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DarthAnt66Moderator
★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu
February 9th 2020, 3:15 pm
Mace Windu has been voted in as the #9 most powerful Star Wars character.
1. Luke Skywalker
2. Palpatine
3. Valkorion
4. Irek Ismaren
5/6. Anakin Skywalker
5/6. Darth Krayt
7. Yoda
8. Darth Plagueis
9. Mace Windu
10. Revan
11. Darish Vol
12. Alliance Commander
13. Vaylin
14. Darth Caedus
15. Kueller
RULES - UPDATE!
The new metric to rank characters will be the extent that Darth Malgus would need an amp to defeat them.
For example, would Darth Malgus (as of the novel Deceived) need a greater boost in raw Force potency—which, for both the purposes of this tournament and within the lore, simply amplifies all abilities proportionate to their former levels—to defeat Yoda or UnuThul? Remember that this tournament aims to rank characters based on their overall combative threat level, NOT their raw Force potency. All characters will operate at their peak actualized iterations barring circumstantial or momentary amps. While everyone will fight in-character—meaning Yoda will not be bloodlusted—they will be aiming to kill Malgus as quickly and efficiently as possible with nothing held back.
If you have not already, please open the spoiler boxes to read the guidelines and banned characters for the tournament.
GUIDELINES
- Spoiler:
- A thread titled "Top Fifteen Tournament #1" will be created. Members can comment on who they believe Darth Malgus would need the greatest amp to defeat, e.g. Luke Skywalker. Members are welcome to debate other members to change votes. After ten days, the votes will be tallied. Members will then choose between the two most voted upon characters. The winner will be ranked as #1 on our list, and "Top Fifteen Tournament #2" will be created now excluding the #1 pick.
BANNED CHARACTERS
- Spoiler:
- The following is a list of characters that will not be included in the tournament. This list may be added to.
- The Father
- The Son
- The Daughter
- Abeloth
- Force Priestesses
- Tilotny
- Horliss-Horliss
- Cold Danda Sine
- Splendid Ap
- Waru
- Wutzek
- Yuuzhan'tar
- Sekot
- Mnggal-Mnggal
- Mother
- Soa
- World Razer
- Sel-Makor
- Darth Nihilus
- Shimrra Jamaane
- Onimi
- UnuThul
- Welk
- Lomi Plo
- Sarasu Taalon
- The Father
The Fallen WarriorLevel Four
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu
February 9th 2020, 3:17 pm
I'm gonna cast my case down for Starkiller
LSDMB
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu
February 9th 2020, 3:18 pm
All good picks so far IMO, I'll see how this pans out.
This isn't a vote from me, but I do think *puts on Kbro voice* Waywin desewves a mention becuz of da qwotes *end Kbro voice*
Seriously as much as she's a shit character she's pretty potent and worth considering. Maybe Skillz would want to rep her idk
This isn't a vote from me, but I do think *puts on Kbro voice* Waywin desewves a mention becuz of da qwotes *end Kbro voice*
Seriously as much as she's a shit character she's pretty potent and worth considering. Maybe Skillz would want to rep her idk
EmperorCaedusLevel Three
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu
February 9th 2020, 3:19 pm
I'll back Caedus for now.
The LostLevel Five
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu
February 9th 2020, 3:24 pm
Yeah gonna go with Mace initially, Malgus would need a much larger amp to get around both Mace's insane saber skill and vaapad loop than he would Revan's muggle precog that Sidious' red guards are masters of. And considering Mace held off Sheev's lightning so capably despite it being beyond Vaapad, meaning a considerably higher amount of power was needed to hold it off than was needed to be a virtually equal duelist to Sheev (something Revan has a snowball's chance in hell of replicating), again, Malgus is going to need a much higher amp to get through Mace's defence with a Force attack than he would Revan, who is locked below Sheev's canonical inferior by a substantial amount (Ziostiate). And there's no getting around that because of how everyone accepts the Malak > Kun quote which ironically isn't worth much because Kun is shit
Ha ha
Ha ha
lorenzo.r.2ndLevel Three
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu
February 9th 2020, 3:27 pm
revan.
BreakofDawnLevel Seven
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu
February 9th 2020, 3:27 pm
I vote for Mace. He has lightsaber skill that's rivalled only by the ROTS titans and surpassed by only a handful of beings. He also has power rivalling that of Sidious and Yoda. I'll make a stronger case if need be over time, but he should scale above Revan and the others mentioned.
The EllimistLevel Five
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu
February 9th 2020, 3:31 pm
In addition to other potential picks, Caedus remains a top one.
When we last left off, there was no counter to the fact that Jacen was astutely aware of Luke's TUF/DN power, to the point of being the one to show Luke how to use more of his true potency in TUF. As of Revelation, Jacen witnessed displays from Luke that he considered to be beyond what he had seen previously. Yet he is absolutely certain that the amped Jaina he fights in Invincible is Luke, even afterwards when the possibility of it being an illusion is brought up to him and he dismisses it by noting how much damage Jaina was able to deal.
There were two attempted counters to the fact that Caedus was able to fight an amped Jaina that was at least at the level of TUF Luke and was even winning:
"Maybe Jacen doesn't think Luke could amp Jaina even to sub-Luke levels from that far away while casting an illusion. - Luke's illusion+amp feat would've only been deemed infeasible by Jacen if he had amped Jaina to ridiculous levels (which he did). Just casting an illusion over someone, even from that distance, is something that Jacen himself could do, and he's seen Luke do far, far more potent illusion feats (e.g. creating an entire illusory fleet). Likewise, just using BM to make someone a tier 8 or so isn't very impressive relative to Luke's abilities at all. The idea that Jacen would refuse to consider the possibility that Luke could...put his face over Jaina and make her a bit stronger is a bit incredulous.
"Maybe Jacen expects Luke to be hindered." - Firstly, he clearly didn't consider Luke to be hindered just a book earlier. Secondly, he was having visions of Luke killing him in revenge and then taking his place as the dark lord, and yet in TUF and DN he thinks Luke's fear of using his raw power comes from a fear of the dark side - when Jacen sees "Luke" in Invincible, his reaction is to note that this time Luke would show no mercy, not "ah well he's hindered!". Thirdly, we see multiple PoV's where Jacen speculates over Luke's power and thinks of ways to fight him, so it would be odd if any mention of his uncle's apparent several-tiers fluctuation in power level coming from being hindered was just conveniently left out of all of his noted thoughts.
I'll address Ziggy's points in the future, but that refutes Ant's rebuttals. There was some extensive sourcing in the previous round that I suppose I could eventually re-transfer here.
When we last left off, there was no counter to the fact that Jacen was astutely aware of Luke's TUF/DN power, to the point of being the one to show Luke how to use more of his true potency in TUF. As of Revelation, Jacen witnessed displays from Luke that he considered to be beyond what he had seen previously. Yet he is absolutely certain that the amped Jaina he fights in Invincible is Luke, even afterwards when the possibility of it being an illusion is brought up to him and he dismisses it by noting how much damage Jaina was able to deal.
There were two attempted counters to the fact that Caedus was able to fight an amped Jaina that was at least at the level of TUF Luke and was even winning:
"Maybe Jacen doesn't think Luke could amp Jaina even to sub-Luke levels from that far away while casting an illusion. - Luke's illusion+amp feat would've only been deemed infeasible by Jacen if he had amped Jaina to ridiculous levels (which he did). Just casting an illusion over someone, even from that distance, is something that Jacen himself could do, and he's seen Luke do far, far more potent illusion feats (e.g. creating an entire illusory fleet). Likewise, just using BM to make someone a tier 8 or so isn't very impressive relative to Luke's abilities at all. The idea that Jacen would refuse to consider the possibility that Luke could...put his face over Jaina and make her a bit stronger is a bit incredulous.
"Maybe Jacen expects Luke to be hindered." - Firstly, he clearly didn't consider Luke to be hindered just a book earlier. Secondly, he was having visions of Luke killing him in revenge and then taking his place as the dark lord, and yet in TUF and DN he thinks Luke's fear of using his raw power comes from a fear of the dark side - when Jacen sees "Luke" in Invincible, his reaction is to note that this time Luke would show no mercy, not "ah well he's hindered!". Thirdly, we see multiple PoV's where Jacen speculates over Luke's power and thinks of ways to fight him, so it would be odd if any mention of his uncle's apparent several-tiers fluctuation in power level coming from being hindered was just conveniently left out of all of his noted thoughts.
I'll address Ziggy's points in the future, but that refutes Ant's rebuttals. There was some extensive sourcing in the previous round that I suppose I could eventually re-transfer here.
_________________
Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
- lorenzo.r.2ndLevel Three
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu
February 9th 2020, 3:42 pm
sorry ant. might go with caedus here mato
Master AzrongerModerator
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu
February 9th 2020, 3:51 pm
Mace Windu. He has Vaapad and can thus operate at the same level he did against Palpatine by drawing on Malgus's rage.
_________________
Wankious
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu
February 9th 2020, 3:52 pm
DarthSkywalker0 wrote:Mace, lol.
CuckedCurryLevel Four
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu
February 9th 2020, 3:54 pm
Mace Windu
SyndiciateLevel One
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu
February 9th 2020, 3:59 pm
Starkiller.
- DarthAnt66Moderator
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu
February 9th 2020, 4:00 pm
If you want to go Caedus, go Vol instead. Stronger comparisons with Luke + is far, far beyond Kyle Katarn (unlike Caedus).
Will be mostly inactive this week but will throw some posts against the Caedus fan fic if I can.
Will be mostly inactive this week but will throw some posts against the Caedus fan fic if I can.
- The EllimistLevel Five
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu
February 9th 2020, 4:05 pm
DarthAnt66 wrote:If you want to go Caedus, go Vol instead. Stronger comparisons with Luke + is far, far beyond Kyle Katarn (unlike Caedus).
Will be mostly inactive this week but will throw some posts against the Caedus fan fic if I can.
Vol is indeed a very strong pick. The case for Caedus's (moderate) parity to TUF Luke is certainly far more explicit than an insane Revan rambling about how he will defeat Vitiate though.
xoltholLevel Five
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu
February 9th 2020, 4:06 pm
I will defend Unchained Vaylin for this place. I will made a case for her in the coming week.
- The EllimistLevel Five
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu
February 9th 2020, 4:13 pm
Copying this from Ant's blog:
Darish Vol was indisputably the most powerful Sith of the Lost Tribe and survived over eight decades of assassination attempts from rivals:
Vestara Khai was shocked to learn any Sith could "replace" Vol, unaware that Abeloth killed him:
Ivaar Workan believed that Vol could kill him with the Force quicker than he could mutter an apology:
Vol also battled Abeloth in a psychic war of wills. Open the spoiler tag to read their full fight.
A summary of the fight was provided in The Essential Reader's Companion:
Abeloth confronted Vol in the "psychic world" intending to destroy him. However, Vol deliberately opened his mind to Abeloth, simultaneously resisting her advances and using mnemotherapy to pinpoint her most vulnerable memories. Vol then slammed his Force self into this mental wound, badly wounding Abeloth -- though he almost died in the process. The resultant anguish prompted Abeloth to unleash a Force scream that obliterated and melted the city of Tahv. Per the highlighted text, note that …
(A) This battle was not just "a simple dream." If Abeloth had killed Vol in the physic world, then he would have also died in the corporal, and the injuries Vol sustained even transferred to his physical body. Moreover, Vol fought Abeloth with his "Force self," and Abeloth partially attributed the feat to Vol's Force power.
(B) Vol, after "wrapping himself" in a Force barrier, "resisted" violent and brutal attacks from Abeloth's tentacles -- which were largely manifestations of raw Force energy -- and "rooted himself" against "a blast of Force anger" from an increasingly furious and desperate Abeloth.
Reflecting on the fight, Abeloth judged that "Vol had much of the power of Skywalker." Note that Abeloth had already fought an all-out Luke Skywalker three times:
Overall, Vol clearly ranks among the most powerful Sith Lords in history, being far more powerful than Workan and radically more powerful than Viun Gaalan (both of whom fought admirably against Luke), performing remarkably against Abeloth, and wielding "much of the power" of Luke himself.
III. GRAND LORD DARISH VOL
Darish Vol was indisputably the most powerful Sith of the Lost Tribe and survived over eight decades of assassination attempts from rivals:
Fate of the Jedi - Omen wrote:Vol was a striking, almost heavy presence in the Force; he was not the Grand Lord without reason. No one on this world was stronger in the Force than he.
Fate of the Jedi - Omen wrote:They wore robes that were similar to the Grand Lord's, but slightly less ornate. Less powerful manipulators of the Force than Vol, they were nonetheless utter masters of it.
Fate of the Jedi - Apocalypse wrote:Workan did not know how Roki Kem had managed to defeat an unmatched Force user such as Grand Lord Vol, and he could hardly ask her.
Fate of the Jedi - Ascension wrote:Lord Darish Vol was no casual observer of others. He had not climbed as high as he had, nor lived as long as he had, without being superior to any who would challenge him. He had lost count of the assassination attempts and political ploys that had been thrown his way over the last eight-plus decades. But he had learned from each one. And so he played the good, benevolent host smoothly while taking stock of all he saw.
Vestara Khai was shocked to learn any Sith could "replace" Vol, unaware that Abeloth killed him:
Fate of the Jedi - Apocalypse wrote:"Grand Lord Vol has been replaced."
"Replaced?" Though Vestara felt not even the slightest inclination to mourn Vol's passing, her surprise was genuine. "Who could do that?"
Ivaar Workan believed that Vol could kill him with the Force quicker than he could mutter an apology:
Fate of the Jedi - Ascension wrote:But if she knew the Sith were here on Coruscant-
No. If something happened and his Master found that Workan had not warned him, Workan would not live long enough to draw breath to apologize. It had to be now.
Vol also battled Abeloth in a psychic war of wills. Open the spoiler tag to read their full fight.
- Spoiler:
- Fate of the Jedi - Ascension wrote:Sleep found him quickly.
And so did something else.
He stood, alone, on the lavender shores of the ocean, lightsaber held in one gnarled hand. The heat was oppressive, the sun beating down on him more strongly than it did even in the height of summer. His robes were heavy, far too heavy, and he became aware immediately that this was much more than a simple dream.
She stood facing him, wearing her lovely Keshiri visage like the mask she had worn tonight. But this time, she was deliberately permitting the mask to slip.
Vol had seen much violence, deceit, ugliness, and brutality in his day. He had seen, and sometimes committed, deeds such as evisceration of the body and torture of the mind through the power of the dark side. He had seen bodies explode into tiny fragments, watched powerfully intelligent people reduced to gibbering idiots when their minds were destroyed thought by thought.
And he shrank back in horror now at the monstrosity revealed to him.
Before him was a nightmare. Her hair was long, twining tendrils of hideousness, her eyes sunken and yet bright as tiny stars, her mouth widening, widening, until it split her face. She laughed, the tendrils reaching out both physically and in the Force.
"Silly Vol," she said. "To imagine, even for a moment, that anything human could even conceive of the vastness that is Abeloth, let alone trap me for your own tiny-minded purposes. Now you shall die, and your world shall become mine. I shall be unto them Protector and Destructor both, and there is nothing that you or any of your little friends can do to stop me."
The tendrils were on him now, slithering into his mouth, his ears, his nose, caressing in a strangely appealing manner even as he cringed back in loathing.
It was a dream, he knew, but it was more than a dream as well. And even in such an in-between place, Vol knew what he had to do. It terrified him, but the thought of being destroyed without a fight by this vile thing terrified him even worse.
He had to dive inside that mind.
He took a precious second to wrap the Force around him like a blanket, then unshielded his mind and opened it to Abeloth.
In her arrogant glee at the ambush she had performed, she was reckless. She surged forward, violating his mind, unaware that this was precisely what Vol wanted. She had given him entrance, and he wasted not a heartbeat in opening up to the ugliness that was within. Like a thief with the law on his heels, Vol plundered swiftly, with no care for delicacy or of discovery. And he found unexpected riches.
Anguish. Loss that ripped and tore at the heart of all that was Abeloth. Betrayal. Need-need!-for companionship, for love, for someone, anyone, anything, to adore her and to never, ever leave. To stay with her forever ...
-Don't leave me don't leave me don't leave me-
Something that was part of her, that she had loved with all that was in her, was gone, gone beyond finding again, and someone would pay, and she would be loved and idolized and worshipped, it was right, it was what should be, what would be-
He felt her astonishment, and then fury, and knew he was discovered. The tendrils were no longer coyly teasing and caressing. They were violent and brutal now, wrapping about his throat, invading his body. He resisted and went on the attack. There was a wound, visible as something black and bloody and infected, in what passed for a soul or a heart of this monster. And he went right for it.
No one loves you. You are ugly, and disgusting, and if you ever thought anyone did care for you, you were tricked and lied to, and they laughed at your gullibility.
A blast of Force anger buffeted him, but he rooted himself against it and continued.
You will never be loved. You will never be adored or cherished. Only feared and hated. And there is nothing you can do, no words you can speak, no one you can become to change that. Luke Skywalker was appalled at what you were, when he truly saw you. He follows you, not as a young gallant, oh no, but to kill you and put the universe out of its misery.
She convulsed, writhing in pain in the heart of the Force, reacting to his relentless attack on her wounded area as if he were ripping at an infected cut in the physical world. Her attack on him changed from a desire to harm to a desire to escape. Elation filled Vol. He only hoped he could survive long enough to deal the killing blow.
You live causing revulsion, you will die that way. You will die now-
He threw everything he had into the attack, slamming his Force self into the psychic, oozing wound as if he were punching a lacerated torso.
NO!
Her pain exploded and hurled him back, releasing him, but causing the most exquisite agony Vol had ever experienced to race through every part of his being.
Vol surged forward out of the dream so quickly that he hurled himself from his bed and landed hard on the floor, where he lay gasping, weak, so weak, sweat-soaked and terrified. He-used to manipulating objects in the Force, leaping great distances, crushing things with a thought-had not the strength of a new-hatched uvak. It was an effort to lift his head, to push himself up off the floor, and the muscles quivered from that simple strain.
Grunting, he dragged himself to a seated position, muscles trembling. It would have to do-rising, let alone walking, would take several more minutes. He summoned his last drop of energy and sent forth an urgent demand to Revar, the young Sith Saber who attended him. Four seconds later Revar burst into the room, lightsaber illuminating the darkness and the younger man's worried face with an eerie red glow.
"My lord," Revar cried, lighting the room with a gesture at the same time he deactivated the weapon, "what happened?" He rushed and eased the old man up onto the bed.
Vol opened his mouth, but could not speak. Finally, he rasped, "Abeloth ..."
"She was here?"
Vol shook his head. "No. In ... dream ..." He knew that he sounded senile, but he also knew that there were marks on his body that Revar and others could see. "My ship-take me to my ship. And awaken the Lords," he said, alarmed at how feeble he sounded. "And the defenses-the city ... she is going to ... to make the city pay ..."
Revar wasted no more time on questions. Using the Force, he lifted his Master as gently as possible, then, holding on to him, Revar raced, with Force-augmented speed, toward the hangar atop Vol's estate. There was always a small personal vessel at the ready; one never knew when the Grand Lord might wish to depart on short notice.
As they fled, Vol began to weep. Revar was disconcerted, but not so much that he did not pay close attention to the mumbled words.
"Nothing can hold her ... Fool to think I could use her ... What is she?... Mistake ... By the dark, the greatest mistake I have ever made ..."
---
Abeloth had been wandering the City of Glass when she had attacked Vol. She had been enjoying the calmness and prettiness of the place illuminated by the fireglobes, and had been idly thinking about what she might do with it once it came under her control. Should she make this her base, from which to rule the galaxy? It was quaint and charming. Or should she give it to those who had served her well, as a reward?
Too, the attack on Grand Lord Vol had been in her mind the moment Ship had begun to head for Kesh. She had wanted to strike here on this world, from the center of this place of which he was so proud; to show Vol and the others that nothing they held as precious was safe from her. She knew he was a powerful Force-user and strong with the dark side. And that, she could have handled.
But he had tricked her, had used a technique that his antithesis had used on her not so long before. He had learned the uprooting technique of the Theran Listeners, as had the despised Skywalker, and used it with even less care than that Jedi had.
He had-
Abeloth screamed from a mouth that slashed her face in two. Unable to retain her form, unable even to notice that she had not retained her form, she thrashed and howled as tentacles erupted from her torso and her face shifted like melting wax. Her anguish used the Force as a weapon, as she had so often before, but this time she was barely aware that she was releasing nearly it.
---
Abeloth sat huddled in Ship's interior. She had not revealed to Khai or anyone just how badly wounded she had been by the attack on Kesh. Vol had much of the power of Skywalker, combined with experience, and it had been a devastating encounter.
She had harmed him, too, though. Almost killed him. And she had destroyed his precious city, unleashing her outrage and fury on the site of her shame.
A summary of the fight was provided in The Essential Reader's Companion:
The Essential Reader's Companion wrote:As he sleeps that night, Vol is visited by Abeloth in his dreams. She attacks the Grand Lord in this state, but he fights back with his keen mind. He is able to peer past Abeloth’s illusions and see her as a painfully lonely being desperate to be loved. Frustrated with Vol’s tenacity, Abeloth reacts by blasting a Force shock wave that devastates the city of Tahv. Millions of citizens die in the disaster—among them Vestara Khai’s mother, Lahka—though Vol survives.
Abeloth confronted Vol in the "psychic world" intending to destroy him. However, Vol deliberately opened his mind to Abeloth, simultaneously resisting her advances and using mnemotherapy to pinpoint her most vulnerable memories. Vol then slammed his Force self into this mental wound, badly wounding Abeloth -- though he almost died in the process. The resultant anguish prompted Abeloth to unleash a Force scream that obliterated and melted the city of Tahv. Per the highlighted text, note that …
(A) This battle was not just "a simple dream." If Abeloth had killed Vol in the physic world, then he would have also died in the corporal, and the injuries Vol sustained even transferred to his physical body. Moreover, Vol fought Abeloth with his "Force self," and Abeloth partially attributed the feat to Vol's Force power.
(B) Vol, after "wrapping himself" in a Force barrier, "resisted" violent and brutal attacks from Abeloth's tentacles -- which were largely manifestations of raw Force energy -- and "rooted himself" against "a blast of Force anger" from an increasingly furious and desperate Abeloth.
Reflecting on the fight, Abeloth judged that "Vol had much of the power of Skywalker." Note that Abeloth had already fought an all-out Luke Skywalker three times:
Fate of the Jedi - Ascension wrote:Abeloth sat huddled in Ship's interior. She had not revealed to Khai or anyone just how badly wounded she had been by the attack on Kesh. Vol had much of the power of Skywalker, combined with experience, and it had been a devastating encounter.
Overall, Vol clearly ranks among the most powerful Sith Lords in history, being far more powerful than Workan and radically more powerful than Viun Gaalan (both of whom fought admirably against Luke), performing remarkably against Abeloth, and wielding "much of the power" of Luke himself.
- The EllimistLevel Five
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu
February 9th 2020, 4:19 pm
BTW, it should be noted that in the fight between pre-prime Jacen and Kyle + 3 knights in Fury:
^ would have ended in a little over 10 seconds (several sentences and events later it's at 15 seconds).
Ten seconds.
Caedus rolled out of Katarn's kick to his head, catching a scrape along his cheek, and swung at the Master's leg, but Kolir's blade intercepted his before it bit into flesh. His strength batted her weapon away, but she had deflected his blow and spared Katarn an amputation.
They're coordinating. Good for them. Bad for me.
^ would have ended in a little over 10 seconds (several sentences and events later it's at 15 seconds).
_________________
Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
Ziggy
Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu
February 9th 2020, 4:22 pm
The Ellimist wrote:In addition to other potential picks, Caedus remains a top one.
When we last left off, there was no counter to the fact that Jacen was astutely aware of Luke's TUF/DN power, to the point of being the one to show Luke how to use more of his true potency in TUF. As of Revelation, Jacen witnessed displays from Luke that he considered to be beyond what he had seen previously. Yet he is absolutely certain that the amped Jaina he fights in Invincible is Luke, even afterwards when the possibility of it being an illusion is brought up to him and he dismisses it by noting how much damage Jaina was able to deal.
There were two attempted counters to the fact that Caedus was able to fight an amped Jaina that was at least at the level of TUF Luke and was even winning:
"Maybe Jacen doesn't think Luke could amp Jaina even to sub-Luke levels from that far away while casting an illusion. - Luke's illusion+amp feat would've only been deemed infeasible by Jacen if he had amped Jaina to ridiculous levels (which he did). Just casting an illusion over someone, even from that distance, is something that Jacen himself could do, and he's seen Luke do far, far more potent illusion feats (e.g. creating an entire illusory fleet). Likewise, just using BM to make someone a tier 8 or so isn't very impressive relative to Luke's abilities at all. The idea that Jacen would refuse to consider the possibility that Luke could...put his face over Jaina and make her a bit stronger is a bit incredulous.
"Maybe Jacen expects Luke to be hindered." - Firstly, he clearly didn't consider Luke to be hindered just a book earlier. Secondly, he was having visions of Luke killing him in revenge and then taking his place as the dark lord, and yet in TUF and DN he thinks Luke's fear of using his raw power comes from a fear of the dark side - when Jacen sees "Luke" in Invincible, his reaction is to note that this time Luke would show no mercy, not "ah well he's hindered!". Thirdly, we see multiple PoV's where Jacen speculates over Luke's power and thinks of ways to fight him, so it would be odd if any mention of his uncle's apparent several-tiers fluctuation in power level coming from being hindered was just conveniently left out of all of his noted thoughts.
I'll address Ziggy's points in the future, but that refutes Ant's rebuttals. There was some extensive sourcing in the previous round that I suppose I could eventually re-transfer here.
Then I will say this don't have to point out why the discrepancy exists.
But I can show that there is a discrepancy
Not just in what Jacen thinks of Luke, but also how he performs compared to pior incarnations.
It's the same reason why my low opinion of Shimmra wasn't really valid, and could be dismissed quite easily. I couldn't come to terms with how he was so formidable, being blind to the Force and all, despite the fact he was...
It's the same reason why astrologists gaze up into the heavens and can't truly explain why the Galaxies are moving a part at an accelerated rate, despite the fact they are...
Addendum - if there is a big enough big enough discrepancy in what Jacen thinks of Luke, the Jacen reaction scaling becomes less valid. And conceding his other feats, you can go as low as extrapolating him to the tier 7 level. But holistically speaking, in the same way Kun was to Vitiate. Caedus was merely a lighting rod to draw attention from what Krayt was concocting on Korriban.
In my opinion, Caedus doesn't belong in the tourney
And currently this match is Mace or Revans
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