★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

I feel like you’re not approaching this logically. What the real question is, with regards to Sidious vs Mace, is whether or not Mace would have performed as well against Sidious if Sidious had adopted the same tactical approach he did against Yoda? 
Mace just simply isn’t in the same tier as Sidious in Force output and, if there was distance between them, Mace would have been overwhelmed in a minute tops.

Now, Mace definitely holds the saber advantage over Plagueis, no question there. But once you factor in Plagueis’ sheer power and mastery over a technique that if indeed can be weaponised (which I would argue is likely), Mace’s chances of victory are so circumstance-heavy that he would have to Force Plagueis into a melee. Plagueis’ implied superiority to TPM Sheev, who at that point was already close to reaching his natural potential with the Force, coupled with his monstrous showings of TK, as well as mastery over the “ultimate ability” there’s really no room for Mace to make this a victory. Plagueis can hold his own enough in sabers, Mace can’t in Force.

BoD wrote:

The Ellimist wrote:In order to have Revan > Mace Windu, you basically have to argue that supremacy quotes are invalid. That hasn't actually been shown in a coherent way.

Basically this. To argue Revan > Mace, you'd first have to argue Revan is ~/= Vitiate. You'd then have to argue Vitiate is close to ROTS Sidious, and then follow up by arguing how this puts him > Mace. Mace has every other advantage except esoteric abilities, which honestly I don't see being too much of a factor against him considering his accolades and how he's viewed within the Order.

Replace Revan with Plagueis, and Vitiate with post-boost TPM Sidious, and you have my reasoning for thinking Mace > Plagueis as a fighter.

Making this post retrospectively.

CuckedCurry wrote:Mace just simply isn’t in the same tier as RotS Sidious in Force output

And Plagueis is?

I am convinced Plagueis is stronger in the Force than Mace, but not enough for it to matter in combat.

There's no evidence he can destroy an opponent's midi-chlorians in the middle of combat, since the only time he did so was when he had a discussion with Veruna over the course of a few minutes, and Veruna was a) not attacking him and b) far weaker than him (not even Force-sensitive), although I am on the bandwagon of people who like to believe he could.



Mace could probably reflect Plagueis' lightning and definitely outduels him in sabers, so the only advantage Plagueis could have in combat is influencing Mace's midi-chlorians to die, in which case a fight between them depends on how close Mace is (if he's within jumping/dueling distance). Assuming Plagueis can, in fact, do the same thing to anyone that he did to Veruna.

@Geistalt This round has closed. You can argue for Mace over Plagueis in the reshuffle.