SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Krayt (Azronger) vs Darth Tyranus (ArkhamAsylum3)

Azronger wrote:

Krayt Dies wrote:

I've always wondered: what does "HP" actually stand for? Harry Potter?

Yes.

I see. Now all you need to do to is rename yourself H_P_LeGenD to become who you truly are.

Lmao. I would never change my name to resemble S_W_LeGenD's. His Majesty is on another level entirely to us braindead idiots.

@Azronger How dare you compare HP to a God like LeGenD. He is enlightened beyond us mere mortals. Only debaters such as Freedumb Nadd, DarthCucktus77, AncientPounder, Cactus Prat and Doxiciate can hope to compete.

Krayt Dies wrote:

Azronger wrote:

Krayt Dies wrote:

I've always wondered: what does "HP" actually stand for? Harry Potter?

Yes.

I see. Now all you need to do to is rename yourself H_P_LeGenD to become who you truly are.

Lmao. I would never change my name to resemble S_W_LeGenD's. His Majesty is on another level entirely to us braindead idiots.

I wonder if ISV will once again get the joke while you missed it.

Pretty sure nobody's stupid enough to miss it.

Why does everyone feel the need to rub in the fact that I'm terrible at detecting humor in text form?

It took me several attempts to read HP’s last post. What a shocker.

Azronger has destroyed this entire time.

I would say up, but the thing is, I very much disliked the first post of each second post tho

MP wrote:It took me several attempts to read HP’s last post. What a shocker.

Azronger has destroyed this entire time.

Thanks for all of the constructive criticism.

I've a proposition, @Krayt Dies: For every hour I'm past the deadline, I'll lose 100 characters, so the inverse of our earlier deal. I'll automatically lose the debate if I don't respond within two weeks after the deadline. Sound good?

Certainly.

@The Master of the Foundry

Sorry, but I outright ignored several of your points, even if they were relevant to the debate. Reason being that I have very little patience for bullshit, and required copious amounts of willpower to even finish reading your post (I failed like thrice), much less respond to it, which is why this thing took a month. Even then, I ran out of characters and time, but I’m counting on winning despite this.

I. COUNT DOOKU VS OBI-WAN KENOBI

Well, you’ve done a rather poor job at that. There’s a reason why we don’t see characters on the same tier/near equals in power ragdolling each other constantly, and that’s simply because they lack the speed and skill to hit their opponent before they can react. Dooku’s ragdolling of Kenobi, while under unfavorable circumstances, proves he’s far more powerful than Kenobi, as he had to hit Kenobi before he could raise a barrier which requires him to be significantly faster and have better reflexes both of which are directly correlated with Force Power via physical augmentation. In essence, Dooku is more powerful than Kenobi to a significant degree whether Kenobi raised a barrier to deflect his attack or not, which was my premise.

Well, given that you didn’t seem to understand the premise of my response, I’m not exactly sure I can call your rebuttal to the feat a success.

That was a generalised summary of your argument, given that I don’t think it is possible for characters on the same power level to be able to stomp each other so I replaced your, “same power level” phrase, with, “given Hett can put up a good fight against Kenobi he can thus put up a good fight against Dooku.” The two are interchangeable in my mind.

I don’t care that they’re interchangeable in your head. What matters is what was put on the page. My premise was not “that given Hett can put up a good fight against Kenobi he can thus put up a fight against Dooku,” but “that Hett’s fight with Kenobi puts him on the same power level as Dooku.” And your premise was not “Dooku is more powerful than Kenobi to a significant degree whether Kenobi raised a barrier to deflect his attack or not,” but rather the following:

Erm, what…? Your premise for this debate is that given Hett can put up a good fight against Kenobi he can thus put up a fight against Dooku (Kenobi’s supposed near equal) yet you haven’t at all refuted the idea that Dooku can stomp Kenobi on a whim with TK. Instead, you’ve presented the idea that Dooku did it through superior speed and skill instead of power which doesn’t actually refute the feat in question. If Dooku can hit Kenobi with TK before the latter can react while being hard pressed by Anakin then he most certainly will do so under normal circumstances and will likely do the same to Hett as well. Put simply the idea that Kenobi or Hett can put up a fight against Dooku is utterly absurd when we know for a fact that Dooku can stomp Kenobi with TK whenever he wants and the latter is simply unable to do anything about it. It’s a clear showing of vast superiority however you look at it.

Nowhere do you mention Dooku’s supposedly superior speed as an indicator of superior power. You even label my argument as Dooku ragdolling Kenobi “through superior speed and skill instead of power” (which in itself is a mischaracterization of what I said, but I forgot to penalize you for it earlier, so I’ll do so now*) and don’t proceed to contradict it. It seems the only one who doesn’t understand your premise is you yourself.

*FALLACY COUNTER: 1

Now, let’s play a game called “HP logic.” It involves creating ragdoll-tier gaps based on Force users catching people off-guard without their telekinetic barriers active. I’ll start:



Cade Skywalker pushes back Karness Muur when Muur is about to attack him “before he could raise a barrier which requires him to be significantly faster and have better reflexes both of which are directly correlated with Force Power via physical augmentation.” This “proves he’s far more powerful” than Muur. Several issues later Cade gets stalemated by Darth Stryfe, who in turn gets ragdolled by Saarai, whose powers are ”nascent” compared to her father’s, whose abilities in turn are ”far outstripped” by Vong Krayt.













Given that Vong Krayt >> Wyyrlok III >> Saarai >>> Stryfe = Cade >>> Muur, your Muur argument is broken, and you have no other arguments putting Dooku above Krayt. I have just decimated your entire case. Let us then continue with HP logic:



Darth Vader telekinetically throws back the Emperor “before he could raise a barrier which requires him to be significantly faster and have better reflexes both of which are directly correlated with Force Power via physical augmentation.” This “proves he’s far more powerful” than the Emperor. He then has 19 years of growth leading up to A New Hope where he has a pretty good fight with Old Ben.









Excited though he was by the thought of hunting Jedi, the reminder of the goal his Master allowed him to share was instantly sobering. All his life he had been trained to turn fear into anger, and anger into power. It was no different, he realized, for Darth Vader. Where else could Lord Vader look for increased power than to the Emperor himself? People were either predators or prey. That was one of the most basic rules of life. Together, Darth Vader and his apprentice would ensure that their joint power only increased.


Obi-Wan lunged for him with his saber. Vader's own sword clashed against it Obi-Wan thrust again. Vader stopped it again. Now Vader lashed out. Obi-Wan blocked him, but he fell back.

"Your powers are weak, old man. "

"You may think so. But if you strike me down, I shall become strong. Stronger than you ever thought possible. "

Back and forth the battle raged. News of it spread among the troopers. They came running from all parts of the Death Star. Soon even the Falcon was left unguarded.


But just as he was ready to deliver the final strike, Obi-Wan managed a fast series of attacks, and Vader had to move quickly to avoid the strikes. Even as old and weak as Obi-Wan was, his technique was accomplished enough that a foolish move on Vader’s part could still be fatal.




Old Ben in turn is inferior to himself when he dueled A’Sharad Hett, and he couldn’t stomp Hett then, so he’s not going to be able to when he’s weaker: “this fight definitely proves Kenobi can’t stomp Hett or anything of that nature.”

He still had some skill, his old Master did, but he was out of practice. Vader could feel it through the Force.






So, Vong Krayt >>>> Jedi Hett < 17 BBY Kenobi > ANH Kenobi < ANH Vader > 19 BBY Vader >>> RotS Sidious >> Dooku. I win.

But wait, I already know what you’re gonna say:

Also, rethinking it I’m not sure this fight can be used to draw definitive parity between Kenobi and Hett. They clash blades, only a few times at the start of the duel before Hett floors Kenobi with a kick. This is not enough to draw definitive parity between the two, as we’ve seen in the lore that weaker Force User have been able to land lucky hits on far stronger ones, such as when Shaak Ti hit Galen in the TFU comic prior to Galen severely wounding her with an omnidirectional TK attack while weakened (7), or Barriss landing a TK attack on Anakin prior to him telekinetically dominating her in TCW S5 (8), or Aurra Sing landing a kick on Jacen Solo in Legacy of the Force: Tempest despite the fact that Jacen was capable of one-shotting her with Force Lightning (9). The next hit Hett lands is a direct a direct continuation of the first attack with him attacking Kenobi while the latter had barely gotten back on his feet. From that moment onwards, Kenobi displays decisive superiority. He responds to Hett’s physical strikes in kind by kicking him in the stomach, blocks Hett’s blows despite the latter abusing the environment and then finishes him with a Force Push. In short, while this fight definitely proves Kenobi can’t stomp Hett or anything of that nature it doesn’t prove Hett’s on his tier.

They were nothing but lucky hits! Another rule of HP logic is to ditch all consistency and good faith, and argue whatever suits your narrative even if the arguments are contradictory to one another.

Unfortunately for you, however, this debate does not follow the rules of HP logic. Rather, it follows the rules of normal logic. Your argument that Dooku catching Obi-Wan in a Force grip before the latter could react is proof of him being “more powerful than Kenobi to a significant degree” is a double standard because later on your proceed to list examples of Force users catching each other off-guard in the same vein as what Dooku did to Obi-Wan, except this time they’re not indicators of superior power at all, but simply “lucky hits.” To further cement this, you claim Dooku’s Force choke on Obi-Wan isn’t a singular instance of such happening, and then cite his Force push from earlier in the fight, proving you don’t see pushes and grips as any different; they’re one and the same to you:

I mean, given that all of the circumstances put Dooku at a disadvantage I’d say that this “singular instance” does prove Dooku can ragdoll Kenobi. Moreover, this isn’t even a singular instance. Dooku hits Kenobi with TK early in the fight and sends him flying into a wall which knocks Kenobi out (2).

So yeah, a double standard.* A double standard that destroys your case too, because your only proof for the Count being vastly greater than Kenobi was the ragdoll. If it’s invalid, then you have no argument for Dooku’s superiority. If it’s valid, then I’ve detailed above how the same logic can be used to defeat your Muur argument, removing any and all caps you have argued upon Krayt, and position Krayt unfathomably beyond Tyranus. So indeed, it destroys your case.

*FALLACY COUNTER: 2

You cited speed and skill feats to put Kenobi on the same power level as Dooku, and then for some reason didn’t take the ragdolling which I complimented as a showing of speed and skill as indicative of power superiority on Dooku’s part, and instead tried to play it off like I hadn’t refuted the feat. Double standards much?

No, you mischaracterized my argument as me saying Dooku’s showing is one of superior speed and skill when I never stated such, and you didn’t mention anything about how it supposedly accredits Dooku with greater power than Kenobi. What is actually believe is that Dooku simply caught Kenobi with his Force defenses down and manipulated his unprotected body, something which happens all the time and isn’t proof of anything. Kenobi baffling Dooku with his Force-augmented speed, however, is very much a window into both of their power in comparison to one another.

Well, yes, because he was heavily disadvantaged and was dealing with another incredibly powerful combatant in Anakin. It’s not far fetched to assume that Dooku proving significantly faster and more skilled than Kenobi under such circumstances leaves a wide chasm between them on neutral ground. Just to emphasise how weakened Dooku was, take a look at this (1). The relevant parts are underlined. Dooku is so drained he’s barely sensing his surroundings, and his Force Reserves are all but fully depleted.

Red herring.* All Dooku did to Kenobi was lift and toss his unshielded body. The average human adult male body weighs around 80 kilograms - that’s incredibly light for someone of Dooku’s power and he would have no trouble thrashing something like that around even in his fatigued condition. After all, he had enough strength left even after this to kick Anakin across the room, accelerate Kenobi’s fall, take Skywalker’s boot to the face “with something resembling terminal velocity,” and correct himself in the air and land on his feet.

While Kenobi’s bonelessly limp body was still tumbling toward the floor far below, Dooku sent a surge of energy through the Force. Kenobi’s fall suddenly accelerated like a missile burning the last of its drives before impact. The Jedi Master struck the floor at a steep angle, skidded along it, and slammed into the wall so hard the hydro-foamed permacrete buckled and collapsed onto him.

This Dooku found exceedingly gratifying.

Now, as for Skywalker—

Which was as far as Dooku got, because by the time his attention returned to the younger Jedi, his vision was rather completely obstructed by the sole of a boot approaching his face with something resembling terminal velocity.

The impact was a blast of white fire, and there was a second impact against his back that was the balcony rail, and then the room turned upside down and he fell toward the ceiling, but not really, of course: it only felt that way because he had flipped over the rail and he was falling headfirst toward the floor, and neither his arms nor his legs were paying any attention to what he was trying to make them do. The Force seemed to be busy elsewhere, and really, the whole process was entirely mortifying.

He was barely able to summon a last surge of dark power before what would have been a disabling impact. The Force cradled him, cushioning his fall and setting him on his feet.


This doesn’t prove Dooku can ragdoll Kenobi whenever he wishes.

*FALLACY COUNTER: 3

I mean, given that all of the circumstances put Dooku at a disadvantage I’d say that this “singular instance” does prove Dooku can ragdoll Kenobi. Moreover, this isn’t even a singular instance. Dooku hits Kenobi with TK early in the fight and sends him flying into a wall which knocks Kenobi out (2).

Where is it stated Kenobi was knocked out?* Your only citation states he crashed “hard against the wall.”

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 1

Kenobi may not be expecting an attack from Dooku when he ran up the stairs to confront The Count, but he should have been more than ready for one by the time Dooku ragdolled him, given that he and Dooku clash blades before the ragdolling (link), and Dooku alters his position to both Kenobi and Skywalker are in front of him. Any thoughts such as the one you posted would have been disregarded by Kenobi the moment he and Dooku clashed blades, as he would have realised he was mistaken in his assumption that The Count was unable to deal with both him and Anakin at the same time, meaning he most certainly wasn’t caught off guard and should have been expecting an attack from Dooku

Nothing indicates Kenobi was prepared for a telekinetic assault from Dooku barely a second after because the latter parried with his lightsaber. Or that he even thought Dooku was going to go for him over Anakin, or both of them at once. It’s even started that “Dooku abruptly shifted tactics” when he choked Obi-Wan, further signifying it was an unexpected move.



Regardless, you’ve already done my work for me: there are plenty of instances in the lore where Force users affect each other with telekinetic attacks that don’t denote superiority whatsoever. The junior novel confirms Kenobi did not have his guard up so I have no reason to take this as proof Dooku can ragdoll - or is better at all - than him.

I truly am disappointed Az. Your entire rebuttal is based on a faulty premise and your inability to pay attention to the dialogue in the scene. Dooku’s tiredness is noted before this line in the novelization: “Your moves are clumsy, Kenobi . . . too predictable. You'll have to do better.” In the script, on the other hand, it’s noted that as the duel progresses after the aforementioned dialogue Kenobi and Dooku are tired. In other words, it is impossible to assert when in the duel Kenobi became tired. All we know is that he tired at some point in the duel.

I expected you to give this exact response, and you danced right to my tune. Let me lay out the chronology of the duel:

OBI-WAN: You won't get away this time, Dooku.

OBI-WAN and ANAKIN charge COUNT DOOKU. A great sword fight ensues.

COUNT DOOKU: I've been looking forward to this.

ANAKIN: My powers have doubled since the last time we met, Count.

COUNT DOOKU: Good. Twice the pride, double the fall.

DOOKU lunges at the JEDI and they fall back . . .

COUNT DOOKU: (continuing) Your moves are clumsy, Kenobi . . . too predictable. You'll have to do better.

As the battle proceeds, OBI-WAN and COUNT DOOKU are tired. ANAKIN is stronger as he becomes angry. ANAKIN continues to drive the attack on DOOKU. COUNT DOOKU throws OBI-WAN back using the Force.


In the script, after Anakin and Dooku have their banter, it describes the fight as continuing but doesn’t give specifics. At some point, though, Dooku says ”Your moves are clumsy, Kenobi… to predictable. You’ll have to do better”, after which it is stated Obi-Wan is tired. However, Kenobi’s exhaustion is made note of before Dooku Force-pushes him.

Let’s now turn to the novelization to fill the gaps:

While effortlessly deflecting a rain of blue-streaking cuts from Kenobi, Dooku felt the Force shove the situation table away from the wall and send it hurtling toward his back with astonishing speed; he barely managed to lift himself enough that he could backroll over it instead of having it shatter his spine.

“My my,” he said, chuckling. “The boy has some power after all.”

His backroll brought him to his feet directly in front of the lad, who was charging, headlong and unarmed, after the table he had tossed, and was already thoroughly red in the face.

“I’m twice the Jedi I was last time!”

Ah, Dooku thought. Such a fragile little ego. Sidious will have to help him with that. But until then—

The grip of Skywalker’s blade whistled through the air to meet his hand in perfect synchrony with a sweeping slash. “My powers have doubled since we last met—”

“How lovely for you.” Dooku neatly sidestepped, cutting at the boy’s leg, yet Skywalker’s blade met the cut as he passed and he managed to sweep his blade behind his head to slap aside the casual thrust Dooku aimed at the back of his neck—but his clumsy charge had put him in Kenobi’s path, so that the Jedi Master had to Force-roll over his partner’s head.

Directly at Dooku’s upraised blade.

Kenobi drove a slash at the scarlet blade while he pivoted in the air, and again Dooku sidestepped so that now it was Kenobi in Skywalker’s way.

“Really,” Dooku said, “this is pathetic.”

Oh, they were certainly energetic enough, leaping and whirling, raining blows almost at random, cutting chairs to pieces and Force-hurling them in every conceivable direction, while Dooku continued, in his gracefully methodical way, to outmaneuver them so thoroughly it was all he could do to keep from laughing out loud.

It was a simple matter of countering their tactics, which were depressingly straightforward; Skywalker was the swift one, whooshing here and there like a spastic hawk-bat—attempting a Jedi variant of neek-in-the-middle so they could come at him from both sides—while Kenobi came on in a measured Shii-Cho cadence, deliberate as a lumberdroid, moving step by step, cutting off the angles, clumsy but relentlessly dogged as he tried to chivvy Dooku into a corner.

Whereas all Dooku need do was to slip from one side to another—and occasionally flip over a head here and there—so that he could fight each of them in turn, rather than both of them at the same time. He supposed that in their own milieu, they might actually prove reasonably effective; it was clear that their style had been developed by fighting as a team against large numbers of opponents. They were not prepared to fight together against a single Force-user, certainly not one of Dooku’s power; he, on the other hand, had always fought alone. It was laughably easy to keep the Jedi tripping and stumbling and getting in each other’s way.

They didn’t even comprehend how utterly he dominated the combat. Because they fought as they had been trained, by releasing all desire and allowing the Force to flow through them, they had no hope of countering Dooku’s mastery of Sith techniques. They had learned nothing since he had bested them on Geonosis.

They allowed the Force to direct them; Dooku directed the Force.

He drew their strikes to his parries, and drove his own ripostes with thrusts of dark power that subtly altered the Jedi’s balance and disrupted their timing. He could have slaughtered both of them as casually as that creature Maul had destroyed the vigos of the Black Sun.

However, only one death was in his plan, and this dumb-show was becoming tiresome. Not to mention tiring. The dark power that served him went only so far, and he was, after all, not a young man.

He leaned into a thrust at Kenobi’s gut that the Jedi Master deflected with a rising parry, bringing them chest-to-chest, blades flaring, locked together a handbreadth from each other’s throats. “Your moves are too slow, Kenobi. Too predictable. You’ll have to do better.”

Kenobi’s response to this friendly word was to regard him with a twinkle of gentle amusement in his eye.

“Very well, then,” the Jedi said, and shot straight upward over Dooku’s head so fast it seemed he’d vanished.

And in the space where Kenobi’s chest had been was now only the blue lightning of Skywalker’s blade driving straight for Dooku’s heart.

Only a desperate whirl to one side made what would have been a smoking hole in his chest into a line of scorch through his armorweave cloak.

Dooku thought, What?

He threw himself spinning up and away from the two Jedi to land on the situation table, disengaging for a moment to recover his composure—that had been entirely too close—but by the time his boots touched down Kenobi was there to meet him, blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike; he threw a feint toward Kenobi’s face, then dropped and spun in a reverse ankle-sweep—

But not only did Kenobi easily overleap this attack, Dooku nearly lost his own foot to a slash from Skywalker who had again come out of nowhere and now carved through the table so that it collapsed under Dooku’s weight and dumped the Sith Lord unceremoniously to the floor.

This was not in the plan.

Skywalker slammed his following strike down so hard that the shock of deflecting it buckled Dooku’s elbows. Dooku threw himself into a backroll that brought him to his feet—and Kenobi’s blade was there to meet his neck. Only a desperate whirling slash-block, coupled with a wheel kick that caught Kenobi on the thigh, bought him enough time to leap away again, and when he touched down—

Skywalker was already there.

The first overhand chop of Skywalker’s blade slid off Dooku’s instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku’s wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku’s scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground.

Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from?

Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step. Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him. Dooku’s breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker’s strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength—not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing—

And only then did Dooku understand that he’d been suckered.

Skywalker’s Shien ready-stance had been a ruse, as had his Ataro gymnastics; the boy was a Djem So stylist, and as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen. His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head. Especially not while also defending against a second attacker.

It was time to alter his own tactics.

He dropped low and spun into another reverse anklesweep—the weakness of Djem So was its lack of mobility—that slapped Skywalker’s boot sharply enough to throw the young Jedi off balance, giving Dooku the opportunity to leap away—

Only to find himself again facing the wheel of blue lightning that was Kenobi’s blade.

Dooku decided that the comedy had ended.

Now it was time to kill.

Kenobi’s Master had been Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku’s own Padawan; Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he knew every weakness of the Ataro form, with its ridiculous acrobatics. He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi’s legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades—and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku’s mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper, and when Dooku felt Skywalker regain his feet and stride once more toward his back, he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi’s Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.

Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.

Dooku found himself having a sudden, unexpected, overpowering, and entirely distressing bad feeling about this …

His farce had suddenly, inexplicably, spun from humorous to deadly serious and was tumbling rapidly toward terrifying. Realization burst through Dooku’s consciousness like the blossoming fireballs of dying ships outside: this pair of Jedi fools had somehow managed to become entirely dangerous.

These clowns might—just possibly—actually be able to beat him.

No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easily than a new apprentice.

He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn’t have time to enjoy it.


The underlined section is the part between ”My powers have doubled since we last met” and ”Your moves are too slow” that in the script is mentioned as only one line: ”DOOKU lunges at the JEDI and they fall back…” The three dots indicate the sequence went on despite it not being written in the script. Coincidentally, the novelization provides no details either; it merely describes that the Jedi are attacking the Count, but it only gives generalizations about their fighting tactics, and doesn’t even tell us how long this portion of the fight lasted. Like the script, there are no details.

Contrast this with what comes after Dooku’s ”Your moves are too slow” line: the novelization goes into vivid detail into the minutiae of the duel. I’ll dissect it in the following way:

Dooku tells Kenobi that his moves are too slow and predictable, and that he is going to have to do better; Kenobi jumps ”straight upward over Dooku’s head so fast it seemed he’d vanished”; Skywalker lunges for Dooku’s heart; Dooku evades; Dooku jumps back to recover his composure, but finds Kenobi’s ”blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike”; Dooku throws a feint at Kenobi’s face and tries to sweep his feet from under him; Kenobi ”easily” overleaps the attack; Skywalker slices the table Dooku is standing on so that Dooku falls to the floor; Skywalker strikes at Dooku while he is on the floor; Dooku deflects the strike and backrolls to his feet; Kenobi attempts to decapitate Dooku; Dooku blocks and kicks Kenobi in the thigh; Skywalker pounds at Dooku’s defense for a while; Dooku kicks Skywalker’s foot off-balance and disengages; Kenobi charges at Dooku while spinning his blade; Dooku launches a series of thrusts at Kenobi’s legs; Kenobi blocks “every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper”; Dooku replenishes his Force reserves and Force-pushes Kenobi.

Now, let’s review what Obi-Wan actually does here. He jumps over Dooku’s head, spins his blade briefly, jumps over Dooku’s ankle-sweep, strikes at Dooku’s neck, gets kicked in the thigh by Dooku, spins his blade briefly again, and blocks all of Dooku’s thrusts. That’s it. And it is during these moves that he is noted to be ”tired” per the script. Seeing as enervation is a gradual process, and not one of two binary physical states, I severely doubt someone of Kenobi’s incredible stamina would tire from spinning his blade fast twice, slashing once, getting kicked in the leg once, and jumping twice, over the span of, what, a minute? The script states he already is tired during these moves, not that he became tired while doing them, so for me the obvious conclusion is that he got tired way before this. After all, we don’t know the length of the portion between ”My powers have doubled since we last met” and ”Your moves are too slow.” It could have been 30 seconds, or ten minutes. Impossible to tell. Therefore, my analysis of the fight is plausible, and according to it, what I said earlier rings true: Dooku being exhausted when Kenobi spun his lightsaber ”through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike” is negated by Kenobi’s own exhaustion while doing the feat, and the same fact applies to when he stonewalled all of Dooku’s attacks.

Dooku’s obviously going to be less inclined to strike at Kenobi’s blinding defence when he has a smaller target to hit which would obviously be the case as he’s trying to avoid killing Kenobi as he can’t aim for the head, heart, etc.

Makashi is a precision form and Dooku is its poster boy, yet you’re insinuating here that the prospect of having to strike at small targets makes Dooku less inclined to go on the offensive… The only reason for why I could think that would be the case is if Kenobi’s defensive velocity was indeed so quick Dooku genuinely thought it risky to attempt anything. Which, coincidentally, is exactly what the novelization states: “Kenobi was there to meet him, blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike.” So what exactly have you accomplished here other than reiterating what the novel already tells us and reinforcing the idea Kenobi is near Dooku? Well, I guess you did rather spectacularly also manage to ignore all of my actual points regarding Dooku not trying to kill not meaning he wasn’t going all-out with his defense, Force augmentation, etc. in exchange for a sloppy strawman, so that’s something, at least.*

*FALLACY COUNTER: 4

As for Dooku losing his composure, once again it’s relevant. A scared and surprised Dooku, is obviously going to be less inclined to strike against Kenobi than a calm and collected Dooku.

You're making things up.* Why is it obvious? What part of the text alludes to that? Dooku did throw a feint at Kenobi’s face and attempt an ankle-sweep; he clearly wasn’t too terrified or startled to fight back. How about just go with what the text says and accept that Kenobi's speed and speed alone made the Count not dare to try a proper strike.

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 2

Things don’t have to be explicitly stated for them to have relevance.

True, but you first have to prove it had any relevance.

By this point in the duel, Dooku was utterly exhausted. He had depleted the vast majority of his reserves, holding off Kenobi and Skywalker’s earlier assault, then Skywalker’s attack and finally ragdolling Kenobi while kicking Skywalker. The common rebuttal is this quote which supposedly states Dooku recovered his Force reserves:

He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith Novelization

But it doesn’t state that at all… First off, it falls under my earlier rebuttal that even if Dooku did recover lost reserves I doubt it was his full strength, as not even GM Luke can fully recover lost Force Reserves on a whim, and indeed it doesn’t make sense for someone to be able to gain more Force Reserves by using the Force. Secondly, the text makes no mention of Dooku actually recovering any Force Reserves only that he uses the Force to physically augment himself making his age and physical tiredness irrelevant. Overall, given his fight with Yoda, Dooku should do much better than he did here if he has his full reserves to draw upon.

Um…



He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.

That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze, and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat.

“Guards!” he said to the pair of super battle droids that still stood at attention to either side of the entrance. “Open fire!”

Instantly the two droids sprang forward and lifted their hands. Energy hammered out from the heavy blasters built into their arms; Skywalker whirled and his blade batted every blast back at the droids, whose mirror-polished carapace armor deflected the bolts again. Galvened particle beams screeched through the room in blinding ricochets.

Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his lightsaber dismantled both droids. Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that folded Skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick that brought his heel against the point of Kenobi’s chin with a crack like the report of a huge-bore slugthrower, knocking the Jedi Master back down the stairs. Sounded like he’d broken his neck.

Wouldn’t that be lovely?

There was no sense in taking chances, however.

While Kenobi’s bonelessly limp body was still tumbling toward the floor far below, Dooku sent a surge of energy through the Force. Kenobi’s fall suddenly accelerated like a missile burning the last of its drives before impact. The Jedi Master struck the floor at a steep angle, skidded along it, and slammed into the wall so hard the hydro-foamed permacrete buckled and collapsed onto him.

This Dooku found exceedingly gratifying.

Now, as for Skywalker—

Which was as far as Dooku got, because by the time his attention returned to the younger Jedi, his vision was rather completely obstructed by the sole of a boot approaching his face with something resembling terminal velocity.

The impact was a blast of white fire, and there was a second impact against his back that was the balcony rail, and then the room turned upside down and he fell toward the ceiling, but not really, of course: it only felt that way because he had flipped over the rail and he was falling headfirst toward the floor, and neither his arms nor his legs were paying any attention to what he was trying to make them do. The Force seemed to be busy elsewhere, and really, the whole process was entirely mortifying.

He was barely able to summon a last surge of dark power before what would have been a disabling impact. The Force cradled him, cushioning his fall and setting him on his feet.

He dusted himself off and fixed a supercilious gaze on Skywalker, who now stood upon the balcony looking down at him—and Dooku couldn’t hold the stare; he found this reversal of their original positions oddly unsettling.

There was something troublingly appropriate about it.

Seeing Skywalker standing where Dooku himself had stood only moments ago … it was as though he was trying to remember a dream he’d never actually had …

He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.


So Dooku is barely able to summon a last surge of dark power” in “cushioning his fall and setting him on his feet” when falling from a few meters, yet he’s somehow capable of augmenting his physicals after that so that his fatigue and age become non-factors? Even if he could have, at that point he would have no Force energy left at all and he’d be the equivalent of a non-Force user, yet Anakin, who’s more powerful than ever here, can’t instantly smash him with his “astonishing,” “impossibly powerful,” “unstoppable,” “meteor strike” strength when earlier Dooku had to spend ”lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half”? Yeah, I’ll go ahead and make the wild assumption Dooku simply replenished his Force reserves. A fresh Dooku got stomped by Anakin who wasn’t even a 9.

Lmao. One cannot simply replenish all of their lost reserves at will. For example, not even GM Luke can do that (5) and you think Dooku can…? The quote doesn’t make note of the fact that:

A) Dooku replenished himself fully, which indeed wouldn’t make sense as I’ve just explained.

B) Dooku actually recovered any lost reserves. All it notes is that Dooku gathered his strength and threw Kenobi into a wall with TK…

I don’t know the context of the quote with Luke Skywalker, so I can’t say you’ve drawn a false equivalency, but it’s certainly a red herring.* Perhaps Luke was even more exhausted than Dooku, or Luke’s ability to call on the Force was dampened somehow, or it’s a special technique Dooku knows and Luke doesn’t (again, I don’t know the context, although it looks like he had just fought Abeloth), but regardless, Luke is irrelevant here. Dooku did what he did - fact - showing that one clearly can replenish one’s Force reserves at will.

*FALLACY COUNTER: 5

And Dooku clearly did recover his reserves. ”He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe” and only ”the slightest whipcrack of that power” was used to push Kenobi. Where do you think the rest of that power went? Do you think it just disappeared?

Because if he knew Kenobi were using Soresu he wouldn’t be solely striking at Kenobi’s legs…

Prove it.*

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 3

Yes, but that doesn’t refute the idea that it’s significantly easier to parry someone’s strikes when they’re not even striking at a large percentage of your body, as you only have to concentrate on defending a certain area.

You have to concentrate on defending against the opponent's blade no matter where it's landing. Small targets make it more difficult for the attacker, not the defender, and given how Dooku is Makashi’s poster boy, even the added difficulty would have been nullified in this case. And Kenobi didn't know whether Dooku would surprise him by going for his torso or some other area instead on his next strike, so all in all this idea that it’s “significantly easier” for him to defend against Dooku when he’s attacking his legs really makes no sense.

The fact that you ignored over half my rebuttal should speak to how utterly nonsensical this is. You are literally trying to derive parity between Kenobi and Dooku via him blocking a few strikes from Dooku when the latter had just depleted a significant portion of his reserves holding off Skywalker… Even if my first point about Dooku only striking at Kenobi’s legs is adequately addressed in your next response to my post you still haven’t addressed either of these points, so it’s basically impossible for me to take your Dooku~Kenobi arguments remotely seriously.

I already addressed the exhaustion argument, and no, I am deriving parity from Kenobi’s speed causing Dooku to falter back and from Kenobi stonewalling Dooku’s assault. Nothing says he blocked but “a few” of the attacks, by the way.*

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 4

Seriously…? Dooku stomping Anakin is only an 8...? You have provided no sources which state such. You are correct in asserting that Gillard says that Anakin starts ROTS as an 8 when he’s not embracing his fury and that when he uses the Dark Side he becomes a 9. However, you seem to be ignoring the fact that Anakin was using the Dark Side in his fight with Dooku:

All the relevant parts are underlined. Anakin is unleashing his fury and fear and ignoring his Jedi training and restraint. Dooku already described Anakin as half Sith already, when Anakin wasn’t unleashing his full fury so when his full fury was released he should surely be a full on DS user. The fact that the words fear, terror and rage etc are mentioned so many times should paint a clear picture that Anakin is using the Dark Side, meaning by this point he is a 9. Plain and simple.

Dude, you literally cut a key sentence from the paragraph you’re addressing, and then proceeded to refute the point without including the paragraph in it.* As I cited, Gillard likened Anakin’s ascent to level 9 as taking “Force LSD”, which gets him to that place for a few hours, but you’ve cheated your way there, and so that’s how I see with Anakin.” He contrasted this with an Indian Yogi (a real-life stand-in for Yoda) who is enlightened and has ”done it the right way.” Anakin without the dark side was more powerful than when he annihilated Tyranus as I said, “Later on, Anakin muses he feels stronger than ever, putting his Jedi self above his raging, Dooku-stomping, Invisible Hand self,” yet he’s clearly not enlightened. His base self simply surpassed his earlier dark side self, but that doesn’t make him a 9 in that state. Ergo, he wasn’t a 9 when he stomped Dooku either.

*IGNORING MY ARGUMENTS COUNTER: 1

I think what’s getting you confused is that little fallacy of affirming the consequent you’re making there.* You’re taking a truth from the lore (when Anakin is a 9, he is drawing on the dark side) and invalidly concluding its converse must also be true (when Anakin is drawing on the dark side, he is a 9). That’s not how it works.

*FALLACY COUNTER: 6

Lmao. Mustafar Vader is not superior to Invisible Hand Anakin, despite your insistence that he is. Anakin as of the start of ROTS is incredibly fearful. According to his Jedi teachings, he has to suppress this fear when he is fighting or it will distract him or cause him to hold back. However, when he ignores his teachings and turns his fear into anger he is able to clear his mind and fight to the fullest. Though, in emotionally charged situations Anakin’s anger can feed his fear which consumes his mind. For example on Tatooine and Aargonar, “Smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter” (Source: Revenge of the Sith Novelization) which also happened to him on Mustafar: “The rage that boiled up in his brain threatened to block out his vision” (Source: Vader - The Ultimate Guide). Basically, Anakin gets overwhelmed by fear and anger, and is unable to utilise his full power against Obi-Wan so him possessing “newfound powers” for example is totally irrelevant. To summarise, Anakin in this state is not stronger than Anakin when he stomped Dooku, (not that the stomp was legitimate in the first place) and thus Kenobi’s performance against Vader on Mustafar is completely useless for the purposes of this debate.

Fear is mentioned nowhere in your second quote. All that’s stated is that he’s extremely pissed off. Like look at it again: “The rage that boiled up in his brain threatened to block out his vision.” It’s saying his anger consumed his mind to the point his vision almost darkened. And a loss of power is likewise not mentioned. Which makes sense, seeing as anger increases one’s power, which is one of the core principles in all of Star Wars.

Anyway, you’ve ignored virtually every quote I’ve posted on the matter.*

*IGNORING MY ARGUMENTS COUNTER: 2

Of cardinal import is the junior novelization:

But that’s not really true, Obi-Wan thought as he ducked and wove and parried. Both he and Anakin felt the anguish of their need to kill the other. But Anakin had turned to the dark side, and despair and pain strengthened the dark side. It gave him an advantage Obi-Wan could not match. Unless he let go of his own despair and let the living Force move him — the Force that bound all living things together, even Obi-Wan and this new, deadly, evil Anakin.


The words stabbed at Obi-Wan, even though he knew that Anakin was speaking out of his own pain. He felt the dark side grow stronger, feeding on his despair. And then, as Anakin came close enough to swing his lightsaber once more, the Jedi in Obi-Wan rose up and at last he did the thing he hadn’t thought he could do.


Anakin is using his own pain - his trauma - to feed the dark side, which in turn boosts his power. Which, coincidentally, is exactly what he was doing in the Invisible Hand fight where he’s also drawing on the dark side.

Only he stands between death and the two men he loves best in all the world, and he can no longer afford to hold anything back. That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freeze away his strength, to whisper him that Dooku has beaten him before, that Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith-

But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.

When Count Dooku flies at him, blade flashing, Watto's fist cracks out from Anakin's childhood to knock the Sith Lord tumbling back.

When with all the power that the dark side can draw from throughout the universe, Dooku hurls a jagged fragment of the durasteel table, Shmi Skywalker's gentle murmur I knew you would come for me, Anakin smashes it aside.


In short, he’s converting his pain and trauma into power in both instances. Therefore, any quotes about Vader being emotionally damaged do not prove he was weakened on Mustafar, and in fact only reinforce the idea he was stronger.

Next up, we have Gillard’s statements.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2-iZNQrFBA&t=16m20s





Gillard directly states ”Anakin has learned the fighting [...] but he hasn’t learned the mental side of it” and that ”He took Force LSD. And that’s what made him a nine. So that’s dangerous. It’s dangerous because he hasn’t done it the right way. But it’s still a nine, you know? It’s still something that you need to deal with.” I don’t get what’s so hard to understand here. Mustafar Vader, despite all his emotional issues, is still very much a level 9 combatant whose level 9 abilities need to be dealt with. Gillard also prefaces those statements with ”The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters,” making it very clear his statements about Vader being a 9 are in the context of the fight, if that wasn’t obvious from the rest of the scans anyway. All this aligns with my analysis of the junior novel: Anakin’s abilities are bolstered by his pain during the duel, not weakened. And to top it off, the scans mention George Lucas was involved with the discussions about the characters’ fighting prowess in the Mustafar duel; Gillard even says that ”Knowing all of that from a story standpoint was enormously helpful in choreographing the sequences,” implying that Lucas was the one who came up with most of it and passed his ideas to Gillard, who then integrated those into the fighting moves themselves. In short, my argument is supported by the highest authority in all of Star Wars, and yours is supported by nothing.

Also, you completely ignored my argument that RotS Yoda is much more powerful than AotC Yoda.* And the thing is, it’s not contingent on the Mustafar Vader scaling or anything you’ve addressed; I provided two quotes of Sidious being ”the most powerful Sith Lord in history” during his battle with Yoda, making him superior to Knightfall Vader, who in turn is superior to Invisible Hand Anakin, who stomped Dooku. RotS Yoda on the other hand is a near-equal of Sheev, meaning he’d stomp Dooku too. Also, you’ve argued that Vader merely couldn’t harness his power on Mustafar, but you’ve not actually argued he’s less powerful there than on the Invisible Hand. Therefore, Yoda and Sidious being ”the galaxy’s most powerful masters of the Force” still restricts Mustafar Vader - and by proxy, Knightfall Vader - beneath them, irrespective of whether he could utilize his power combatively; all that matters is that he possessed that power.

*IGNORING MY ARGUMENTS COUNTER: 3

Seeing as you have presented nothing else for Yoda being above Revan than a quote from Revenge of the Sith, and presented nothing else for Dooku being close to Yoda save for their fight in Attack of the Clones, Dooku isn’t even a part of your scaling chain anymore. Therefore, you cannot say he scales above Darth Krayt.

Sorry, but I outright ignored several of your points, even if they were relevant to the debate. Reason being that I have very little patience for bullshit, and required copious amounts of willpower to even finish reading your post (I failed like thrice), much less respond to it, which is why this thing took a month. Even then, I ran out of characters and time, but I’m counting on winning despite this.

Sorry, your grand majesty I'll make sure my posts are a better read for you in future. Anyway, don't expect my finisher to be up anytime soon as I'll be away for a week.

II. OBI-WAN KENOBI VS DARTH KRAYT

Newsflash: Performing Jedi exercises and drills, is not the same as using your Lightsaber in combat…

It doesn’t have to be for it to have the same benefits, because newsflash: Force users improve by doing drills. Or would you argue with a straight face Darth Maul was just naturally  redonkulously skilled with the saberstaff when he first laid his hands on one in 37 BBY and regressed for five years until TPM because he kept doing drills instead of fighting other lightsaber-wielding opponents?

When I complete my basic exercises, I power up my double-bladed lightsaber and practice maneuvers. My body is as strong as durasteel and as fluid as water. I shift from one position of attack to another. I fall on one knee and slash my lightsaber as I imagine cleaving my victim cleanly. I roll away and grip my lightsaber with both hands for a vertical sweep. I leap and twist and come down, leading with my left shoulder. I deliver a death blow and leap away, somersaulting in the air. I perform ten thousand slashes, lunges, attacks.

My lightsaber is no longer a separate weapon, but part of my arm. I move in the time it would take my opponent to blink. I move in the time he would take to raise his weapon. He would only see the space where I had been. He would feel the sudden shock of the blow that would knock him to the floor. I do these maneuvers a hundred times a day. I do them even though my body knows them intimately, even though I have not made a mistake or a misstep in years. I do them until the memory of the movement is part of the muscle itself. The goal of the Sith is to fight without thought.

And… no source has been provided for this, so there is no way for me to know if you’re bullshitting or not. To quote your very own words in your CaV with Ant: “You’ve failed at the simplest, most fundamental facet of empirical debating: presenting evidence for your claims.”

An explicit statement doesn’t have to be provided for every claim. It’s called inductive reasoning. Hett went to Tatooine soon after Order 66 was issued, and lived there as the chieftain of the Tuskens until his match with Kenobi. Who could he possibly have dueled with a lightsaber there, much less frequently enough to keep up his skills?

That was a generalised summary of the statements. I’m not implying anything.

No. Your statement was “I’d also like to point out that given the fact that Kenobi not having fought in a duel for ages is mentioned alongside a slew of other disadvantages for him/advantages for Hett we can logically infer that it’s intended to be a factor at play.” One of those “disadvantages for him/advantages for Hett” that is listed is ”Hett’s considerable skills with his own weapons.” If it’s an advantage for him, then it must mean you think Hett is more skilled than Kenobi. You can’t back out of this one.

No, it doesn’t lmao. “Fortunate” means “auspicious or favourable” (Source: Google) with “auspicious” meaning “conducive to success” (Source: Google). Conducive means (when postpositive, foll by to) “contributing, leading or tending” (Source Dictionary.com). Then we have “favourable” which means “to the advantage of someone” (Source: Google). All the text is saying, is that Kenobi maintaining his former reflexes was advantageous for him and that it contributed to his success not that it was wholly necessary unlike what you suggest. Ergo, Kenobi being able to defeat Hett at a much lower level and him maintaining his former reflexes being “fortunate” do not conflict, and thus the argument that Kenobi was holding back the whole time is still perfectly viable.

Fair. English is not my native language, so misunderstandings happen from time to time.

I was talking about his reflexes not having slowed. That doesn’t preclude his technical skill from having decreased though.

You mention “former prowess” in a general sense without specifying anything about reflexes exclusively. And had Kenobi’s technical skill decreased, he explicitly wouldn’t have maintained his former prowess.

The feat is impressive but not as good as it seems. Ben was stated to be running faster than any previous Force User when he reached 165m per second, and incredibly weak characters like Traitor Jacen, for example, have been able to outdo this. In New Jedi Order: Traitor Jacen runs 100m in an eyeblink (6). An eye takes roughly a third of a second to blink, meaning in a second Jacen could have run 300m which tops the speed Kenobi was running at. Kenobi was in no way “super amped”. You have almost no proof that Kenobi’s power increased to any significant degree.

This is a red herring.* Jacen Solo is an irrelevant factor here, not to mention you baselessly state he is “incredibly weak” in what I’m guessing is a lame attempt to bait your brother.**

*FALLACY COUNTER: 7
**BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 5

Seeing as you don’t buy Mustafar Vader being above base Anakin, meaning you don’t think Kenobi stalemating him puts him any higher than he was against Dooku, you probably think base Kenobi is still fodder to the Count. So when his power hasn’t “increased to any significant degree,” how is he able to bridge the gap between not only himself and Dooku but also Dooku and Palpatine by running faster than the latter? One moment you’re arguing base Kenobi is gets stomped by Dooku yet your argument here necessitates base Kenobi being relative to Sidious. Which is it? This is a blatant double standard.*

*FALLACY COUNTER: 8

Yes, but it stops Kenobi from launching a serious offensive.

Not really. All he has to eschew is hitting the vitals, which is common enough among Jedi. Doesn’t mean they’re always holding back.

Perhaps, the only credible point you’ve made so far. Credit where credit is due.

CONCESSION ACCEPTED COUNTER: 1

The difference is Anakin is an entirely different character from Kenobi. He’s constantly afraid and is much more susceptible to shit which is in actuality incredibly unlikely to affect him. Kenobi, on the other hand, has a much more logical and stable mind, and any worries he may have about the battle are more than likely legitimate concerns.

So Hett’s ”considerable skills with his own weapons” was a “legitimate concern”? This is the second time now you’ve admitted Hett’s nearly as if not more skilled than Kenobi.

I wouldn’t say Kenobi’s age was a factor, in all honesty, but merely something that could have come into play like the environment but didn’t end up doing so.

So it is a factor as I defined it. If Kenobi’s age is “a legitimate concern” and “could have come into play like the environment” then things would be exactly like I described in my second post: “In fact, age has never mattered unless the combatants didn’t have excessive Force reserves to draw on or if they were exceedingly close. If we treat this as an actual factor, I can’t see Hett as anything but a near-equal of Kenobi since for the latter’s age to come into play, his Force reserves would have to be depleted, and if Hett can do that he is obviously Kenobi’s peer.” So you’ve basically just conceded Hett must be close to Kenobi. In fact, in your own words, you conceded Kenobi can’t stomp Hett:

In short, while this fight definitely proves Kenobi can’t stomp Hett or anything of that nature.

Your own vague definition of what being on the same tier constitutes is irrelevant. That clause right there is what matters. So, concession accepted.*

*CONCESSION ACCEPTED COUNTER: 2

The fact that Kenobi didn’t end up killing Hett, doesn’t preclude him from having tried to in the last few moments of the duel. By this logic, Dooku wasn’t trying to kill Kenobi in ROTS when he threw him across the room, because Kenobi ended up knocked out rather than dead.

False equivalency.* Kenobi was in a position to end Hett’s life and chose not to. Dooku’s clear attempt to kill Kenobi simply failed.

*FALLACY COUNTER: 9

Speed also played into this “stomp,” (Force pushing Hett before he could raise a defence) which is entirely dependent on augmentation. So, no, this victory can be called a “stomp” rather than simply “opportunistic”.

The speed thing is debunked, so all my points about Kenobi’s victory stand.

III. DARTH KRAYT VS KARNESS MUUR

You haven’t proven either decrease was significant. The fact that Krayt was afraid that he would die soon, because his hold over the coral seeds was beginning to weaken doesn’t mean he’d decreased in power. As for his bout with Cade Skywalker, all you’ve proven is that he decreased afterward not that he did so significantly, and by all evidence the decrease between Legacy #1 and Legacy #2 shouldn’t be significant as I’ll detail below.

I have proved the decreases were significant: Krayt going from RotS Yoda+ to being challenged by Morne-Muur is proof in itself. That’s no different from your attempt to prove the decreases were miniscule: analyses of his showings. An explicit statement doesn’t have to be provided for everything.

Also, you blatantly don’t understand how the coral seeds function. They drain Krayt’s Force connection, and he holds off the infestation with the Force. So the more the infestation spreads, the lesser Krayt’s ability to ward it off becomes, and so he has to devote a bigger portion of his reserves to keep it at bay to prevent it from spreading faster. So not only is his Force power lesser 7 years after Legacy # 1, but his ability to use that power in combat is also lesser.

As you’ve detailed here, during Legacy Krayt and Cade have a fight, where Krayt is hard pressed and forced to go into stasis (10). Throughout the rest of Legacy, and most of Legacy: War Cade does not complete his Jedi training and does very little which would cause any kind of significant increase in power. All evidence of a power increase is absent, and in fact, there is evidence suggesting otherwise with Cade consistently, struggling with Darth Talon (11). Towards the end of Legacy: War, however, he achieves new mastery over the Force and stomps Darth Talon in their final duel (12) before finally engaging with Krayt (13). Krayt upon being reborn increases significantly in power and has now completely healed himself from the coral seeds killing him. The two engage each other, and then the comic cuts away. Krayt and Cade then duel for a significant period of time off screen, while the comic focuses on Antares and the rest of the Imperial Knights. When it cuts back Krayt finishes off Cade with Dark Transfer. Cade holds out against it for an extended period of time (Krayt has a really long speech) despite Krayt using his full power and attempting to kill him. The fact that Cade duels Krayt for an extended period of time, and resists his Dark Transfer for so long indicates he’s comparably powerful to Reborn Krayt. By all available evidence, Cade and Krayt are relative as of Legacy: War and Legacy which means Krayt’s increase in power can be gauged to be around the same as Cade’s. Given that the gap between Legacy #31 Krayt and Reborn Krayt is significantly greater than the gap between Legacy #1 Krayt and Legacy #31 Krayt, we can logically deduce that Cade’s power increase in the last few issues of Legacy is greater than Krayt’s decrease between Legacy #1 and Legacy #31. Am I to presume, that Cade somehow gaining new mastery over the Force jumped him from sub-Morne+Muur to Yoda tier? It’s highly doubtful, because of the hilarious gaps between the two (see my first post for details), and given that Anakin (despite having far greater potential than Cade and undergoing a similar process) didn’t increase in power nearly that much in ROTS during his transition between the LS and the DS despite having crushed his fears and removed all his mental barriers.

Prove to me Krayt was remotely serious in his last match with Cade. He begins by contemptuously tossing Cade aside with telekinesis and ragdolls his ass around as indicated by the blue trail his hand leaves. He sends a few sparks of lightning Cade’s way which, from what we see, don’t even touch Cade, so there is no way to know how Cade dealt with them. Then the fight goes on off-panel, meaning we have no idea what transpired during that time; your assertion that Cade and Krayt “duel for a significant period of time” is baseless.* All we see is that they are dueling after it; they could have started as soon as Krayt got done with the lightning or only a few seconds before we resume on their duel. It’s impossible to tell. For all we know, Krayt could have been ragdolling him some more.

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 6

Regardless, when we do resume, we see that Krayt hasn’t even drawn his second lightsaber. Why do you expect me to believe he’s going all-out when he doesn’t even bother utilizing his primary fighting style against Cade? And he still beats him in two panels, via speedblitz nonetheless. He’s barely within striking range, yet instantly closes the distance and pins Cade to the ground before the latter can react despite even signalling that the attack was coming with the glow in his hand. Cade literally got Agen Kolar’d. And what’s this about Cade “resisting” dark transfer? Guy looks completely helpless and can’t even hold onto his lightsaber. How do you know Krayt wasn’t simply killing him slowly because he was giving his speech?*

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 7

Cade then has the vision as he dies, and Krayt tells him to revive himself, which he does, and then cheap-shots Krayt.













All in all, I see no evidence Krayt was going all-out or that Cade is anywhere near him. Krayt doesn’t even bother drawing his second blade yet still speedblitzes Cade and thrashes him around with telekinesis. Cade only wins via a cheap-shot. In short, you can’t curtail Vong Krayt as of Legacy # 1 near Vector Krayt because you can’t prove the latter is near Reborn Krayt.

That’s great and all but once again even in combination with Krayt’s decrease, it doesn’t remotely compensate for the hilarious disparity between Yoda and Muur. Celeste is demonstrably comparably powerful to Muur using your logic as he takes over her body several times during the issues of Legacy they appear in (14), and she admits she is losing control over him (15). Hell, we can even use Krayt to prove that Muur is somewhat comparable. Celeste is weaker than a significantly weakened Krayt per your own words yet we know she is comparably powerful to Krayt (per the quote I provided) with Muur’s help, meaning Muur has to bridge the gap between her and Krayt, showing that at the very least there isn’t a gargantuan disparity between him and Morne.

I don’t see the point of this paragraph.

1% is a hilarious exaggeration. Anyway, Krayt not getting fried by Muur’s power doesn’t prove he’s uber powerful and greater than Morne+Muur or whatever, given that the blast was omnidirectional meaning he would have been hit by the barest fraction of the power of the blast. Please quantify the extent of Krayt’s weakness and the amount of power he withstood so we can compare the two. If you can’t we have a completely unquantifiable showing which doesn’t prove anything.

That’s not an omnidirectional attack. Simply because Morne-Muur encased themselves in a lightning cocoon and tossed everyone else briefly aside with telekinesis doesn’t mean the bulk of the attack wasn’t focused on Krayt, which it was. Morne-Muur’s hand gestures, and the fact that they kept on bombarding Krayt even after everyone else, including Azlyn, was out of the picture give it away. Karness Muur after more than doubling his power couldn’t kill a 1% Vong Krayt with his most powerful attack, and Krayt even managed to negate the worst of the lightning as I explained in my second post.

Yes, but the fact that it proposes such a possibility indicates the obvious intent is that Muur is comparably powerful to Krayt. There would be absolutely no reason to hype up Muur as better than Krayt if he’s in actuality far weaker him.

“Yes” - so you concede your original argument? Good.* The rest of the sentence is irrelevant as I was only contesting the idea the quote definitively proves Muur is more powerful than Krayt.

*CONCESSION ACCEPTED COUNTER: 3

Except the quote is literally talking about the events before Cade and the others try to kill Krayt so it can’t be referring to Krayt’s death and Muur threatening to possess Cade: “Darth Krayt may finally be captured and defeated in the trap set by Cade Skywalker and Jedi Master of old Celeste Morne. But Emperor Krayt might no longer be the most powerful Sith lord in the galaxy. Will Cade and Celeste have another Sith to defeat . . . or join?”

It’s an advertisement for the whole comic. It can absolutely refer to the ending without overtly alluding to it to avoid spoiling it to the reader. Like, what ”another Sith” would they ”join” prior to Muur threatening to possess Cade?

Chee doesn’t think any quotes are absolute or 100% binding (e.g. quotes from Sourcebooks and the like), yet we still accept them for the purposes of the debate so I don’t see why we shouldn’t hold a Publisher’s Summary to the same standard.

I’ve discussed the merits of what Chee has said with other members in talks unrelated to this debate, and going off of those, I must say this is actually a fair point. I’ll concede it.

Also, it’s irrelevant anyway given Insider states that Muur possessed powers which “outshone” Krayt’s.

That’s irrelevant too. It doesn’t mean Muur was more powerful than Krayt, merely that he ”outshone” everyone else when he blasted Krayt off the cliff: “But a third Force-user possessed powers that outshone them both. Karness Muur, an ancient Sith spirit, blasted Krayt with overpowering energy, sending him over a cliff to the rocks below.” Muur would definitely shine the brightest at the moment of his victory, but since said victory was achieved through a cheap-shot, it doesn’t mean he’s ultimately stronger than Krayt.

CONCLUSION

Now time to address your rather weak rebuttals to my scaling chain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Meanwhile I have provided actual accolades and feats (see the final section of my second post) which prove Dooku has what it takes to win this battle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

You have provided me with nothing to suggest Krayt is comparably powerful to Dooku.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyslexia

Your rebuttals to the Kenobi vs Dooku fight were less than adequate,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_disability

and you didn’t even begin to justify how Krayt could possibly be comparable to Yoda when he’s weaker than Muur+Morne as of Legacy #31.

The Master of the Foundry wrote:

Sorry, but I outright ignored several of your points, even if they were relevant to the debate. Reason being that I have very little patience for bullshit, and required copious amounts of willpower to even finish reading your post (I failed like thrice), much less respond to it, which is why this thing took a month. Even then, I ran out of characters and time, but I’m counting on winning despite this.

Sorry, your grand majesty I'll make sure my posts are a better read for you in future. Anyway, don't expect my finisher to be up anytime soon as I'll be away for a week.

Can we please skip the finishers since they're only 2500 characters each and you'll go away for a week?

@DarthAnt66 @DarthSkywalker0 @LSDMB

I was originally going to write a finisher, but I've decided I don't want to anymore given that I'm being pressured into writing one before I leave which is the one thing I don't want to be doing right now. Just move onto writing your posts out about how Az won judges while I go enjoy my week away.

The Master of the Foundry wrote:I was originally going to write a finisher, but I've decided I don't want to anymore given that I'm being pressured into writing one before I leave which is the one thing I don't want to be doing right now. Just move onto writing your posts out about how Az won judges while I go enjoy my week away.

Thanks for agreeing to it.

Yeah that went exactly as I thought it would.

The war of words on discord was leagues ahead of this in entertainment value.

OT-Excellent post Az.

Jesus Christ. A bit brutal don't ya think?

Like I don't think anyone deserved that level of butchery tbh

Anyway, Hp now that you have been fodderized by Az, prepare to be fodderized to me

HP has been, to put it mildly, very impolite toward me for the duration of this entire debate. I tried to be nice, but my patience reached its limit on this last post. His arguments weren't good, yet he continued to be smug and condescending without having earned the right to it. And I wasn't the only one who felt this way; more than one member has come to me complaining about HP's behavior here and in other threads. I felt like I needed to teach him a lesson.

However, we resolved this on Discord, and HP agreed to improve his conduct. Hopefully our interactions can be more amicable from now on.

I have known both of them from cv since their days as being riddlerfan and Arkham and both were really nice. Needless to say that changed by them joining the SW community on cv. Most of us(me included) tend to go off the rails if we see something we don't like. I think HP in particular got influenced by that but the thing to remember is that that happens maybe 1% of the time. The rest of the time most behave really well.

Excellent post by Az

LOTL wrote:I have known both of them from cv since their days as being riddlerfan and Arkham and both were really nice. 

Thanks bro.

All I have to say is: LOL

Congratulations on your victory @Azronger, thanks for the debate and I'm sorry for any hostilities between us. Should we ever do something like this again in future (we probably won't) I'll try to be less hostile and put out better quality posts that weren't rushed last minute.