SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Krayt (Azronger) vs Darth Tyranus (ArkhamAsylum3)

THIS DEBATE HAS FINISHED. THE VICTOR, @AZRONGER, WILL ADVANCE TO THE NEXT ROUND.



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This thread is apart of a larger tournament between ten Suspect Insight members. You can read the other debates here:

• Preliminary round - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion) [Finished]
  
• Preliminary round - Darth Krayt (Azronger) vs Darth Tyranus (ArkhamAsylum3) [Finished]
  
• Round one - Arcann (XSupremeSkillzX) vs Darth Maul (ILS) [Finished]
  
• Round one - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist) [Finished]
  
• Round one - Darth Krayt (Azronger) vs Revan (DarthBane77)
  
• Round one - Darth Tenebrous (The Ellimist) vs Exar Kun (Decaf Wizard) [Finished]
  

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Darth Krayt as of Legacy # 1. Darth Tyranus as of Episode III - Revenge of the Sith.

Each introduction can take a maximum of one week to create. Each subsequent post can take a maximum of two weeks to respond. There will be three posts per side. The first post, not including response or sourcing quotes, will have a maximum of 10,000 original characters, the second 17,500, and the third 25,000. Each debater will have a 2,500 finisher. The verdict will be decided by a panel of moderators.

This thread follows all default stipulations listed in the "Guidelines" thread. Additional rules are as follows:

• Feats take precedent over directly and indisputably contradicted statements.
  
• Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case must be made within the debate itself.
  
• All letter or number statistics ascribed to characters from C-Canon sources, including role-playing games and trading cards, are banned.
  

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Az gonna win

@NotAA3

Transfer your post from Comic Vine to here.

Alright, will do so later today. Not sure if I want everyone to be blinded by reading it because of how horrific it was though...

At least you admit it sucked.

Let us begin. Here's my opener folks.

1) Preface

In regards to this CaV, I’d like to start off by noting that this is just something I wrote up last minute due to lack of motivation to post so it probably isn’t my best. Hopefully, subsequent posts from me will be better though. Anyway onto talking about the actual post. My opener will be mainly comprised of a scaling chain so we can get a direct comparison between the two characters and won’t posses much in the way of actual feats for Dooku. Actual feats for Dooku will be included in my next post and the one after. With that out of the way let’s get into this.

2) Scaling

A) Karness Muur

Karness Muur was established to be more powerful than Darth Krayt during the events of Legacy by the solicitation for Legacy Issue 31 (1). Karness Muur was one of the original Exile’s who used the Star Map (a device imbued with the Dark Side which could locate the Star Forge). The Exiles used the Star Map as their main source of power. Ajunta Pall stated that the Star Map was “where our power came from” and that it was The Exiles “oldest secret” which possessed “so much power”. He also implies that the reason The Exiles were stronger than the previous fallen Jedi was because of the Star Map: “We were not the first to fall to the dark side but we had more power than those before us. It came from elsewhere.” And finally we have him suggesting that the Star Map increased The Exiles hunger for power which led to Civil War: “I see your power, your pride. You will find the old place, the dark place, and you will regret it.” Overall it seems The Exiles (including Muur who is more powerful than Krayt) were very much in awe of the Star Maps power which leads me onto my next point.

(1) “But Emperor Krayt might no longer be the most powerful Sith lord in the galaxy. Will Cade and Celeste have another Sith to defeat... or join?”

B) The Star Forge

Both the Star Forge and the Star Map were created by self-repairing Rakatan technology imbued by the Dark Side (in other words they were created in the same way) only the Star Map is an incredibly small device (link) whereas the Star Forge is massive (link) meaning it logically possess power infinitely greater than the Star Map given it’s infinitely greater in terms of scale.

C) KOTOR Revan

At the end of KOTOR Revan defeated Darth Malak on the Star Forge (link) after fighting through armies of Dark Jedi when the latter had gained total mastery over it. Darth Malak due to having 8 Jedi captives to drain could replenish his life energy multiple times over meaning Revan had to defeat him several consecutive times suggesting he is a far more powerful combatant than Malak is even with the Star Forge. This suggests Revan is more powerful than The Exiles given he can defeat Malak multiple times while the latter is amped by the Star Forge’s energy while The Exile's were in awe of the power of an artifact infinitely smaller than the Star Forge.

To establish my chain so far:

KOTOR Revan> SF Malak>Karness Muur>Darth Krayt.

D) Yoda

Yoda is factually established as the most powerful Jedi in history meaning he surpasses all Jedi iterations of Revan including Revan Reborn who is significantly more powerful than his KOTOR self meaning Yoda is also significantly more powerful than KOTOR Revan:

The avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known…

E) Count Dooku

During AOTC while exhausted (link) Count Dooku held off Yoda for 40 seconds (link). The AOTC Novelization notes Dooku “held strong” and was “parrying brilliantly” against Yoda. After the duel, Yoda was noted to be tired by several sources (link) and he struggled massively to hold up a 10m steel pillar (link) establishing Dooku really made Yoda work for the victory meaning he’s likely comparable to or above KOTOR Revan or Revan Reborn putting him miles beyond Darth Krayt.

In other words:

Yoda~Dooku=>Novel Revan>KOTOR Revan>SF Malak>Karness Muur>Darth Krayt.

3) Conclusion

Dooku scales so laughably beyond Krayt it’s not even funny meaning any an all arguments you make are probably going to be redundant and false. I can’t wait for the inevitable Luke, Wredd, Bane, Caedus and Kenobi scaling which I will no doubt have to refute next post.

Your move Azronger.

Spoiler:

Lmao. I've been out all day for gosh sake which is why I couldn't post. I was gonna do it when I got home.

KEK.

I just read through this and it's even worse than I originally thought. Why the hell did I switch between "Exiles" and "Exile's" over the course of the post lol?

TAEP

TAEP

Contrary to convention, I will only start poking holes in Arkham’s argument in my second post, as the character limit for the opener is only 10 000. My own case for Darth Krayt contains around 7 900 (when excluding this intro and quotes), so if I had chosen to refute his, I would not have had any space to provide my argument in detail. And what kind of opener would this be if I didn’t even explain why my character wins? I hope my decision does not diminish this post’s value in the judges’ eyes so long as I deliver a robust counter to Arkham’s points with the follow-up.

I. COUNT DOOKU VS OBI-WAN KENOBI

In the last days of the Clone Wars, Count Dooku dueled Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi for the final time. While Kenobi was telekinetically removed mid-duel and it was left to Skywalker to finish the job, the former instance is often misjudged as proof of a ragdoll-tier gap between Kenobi and Lord Tyranus. The Revenge of the Sith junior novel explains that in lieu of having his Force defenses simply overpowered, Kenobi failed to erect them in the first place (link). One obviously cannot claim X is freely capable of penetrating the active barrier of Y and tossing them around (aka ragdolling) if Y only ever had a passive barrier up.

In contrast, the Revenge of the Sith novelization has Kenobi moving “straight upward over Dooku’s head so fast it seemed he’d vanished”; his “blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike”; and parrying “every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper” (link). If X could incapacitate Y with a snap of their fingers, they wouldn’t be so utterly flabbergasted, almost overwhelmed, and have all their attacks neutralized by Y’s swordplay; lightsaber prowess and Force ability are inextricably linked together. The evidence is more in favor of Kenobi being on the Count’s level than five tiers beneath.

II. OBI-WAN KENOBI VS A’SHARAD HETT

Two years after the Clone Wars, Ben Kenobi discovers another Order 66 survivor, the disgruntled Jedi A’Sharad Hett. Hett had disavowed the Jedi way and taken up the mantle of a Tusken warlord pillaging across Tatooine, and so him and Kenobi naturally come to blows (link). While the comic could potentially be interpreted disfavorably towards Hett in a vacuum, the novelization clarifies several key points.

A) OBI-WAN’S POWER LEVEL

The text notes that while Kenobi hadn’t fought with a lightsaber in a while, “he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine,” nonetheless, and “had not allowed his reflexes to become dull.” Simply put, he hadn’t declined, and was on the same level as he had been in Revenge of the Sith.

B) OBI-WAN’S EFFORT

Ben required absolute focus while fighting Hett, and any distracting thoughts “would probably only get him killed.” Hett also scored several unarmed strikes in Kenobi, and the ones Ben did block, “he wasn't doing so with ease.” As to the sometimes-tossed-around notion that Ben won as he soon as reminded himself he was fighting for Luke, warriors’ motivations circulate around their brain constantly. Just because he happened to think of Luke at that particular instant doesn't mean he wasn't serious prior. The text even notes it was “fortunate” Ben wasn’t out of practice, indicating that someone noticeably beneath RotS Kenobi’s level would have lost to Hett; had he been toying with Hett and capable of stomping him, him retaining his former prowess would have been completely irrelevant rather than “fortunate.” Kenobi was giving this duel his all, and that’s that.

C) A’SHARAD’S ARM

Some readers of the comic have interpreted the blue flash around Kenobi’s arm showing him telekinetically ripping off Hett’s limb, and thus have argued he was massively more powerful in the Force. But the novelization clarifies Ben merely pushed Hett backwards with telekinesis, and took his arm with a swipe of his blade. There is no great disparity in Force strength shown here.

D) THE TERRAIN

While the text notes Hett was more experienced fighting on sand, this is hardly a factor. Firstly, let us make clear that it only gave Hett an advantage, and did not give Kenobi any disadvantage, as inferior fighters like Qui-Gon Jinn and Darth Maul weren't bothered by the desert environment at all (link). Secondly, we are talking about Force users here: something as trivial as sand beneath their boots isn't going to boost their precognition, augmentation, reflexes or clarity of mind - far more pertinent factors in a lightsaber duel than simple technique or raw skill. The fact that Hett had more experience fighting on a desert doesn't take away from the fact that Kenobi didn't ragdoll, speedblitz or do anything to Hett that would indicate he could stomp. It would be a hard-fought battle in any environment.

In the end, I don’t see any reason not to mark Hett a rival of Kenobi’s here. The latter was noted to have retained his skills from his days in the Clone Wars, of which he required every ounce to stay alive and triumph over Hett, with the terrain being only a negligent advantage for the latter.

III. A’SHARAD HETT VS DARTH KRAYT

A) SITH APPRENTICE

After his loss at Kenobi’s hands, Hett’s Tusken tribe abandons him. Now stripped of both the duties of the Jedi and his familial heritage, Hett becomes a bounty hunter. Shortly after, he takes a mission to Korriban, where he finds the holocron of XoXaan, from whom he learns the dark side. His mind now set on taking revenge on Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine, Hett gives himself to Sith teachings until sometime after the Battle of Endor. During this time, “he gained a great deal of strength in the Force,” which is putting it lightly; after all, we are talking about a dude who gave himself over to his hatred of those who destroyed his life, immersing himself in the dark side, with the lore of Korriban to draw upon, for at least two decades (link) - he could already match peak Obi-Wan Kenobi in just three.

B) VONG EXPERIMENT

After his training is complete, Hett emerges ready to take down those who took everything from him, but finds the galaxy already free of Sith rule. Lost and aimless, Hett wanders into the Unknown Regions where he encounters the Yuuzhan Vong, who take him prisoner. Experiencing the Embrace of Pain, Hett opens himself to the dark side utterly, annihilating his captors and traveling to Korriban again, where he formally names himself Darth Krayt. Prior to his ordeal, Hett “had only been pretending to be a Sith” compared to what he became after: “XoXaan opened the Dragon’s eyes, but he could still not see the power within the darkness until he met the Yuuzhan Vong.” In short, it was at the hands of the Vong that “A'Sharad Hett died” and “Darth Krayt was born.” (link)

C) SITH EMPEROR

While the coral seeds implanted by the Yuuzhan Vong drained his Force power over time, Darth Krayt as of Legacy should still be superior to himself just after escaping the captivity of the Vong as he had “perfected his combat techniques over many decades,” indicating an improvement over his post-Vong self. He had also “honed his skills in the Clone Wars and killed thousands of opponents since then,” clearly referring to a time after his transformation into Krayt as he did not slay anyone during his tutelage under XoXaan and only killed a single ship worth of Vong soldiers following his torture (link). He additionally accumulated an insane reservoir of dark side knowledge: his servant Darth Wyyrlok III was “one of the greatest scholars of the Jedi, Sith, and other Force-using traditions in the galaxy,” having “access to books, scrolls, holocrons, and computer records from across the eons, which he has collected in the hopes of gaining a deeper understanding of the Force”; in total, “his knowledge of Sith lore, rituals, and history was rivaled only by that of Krayt himself,” in addition to Krayt's holocron containing “many secrets and bits of lore known only to Darth Krayt himself.” Note that Force knowledge doesn't just increase the amount of abilities one can wield; it adds to one's overall power as seen in the cases of the Banite Sith, Yoda, and A'Sharad Hett himself (link).

All in all, it's reasonable to assert Krayt is weaker during Legacy than he was during Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse, but nothing indicates the coral seeds would offset literally 110 years of power growth, especially when he often replenished himself in a healing trance when his strength ebbed. It would be even more asinine to think Emperor Krayt would be weaker than his Sith apprentice self, much less his Jedi self, as he himself says he has grown in power since then (link).

CONCLUSION: DARTH KRAYT VS COUNT DOOKU

It’s near-impossible not to recognize Obi-Wan Kenobi’s relativity to Count Dooku at the start of Revenge of the Sith. Kenobi keeps up his skill level for the two years leading up to his confrontation with A’Sharad Hett. He defeats the Tusken warlord, but not after significant struggle. Judging by Hett’s performance, it’s likely he’s already near Dooku’s tier before even embracing the dark side.

Hett then makes major gains in Force strength after committing himself to Sith ways for two decades. He further gets an immense boost after enduring the Embrace of Pain at the hands of the Yuuzhan Vong. After this, he took on the appellation of Darth Krayt, building his power and Sith order further in secret until finally dethroning Roan Fel and declaring himself Emperor of the galaxy.

Basically: Emperor Krayt (>)> Darth Krayt >> A Sharad Hett (Sith) >> A’Sharad Hett (Jedi) < Obi-Wan Kenobi = Count Dooku. I don’t see much reason for why the Count won’t get slaughtered like swine on butchering day. All that’s left is debunking your scaling chain, which will be carried out in the next post.

The ball's in your court, @arkhamasylum3

Favorite post yet. Good job Azronger.

I like how Az has just affirmed my Muur scaling, not that he likely cares.

Nice post @Azronger. Expect my rebuttal around the deadline. I intend to put effort into it this time.

Dooku just got slaughtered like swine on a butchering day. Great post.

Well done Azronger

@ArkhamAsylum3 @DC77 @dark-sith123 Warning for clogging the thread with useless crap. The posts have been deleted by myself and another moderator.

Made good progress with my post so far. You might see something done within the next few days.

Really good post from @Azronger.

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote:Made good progress with my post so far. You might see something done within the next few days.

How's the rebuttal coming along?

@Azronger Ended up procrastinating so I haven't made as much progress as I would have liked though I'm still making progress. Hoping to get it done by Friday though I'm not making promises.

@ArkhamAsylum3

Your post needs to be out by next Thursday. Just a reminder.

@Azronger

I'm aware. Given it's the weekend and I have Monday off school I should be able to finish it before Thursday.