Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

January 12th 2020, 4:23 pm

Azronger wrote:

IG (Exists) wrote:@Azronger Nihilus' connection to the Ravager is irrelevant as Meetra claims Revan (as of the MW nonetheless) has a "greater command of the Force" than anybody she's ever met including Nihilus.

It is very relevant. If Nihilus's feats are fueled by an external amp and not his own command of the Force, then Revan purportedly having a greater command of the Force doesn't mean he scales from the feat.

Revan is put over Maul via scaling from Kun as Kun's TP domination of all the scanning technicians in Cinnagar (a likely larger than 1% fraction out of a billion people or so) as well as his capability of maintaining a (spell or TP) over the entire senate while stomping Vodo seems to be beyond the reach of TPM Maul. I'd argue TCW Maul could beat KOTOR Revan (dunno, maybe), but Maul hasn't shown much on the level of TPing the entire senate (depending on how it's looked upon) or all the people in Cinnagar. A lot of what I'm basing this on is the stat program, which makes TP out to be a lot harder than TK.

I want meticulous citations for every claim made here.

Edit: His martial capabilities are also comparable (Echani, tactics, etc), and his scaling beyond the Exiles (to the point where they're bugs to him) makes this more plausible.

Why does scaling beyond the Dark Jedi Exiles matter in a fight against Maul?

Okay.

(For Cinnagar)
Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 8 MDRyYaWqWrbXkQXDUWQgv0eE9FPVL7xrbl3dV_CxyRLLklKUKkVAetIsJeg9PiTIoePdFqAmiWLhY4ZqQznhr0FVvMw9RTXfswM3KnALnQBmiRFLLPZ8-zrry5RReLD-xmglR6ch

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 8 MDRyYaWqWrbXkQXDUWQgv0eE9FPVL7xrbl3dV_CxyRLLklKUKkVAetIsJeg9PiTIoePdFqAmiWLhY4ZqQznhr0FVvMw9RTXfswM3KnALnQBmiRFLLPZ8-zrry5RReLD-xmglR6ch

Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith audiobook wrote:"Help!"

"No one will help you, no one even knows."

"But your ship! Energy blasts! Scanners!"

"All went unnoticed, my unfortunate friend. With the dark side I blinded every scanning technician in Cinnagar. They all watched me land and wipe out your little docking bay, and not one of them batted an eye!"

"Who.. are you?"

"I? Soon, I shall be the man who conquered this planet, the man who rules the galaxy. But for this moment, I am the man who murdered you."

Maul hasn't shown TP on this scale before. And the Exile scaling was just a general overview of what else SF scaling shows.

Can I have a citation for the special connection with the Ravager btw? Never seen that before.

@Azronger

January 12th 2020, 4:27 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Revan

January 12th 2020, 4:42 pm

Well, since we all agree that lightsaber combat and Force augmentation are a clear indicator of Force power, then why should we defer to Kun's sorcery/TP feats, and Revan's scaling over Kun, and not address Maul's overwhelmingly obvious edge in lightsaber and Forge augmentation feats?

For one, it's a common area for both characters, and, there's a whole lore to draw from to make potential arguments. E.g Kun smashing beskar is a good physical feat.

TP and sorcery aren't areas Maul specialises in, so it's little surprise why he doesn't share Kun's feats. That doesn't necessarily mean Maul is weaker than Kun in every other way, and it also doesn't mean Revan simply acquires all of Kun's feats in an area Kun specialises in.

More importantly, though: Kun's TP feats are all against weak willed non Force users, who are notoriously easy to manipulate with TP. It's much, much, much harder to TP a single high willpower opponent than even armies of weaker ones, and there are examples of this fact all across the mythos: few Jedi are defeated with sorcery in TotJ, even novices with little experience against it, meanwhile armies of thousands get destroyed by Sith Illusions. As Bane realised, resisting sorcery is primarily a case of willpower.

Look at Wyyrlok TPing 12 Sith acolytes into killing each other but having serious issues with just Andeddu alone. Look at Plagueis having issues with a single Force resistant yinchorri. Vader failing to TP Leia and Boba Fett. Vitiate and the Dread Masters struggling to break Revan, and not even detecting their own minds being probed by him. Need I go on?

Resisting TP isn't even wholly to do with Force power. A massive modifier is regular mental resilience, hence why Boba Fett is difficult to TP.

So, is there a particular reason we should defer to Revan's scaling over Kun, who happens to have good TP feats against thousands of muggles, over Maul's edge in augmentation?

January 12th 2020, 5:09 pm

@Azronger:

Welcome back.

Thanks.

I don't care what the intent is. It's non-canon so it's non-canon. I wrote my fanfic with the intent to show Vader stomps Revan, but it's still non-canon.

I'd put more stock into the intent of a published SW comic than a fanfic written by somebody on SI tbh.

Regarding the other points I'll refrain from commenting until I see the evidence firsthand.

January 12th 2020, 5:24 pm

I'd put more stock into the intent of a published SW comic than a fanfic written by somebody on SI tbh.

Regarding the other points I'll refrain from commenting until I see the evidence firsthand.

@DC77 (Reborn) So you think Vader ~ Yoda?

January 12th 2020, 5:30 pm

not joking, vader's pure raw power could be close if not equal to yoda's.

January 12th 2020, 5:37 pm

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:not joking, vader's pure raw power could be close if not equal to yoda's.

January 12th 2020, 5:39 pm

i knew u were gonna say that lol

January 12th 2020, 5:44 pm

i can certainly agree with lorenzo however we all know that in experience,knowledge and versatility yoda defeats vader badly

January 12th 2020, 5:51 pm

vader is far more experienced than him fighting tbh. knowledge too, since he does in fact know all that yoda knows. versatility goes hand in hand with knowledge, so vader is also above him. what yoda has on vader is greater mobility, but to a much greater extent.

January 12th 2020, 5:56 pm

ya id say vader is definitely more powerful but its how he applies that power that puts him below yoda

January 12th 2020, 5:59 pm

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:i knew u were gonna say that lol

Theoretically, yes he can reach something resembling that power level, but he never has.

January 12th 2020, 6:00 pm

BoD wrote:

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:i knew u were gonna say that lol

Theoretically, yes he can reach something resembling that power level, but he never has.

he has had yoda levels of power before like environmental feats and stuff but not combatively applicable to alot of situations

January 12th 2020, 6:09 pm

u already know that im a vadertard, so u expected nothing more (but im sure u were disappointed when i said that), but vader DOES have potential equal to Sidious's in the armor, and he CAN in fact access his previous power in theory, as u said. Sidious too showed fear that he could grow as powerful as his ROTS self (sidious's ROTS self, not anakin's), so him reachin that lvl of power is not technically impossible.

January 12th 2020, 6:09 pm

@BoD Patience my young friend, a response will be coming.

January 12th 2020, 6:11 pm

Jesus, I slept for like a few hours and this thread's on fire.

January 12th 2020, 6:57 pm

@DC77 (Reborn) Uh...reply to what?

Also, disabled my tags temporarily.

January 12th 2020, 7:01 pm

This.

January 12th 2020, 7:21 pm

Replied.

January 14th 2020, 12:09 pm

IG (Exists) wrote:

Azronger wrote:

IG (Exists) wrote:@Azronger Nihilus' connection to the Ravager is irrelevant as Meetra claims Revan (as of the MW nonetheless) has a "greater command of the Force" than anybody she's ever met including Nihilus.

It is very relevant. If Nihilus's feats are fueled by an external amp and not his own command of the Force, then Revan purportedly having a greater command of the Force doesn't mean he scales from the feat.

Revan is put over Maul via scaling from Kun as Kun's TP domination of all the scanning technicians in Cinnagar (a likely larger than 1% fraction out of a billion people or so) as well as his capability of maintaining a (spell or TP) over the entire senate while stomping Vodo seems to be beyond the reach of TPM Maul. I'd argue TCW Maul could beat KOTOR Revan (dunno, maybe), but Maul hasn't shown much on the level of TPing the entire senate (depending on how it's looked upon) or all the people in Cinnagar. A lot of what I'm basing this on is the stat program, which makes TP out to be a lot harder than TK.

I want meticulous citations for every claim made here.

Edit: His martial capabilities are also comparable (Echani, tactics, etc), and his scaling beyond the Exiles (to the point where they're bugs to him) makes this more plausible.

Why does scaling beyond the Dark Jedi Exiles matter in a fight against Maul?

Okay.

(For Cinnagar)

Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith audiobook wrote:"Help!"

"No one will help you, no one even knows."

"But your ship! Energy blasts! Scanners!"

"All went unnoticed, my unfortunate friend. With the dark side I blinded every scanning technician in Cinnagar. They all watched me land and wipe out your little docking bay, and not one of them batted an eye!"

"Who.. are you?"

"I? Soon, I shall be the man who conquered this planet, the man who rules the galaxy. But for this moment, I am the man who murdered you."

Maul hasn't shown TP on this scale before. And the Exile scaling was just a general overview of what else SF scaling shows.

Can I have a citation for the special connection with the Ravager btw? Never seen that before.

@Azronger

Is the scan of Cinnagar's population as of TotJ? It references the historical battles with the Sith, so I'm inclined to believe it's from a modern PoV. Thus, I don't see a reason to believe the 1.3 billion figure would apply to thousands of years in the past. Look at how rapidly our own population is expanding.

I also want a citation to the stats program btw. Neither of Kun's feats were full-on mind-control so I don't buy your claim that that sort of TP is harder than TK without evidence.

For Nihilus's connection to the Ravager:

"You're his link... to this place. Can you disrupt that link somehow?"

"I... I... will try..."

{Gameplay Programmer: Close up of Visas trying to concentrate, Nihilus roars.}{Gameplay Programmer: Nihilus collapses to one knee, clearly in pain. Game Effect: Put a stun effect on Nihilus and drop all his Force buffs.}{Like she's holding up the world}

"He... I... cannot hold him for long..."

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

For the best results, tell her to block the flow of power Nihilus absorbs from the Ravager; this stuns him for a few seconds.

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords: Prima Official Game Guide

January 14th 2020, 12:25 pm

@Azronger: I got it from the WOTC thing, I'm fairly certain that it's a TOTJ estimate. Decaf gave me the source, so I dunno.

How do I add a stat thing here btw?

January 15th 2020, 4:53 am

Use html

January 16th 2020, 7:43 am

Is there anything stopping Revan from stomping?

January 16th 2020, 8:09 am

Don't know. Is there anything stopping Maul from stomping?