supposed one.

ROTJ Vader (not a significant growth, but enough to distinguish him from his ESB self) > ESB Vader (a significant growth between him and ANH Vader, as he is said to be far more formidable) >> ANH Vader (no huge growth between him and TFU 2, but it is there) > TFU 2 ~ SK.

All in all ROTJ Vader >>>> TFU Vader. SK is not this far above TFU 2 Vader, no matter how u look at it.

He clearly wasnt even an idea in the OT. Actually, if u got to someone in 77 and told them "Vader is totally the guy to take multiple apprentices" he would laugh at ur face lol.

Of course, SK wasn't an idea in 1977, and yes, that's the OOU reason for why SK isn't in the OT, but the IU reason needs to be explained as well, and it's most easily explained by SK dying sometime after TFU 2.

Or Vader is stronger than him. Wait, no, thats just impossible. Nevermind...

As for the second part, iirc, the game developers say that Vader beats and escapes SK, and that Vader held back throughout most of the fight.

Ideas in the concept stage don't concern me when they contradict already established TFU material. If the game had been released this point would have validity but seeing as it didn't, I'm going to take the already established intent over it.

It wasnt a concept, it was the premise for the next game's campaign. As for them not concerning u- thats ur problem, not mine.

A full on healthy SK, btw, against a possibly weakened Vader. I will say something- if this were to happen, and Vader killed SK, it would explain why he doenst exist in OT

Yes, it would, but as explained above these ideas were never brought into the continuity. As it stands, it's unknown what happened to SK after TFU 2, and thus there's no reason to include him in Vader's ANH accolades.

Just as u said, nothing can be said about his whereabouts, so yet again, there is no reason either to EXCLUDE him from the quotes. Both urs and my points apply here. Its fairer to say that this subject will literally never be answered (unless someone asked Witwer lol) and that i want to waste my time here lol

February 10th 2020, 3:03 pm

Jedi_Jesus wrote:Their duel was exclusively "TP" but all of the wounds abeloth inflicted affected Vol physically, so to say he didnt affect her physically would be kind of a weird and kinda weak argument to make. but, eh. You're probably more knowledgeable than i am on the subject anyways.

Sure, but that doesn’t change my point. We know telepathy can deal physical damage (see Nyax) and the fight is stated to be a struggle of minds, not a contest of power, which is why I take issue with it. Regardless, Abeloth is repeatedly shown to be significantly more powerful than than Luke, making the prospect of Vol legitimately contending with her suspect.

Jedi_Jesus wrote:I dont see how that relates to zill in any way." I was just providing scaling more than anything else. Luke constantly holds back in all that he does, so to use any feat "against luke." is fallacy in itself. Luke never goes all out with his full power, save Oneness events and events leading up to the end of DE.

Luke doesn’t need to go all out to be a formidable opponent. All I’m saying is that a determined FOTJ Luke was given a fight by The Hidden one, who arguably performed better than Caedus, forcing him to root himself in order to withstand his attack. Not necessarily all-out, but not effortlessly either, which makes sense considering that Legacy Luke has shown much more willingness to make use of his power.