SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Krayt (Azronger) vs Revan (DarthBane77)

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This thread is apart of a larger tournament between ten Suspect Insight members. You can read the other debates here:

• Preliminary round - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion) [Finished]
  
• Preliminary round - Darth Krayt (Azronger) vs Darth Tyranus (ArkhamAsylum3) [Finished]
  
• Round one - Arcann (XSupremeSkillzX) vs Darth Maul (ILS) [Finished]
  
• Round one - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist) [Finished]
  
• Round one - Darth Krayt (Azronger) vs Revan (DarthBane77)
  
• Round one - Darth Tenebrous (The Ellimist) vs Exar Kun (Decaf Wizard) [Finished]
  

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Darth Krayt as of Legacy # 1. Revan as of the end of Knights of the Old Republic.

Each introduction can take a maximum of one week to create. Each subsequent post can take a maximum of two weeks to respond. Tthere will be three posts per side. The first post, not including response or sourcing quotes, will have a maximum of 10,000 original characters, the second 17,500, and the third 25,000. Each debater will have a 2,500 finisher. The verdict will be decided by a panel of moderators.

This thread follows all default stipulations listed in the "Guidelines" thread. Additional rules are as follows:

• Feats take precedent over directly and indisputably contradicted statements.
  
• Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case must be made within the debate itself.
  
• All letter or number statistics ascribed to characters from C-Canon sources, including role-playing games and trading cards, are banned.
  

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Per the agreement of @darthbane77 and myself, I shall do the opener. Good luck.

Good luck to you both.

Excited to see this. Good luck to you both.

This looks like it’s gonna be epic

My arguments from my debate with ArkhamAsylum3 still stand. Before I address Revan, I feel it’s pertinent to revisit the core points and expound their significance for Darth Krayt.

1. Obi-Wan Kenobi vs. Count Dooku: this argument proposes Kenobi wasn't ragdoll fodder to Dooku and was legitimately able to compete with him in their duel onboard the Invisible Hand at the start of Revenge of the Sith. With it intact, Kenobi scales to all of the Count’s feats, accolades, and scaling.
   
2. Count Dooku vs. Darth Vader: this argument proposes Anakin Skywalker was able to obliterate Dooku once he drew on his anger; that his calm, Jedi self surpassed his Dooku-stomping self; and that his power was even greater on Mustafar in his duel against Obi-Wan Kenobi. With it intact, Mustafar Vader scales far beyond Darth Tyranus.
   
3. Darth Vader vs. Obi-Wan Kenobi: this argument proposes that while Kenobi was initially outmatched against Vader, his spiritual detachment during the fight elevated him to a level on par his former pupil, both martially and in the Force. With it intact, Kenobi scales to all of Skywalker’s feats, accolades, and scaling.
   
4. Obi-Wan Kenobi vs. A’Sharad Hett: this argument proposes that Kenobi had not declined at all during the two years between his fights against Vader and Hett, that his motivation to protect Luke boosted his power above what it had been against Vader, and that Hett legitimately held his own against and managed to pressure this amplified Kenobi. With it intact, Hett scales to all of Kenobi’s feats, accolades, and scaling.
   
5. A’Sharad Hett vs. Darth Krayt: this argument proposes that Hett grew massively after his duel with Kenobi from studying the dark side for several decades under XoXaan, then got another monumental increment from his experiences at the hands of the Yuuzhan Vong, and continued to study the Force for over 110 years leading up to Legacy # 1. With it intact, Krayt scales far beyond Hett.
   

If the entire chain goes unrefuted, Vong Krayt sits on top of a pile of rather impressive individuals, namely Yoda and Darth Sidious, who are only marginally superior to Mustafar Vader, as all of them are on tier 9 of George Lucas’ ranking system. Starwars.com states that “At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make the difference.” I’m not going to pretend there aren’t minute discrepancies with regards to who exactly is superior to who within the PT top tiers, but the general theme is that Sidious, Yoda, and Anakin are close, and that Kenobi was equalling Anakin on Mustafar; ergo, Kenobi should be the highest possible 8, and his familiarity with Anakin bridged the small gap between them. Him being motivated by Luke's survival boosts his ability further, and Hett can compete with that before growing exorbitantly in power up to Legacy # 1. If the Count Dooku vs. Darth Vader or Obi-Wan Kenobi vs. Darth Vader arguments are refuted, Krayt will still scale vastly above Darth Tyranus since Kenobi can't be stomped by and can greatly pressure him per the Obi-Wan Kenobi vs. Count Dooku argument, and Krayt as of Legacy # 1 is massively Obi-Wan's superior. Only if the Obi-Wan Kenobi vs. Count Dooku, Obi-Wan Kenobi vs. A'Sharad Hett, or A'Sharad Hett vs. Darth Krayt arguments are refuted, will I have to make new arguments in Krayt's favor.

With this mind, the figures relevant to Revan here are Yoda, Sidious, and Dooku. Yoda and Sidious are the most powerful Jedi and Sith ever, respectively, and equals/near-equals, as articulated in my debate with ArkhamAsylum3, placing them beyond Revan as of Knights of the Old Republic and the Sith Emperor - another superior of Revan - as of both the novel and the video game. Yoda also scales above Revan even as of The Phantom Menace per The Official Star Wars Fact File: "Alongside Mace Windu, with whom he served on the Jedi Council, Yoda was the most respected and most powerful Master ever to walk the corridors of the Jedi Temple." This ties into Tyranus in that he is close to Yoda in Attack of the Clones as articulated in ArkhamAsylum3's first post, making him, at the very least, an extremely good fight for KotOR Revan. More likely, however, is that Dooku is in fact Revan's superior, considering only a Jedi Master as strong as Yoda - hint: not Revan - could survive being bombarded with Dooku's Force powers per The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection # 3: "Dark side powers enabled Sith Lord Darth Tyranus (Count Dooku) to manipulate the Force at will, hurling objects or casting devastating energy bolts. Only a Jedi Master as powerful as Yoda could survive such an attack.". As should be obvious by now, Darth Krayt's scaling from all these individuals puts him immensely above Revan.

Your turn, @darthbane77

Nice opener even if it's mostly just recap.

Good opener.

Figurine collection not Vehicle

Greysentinel365 wrote:Figurine collection not Vehicle

Good catch.

So correction to everyone: I meant to say The Official Figurine Collection # 3 instead of The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection # 3. The quote comes from the former, not the latter.

Obi-Wan Kenobi vs. Count Dooku: this argument proposes Kenobi wasn't ragdoll fodder to Dooku and was legitimately able to compete with him in their duel onboard the Invisible Hand at the start of Revenge of the Sith. With it intact, Kenobi scales to all of the Count’s feats, accolades, and scaling.

In your debate with Arkham, he brought up Dooku’s duel with Kenobi and Anakin in S6 of TCW. I don’t believe you really addressed the topic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcXaicGvcvA&feature=youtu.be&t=37

The duel clearly demonstrates that Dooku was Kenobi’s superior, with Dooku outright overpowering Kenobi more than once, while also fighting Anakin off, simultaneously.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5707638-4916917056-giphy.gif

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5707651-0562464414-giphy.gif

There’s no evidence to suggest that Kenobi underwent any significant growth in power from the end of TCW to the beginning of RotS, and Kenobi has never undergone a massive Anakin-esque power boom before. The evidence and argument you have, if any at all, would have to be extremely convincing for you to be able to assert that Kenobi was Dooku’s equal in RotS.

The “Revenge of the Sith” novel also implies Dooku was considerably stronger than Kenobi. The novel notes that Dooku was already tiring near the start of the fight, prior to Anakin and Kenobi adopting their preferred forms (Soresu and Djem-So) while they were using Shien and Shii-Cho, respectively.

“However, only one death was in his plan, and this dumb-show was becoming tiresome. Not to mention tiring. The dark power that served him went only so far, and he was, after all, not a young man.”

-RotS Novel


Dooku’s breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker’s strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength—not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing—


-RotS Novel


We then see Dooku overpower Kenobi with the Force for the first time. No indication is given that Kenobi didn’t have any kind of Force defenses at the ready.

He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn’t have time to enjoy it.

-RotS Novel


The above, as it’s seen in the film.

https://youtu.be/eYT3ctPuVRw?t=88


The second time Dooku overpowers Kenobi

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5495285-2112468869-giphy.gif


I would also argue that Kenobi’s inability to defend himself from two separate Force attacks, almost back to back, is indicative of a rather significant disparity between the two. Consider the speed with which Dooku would have had to act in order to catch Kenobi off-guard on two separate occasions in the same duel. Either Kenobi is completely inept and utterly incapable of anticipating a Force based attack from a Sith Lord, or more likely, Dooku attacked too quickly for Kenobi to have been able to react in the first place. The speed differential exhibited there is, in itself, indicative of a significant gap in power between Dooku and Kenobi.


So even if Kenobi had no defenses (as you were arguing before), there’s still the matter of this being a Dooku who is already beginning to tire out.

On top of all of that, Anakin seems to attribute Dooku’s defeating Kenobi entirely to Dooku simply being more powerful than Kenobi.

“But for Anakin, in the fight there is only terror, and rage.


Only he stands between death and the two men he loves best in all the world, and he can no longer afford to hold anything back. That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freeze away his strength, to whisper to him that Dooku has beaten him before, that Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith—”

-RotS Novel


Anakin has fought Dooku alongside Kenobi several times throughout the Clone War, and each time, Dooku has proven to be superior to Kenobi. Anakin here clearly believes that Dooku was able to strike Kenobi down “seemingly without effort.” To add more to this...

“But Palpatine’s words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.”

-RotS Novel

Anakin’s doubts here do not include that Kenobi was manhandled by Dooku, of that, Anakin is absolutely certain. His doubts are centered around his fears that he can’t defeat Dooku himself.

The bottom line here is that TCW establishes Dooku was easily beyond Kenobi mere months prior to RotS, and there is no hard evidence to suggest that Kenobi underwent a massive boom in power in those months. There’s also the established fact that Dooku did this while he was tiring out, and is reinforced by Anakin’s belief that Dooku cast Kenobi aside purely due to his own undeniable superiority to Kenobi.

Darth Vader vs. Obi-Wan Kenobi: this argument proposes that while Kenobi was initially outmatched against Vader, his spiritual detachment during the fight elevated him to a level on par his former pupil, both martially and in the Force. With it intact, Kenobi scales to all of Skywalker’s feats, accolades, and scaling.

Kenobi’s victory over Anakin on Mustafar isn’t attributed to his power or his skill by any source that matters. Nick Gillard makes it clear that Kenobi’s victory was granted only through his familiarity with Skywalker’s mindset and fighting style, as well as Anakin’s own pride and overconfidence.

"Obi-Wan has gone up one level from Episode I to Episode III, but it’s a huge jump from one level to another. It’s not just about a style of fighting—it’s mental as well. Anakin has gone up probably four levels from Episode II to Episode III. So he’s gone beyond Obi-Wan, but he hasn’t gone beyond him mentally."


"Obi knows that Anakin is better than him, but because he taught him, he knows emotionally how he’s going to behave."


http://www.theforce.net/episode3/story/nick_gillard_talks_rots_game_92147.asp


https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7030238-anakinoverconfidence.jpg


Another reason given for Kenobi’s victory is explained by Sidious, who does not laud Kenobi’s skill or power, but attributes his victory to Kenobi’s single minded focus, his clearly visible singular goal, “kill Darth Vader.”

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7031777-kenobikillvadergoal2.png


“Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader” shows Vader echoing this same belief.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7031778-kenobikillvadergoal.png


There’s also the fact that Kenobi is never once said to have ever reached the tier 9 label, which Anakin did in fact reach.

"When I started, I figured that a youngling is a level one. And somebody like Kit Fisto - seven. I did take it to eight and nine, but not many people know that. Eight and nine is cheat. So Obi-Wan is eight. Yoda is nine. Mace is eight, bordering on nine. Anakin is nine."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2-iZNQrFBA&feature=youtu.be&t=908


Gillard even goes as far as noting *when* Anakin hits tier 9, but never once mentions when Kenobi has gone up in the list outside of his growth between TPM and RotS.

"Obi-Wan has gone up one level from Episode I to Episode III, but it’s a huge jump from one level to another. It’s not just about a style of fighting—it’s mental as well. Anakin has gone up probably four levels from Episode II to Episode III. So he’s gone beyond Obi-Wan, but he hasn’t gone beyond him mentally."

http://www.theforce.net/episode3/story/nick_gillard_talks_rots_game_92147.asp


"Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 -- and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented -- but he hasn't learned the mental side of it."


- Gillard in the article "Dueling Jedi"


and


"Sidious is a level nine (out of ten). On this film, Obi is eight-he's moved up-Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up with Sidious. Once you get to eight, you have a Pandora's box. You could go any way with it. The way not to go is the dark side. But it would tempt you, because that would jump you right past the others. So you need to arrive at level eight at the right age-not as young as Anakin. That young, the dark side is too tempting."

So it’s entirely clear that Anakin is far, far above Obi-Wan, being an entire tier separated. Unless you have a quote from Lucas, Nick Gillard, or someone else who helped on the tier lists, or has some inside insight, your sources and arguments are going to have to be absolutely groundbreaking to be able to even make the suggestion that Kenobi scales to anything Anakin is capable of doing, by virtue of Anakin being as powerful as Yoda or Sidious. What we ultimately have here are very defined reasons why Kenobi was able to defeat Anakin, reasons that are unique to Kenobi, as well as clearly defined canonical placements for both characters.

A’Sharad Hett vs. Darth Krayt: this argument proposes that Hett grew massively after his duel with Kenobi from studying the dark side for several decades under XoXaan, then got another monumental increment from his experiences at the hands of the Yuuzhan Vong, and continued to study the Force for over 110 years leading up to Legacy # 1. With it intact, Krayt scales far beyond Hett.

The issue with this argument is that it largely neglects or understates just how weak the Vong Coral Seeds made Krayt.

For example, Krayt, as of his takeover of the Empire, Krayt was barely capable of defeating just a few Imperial Knights.


https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7034054-kraytoverextendedhimself.png


In the above scan, Krayt and Wyyrlok discuss finding healing for Krayt. This conversation is held immediately after Krayt kills the four Imperial Knights, meaning the duel with said Knights is what prompted the conversation. Logically, this would lead one to assume that the fight with the Knights exhausted Krayt, which is supported by the following quote from “The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia”, which states that the effort to bring Fel’s Empire down left Krayt fatigued, and caused Krayt to reveal his condition to Wyyrlok. This is the exact scene displayed in the above scan, and lends further credence to the argument that fighting a few measly Imperial Knights was just about the cap of Krayt’s abilities..

"The effort to bring down Fel's Empire, however, left him badly fatigued, and he was forced to reveal to his second in command, Darth Wyyrlok, that his Yuuzhan Vong-enhanced body was failing."


This is supported by other sources as well.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7034056-sith-imperialwarkraytweak.png

""It’s a banner day for Emperor Darth Krayt, who hopes that Skywalker’s abilities will complete Krayt’s longtime quest to restore his own power.""


-Legacy 15 publisher summary

While I should preface that the quote immediately above is referencing Krayt circa 137 ABY, not 130 ABY (the version being used), it undeniably supports my argument that Krayt had been undergoing a constant decrease in power, and illustrates that this decrease in power continued even after 130 ABY.

What’s especially interesting about this, to me, is that the Imperial Knights are analogous to Jedi. The quotes that compare the Imperial Knights to the Jedi simply use the term “Jedi” referring to bulk of the Order, rather than notable individuals. Meaning these Knights aren’t much more impressive  than the average Jedi Knight.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11130/111300234/6306805-ik2.png

"Despite opinions to the contrary, Imperial Knights are every bit as capable in the use of the Force as their Jedi counterparts, though their training has considerably more martial focus."
--Legacy Era Campaign guide
"Tactically, Imperial Knights are similar to Jedi. They work well together, using their lightsabers redirect blaster bolts against their foes until they can close to melee range.

--Threats of the Galaxy

Closing:

1: Dooku is well beyond Kenobi. Demonstrated by TCW S6 and the RotS novel.

2: Vader was far beyond Kenobi during their duel, and it was only specific circumstances that allowed for Kenobi’s victory.

3: Krayt circa 130 ABY is barely capable of killing a few Imperial Knights that are the equivalent of an average Jedi Knight.

Krayt does not benefit from any of the lines of scaling that you proposed.

To clarify something, I didn’t address your “Count Dooku vs. Darth Vader” or your  “Hett vs Kenobi” argument because I believe them to be entirely irrelevant after addressing Kenobi vs Anakin and Kenobi vs Dooku.

---------------


[size=13]Opener:

Here, I’ll quickly highlight the basics of my arguments for Revan.

Revan vs Malak vs Exar Kun


Darth Malak wields power “far” greater than Exar Kun’s.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/6424636-2580550003-Darth.png

Validity:


https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/6424634-9674527593-Lelan.png

Exar Kun is the most powerful Sith Lord to live up to his time.

Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he [Exar Kun] was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the rise of the Empire.

- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Revan was able to defeat Darth Malak in single combat, despite being on an enormously powerful Dark Side nexus which would have weakened him.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/6163544-nexusquotes.png

Revan had also just fought a Forge amped Bastila Shan.

"Combat is fraught and frantic, but [ends with Revan's] victory."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Prima Guide

"The next time Revan encountered Bastila, she was a dark warrior filled with rage."

―Star Wars Databanks: Bastila Shan


As well as, before fighting Shan, fought through an army of the Star Forge’s droids, Sith soldiers, and Dark Jedi proclaimed to be “masters” of battlefield combat and “highly skilled” duelists.

The many wars of this era compel large numbers of Jedi to become experts in lightsaber and Force-related combat. Some become masters on the battlefield; others highly skilled duelists, able to battle dark Jedi and Sith in single combat.

[/size]


The fact that these Sith are classified as such is most interesting, implying that their battlefield experience has made them more dangerous than the average Jedi. On top of that, these Sith would benefit from the Dark Side nexus on the Star Forge.

So the point here is that Revan, despite being weakened by a Dark Side nexus, and having fought through a literal army of droids, soldiers, and Sith, was still able to defeat a Sith Lord who was far more powerful than Exar Kun, who was in turn, more powerful than any other Sith to have lived up to that point. Including but not limited to, Marka Ragnos, Freedon Nadd, and the Exiles.


Exar Kun vs Thon

Exar Kun is far more powerful than any of his Jedi contemporaries.

"Kun was far more powerful than any one other Jedi of the time, a combined force had defeated him."

-Jedi Academy Sourcebook

This puts Exar Kun above the likes of Master Thon, an immensely powerful Jedi Master capable of indefinitely holding sway over a massively powerful Dark Side nexus, indefinitely.

Master Thon binds to Lake Naath, Sith spirits and dark side energy so powerful that they threatened to consume the entire sector Ambria was located in. Meaning Thon has the power to dominate what amounts to several planets’ worth of Dark Side power.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7017579-thonambria.png

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7034138-thonholdsdarkness.png

Closing:

Revan scales far above the likes of Exar Kun and Thon. This is a level of power that Krayt has simply never demonstrated being capable of using.

On top of this, Revan was able to slaughter his way through Sith who are hyped/implied to be greater than the average Jedi, and then fight Bastila Shan and Darth Malak back to back. Conversely, Darth Krayt was left exhausted after fighting only a few Imperial Knights, who are not implied or otherwise stated to be superior to an average Jedi Knight. Given there’s no reason to assume the average Jedi of the Legacy era is superior to the average Jedi of the KotOR era (the opposite is actually true) it can be safely assumed that Revan and Krayt’s performances against the “average” level Force users of their respective eras is evidence of a disparity between the two..

Conclusion? Revan circa KotOR is far more powerful than Vong Armored Darth Krayt.

(Character Count: 9511)

@Azronger, your move.

Solid work, DB! I really liked your post.

Good post

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:Solid work, DB! I really liked your post.

Thanks, I appreciate it.

Although I admit I disagree with a lot of it, this was a truly remarkable post.

MasterCilghal wrote:Although I admit I disagree with a lot of it, this was a truly remarkable post.

Many thanks.

Excellent post. Nice to see you advocating for Dooku>>Kenobi.

Looking good DB.

DB77 opening strong. I look forward to Azronger's rebuttal.

@darthbane77

Character count excluding quotes: 9100 / 17500

I. REVAN’S SCALING

Revan scales far above the likes of Exar Kun and Thon. This is a level of power that Krayt has simply never demonstrated being capable of using.

Cade Skywalker casually throws a rather big ship a great distance (Legacy # 5). He did this while high on death sticks, which dampened his connection to the Force (Legacy # 3). The Jedi then remove the death sticks out of his system and re-train him in the ways of the Force (Legacy # 11). Cade also receives additional training from the Sith (Legacy # 17). He is put into the Embrace of Pain where he learns to focus his anger into a weapon of the dark side (Legacy # 18), as can be seen from his prior failure and consequent success to perceive just how messed up Darth Krayt’s body truly is (Legacy # 19). He should thus be far more powerful when he got stalemated by Darth Stryfe in a telekinetic war than when he tossed the ship (Legacy # 31). The gap between Stryfe and Krayt is detailed in my third post to ArkhamAsylum3.

I might as well say “This is a level of power [Revan] has never demonstrated being capable of using” like you did. Except that because the feats in the exhibits are entirely different in nature to Thon’s and therefore fundamentally disparate, you can’t say one is superior to the other. And besides that, I have issues with the way you’ve presented Thon’s feat.

This puts Exar Kun above the likes of Master Thon, an immensely powerful Jedi Master capable of indefinitely holding sway over a massively powerful Dark Side nexus, indefinitely.

Master Thon binds to Lake Naath, Sith spirits and dark side energy so powerful that they threatened to consume the entire sector Ambria was located in. Meaning Thon has the power to dominate what amounts to several planets’ worth of Dark Side power.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7017579-thonambria.png

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7034138-thonholdsdarkness.png

1. I’m not sure if you’re implying Thon was continuously exerting himself to keep the Sith spirits trapped, but if so, that’s blatantly untrue as the dark side remained trapped in Lake Natth ”forever”, even thousands of years after his death.



The Jedi had once tried to cleanse Ambria of its foul taint, but the power of the dark side had permanently scarred the world. Unable to purify it, they succeeded only in concentrating and confining the dark side in a single source: Lake Natth. The homesteaders brave enough to endure Ambria's desolate environs gave the lake and its poisoned waters a wide, wide berth. Of course Bane had made his camp right on its shores.


2. What is even meant by ”consume” in this context? Physically eating the system? Killing all life there? Assimilating the physical matter into their being? We don’t really know what the Sith spirits were even going to do, and we have no timeframe for it - that they ”threatened” to consume the system doesn’t mean they could have done so instantaneously; for all we know it might have taken them hundreds of years to accomplish.

To say that Thon can “dominate what amounts to several planets’ worth of Dark Side power” is incredibly misleading nor does it translate to combat in a way in which Revan would scale off of it. The only way to determine the winner between him and Krayt is to find a common reference point to which they both scale, which is what I did with Dooku, Yoda, and Sidious, and you did with the Imperial Knights. But I again take issue with your argument.

The issue with this argument is that it largely neglects or understates just how weak the Vong Coral Seeds made Krayt.

For example, Krayt, as of his takeover of the Empire, Krayt was barely capable of defeating just a few Imperial Knights.


https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7034054-kraytoverextendedhimself.png


In the above scan, Krayt and Wyyrlok discuss finding healing for Krayt. This conversation is held immediately after Krayt kills the four Imperial Knights, meaning the duel with said Knights is what prompted the conversation. Logically, this would lead one to assume that the fight with the Knights exhausted Krayt, which is supported by the following quote from “The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia”, which states that the effort to bring Fel’s Empire down left Krayt fatigued, and caused Krayt to reveal his condition to Wyyrlok. This is the exact scene displayed in the above scan, and lends further credence to the argument that fighting a few measly Imperial Knights was just about the cap of Krayt’s abilities..

Krayt stomped the Knights. Him having poor stamina doesn’t mean he was having difficulty with them, at all. And he only got burned out after he stopped exerting himself; he can keep up a fight for far longer than a few seconds even seven years later when his condition is much worse against Cade Skywalker. The fatigue only catches up to him after the fight is over, which is completely normal if you’ve ever heard of adrenaline. This doesn’t cap Krayt in the slightest.

This is supported by other sources as well.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7034056-sith-imperialwarkraytweak.png

Your own source says the coral seeds only began to consume him towards the end of the Sith-Imperial War (around Legacy # 1), meaning they hadn’t affected him prior to that. This helps my argument and actively damages yours.

""It’s a banner day for Emperor Darth Krayt, who hopes that Skywalker’s abilities will complete Krayt’s longtime quest to restore his own power.""


-Legacy 15 publisher summary

While I should preface that the quote immediately above is referencing Krayt circa 137 ABY, not 130 ABY (the version being used), it undeniably supports my argument that Krayt had been undergoing a constant decrease in power, and illustrates that this decrease in power continued even after 130 ABY.

That quote in no way indicates he had been losing power before 130 ABY, only that he had wanted to restore his power for a long time as of 137 ABY. A “long time” doesn’t have to be longer than seven years.

What’s especially interesting about this, to me, is that the Imperial Knights are analogous to Jedi. The quotes that compare the Imperial Knights to the Jedi simply use the term “Jedi” referring to bulk of the Order, rather than notable individuals. Meaning these Knights aren’t much more impressive  than the average Jedi Knight.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11130/111300234/6306805-ik2.png

"Despite opinions to the contrary, Imperial Knights are every bit as capable in the use of the Force as their Jedi counterparts, though their training has considerably more martial focus."
--Legacy Era Campaign guide
"Tactically, Imperial Knights are similar to Jedi. They work well together, using their lightsabers redirect blaster bolts against their foes until they can close to melee range.

--Threats of the Galaxy

You have no proof those Imperial Knights were average (one of them was of Skywalker descent), not that it matters since Krayt didn’t struggle with them in any capacity. The conclusion you’re drawing doesn’t even make any sense within the context of the rest of the story: just look at how far Krayt scales in his own series and there’s no way he would have trouble with average Jedi Knights. You cannot establish a comparison between Revan and Krayt based on that. The comparison I drew with Dooku, Yoda, and Sidious, however, has gone unrefuted aside from a few jabs at Kenobi.

II. DARTH KRAYT’S KENOBI SCALING

In your debate with Arkham, he brought up Dooku’s duel with Kenobi and Anakin in S6 of TCW. I don’t believe you really addressed the topic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcXaicGvcvA&feature=youtu.be&t=37

The duel clearly demonstrates that Dooku was Kenobi’s superior, with Dooku outright overpowering Kenobi more than once, while also fighting Anakin off, simultaneously.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5707638-4916917056-giphy.gif

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5707651-0562464414-giphy.gif

There’s no evidence to suggest that Kenobi underwent any significant growth in power from the end of TCW to the beginning of RotS, and Kenobi has never undergone a massive Anakin-esque power boom before. The evidence and argument you have, if any at all, would have to be extremely convincing for you to be able to assert that Kenobi was Dooku’s equal in RotS.

If I can prove Obi-Wan Kenobi and Darth Tyranus were rivals onboard the Invisible Hand in Revenge of the Sith, that is evidence in itself and I won’t need to address the duel that took place months before Revenge of the Sith.

The “Revenge of the Sith” novel also implies Dooku was considerably stronger than Kenobi. The novel notes that Dooku was already tiring near the start of the fight, prior to Anakin and Kenobi adopting their preferred forms (Soresu and Djem-So) while they were using Shien and Shii-Cho, respectively.

“However, only one death was in his plan, and this dumb-show was becoming tiresome. Not to mention tiring. The dark power that served him went only so far, and he was, after all, not a young man.”

-RotS Novel


Dooku’s breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker’s strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength—not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing—


-RotS Novel


We then see Dooku overpower Kenobi with the Force for the first time. No indication is given that Kenobi didn’t have any kind of Force defenses at the ready.

He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn’t have time to enjoy it.

-RotS Novel


The above, as it’s seen in the film.

https://youtu.be/eYT3ctPuVRw?t=88


The second time Dooku overpowers Kenobi

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5495285-2112468869-giphy.gif


I would also argue that Kenobi’s inability to defend himself from two separate Force attacks, almost back to back, is indicative of a rather significant disparity between the two. Consider the speed with which Dooku would have had to act in order to catch Kenobi off-guard on two separate occasions in the same duel. Either Kenobi is completely inept and utterly incapable of anticipating a Force based attack from a Sith Lord, or more likely, Dooku attacked too quickly for Kenobi to have been able to react in the first place. The speed differential exhibited there is, in itself, indicative of a significant gap in power between Dooku and Kenobi.


So even if Kenobi had no defenses (as you were arguing before), there’s still the matter of this being a Dooku who is already beginning to tire out.

Kenobi was tired as well as articulated in my response to ArkhamAsylum3. Dooku, however, replenished his Force reserves just prior to telekinetically pushing Kenobi in the very quote you cited. You wouldn’t have brought up the Count’s fatigue if you didn’t think it was significant, so the same standard should be applied to Kenobi too. A fresh Dooku pushing an exhausted Kenobi isn’t valid evidence of him being able to do so to a fresh Kenobi.

Even if it were, these sort of defensive lapses are extremely common. Allow me cite my favorite example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HblR0sMoh3s&t=12m35s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gz6SsEaEY70&t=26m55s



The apprentice understood that, until this moment, they had never truly fought as equals. His Master had either held back, or he himself had capitulated. Now, for the first time, they would see each other's true potential. Where Darth Vader was strong and relentless, he was fast and sly. And there were ways to fight that didn't involve lightsabers. Loose objects, accelerated to killing speeds by the Force, became projectiles that converged from all directions. Invisible fists clutched for throats or punched with the power of pile drivers. Floors tipped underfoot; severed beams stabbed like javelins; overloaded circuits exploded.

"You are weak," the apprentice said as his former Master launched a second series of bone-crushing blows, each one of which he blocked with elegant precision.

Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses.

The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master's defenses, testing them to their limits.

"You thought I was dead," he said, letting that small triumph spur his determination to new heights. Their lightsabers danced, blurring and sweeping and shedding sparks in a way that would have been beautiful had their intent not been so deadly. The apprentice felt the wild, joyous energies of the dark side flowing through him and he resisted its call, seeking a better way to finish the job.

They fought back and forth across the observation dome.

"I understand you now," he said, still trying to goad his former Master into breaking his concentration. "You killed my father and kidnapped me from Kashyyyk, not just to be your apprentice, but to be a son to you. Was that how your father treated you?"

The intensity of Darth Vader's attack redoubled. "I have no father."

The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near, but he felt no pain. He, on the other hand, had definitely struck a nerve.

Glancing over Darth Vader's shoulder, he saw the Emperor watching the duel, his face screwed up in malevolent delight. And the apprentice understood. A better way to kill. . .

Not out of hatred. Whatever lay beneath that black mask, it wasn't beauty or happiness. Only ugliness and pain would hide itself away for so long. Hatred would not be enough to turn the tables on Darth Vader.

Reaching out with his left hand, he blasted his Master with Sith lightning. That broke the momentum of the furious onslaught, enabling him to stand and catch his breath.

"I don't need to hate you in order to beat you," he gasped. "That's something I will teach you now."

"You can teach me nothing," Darth Vader's leaden voice intoned. One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice's throat closed tight.

He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room.


Galen Marek is explicitly noted to be faster than Darth Vader but both are equally formidable combatants overall at the start of the fight. Despite this, Marek gets telekinetically pushed and choked more than once, even at the end when his power is beginning to eclipse Vader’s. The lore is full of instances like this, making it clear successful Force pushes aren’t always indicative of greater speed or power. In short, you have no proof Dooku straight up ripped through Kenobi’s active Force wall in either case.

And even if speed is the deciding factor, it’s quite baseless to suggest it denotes “a significant gap in power.” Dooku might literally have been just a millisecond ahead of Kenobi, which would honestly prove nothing.

However, since you’ve emphasized speed so much, Kenobi moving “straight upward over Dooku’s head so fast it seemed he’d vanished”; his “blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike”; and parrying “every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper” (link) should serve as sufficient evidence of his parity with the Count at the start of Revenge of the Sith.

On top of all of that, Anakin seems to attribute Dooku’s defeating Kenobi entirely to Dooku simply being more powerful than Kenobi.

“But for Anakin, in the fight there is only terror, and rage.


Only he stands between death and the two men he loves best in all the world, and he can no longer afford to hold anything back. That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freeze away his strength, to whisper to him that Dooku has beaten him before, that Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith—”

-RotS Novel


Anakin has fought Dooku alongside Kenobi several times throughout the Clone War, and each time, Dooku has proven to be superior to Kenobi. Anakin here clearly believes that Dooku was able to strike Kenobi down “seemingly without effort.” To add more to this...

“But Palpatine’s words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.”

-RotS Novel

Anakin’s doubts here do not include that Kenobi was manhandled by Dooku, of that, Anakin is absolutely certain. His doubts are centered around his fears that he can’t defeat Dooku himself.

Yeah, ”seemingly,” meaning Dooku’s victory only appeared effortless to Anakin, but that doesn’t mean in actuality it took no effort for Dooku to incapacitate Obi-Wan. Even if it did, this is explained by the fact that since Kenobi didn’t manage to erect his Force barriers in time, Dooku would only have had to exert the amount of force required to hurl a normal adult human male body a dozen meters and render them unconscious, which is obviously an effortless task for someone of the Count’s power as articulated in my third post to ArkhamAsylum3. This does not mean Dooku can actually effortlessly defeat Obi-Wan; the evidence I have provided proves otherwise.

Kenobi’s victory over Anakin on Mustafar isn’t attributed to his power or his skill by any source that matters. Nick Gillard makes it clear that Kenobi’s victory was granted only through his familiarity with Skywalker’s mindset and fighting style, as well as Anakin’s own pride and overconfidence.

"Obi-Wan has gone up one level from Episode I to Episode III, but it’s a huge jump from one level to another. It’s not just about a style of fighting—it’s mental as well. Anakin has gone up probably four levels from Episode II to Episode III. So he’s gone beyond Obi-Wan, but he hasn’t gone beyond him mentally."


"Obi knows that Anakin is better than him, but because he taught him, he knows emotionally how he’s going to behave."


http://www.theforce.net/episode3/story/nick_gillard_talks_rots_game_92147.asp


https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7030238-anakinoverconfidence.jpg


Another reason given for Kenobi’s victory is explained by Sidious, who does not laud Kenobi’s skill or power, but attributes his victory to Kenobi’s single minded focus, his clearly visible singular goal, “kill Darth Vader.”

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7031777-kenobikillvadergoal2.png


“Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader” shows Vader echoing this same belief.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7031778-kenobikillvadergoal.png


There’s also the fact that Kenobi is never once said to have ever reached the tier 9 label, which Anakin did in fact reach.

"When I started, I figured that a youngling is a level one. And somebody like Kit Fisto - seven. I did take it to eight and nine, but not many people know that. Eight and nine is cheat. So Obi-Wan is eight. Yoda is nine. Mace is eight, bordering on nine. Anakin is nine."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2-iZNQrFBA&feature=youtu.be&t=908


Gillard even goes as far as noting *when* Anakin hits tier 9, but never once mentions when Kenobi has gone up in the list outside of his growth between TPM and RotS.

"Obi-Wan has gone up one level from Episode I to Episode III, but it’s a huge jump from one level to another. It’s not just about a style of fighting—it’s mental as well. Anakin has gone up probably four levels from Episode II to Episode III. So he’s gone beyond Obi-Wan, but he hasn’t gone beyond him mentally."

http://www.theforce.net/episode3/story/nick_gillard_talks_rots_game_92147.asp


"Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 -- and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented -- but he hasn't learned the mental side of it."


- Gillard in the article "Dueling Jedi"


and


"Sidious is a level nine (out of ten). On this film, Obi is eight-he's moved up-Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up with Sidious. Once you get to eight, you have a Pandora's box. You could go any way with it. The way not to go is the dark side. But it would tempt you, because that would jump you right past the others. So you need to arrive at level eight at the right age-not as young as Anakin. That young, the dark side is too tempting."

So it’s entirely clear that Anakin is far, far above Obi-Wan, being an entire tier separated. Unless you have a quote from Lucas, Nick Gillard, or someone else who helped on the tier lists, or has some inside insight, your sources and arguments are going to have to be absolutely groundbreaking to be able to even make the suggestion that Kenobi scales to anything Anakin is capable of doing, by virtue of Anakin being as powerful as Yoda or Sidious. What we ultimately have here are very defined reasons why Kenobi was able to defeat Anakin, reasons that are unique to Kenobi, as well as clearly defined canonical placements for both characters.

You’ve offered nothing substantive here. You’ve just taken something I already acknowledged in my opener - “Kenobi was equalling Anakin on Mustafar; ergo, Kenobi should be the highest possible 8, and his familiarity with Anakin bridged the small gap between them” - and tried to spin it so it somehow refutes my argument.

As for George Lucas’s opinion, here is a scene filmed by him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzXGYNnYmgI&t=80s

And here is a paragraph from a script written by him:

OBI-WAN and ANAKIN lock sabers. OBI-WAN puts out his hand to use the Force to push ANAKIN away. ANAKIN puts out his hand to block OBI-WAN. Both combatants are blasted backwards onto the control panels.


And here is a paragraph from a novel line-edited and approved by him:

Obi-Wan backflipped from the conduit to a coupling nexus of the main collection plant; when Anakin flew in pursuit, Obi-Wan leapt again. They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth.


That Obi-Wan knew Anakin’s lightsaber fighting style and moves intimately doesn’t invalidate his telekinetic stalemate with Skywalker since it’s a direct contest of power, not skill or technique. As I said, this can easily be explained if Obi-Wan is the highest possible eight and Anakin the lowest possible nine; if Obi-Wan has a power level of 8999 and Anakin 9000, the gap would be so microbial as to be practically nonexistent.

III. DARTH KRAYT’S NEW SCALING

""It’s a banner day for Emperor Darth Krayt, who hopes that Skywalker’s abilities will complete Krayt’s longtime quest to restore his own power.""


-Legacy 15 publisher summary

You really shouldn’t have used a publisher’s summary.









Darth Bane has four of them lauding him as the most powerful Sith Lord and dark side user in history. Bane > Vitiate > KotOR Revan according to the standard you set. Peak Bane then struggles with Darth Andeddu.

However, it was possible to circumvent the gatekeeper - but only by one strong enough to survive the attempt. If Bane's will faltered, or if the power of Andeddu's Holocron was more than he could handle, then his mind would be destroyed. His identity would be devoured by the talisman, leaving his body a mindless husk. It was a desperate gamble, but there was no other way to get what he needed. Not in time to help him against Zannah.

"If you will not give me what I want," he shouted at the gatekeeper, "then I will take it!"

Reaching out with the Force, he plunged his awareness into the depths of the pyramid's inner workings as the gatekeeper let loose a howl of impotent rage. Thrusting his consciousness directly into the capstone, Bane let his will invade the small four-sided talisman just as he himself had invaded the stronghold of Andeddu's cult back on Prakith.

For a brief instant he could feel the burning inferno of power trapped within threatening to consume his identity. Bane welcomed the pain, feeding on it and transforming it along with all the frustration and anger he had built up over the past four days into a raging, swirling storm of dark side energy. Then, bit by bit, he began to impose order on the chaos, bending it to his will.

Using the Force, Bane began to make subtle adjustments to the Holocron's crystal matrix. He began to manipulate the arrangement of the filaments, twisting, turning, and shifting them with subtle, immeasurable adjustments as he worked his way deeper and deeper into the data in pursuit of what he sought. In many ways it was like slicing a secure computer network, only a million times more complex.

With each adjustment, the gatekeeper's image flickered and cried out, but Bane was oblivious to the simulation's artificial suffering. For several hours he continued his work, his body perspiring heavily, until he finally found what he sought: the ritual of essence transference; Andeddu's secret of eternal life.

With one final push of the Force, he reached out with his mind and seized what he had been searching for. With the aid of the gatekeeper the information would have taken weeks to absorb and learn. Bane, however, had gone right to the source. The knowledge streamed directly from the Holocron into his mind, raw and unfiltered. Thousands of images flooded his consciousness, an explosion of sights, sounds, and thoughts that caused him to drop the Holocron to the floor, breaking the connection.


Over a millennium later, Darth Wyyrlok III likewise makes a voyage to Andeddu’s keep. The intervention of one of Andeddu’s worshippers awakens the ancient Sith, who engages Wyyrlok.















When Bane began his assault, he knew what he was getting into; he knew this would be a battle of the minds and should he fail, his will would be extinguished: “If Bane's will faltered, or if the power of Andeddu's Holocron was more than he could handle, then his mind would be destroyed.” Despite this, the very first thing that happens is Bane starts losing: “For a brief instant he could feel the burning inferno of power trapped within threatening to consume his identity.” Only shortly after does he begin to overwhelm Andeddu, but even then, very slowly: “Then, bit by bit, he began to impose order on the chaos, bending it to his will.” In contrast, Andeddu took Wyyrlok completely by surprise with his telepathic attack. However, as soon as Wyyrlok understood the illusion for what it was, he dispelled it instantly. Wyyrlok then reverses Andeddu’s own attack back on him, and Andeddu isn’t even aware of this. He has no idea what’s happening; he thinks Wyyrlok is physically destroying his library when it was all taking place inside his head. Wyyrlok was able to completely hijack Andeddu’s psyche with a snap of his fingers, from a point of disadvantage, and then convince Andeddu of his own death in mere moments, killing him. Had Wyyrlok gone in prepared and expecting a mental confrontation like Bane did, he would have immediately stomped Andeddu.

Andeddu managing to turn the tables on Bane despite not expecting a telepathic attack while Bane went in prepared speaks of relativity on his part; Bane overwhelming him ”bit by bit” even when he had the upper hand reinforces this notion. Therefore, Wyyrlok effortlessly deflecting Andeddu’s Force lightning shows he would repel anything Bane throws at him with similar impunity, and his utter mindrape of Andeddu proves he would obliterate Bane.

Of course, Wyyrlok’s powers are still ”far outstripped” by Darth Krayt’s as detailed in my third post to ArkhamAsylum3.

CONCLUSION

You’ve not succeeded debunking any of my arguments from my debate with ArkhamAsylum3, and your own comparison between Krayt and Revan was addressed by myself. On top of which, I revealed another way in which Krayt scales above Revan. I currently have two main arguments on the table, both of which you’ll have to get past to make any progress, while you have none.

Solid post.

Once again this is basically Az pulling a gideon and turning his opponents statements against them. I love it.

Excellent post Az.