Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

December 20th 2019, 6:43 am

Tondemonai wrote:Revan ragdolls. Mando War Revan would be a much closer fight, albeit being solidly in Revan’s favor. While Maul should hold an advantage in combative skill between his mastery of Teras Kasi & superior skill accolades, he shouldn’t be massively superior. Revan had so thoroughly learned everything the Jedi of his era has to offer that he had nothing left to learn, this including lightsaber techniques & such, he can at least compete in a melee. Beyond that Maul is entirely outshone, Revan manipulates the entire planetary nexus of Malachor V (among the strongest DS nexus’ in the galaxy) to influence the battle above during the final confrontation of the war, while simultaneously corrupting Jedi under his command to the Dark Side even as the battle raged. Maul hasn’t demonstrated an expression of the Force on this scale in any capacity, and doesn’t scale to anyone who has. Even if the argument can be made that Maul is a peer or superior of MW Revan, Malak’s scaling sits him well above Maul, from his being stated “far” more powerful than Exar Kun to his Starforge scaling, which consists of the Exiles being driven mad by the power of the Korriban Star Map & the entire Rakata species being drained of their midichlorians by the Star Forge while Malak dominated it so completely that he developed a symbiotic relationship with it which allowed the Forge to operate at greater capacity than normal & him gaining immense power from the Forge itself. Prodigals Knight Revan is well above Malak, there’s no argument for Maul winning a single round out of ten as far as I’m concerned.

The issue is that you haven't established a comparison between those feats and any of Maul's. You just assume manipulating a planetary nexus (proof for that btw), scaling above Malak and Kun (also proof for the Star Forge draining the Rakata's midi-chlorians, plz) is superior to being able to collapse a giant barracks, pressuring 37 BBY Sidious, etc., greatly pre-prime. But why?

December 20th 2019, 6:46 am

Tondemonai wrote:The entire description is explicit in stating he is far more powerful than them, it is vague in the reason he has so much power but not in the fact that he HAS the power. You’re grasping st straws to discredit a statement an authority on the matter has explicitly stated is valid & should be taken as official. At best you’re trying to argue other sources contradict it (despite an author confirming it’s legit), and at worst you’re ignoring official source material (a logical fallacy on your part). Concede & move on, you have no argument.

If I gave you a source saying TPM Maul > Vitiate, would you accept it just as readily?

December 20th 2019, 6:56 am

@Azronger: Most people that defend Tor follow Ant’s shedding limitations. And I’m not too convinced that we can (or should) use DK for legends debates because the books seem to describe Lucas’ SW rather than any legends stuff. For example, iirc they stated that the Sith began 2000 years ago (before the PT).

December 20th 2019, 7:03 am

IdrisianGraecus wrote:@Azronger: Most people that defend Tor follow Ant’s shedding limitations.

Tondemonai can answer the question himself. Let's not assume his methodology.

And I’m not too convinced that we can (or should) use DK for legends debates because the books seem to describe Lucas’ SW rather than any legends stuff. For example, iirc they stated that the Sith began 2000 years ago (before the PT).

Everything prior to the split is Legends. If they make erroneous claims about the lore, then those claims are simply not considered. Everything else is fair game.

Mysteries of the Jedi does mention the New Republic era after RotJ, btw, so that's Legends content referenced right there.

December 20th 2019, 7:49 pm

IdrisianGraecus wrote:@Azronger: Most people that defend Tor follow Ant’s shedding limitations. And I’m not too convinced that we can (or should) use DK for legends debates because the books seem to describe Lucas’ SW rather than any legends stuff. For example, iirc they stated that the Sith began 2000 years ago (before the PT).

Exactly, dead on-point. To that book, SWTOR and the rest doesn't even exist. It'd be disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

December 21st 2019, 1:24 am

SWTOR doesn’t exist simply because it wasn’t at the time. KOTOR 1 and 2 fall under DK statements.

December 21st 2019, 7:27 am

AP was referring to the Tor era as a whole, EC.

December 21st 2019, 10:20 am

Well, it does sadly.

December 22nd 2019, 3:10 pm

Except the much more canonically demonstratable per the actual KotOR source material goes like this:

Kun > Ragnos > Nadd > Nihilus >> Traya ~ Malak >> Jedi Exiles.

Cory Herndon stated the following:

1.The quote is no longer valid because it was removed and whatever is stated in LFL reviewed material now is correct:

2.That the quote is liable to be replaced by any hard stats made in the RPGs since then:

@HernCo, Twitter wrote:If there exist hard, LFL-approved stats that say otherwise about Kun and Malak, follow those.

Link: https://twitter.com/HernCo/status/1029468543832608768?s=20

In case you were wondering, the KotOR:CG Saga Edition has Kun above Malak in Destiny Point and Sith stats:

KotOR: Campaign Guide wrote:
Darth Malak, Sith Magnus Statistics (CL 20)

Medium Human Jedi 7/Jedi Knight 5/Sith Apprentice 4/Sith Lord 4

Destiny Points: 2; Force Points: 8; Dark Side Score: 15

KotOR: Campaign Guide wrote:
Exar Kun, Dark Lord of the Sith Statistics (CL 20)

Medium Human Jedi 7/Jedi Knight 3/Sith Apprentice 5/Sith Lord 5

Destiny Points: 3; Force Points: 8; Dark Side Score: 15

At best those stats indicate Kun & Malak are rough peers based on the lack of notable disparity between the two indicated above, considering his Jedi points are two above Kun's & nearly make up for the disparity in stats. The one destiny point Kun has over Malak is irrelevant since it doesn't apply to the character's strength as far as I understand. The argument could be made based on this that they're rough equals, which I'm happy to concede as it still fits continuity well enough & is in contrast with the stance you present, but per Leland Che we are to treat stats secondary to direct quotes & statements iirc, meaning this likely can't retcon the Malak >> Kun & Nadd statement via being a lower-tier of canon (could be wrong abt that admittedly).

*edited

December 22nd 2019, 4:20 pm

Azronger wrote:

Tondemonai wrote:Revan ragdolls. Mando War Revan would be a much closer fight, albeit being solidly in Revan’s favor. While Maul should hold an advantage in combative skill between his mastery of Teras Kasi & superior skill accolades, he shouldn’t be massively superior. Revan had so thoroughly learned everything the Jedi of his era has to offer that he had nothing left to learn, this including lightsaber techniques & such, he can at least compete in a melee. Beyond that Maul is entirely outshone, Revan manipulates the entire planetary nexus of Malachor V (among the strongest DS nexus’ in the galaxy) to influence the battle above during the final confrontation of the war, while simultaneously corrupting Jedi under his command to the Dark Side even as the battle raged. Maul hasn’t demonstrated an expression of the Force on this scale in any capacity, and doesn’t scale to anyone who has. Even if the argument can be made that Maul is a peer or superior of MW Revan, Malak’s scaling sits him well above Maul, from his being stated “far” more powerful than Exar Kun to his Starforge scaling, which consists of the Exiles being driven mad by the power of the Korriban Star Map & the entire Rakata species being drained of their midichlorians by the Star Forge while Malak dominated it so completely that he developed a symbiotic relationship with it which allowed the Forge to operate at greater capacity than normal & him gaining immense power from the Forge itself. Prodigals Knight Revan is well above Malak, there’s no argument for Maul winning a single round out of ten as far as I’m concerned.

The issue is that you haven't established a comparison between those feats and any of Maul's. You just assume manipulating a planetary nexus (proof for that btw), scaling above Malak and Kun (also proof for the Star Forge draining the Rakata's midi-chlorians, plz) is superior to being able to collapse a giant barracks, pressuring 37 BBY Sidious, etc., greatly pre-prime. But why?

Revan develops an evil but brilliant plan: Using the dark power of Malachor V, he will seduce an army of Jedi, completely loyal to him alone. He will then turn the planet's evil power against the Mandalorian army in battle, luring them to his stronghold and destroying them completely . . . Revan is able to draw upon the dark side energies of the planet below and use it during the battle, destroying the Mandalore and ending the Mandalorian threat.

Source: Chronicles of the Old Republic

Source: Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords wrote:Revan used the Trayus Academy to influence the battle above Malachor V, using its power to affect the tide of battle and corrupt others to the Sith.

"As with all the weapons of the Architects, the Star Forge proved a thing of great evil. A vast orbital shipyard that created machines of war, it drew energy not only from the local sun but the midichlorians of the Rakata, an idea first put to use by the Varlian Empire. The Star Forge proved deeply corrupting to them, and not long after its completion, the Rakata were overtaken by psychosis as its vile engines drained hungrily from them."

-Supernatural Encounters

Fair point. Maul hasn't really demonstrated a feat of similar fashion before so it's difficult to draw a direct comparison between feats, but the closest I could conceivably get to that is comparing a feat of Maul directly impacting another Force user with his own power (given a Force user's connection to the Force is much like a planet's nexus, and is in essence a personal nexus in the Force but is rarely equated as such since it's rare for a Force user's connection to be so potent as to be compared to a planetary or otherwise nexus in the Force), his best demonstration of which is likely his various opportune telekinetic attacks on Kenobi. Not the most direct comparison but there's not much else to compare it to, but if we accept that as correlative, it should scale Revan above Maul as I wouldn't consider Kenobi as having strength comparable to the nexus of Malachor V. Quote for Maul pressuring Sheev?

December 22nd 2019, 4:39 pm

Azronger wrote:

Tondemonai wrote:The entire description is explicit in stating he is far more powerful than them, it is vague in the reason he has so much power but not in the fact that he HAS the power. You’re grasping st straws to discredit a statement an authority on the matter has explicitly stated is valid & should be taken as official. At best you’re trying to argue other sources contradict it (despite an author confirming it’s legit), and at worst you’re ignoring official source material (a logical fallacy on your part). Concede & move on, you have no argument.

If I gave you a source saying TPM Maul > Vitiate, would you accept it just as readily?

No, because Vitiate has accolades, feats, & scaling that absolutely outstrip all of Maul's own. I was vehemently against accepting this quote for Malak >>Kun until analyzing some of his feats & scaling, as well as Revan's own, and even then I was hesitant until Cory endorsed it via twitter. His power being so vast that Bastila felt his approach from across the galaxy, dominating the SF, outright breaking Vitiate's influence on his mind unassisted (an unprecedented feat on Revan & Malak's part), and scaling above Darth Revan who has some insane feats like implanting an entire language in the minds of thousands of Rakata, and of course the Malachor V feat. I didn't accept this statement readily at all, but it simply fits with continuity.

December 22nd 2019, 4:52 pm

Pretty poor sentence structure & elloquency on my part but whatever, I can't do any better with my brain as it is today lol.

January 12th 2020, 10:14 am

revan wins

January 12th 2020, 10:21 am

This isn’t a fight, lmao.This thread is probably the dumbest since Sors Bandeam vs Sidious

January 12th 2020, 10:57 am

Maul wins. KOTOR Revan isn't anything special. His Force Mastery won't carry him to the victory and I doubt KOTOR Revan was deploying DS powers.

January 12th 2020, 10:58 am

We need an @ILS on this thread

January 12th 2020, 11:06 am

I'm more impressed with Maul's showing against 37bby Sheev (and the subsequent scaling), and overall edge in dueling credentials/physical prowess, or at least, they seem like more important edges to bring to the fight. But Revan shouldn't be discounted either thanks to the SF feat and scaling from humiliating Malak.

January 12th 2020, 11:16 am

revan scales above exar kun and all his showings, they are WAY better then anything maul has been able to do

January 12th 2020, 11:18 am

Sidious barely rapped into his force reserves. That’s like pressing .01% Elm or Ant in a debate. They’re not giving any effort. It’s not an accomplishment whatsoever.

@HellfireUnit: KOTOR Revan curbstomps this round lmao. His scaling from Kun and the SF are far beyond Maul.

January 12th 2020, 11:19 am

IG (Exists) wrote:@HellfireUnit: KOTOR Revan curbstomps this round lmao. His scaling from Kun and the SF are far beyond Maul.

i agree... we need some revan representation in these threads. and exar kun for that matter

January 12th 2020, 11:32 am

The "barely tapped into his reserves" quote was a direct contrast of their stamina, not effort. The text made it clear that Maul did seriously press him but ran out of steam due to his existing injuries.

January 12th 2020, 11:48 am

IG (Exists) wrote:@HellfireUnit: KOTOR Revan curbstomps this round lmao. His scaling from Kun and the SF are far beyond Maul.

Except that Maul has way superior combat skills and Revan's lack of offensive Force Powers won't give him the edge against the Zabrak Sith unless it is a ragdoll tier which is not. Revan's feats as of KOTOR are highly suspicious. Tell me why this so called scaling should matter IG?

January 12th 2020, 11:50 am

Notable feats from Revan comes post-KOTOR II. Prior to Novel, Revan's basically featless. Even as of SoR, Revan's combat skills doesn't come upto the play, only his strength at the Force and hax.

January 12th 2020, 11:52 am

even if maul has superior combat skills it doesnt mean he is superior in the force which is ultimately what matters exar kun has superior feats to maul by far and revan scales above him its not that hard to grasp really

January 12th 2020, 11:55 am

mr dinky wrote:even if maul has superior combat skills it doesnt mean he is superior in the force which is ultimately what matters exar kun has superior feats to maul by far and revan scales above him its not that hard to grasp really

Do you think lightsaber combat is primarily decided by Force power, or some other attribute?

Revan vs Darth Maul