Revan vs Darth Maul

ILS wrote:

mr dinky wrote:even if maul has superior combat skills it doesnt mean he is superior in the force which is ultimately what matters exar kun has superior feats to maul by far and revan scales above him its not that hard to grasp really

Do you think lightsaber combat is primarily decided by Force power, or some other attribute?

Anger and hatred welled up in Maul, and he drew renewed strength from the dark side. Hurling himself at Darth Sidious, he nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all. Eventually Maul spent his fury, and Darth Sidious still stood. Maul prepared himself for death-but Sidious only laughed. By giving in to his rage and hatred to kill his own master-by wanting to kill his own master-Maul had in fact passed the final test. Now he was a Sith Lord-Darth Maul, Dark Lord of the Sith.
―Dark Side Sourcebook

The rage rockets within me, pumping energy into my muscles. I can do anything. I can kill my Master. I want to kill him. My hatred is so huge it blots everything else but my desire for his blood.


With a howl torn from the depths of my belly, I spring at him. He barely misses the first blow from my lightsaber, for even in my rage I have employed strategy, coming at him from below, hoping to rip him in two.


He parries my next blow. Sweat stings my eyes as I move across the rough cave floor. I do not stumble. I am nothing but the pulse of my anger, pure energy, pure darkness. I streak across the cave floor and come at him again, somersaulting through the air. My lightsaber whirls in the darkness. When he parries the blow, he staggers.


I am going to kill him. Every beat of my blood exults in my power. Every blow I deliver is meant to be the killing blow. I use reserves of strength I did not know I had. My blows are sure and precise, my footwork flawless. I gather in the power of the dark side. I feel my power clash with his. The air is thick, charged with our dark, titanic powers.


He parries every blow. But I see that he has to work hard to keep me at bay. Triumph roars through me at my Master's weakness. He is not as powerful as he appears.


"You want to kill me?" he taunts. "You want to kill your Master?"


"Yes, " I grunt.


"You hate me?"


"Yes!" I scream out the word through gritted teeth.


But I have been weakened by my ordeal, and my Master maneuvers me against the cave wall. I am gasping, trying to suck in enough air to keep going. My vision blurs as Lord Sidious raises his lightsaber. I parry the blow, but my lightsaber suddenly flies out of my hand, torn by the power of my Master directing the dark side. I realize then that he has just begun to tap into his own reserves. Mine are played out.


I will not be able to deflect the next blow.
―Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Maul sprang at Sidious. Sidious barely missed the first blow from Maul's lightsaber, an upward swing that aimed to rip Sidious in half. Maul swung again but Sidious deflected the blow and retreated. As Maul moved across the rough cave floor, sweat stung his eyes, but he did not stumble. He somersaulted through the air, his lightsaber whirling in the darkness. Sidious raised his lightsaber to parry the next blow, which was so powerful it made him stagger backward. As Maul struck again, he thought, I'm going to kill him.


Sidious parried every blow, but Maul could tell his Master was working hard to keep him at bay.
--The Wrath of Darth Maul

HellfireUnit wrote:Bollocks brother. Respectfully bollocks.

ILS wrote:I agree with both @mr dinky and @ig regarding high tier lightsaber combat being almost entirely related to Force power. With that being the case:

Anger and hatred welled up in Maul, and he drew renewed strength from the dark side. Hurling himself at Darth Sidious, he nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all. Eventually Maul spent his fury, and Darth Sidious still stood. Maul prepared himself for death-but Sidious only laughed. By giving in to his rage and hatred to kill his own master-by wanting to kill his own master-Maul had in fact passed the final test. Now he was a Sith Lord-Darth Maul, Dark Lord of the Sith.
―Dark Side Sourcebook

The rage rockets within me, pumping energy into my muscles. I can do anything. I can kill my Master. I want to kill him. My hatred is so huge it blots everything else but my desire for his blood.


With a howl torn from the depths of my belly, I spring at him. He barely misses the first blow from my lightsaber, for even in my rage I have employed strategy, coming at him from below, hoping to rip him in two.


He parries my next blow. Sweat stings my eyes as I move across the rough cave floor. I do not stumble. I am nothing but the pulse of my anger, pure energy, pure darkness. I streak across the cave floor and come at him again, somersaulting through the air. My lightsaber whirls in the darkness. When he parries the blow, he staggers.


I am going to kill him. Every beat of my blood exults in my power. Every blow I deliver is meant to be the killing blow. I use reserves of strength I did not know I had. My blows are sure and precise, my footwork flawless. I gather in the power of the dark side. I feel my power clash with his. The air is thick, charged with our dark, titanic powers.


He parries every blow. But I see that he has to work hard to keep me at bay. Triumph roars through me at my Master's weakness. He is not as powerful as he appears.


"You want to kill me?" he taunts. "You want to kill your Master?"


"Yes, " I grunt.


"You hate me?"


"Yes!" I scream out the word through gritted teeth.


But I have been weakened by my ordeal, and my Master maneuvers me against the cave wall. I am gasping, trying to suck in enough air to keep going. My vision blurs as Lord Sidious raises his lightsaber. I parry the blow, but my lightsaber suddenly flies out of my hand, torn by the power of my Master directing the dark side. I realize then that he has just begun to tap into his own reserves. Mine are played out.


I will not be able to deflect the next blow.
―Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Maul sprang at Sidious. Sidious barely missed the first blow from Maul's lightsaber, an upward swing that aimed to rip Sidious in half. Maul swung again but Sidious deflected the blow and retreated. As Maul moved across the rough cave floor, sweat stung his eyes, but he did not stumble. He somersaulted through the air, his lightsaber whirling in the darkness. Sidious raised his lightsaber to parry the next blow, which was so powerful it made him stagger backward. As Maul struck again, he thought, I'm going to kill him.


Sidious parried every blow, but Maul could tell his Master was working hard to keep him at bay.
--The Wrath of Darth Maul

So with that being said, I don't see how KoToR Revan wins this. Maul's augmentation from his own feats, as well as direct scaling from late Banite Sith, is above anything Revan has shown by this point in time. Maul was an emaciated, hallucinating, sleep deprived 17 y/o with an infected blaster wound in the above feat, which is the only reason given for why the fight stopped. His standard fighting level grew more powerful than the state he was in there by the time he was 22.

and he gets bested by kenobi in tpm

comparing to darth vitiate and resisting his lightning

something that maul has never been able to do and gets bested many times by his eras reigning sith lord darth sidious

BoD wrote:Backing Maul. Revan is noticeably more powerful but not by enough that he could quickly overwhelm Maul before Maul drives his saber through his guts.

If not Force power, what attribute is Maul more proficient in that would allow him to gut Revan in spite of a noticeable power difference?

BoD wrote:

[size=43]If not Force power, what attribute is Maul more proficient in that would allow him to gut Revan [/size][size=43]in spite of[/size][size=43] a noticeable power difference?[/size]

Saber skill, physicals, and more tactical thinking in a combat situation.

Tondemonai wrote:Revan develops an evil but brilliant plan: Using the dark power of Malachor V, he will seduce an army of Jedi, completely loyal to him alone. He will then turn the planet's evil power against the Mandalorian army in battle, luring them to his stronghold and destroying them completely . . . Revan is able to draw upon the dark side energies of the planet below and use it during the battle, destroying the Mandalore and ending the Mandalorian threat.

Source: Chronicles of the Old Republic

Source: Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords wrote:Revan used the Trayus Academy to influence the battle above Malachor V, using its power to affect the tide of battle and corrupt others to the Sith.

"As with all the weapons of the Architects, the Star Forge proved a thing of great evil. A vast orbital shipyard that created machines of war, it drew energy not only from the local sun but the midichlorians of the Rakata, an idea first put to use by the Varlian Empire. The Star Forge proved deeply corrupting to them, and not long after its completion, the Rakata were overtaken by psychosis as its vile engines drained hungrily from them."


-Supernatural Encounters

Fair point. Maul hasn't really demonstrated a feat of similar fashion before so it's difficult to draw a direct comparison between feats, but the closest I could conceivably get to that is comparing a feat of Maul directly impacting another Force user with his own power (given a Force user's connection to the Force is much like a planet's nexus, and is in essence a personal nexus in the Force but is rarely equated as such since it's rare for a Force user's connection to be so potent as to be compared to a planetary or otherwise nexus in the Force), his best demonstration of which is likely his various opportune telekinetic attacks on Kenobi. Not the most direct comparison but there's not much else to compare it to, but if we accept that as correlative, it should scale Revan above Maul as I wouldn't consider Kenobi as having strength comparable to the nexus of Malachor V. Quote for Maul pressuring Sheev?

Tondemonai wrote:

Azronger wrote:

Tondemonai wrote:The entire description is explicit in stating he is far more powerful than them, it is vague in the reason he has so much power but not in the fact that he HAS the power. You’re grasping st straws to discredit a statement an authority on the matter has explicitly stated is valid & should be taken as official. At best you’re trying to argue other sources contradict it (despite an author confirming it’s legit), and at worst you’re ignoring official source material (a logical fallacy on your part). Concede & move on, you have no argument.

If I gave you a source saying TPM Maul > Vitiate, would you accept it just as readily?

No, because Vitiate has accolades, feats, & scaling that absolutely outstrip all of Maul's own. I was vehemently against accepting this quote for Malak >>Kun until analyzing some of his feats & scaling, as well as Revan's own, and even then I was hesitant until Cory endorsed it via twitter. His power being so vast that Bastila felt his approach from across the galaxy, dominating the SF, outright breaking Vitiate's influence on his mind unassisted (an unprecedented feat on Revan & Malak's part), and scaling above Darth Revan who has some  insane feats like implanting an entire language in the minds of thousands of Rakata, and of course the Malachor V feat. I didn't accept this statement readily at all, but it simply fits with continuity.

IG (Exists) wrote:KOTOR Revan curbstomps this round lmao. His scaling from Kun and the SF are far beyond Maul.

Azronger wrote:

IG (Exists) wrote:KOTOR Revan curbstomps this round lmao. His scaling from Kun and the SF are far beyond Maul.

Why?

ILS wrote:I agree with both @mr dinky and @ig regarding high tier lightsaber combat being almost entirely related to Force power. With that being the case:

Anger and hatred welled up in Maul, and he drew renewed strength from the dark side. Hurling himself at Darth Sidious, he nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all. Eventually Maul spent his fury, and Darth Sidious still stood. Maul prepared himself for death-but Sidious only laughed. By giving in to his rage and hatred to kill his own master-by wanting to kill his own master-Maul had in fact passed the final test. Now he was a Sith Lord-Darth Maul, Dark Lord of the Sith.
―Dark Side Sourcebook

The rage rockets within me, pumping energy into my muscles. I can do anything. I can kill my Master. I want to kill him. My hatred is so huge it blots everything else but my desire for his blood.


With a howl torn from the depths of my belly, I spring at him. He barely misses the first blow from my lightsaber, for even in my rage I have employed strategy, coming at him from below, hoping to rip him in two.


He parries my next blow. Sweat stings my eyes as I move across the rough cave floor. I do not stumble. I am nothing but the pulse of my anger, pure energy, pure darkness. I streak across the cave floor and come at him again, somersaulting through the air. My lightsaber whirls in the darkness. When he parries the blow, he staggers.


I am going to kill him. Every beat of my blood exults in my power. Every blow I deliver is meant to be the killing blow. I use reserves of strength I did not know I had. My blows are sure and precise, my footwork flawless. I gather in the power of the dark side. I feel my power clash with his. The air is thick, charged with our dark, titanic powers.


He parries every blow. But I see that he has to work hard to keep me at bay. Triumph roars through me at my Master's weakness. He is not as powerful as he appears.


"You want to kill me?" he taunts. "You want to kill your Master?"


"Yes, " I grunt.


"You hate me?"


"Yes!" I scream out the word through gritted teeth.


But I have been weakened by my ordeal, and my Master maneuvers me against the cave wall. I am gasping, trying to suck in enough air to keep going. My vision blurs as Lord Sidious raises his lightsaber. I parry the blow, but my lightsaber suddenly flies out of my hand, torn by the power of my Master directing the dark side. I realize then that he has just begun to tap into his own reserves. Mine are played out.


I will not be able to deflect the next blow.
―Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Maul sprang at Sidious. Sidious barely missed the first blow from Maul's lightsaber, an upward swing that aimed to rip Sidious in half. Maul swung again but Sidious deflected the blow and retreated. As Maul moved across the rough cave floor, sweat stung his eyes, but he did not stumble. He somersaulted through the air, his lightsaber whirling in the darkness. Sidious raised his lightsaber to parry the next blow, which was so powerful it made him stagger backward. As Maul struck again, he thought, I'm going to kill him.


Sidious parried every blow, but Maul could tell his Master was working hard to keep him at bay. 
--The Wrath of Darth Maul

So with that being said, I don't see how KoToR Revan wins this. Maul's augmentation from his own feats, as well as direct scaling from late Banite Sith, is above anything Revan has shown by this point in time. Maul was an emaciated, hallucinating, sleep deprived 17 y/o with an infected blaster wound in the above feat, which is the only reason given for why the fight stopped. His standard fighting level grew more powerful than the state he was in there by the time he was 22.

IG (Exists) wrote:

Azronger wrote:

IG (Exists) wrote:KOTOR Revan curbstomps this round lmao. His scaling from Kun and the SF are far beyond Maul.

Why?

Because as of TPM, Maul has shown jackshit on the level of Malak or even Kun. As you've told tondemonai above, however, our methodologies differ, so there's no point in actually debating this because we'd end up "squabbling" over it.