★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

Darish Vol, tbh. Though Mace has a shot too.

I call a do over. We forgot Darth Nihlius. I posted a link for the debate.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/darth-nihilus/4005-47874/forums/regarding-misconceptions-on-nihiluss-tk-feat-on-ma-2062536/?page=1

Nihilus is a banned character

Cheth wrote:Nihilus is a banned character

Seriously?

Can we have alternate unbanned list then.

Wandering Jedi wrote:Can we have alternate unbanned list then.

He's probably banned because the only real argument he has for being able to beat characters like Plagueis, Mace, etc. is his drain. Everything else he's comfortably below them in either through scaling or through feats.

I think it's mostly to exclude "weird" characters so the list isn't clogged with weird entities and one trick ponies.

@BoD

Darth Nihlius can crush them with TK.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/darth-nihilus/4005-47874/forums/regarding-misconceptions-on-nihiluss-tk-feat-on-ma-2062536/?page=1

wow a guy called nihilus talking about nihilus. its like ant talking about ants.

@Wandering Jedi A vague feat with zero context and which is noted to have barely left the ship in one piece. For all we know, he'd consumed 5 planets before that just to perform a single feat.

@BoD

Depends if Nihilus is fully fed or not. He can replicate that feat if Nihilus fed.

And Vitiate could have been Father level+ if he'd consumed the galaxy. That's not his base level.

Bro Nihilus with Banite scaling and the aforementioned feats ragdolls Luke. We need to redo this list tbh

@BoD

If Mace Windu was powerful in the force. He would had telekinetic rag dolled those two beasts.

@Isv

Mace couldn't defeat Mother Talzin who is below most sith lords.

Im switching my vote to pirates

@Wandering Jedi Mace is irrelevant to the conversation.

Wandering Jedi wrote:Talzin who is below most sith lords.

Why?

When are we voting for 10?

@Xolthol wrote:We can scale Darish Vol from the Abeloth that he faced. The version that he hurted by using a particular technic nearly killed him and then when enraged was only able to destroy the capital city of the Lost Tribe. While this is a goodd feat this is way below planetary level and thus to defeat Vol Malgus will only need an amp around this level of power. As I have shown, Prime Chained Vaylin is above planetary level feat which put her cleary in another league than a city-level amped Malgus.

You’are assuming the Abeloth Vol faced was somehow city-level in power. I don’t think there’s any indication that is the case. All of her avatars, with the exception of the extremely weakened ones faced by Saba and Tahiri/Boba have consistently been portrayed to be beyond FOTJ Luke Skywalker, who has been repeatedly able to perform feats that can easily be categorized as planetary in magnitude (e.g. the dovin basal one, which is moon-level at the very least). As for the feat itself, when she unleashed force blast to destroy T(r)ahv Vol had just used mnemotherapy to damage her mind. The novel later makes it clear she was left severely injured by the attack: 

[size=17]Abeloth sat huddled in Ship's interior. She had not revealed to Khai or anyone just how badly wounded she had been by the attack on Kesh.[/size]

Furthermore, the blast was meant to destroy the city, but Abeloth seemed to have purposefully decided to attack and destroy the city itself, not the entire planet. And even then, she was in a state wherein she “couldn’t retain her form” or even “feel harm”: 

[size=17]Abeloth screamed from a mouth that slashed her face in two. Unable to retain her form, unable even to notice that she had not retained her form, she thrashed and howled as tentacles erupted from her torso and her face shifted like melting wax. Her anguish used the Force as a weapon, as she had so often before, but this time she was barely aware that she was releasing nearly inconceivable amounts of Force energy upon a city that was completely unprepared for it.

There were several dozen beings within immediate range, some sleeping quietly in their beds. Most were with their families.

They imploded. Farther away, others awoke in agony as their bodies were turned inside out and chunks were ripped from their bones.

The entire city was attacked by a wind filled with glass shards, each a shikkar driven by a single purpose-to hurt anyone, anything, living inside the City of Glass. They were the Lost Tribe-they would suffer, all of them, as their leader had made her suffer.

The shards melted as they pierced flesh, spreading white-hot, painful death. The buildings, made of metal and glass, dripped slowly toward the ground, smothering those unfortunate enough to be dwelling inside them.

None of it harmed Abeloth, though she would not have noticed if it had. She barely noticed when she was lifted from the street where she lay convulsing up into the night air, and a large shape that looked like nothing so much as an angry orange eye sped toward her.[/size]

As for Vol, I do believe he was most likely dealing with telepathic attacks from her, which makes any kind of planetary comparison pointless. However, if you believe the defense Vol mounted against her is contingent on his power, then I don’t see any reason to think he was merely dealing with city-level power. 

@Xolthol wrote:Yes, his performance against Luke was impressive. However this showing was nothing more than what Unuthul dispatch on Luke which was able to anchor him in the heart of the Force to become unmovable. Here Luke was able to move and to progress. This is a clear proof that at this moment the Hidden One is comparable to Unuthul in power. I have already explained why Darish Vol was in fact more powerful than Unuthul [here].

I completely disagree with your argument. For starters, you said yourself Darish Vol is far beyond Workan, but also below Luke automatically means Workan’s contention with the grand master was circumstantial, which is actually supported by the lore: 
(1) Luke was trying to take Workan alive, which is downright stated in the book. This is why we get statements like “well matched and desperate” from a Vestara who was not aware of the specific circumstances surrounding the fight. 
(2) Luke is constantly injured throughout the FOTJ series, as a result of his exertions on Sinkhole station and Dathomir. 
By contrast, against Unu Luke (who at this point is at the “height of his powers” per the Jedi academy training manual, so you can’t really argue growth on Luke’s part) is described as summoning all the speed and might he could and is later forced to go all out to simply withstand Raynar’s attack: 

[size=17]Luke killed the last of Raynar's bodyguards by Force-slamming them into the wall so hard their thoraxes burst,
then the two Jedi were on one another, their lightsabers flashing toward each other's heads with all the speed and might they could summon.[/size]

Now, since you’ve said you believe Zill~Unu, I guess Zill is a one-shot gap beyond Workan too, and maybe even more powerful than Vol. 
 

@Xolthol wrote:Even though you can think that Prime Koro Zill is more powerful than this version, the fact that we don't have anything to precisely scale him make impossible for anyone to clearly put him above Unuthul (at least by a Darish Vol league). A similar reasoning can be made with Yoda whose prime must be at least 200 years before the prequel. We cannot make a solid argument in the favor of someone only based on a theoretical decrease in their power.

We can compare it with Charsae Sal, an example i brought up earlier in my post, who went from being far better than Ben to losing to him as an effect of his denial of life. 

@MasterCilghal I will respond in the coming week

@Ellimist 


I'm sorry I responded this late.  Didn't know you restated your case and things obviously got buried under many pages.  Still, couldn't leave this un-adressed.  


First off

Elm wrote:That early-LotF Jacen matters to endgame Jacen because you claim Jacen thought he was getting close to Luke in power (when, IIRC, he just said he was getting closer).

Jacen believes as of Book 2 : Bloodlines something along the lines of this :


"I'm more powerful than anyone on the council bar Luke.  
I'm getting closer to Luke.
I will surpass him with Sith Mastery"  


He also believes as of book 5 : Sacrifice, that he's attained Sith Mastery.  So there's no way to look at it differently.  He believes that he's close to Luke early in the series.  Even if those words wren't literally written.  Yet :


> You argue that Jacen regards TUF when assessing LOTF Luke 
> You argue that TUF Luke is likely far beyond Palpatine's strongest incarnation 
> You argue that Palpatine has grown a lot since ROTS 
> You argue that Jacen's assessment of Luke isn't delusional or wrong 


But have you considered the implication of Jacen being right?  He has to be above every heavy hitter in ROTS by a fair margin as early as the 2nd book.  Beyond tier nine and probably stronger than Palpatine's peak incarnation?  And even stronger than that by book 5... tier 11 perhaps ?

If he believes that he's a tier or two off that mark, then we can consider his idea of Luke's power sullied.  Enough to disregard what he thinks and defer to feats.  And on the subject of feats 

I could posit that Jacen was extremely distracted and caught off guard by Aurra Sing and the threat of his daughter being murdered, so the multitude of distractions made him perform worse

You can make that argument.  Recant a very loose and unspecific version of the fight.  But when you get into detail, cite examples of when Jacen is distracted and when he's not and then try to assess what the broader circumstances - his daughter in danger, his hatred for the assailant - do for his overall power level, you get a better understanding of where everyone is relative to each other. 


For that last point.  There is one other example of where Alana is in imminent danger - book 7 : Fury -  Luke's flight squad chased Jacen's strar-fighter while his little princess was aboard.  The anger, fear and feeling of helplessness caused dark power to emanate from him like never before.  Waves of power were felt across the Galaxy.  Said emotions tend to amplify dark power and Jacen is an adept of dark power.  So there's no reason why he should be weaker when fighting Aurra.  Similar emotions may hinder Jedi, especially those who routinely hold back their true strength in fear of falling down dark path, such as Luke Skywalker, but there is no reason why this paradigm applies to Jacen. 


Regarding Distractions vs Aurra. There is only one time in the fight where he's properly distracted - When she frees herself from Telepathic domination by turning on the detonator.  After that he grabs the detonator with TK > she attacks > he parries > he flicks the detonator switch > he gets kicked into the air and crashes down onto a table.  By this point... he is consciously  aware of the fight, and can't claim to be truly distracted.  But in generously assuming he is,  the fact that he doesn't recover from the kick immediately and relive himself from a disadvantaged position means something is fishy.  Dooku did that after Anakin kicked him off the Balcony.  May I remind you that Dooku was pretty distressed at that point and nearing exhaustion.  But in generously forgiving Jacen this ordeal, forgetting about comparable examples, it doesn't explain why she can beat down his saber in a lock.  Not without having some form of parity to him anyway.  But even when ignoring  this portion of the exchange, what happens after that is plainly unforgivable.  Upon being kicked with a spiked toe cap,  Jacen, on top all his hatred, draws from that pain and force pushes her to a wall.  She wasn't pulverised.  She wasn't killed.  She wasn't incapped.  No signs of  moderate or minor injury... she also disarmed him in the act.  We can't blame distractions here.  The Detonator was taken care of and Alana was hidden away.  We can't accuse him of toying with her.  Jacen's goal was to kill her as quickly as possible.  We can't say he was operating in a weaker state.  He was plainly amplified by his anger and his pain.  

No excuses. 

Lets say Aurra is a tier 7.  Lets say she's on level with Agen, Fisto, Tinn... not getting stomped by Secura.  Jacen is still no where near a tier 10.  Failing to phase her with amped TK.  No where near above DE sidious.  Where his assessment - if true and not inherently mired with pathological delusion - would have him.  Because dude, even CW Sidious can incap Maul with TK.  Aurra is below that.  Way below that.  So the only logical way to rationalise Jacen's idea of Luke's power against the literal events of the story, is to deem his assessment wrong.    


And this isn't the only marker showing the discrepancy.  


If he's so beyond Sidious, why can't he TK-grip Mara in Sacrifice?  She's weak enough to lose breath after collapsing part of a dusty, short and crumbling tunnel on him.  He's injured... yes.  Not as injured as Malgus was in the Third Lesson, where after having been injured in a prior battle, to the point of cybernetic reconstruction, a Jedi Master brings down two buildings on him with ease, burying him under an avalanche of rubble... yet he blasts the entire thing and kills the Jedi in question handily.  20 years before his prime.   


If he's so beyond Sidious, Why is Kyle a threat to him.  Yes.  A threat. Threatening enough that with a team of three idiots, with Jacen not fully, but almost, recovered from injuries, Kyle can compete.  Wears him down in a lightsaber exchange, causing him break-off the engagement, opting for TK and foul play.  Kyle has no real cross-era credentials - he got lucky against Jerec - and the only thing we can say about his power, is that he might be less of a prodigy than Bane.  BANE.  Not the strongest incarnation of Sidious.  


If he's so beyond Sidious, how are the three,  Mythric, Kolir and Valin Horn, even remotely helpful in fighting Jacen?  Despite being touted as mediocre Knights?  In comparison Sidious takes Mace + B-team in a four on one.  Windu's companions are barely able to percieve him and get one shotted despite the presence of Mace.  But why can the three fighting Jacen percieve him?  Why can they react to him?  Why can they intercept his killing blows?  Why can they tank his kicks without having their heads cleaved, necks broken or suffer a knocking out? 


if he's so beyond Sidious, why can't he influence a control team of technicians with his own power, Instead of channelling the anger of his commanders and still becoming exhausted after the act.  


If he's so beyond Sidious, why does he view Saba as a hard fought duel?  Like i said, in his eyes, he was nearing Luke by Book 2.  In book 6, upon attaining what he believes Sith mastery is, he should be well beyond that point.  yet Saba is a hard fight.  Is Saba on par with Sidious?  She'd need to be on that level to consider Jacen's plight legit, and not blatantly delusional.  


Collirary to this point,  If his assessment of Luke has any weight, girth, length or depth.  Why does he pit 8 YHV droids on the man.  Those who are portrayed on par with average Knights,  and hope that not only will they stall him, but they might actually kill him.  This is despite having seen the GM carve though an army of Elite Vong with ease.....


Collirary to this point, If Luke is such a scaleable character, why does the man suffer a loss against Lumiya in Tempest, and in Sacrifice, struggle against her physically.  Despite injury and lack of will on her part. Her combative mediocracy not withstanding. 


Collirary of this point, If Caedus is so beyond sidious, why does he struggle against a version of Luke bearing the same mindset - distraught in emotion, but wanting to kill.  Yet still loses with the aid of environmental factors.  I mean Luke can stomp Jacen when he's clear of mind - chair pinning scene.  The ease of it.  The control and length of time he was dominated for.  Even Mace scan stifle Sidious' TK surprise by redirecting a push.  May I remind you that he was outside of vaapad when that happened.  Yet Caedus can't budge an inch despite Luke Tk'ing the boy without effort nor gesture.  


As you can see elm, there is entire body of evidence to weigh against Jacen's personal idea of Luke's power.  Jacen being pathologically delusional for some reason, is a small concession when you discover the counter evidence is stacked up.  And it really is small concession when you consider that delusion defines Jacens tenure as a Sith Lord.  It fits thematically.  As George Lucas would say, it rhymes.

mace or either starkiller

Changing my vote to Ziil

I vote for Ziil.