SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger)

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This thread is apart of a larger tournament between ten Suspect Insight members. You can read the other debates here:

• Preliminary round - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Vader (Ethanion) [Finished]
  
• Preliminary round - Darth Krayt (Azronger) vs Darth Tyranus (ArkhamAsylum3) [Finished]
  
• Round one - Arcann (XSupremeSkillzX) vs Darth Maul (ILS) [Finished]
  
• Round one - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist) [Finished]
  
• Round one - Darth Krayt (Azronger) vs Revan (DarthBane77) [Finished]
  
• Round one - Darth Tenebrous (The Ellimist) vs Exar Kun (Decaf Wizard) [Finished]
  
• Round two - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tenebrous (The Ellimist) [Finished]
  
• Round two - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger)
  

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Arcann as of Knights of the Eternal Throne. Darth Krayt as of Legacy # 1.

Each introduction can take a maximum of one week to create. Each subsequent post can take a maximum of two weeks to respond. Tthere will be three posts per side. The first post, not including response or sourcing quotes, will have a maximum of 10,000 original characters, the second 17,500, and the third 25,000. Each debater will have a 2,500 finisher. The verdict will be decided by a panel of moderators.

This thread follows all default stipulations listed in the "Guidelines" thread. Additional rules are as follows:

• Feats take precedent over directly and indisputably contradicted statements.
  
• Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case must be made within the debate itself.
  
• All letter or number statistics ascribed to characters from C-Canon sources, including role-playing games and trading cards, are banned.
  

Nice, TAEP

Very excited for this debate, good luck to both participants.

TAEP, please.

TAEP

Before I get into Krayt, I would like to recap the points I made during my debate with ILS and expand upon them. Namely:

• Emperor Vitiate (SWTOR: Revan): This argument proposes that the Sith Emperor as of the Revan Novel is significantly more powerful than Revan Reborn. Revan muses that he ”knew he couldn’t go toe-to-toe with the Emperor by himself for very long”, and that he “probably” was not a match for the Emperor alone. Furthermore, the Essential Reader’s Companion ultimately states ”The Emperor’s power is too much for Revan. Recognizing that the Emperor is undefeatable, Scourge kills Meetra and betrays Revan”, and Scourge notes after the fact that ”The Emperor would have won regardless”. Thus, Vitiate as of the Novel receives all of the scaling Revan Reborn benefits from, including vast superiority to Star Forge Malak, who in turn is vastly superior to Exar Kun and Freedon Nadd, and by proxy the rest of the Ancient Sith. 
  
  
• Emperor Vitiate (Act 3, Weakened): This argument proposes that the Emperor, even while temporarily weakened at the end of Act 3, is vastly more powerful than his Novel Incarnation. This stems from the fact that Revan Reborn believed he was not a match for the Emperor alone, yet ”With the combined strength of Meetra, Scourge, and even T3, however, he believed they stood a real chance of victory”, Indicating that Scourge would have been a relevant factor in the fight. Conversely, an absurdly more powerful Act 3 Scourge who is far more intimate with the Emperor forces the Hero of Tython to face Vitiate alone, because ”No one else can resist his direct influence.” This indicates that Scourge would have been nothing more than a hindrance to the Hero’s efforts, which is clearly not the case in the Novel. Essentially, the gap between Act 3 weakened Vitiate and SWTOR Scourge is larger than the gap between Novel Vitiate and Novel Scourge, despite Scourge’s massive growth during that span of time. Thus, Act 3 weakened Vitiate receives any feats and scaling Novel Vitiate benefits from. 
  
  
• Emperor Vitiate (Act 3, Recovered): This argument proposes that Vitiate restored his power to normal levels over the course of the Hero’s massacre through Kaas City and the Dark Temple. Lord Scourge states that ”[The Emperor] will recover quickly. We cannot grant him time to gather his power.” The dictionary definitions of “recover” in this context include return to a normal state of health, mind, or strength and to bring back to normal position or condition. Despite Scourge’s warning, the Hero gives Vitiate time to recover while dissipating his energies further to save his apprentice in distress. Scourge after the fact laments, ”You gave the Emperor time to gather his strength. We are all fortunate to be alive.” As a kicker, the Hero can outright dismiss Scourge’s warning: ”Let him prepare all he wants. Ready or not, I’ll destroy him,”  Which at least indicates the Hero is confident he can defeat a full power Emperor’s voice despite his failure at the end of Act 2. Thus, the Emperor as of his confrontation with the Hero is not significantly weaker than (and likely on par with) the Emperor’s Voice in Act 2.
  
  
• Hero of Tython (Act 3): This argument proposes that after fighting through hordes of Sith and the Imperial Guard in the Dark Temple (the heart of the Emperor’s power that contains immense dark side energies and countless Sith Spirits) and further dissipating his energies to save Kira, the Hero still manages to overcome a recovered Vitiate: ”The Emperor lies beaten at your feet. For all his power, he was no match for you. Now you must decide his ultimate fate.” Thus, a fresh Act 3 Hero should be significantly more powerful than the Emperor’s Voice circa SWTOR, if not vastly more powerful. 
  
  
• Valklander (KOTFE Chapter 5): This argument proposes that the Outlander (who at this point is at least just as, if not much more powerful than Act 3 HoT) while briefly channeling the power of Valkorion is enormously more powerful than base Outlander. After being ambushed by a horde of Zakuul Knights and Skytroopers, Valkorion tells Outlander that ”You are outmatched. Death is all but certain for your Sith friend. I could save her. I only require the briefest moment of control.” Upon accepting Valkorion’s power, the Outlander decimates the entire horde of Knights and Skytroopers in little more than a second, despite him/Senya/Lana being outmatched just seconds before. Thus, Valklander with the briefest moment of control is absurdly more powerful than base Outlander, and thus any prior incarnation of the Hero. 
  
  

• Valklander (KOTFE Chapter 8): This argument proposes that Valklander’s demonstration of power against Arcann is infinitely beyond what he displayed during Chapter 5. Whereas in Chapter 5, Valkorion was only in control for a couple of seconds at most and the Outlander experienced no adverse effects, in Chapter 8 Valklander conjures an enormous lightning storm for an entire minute that is visually vastly more devastating and causes the Outlander to go into a coma for 2 days, as his body was absolutely ravaged trying to handle this level of power. Thus, the power Valklander unleashes in Chapter 8 is more powerful than his brief attack in Chapter 5 by orders of magnitude.
  
  

• Emperor Arcann (KOTFE Chapter 8): This argument proposes that Arcann is capable of handling and possibly even exceeding the power unleashed by Valklander. As shown in the above video, Arcann is able to deflect Valklander’s lightning for an entire minute and tank the impact of the lightning + the subsequent fall and seemingly be no worse for wear afterwards. I would even go as far as to say that if Arcann was not BFR’d from the fight, it’s possible that he would have defeated Valklander, as the Outlander’s body had been taken far beyond its limit at that point and it is unclear how much longer he would have been able to unleash such power. Thus, Emperor Arcann is at least relative to the Valklander we see in Chapter 8, and therefore benefits from all the aforementioned scaling.
  
  

The point of this scaling is to illustrate the sheer extent of power Arcann possesses, and the mountain that Krayt has to scale in order to even be within 2 tiers of the Prince. The primary argument you employed against DB77 posited that Vong Krayt possesses some degree of superiority to RotS Sidious due to his immense scaling over A'Sharad Hett, who was able to give Kenobi 2 years post-ROTS a good fight, who in turn is relative to Mustafar Vader and thus all of the tier 9’s (with Kenobi essentially being the highest possible 8). While this may have worked against KOTOR Revan, Arcann is a different animal entirely. As far as I can tell, you can at best claim reliably that base KOTFE Outlander is the most powerful character in the chain bound under Yoda’s supremacy quotes, but as demonstrated above, such power is microbial compared to the might Arcann possesses. For this line of scaling to be relevant, you would have to prove that the tier 9’s of the PT are not just more powerful than base KOTFE Outlander, but massively, absurdly more powerful than him by many orders of magnitude in the same way Valklander and Arcann are. I find such an endeavor to be doubtful, given the feats and scaling the Outlander benefits from as mentioned above. Not that I find Vong Krayt’s line of scaling over the tier 9’s of the PT to be particularly compelling anyways (potentially more on that later, depending on your argument). 

There is also the matter of Vong Krayt’s stamina (or lack thereof) to be considered. You conceded to DB77 that Vong Krayt’s stamina is rather poor due to the constant strain the coral seeds put on his body. Even if Vong Krayt’s raw power had not diminished, his ability to effectively channel that power for extended periods of time in combat certainly had. This is clearly shown through Krayt’s performance against the Imperial Knights, as whatever degree of power he exerted to annihilate them was considered by Wyyrlok an overextension of his power, with Krayt also claiming that ”My body fails me, Wyyrlok.” Krayt goes as far as to say he is only a decade or two away from having his body surrendering to oblivion entirely.  



As with any darksider, but especially in the case of Krayt, the more dark side power he calls upon, the more his body will be ravaged. Essentially, the power Vong Krayt wields is not equivalent to the power he is actually capable of bringing to bear in combat on a consistent basis, at least not without quickly destroying his body in the process. Not only do you have to prove that Vong Krayt's power is actually capable of matching Arcann, but that he is capable of taking him down swiftly enough that the limitations of his body do not come into play and cost him the fight. And to that I say…

NAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Really solid post.

good post

Solid.

Good post

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:For this line of scaling to be relevant, you would have to prove that the tier 9’s of the PT are not just more powerful than base KOTFE Outlander, but massively, absurdly more powerful than him by many orders of magnitude in the same way Valklander and Arcann are.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:Not only do you have to prove that Vong Krayt's power is actually capable of matching Arcann, but that he is capable of taking him down swiftly enough that the limitations of his body do not come into play and cost him the fight. And to that I say…

NAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

You go on about how I have to prove this and that for Krayt to triumph over Arcann… but so do you. I don’t see any sort of connectivity in your post between the two characters; you just list Arcann’s scaling and then at the very end claim Krayt cannot defeat him quick enough with no substantiation whatsoever. By that same logic, I could list any arbitrary feat Krayt has, and claim it puts him above Arcann. None of the judges should have any reason to think your post is convincing, because it is built on a non sequitur, and as such, does not provide any answers to which combatant would beat the other (assuming that they’ll come into this open-minded, and discard their pre-existing knowledge and opinions of the lore like a good judge should, ensuring that subjective bias will be eliminated as much as possible and that our arguments will be evaluated purely on the merits of their substance and logical robustness).

I. ANAKIN SKYWALKER

Anakin Skywalker only a few months after Attack of the Clones shields himself and an entire village from a theta storm. When Anakin is holding the storm back on-screen, it is marked in red text, and when he is holding it back off-screen, it is marked in blue text; note that the red and blue scenes are not contemporaneous, but rather sequential. Given the time Obi-Wan spent messing around in the refinery and the lengthy conversations both of them had count towards the total duration of the feat, I think a reasonable estimate would be at least ten minutes Anakin spent deflecting the storm.

Star Wars: Clone Wars Gambit - Siege wrote:The next storm-shield generator overloaded just as Anakin reached it. He had a split second's warning, one hammer blow from the Force. The storm seemed to hold its breath…

...and then exhaled in renewed fury as the generator erupted in a burning light show of sparks. With a scream like a wounded animal the shield directly overhead collapsed and a maelstrom of theta particles poured through the gap.

He acted on instinct - and out of sheer bloody-minded terror. Throwing up his hands he used the Force to hold back the stream of theta particles, and with a shout of rage became one with the storm shield. Rejected the storm. He thought he could feel his blood bubbling. He was losing himself, disappearing within the scarlet vortex of the Force as it consumed him and transformed him into fire.

And there was his mother, whispering again. He can help you. He was meant to help you. Furious, Anakin stood alone against the storm.

* * *

... On Coruscant, in the Temple, Taria Damsin and Ahsoka shadowdance with their lightsabers. Shadowdance within the Force. Open and trusting they swim its light tides - and as one are swept up in a tidal wave of fear. Shock twists them and they stumble, fingers loosening. Lightsabers fall. Shocked younglings whisper and wonder what to do…

... as Yoda, in meditation, is shocked out of his communing by a sense of danger sharp as pain. Hand pressed to his head he seeks for understanding, seeks to see what has happened. But the dark side is a jealous shroud. It keeps its secrets close. Yoda grits his teeth and fights it…

... as the Drivok psychic seeker lifts its head and scents the air and keens with triumph because above all things it is a hunter and no hunter likes to be eluded. But now it can see the missing Jedi so clearly, lighting up its mind, and on the map it can pinpoint them exactly…

... and Lok Durd laughs and laughs and laughs...

* * *

Every alarm in the monitoring station was sounding. Devi pushed her antigrav harness to its limits as she flung herself from station to station.

"No, no, don't do that!" she shouted, slamming switches, hitting buttons. "Don't you dare!"

"Devi!" Obi-Wan yelled. "Tell me what I can do to..."

She flung out an arm, pointing toward the generator and storm-shield status board. "Glue your eyes to those gauges. We've got one shield generator down. If another goes it's over. We're all dead. I don't even know how the rest of the shield's still holding but I don't care. It's holding and that's all that matters!"

I know how. It's Anakin. May the Force protect him.

Sick with fear for him, Obi-Wan crossed to the status board and read off the gauges, even as his stomach churned and the bile rose in his throat.

Hold on, Anakin. I'll be there as soon as I can.

Because surely not even the Chosen One could hold back a theta storm on his own.

"It was the most awful thing I've ever seen," Qui-Gon had told him, so many years ago. "Theta storms kill in two ways, you see. If you're contaminated from a distance, well, it takes a long time to die. But if you are in the storm's path it will rip you to pieces and then melt your bones. I've seen it kill both ways, and both ways arc cruel. Better to be swallowed alive by a sarlacc."

"Well?" Devi demanded. "Are they holding? The other generators? The shield? Yavid?"

Obi-Wan wrenched his mind from the past and checked the status board again. "Yes. So far, so good."

Devi was sweating, fat drops rolling down her fierce and unremarkable face. But instead of capitulating to the fear, she fought it.

"This is crazy, Yavid. Crazy," she said, and banged her fist on another gauge. "If these readings are right this is a Class Four storm. I never thought I'd live to see one this bad."

"So I should feel honored? Look on it as a- a kind of welcome-home celebration?"

She snorted. "Ha! Some welcome." And then even that tiny moment of humor was obliterated as yet another alarm began to sound. "Oh, have mercy," she whispered. "No. Please, no."

"What is it? What's happening?"

She staggered to another bank of monitors then turned, her face grayish white. "We've got a power surge building," she said, her voice catching in her throat. "And I can't stop it. Not without shutting down the entire second sector and that means collapsing the storm shield. Yavid..."

Her terror was almost overwhelming. "Devi, are you sure we can't stop it? Short-circuit it somehow? Where will the surge hit? Devi!"

Startled, she shook her head hard to regain focus and turned back to her monitors. One trembling finger traced the stuttering liquid-crystal display readout of Torbel's underground power grid.

"It'll blow the irrigation system for sure," she said, almost in tears. "It might take out the artesian pump. Probably not the storm shield. And then- stang, the mine. Will it hit the mine? No. No, no, not the mine, the refinery." Spinning around, she nearly fell over. "Unless there's a miracle it'll ground in the refinery. Yavid..."

"Devi, try to stop that surge," he ordered, already heading for the station's outer door. "There has to be a way to divert it or decompress it. Something. Anything. Please, you must try. Raise Arrad in the refinery and Rikkard at the mine. Tell them to evacuate everyone to a safe distance."

The moment he set foot outside the power plant he turned toward Anakin - and felt his heart thud as he saw the gaping hole in the storm shield. Felt the furious concentration of power, of the Force, in that one small place as Anakin held back the storm's might.

And then he felt the gathered villagers, their numbers growing, their fear and astonishment mounting, as they watched the stranger from Voteb do a thing that should not be humanly possible.

Hold on, Anakin. Hold on.

He turned and Force-sprinted for the endangered refinery.

CHAPTER NINE

The refinery was like a war zone.

Oblivious to their imminent danger, the villagers of Torbel worked furiously to satisfy the needs of a government that used them as slaves. Every station was in operation - sorting barrels, compression chambers, screening units, conveyor belts, tumblers, graders, laser-emulsifiers, sonic scrubbers and packing bays, with trolleys waiting at the end to be loaded with damotite, then hauled out to the warehouse for collection.

Death for a thousand, thousand worlds.

Everything was stink and noise. Thumping, thudding, banging, ringing, screeching, grinding: Obi-Wan felt the cacophony like percussion on his skin. His bones were tuning forks driving spikes of sound through his brain and his nose and mouth sucked dry with the heat and acrid fumes. Raw damotite was poisonous and he wore no protection. How long before he'd be affected? He had no idea and it didn't matter anyway. There wasn't time to pull on a suit.

Long rows of strip lighting sputtered and surged, echoing the instability of the village's threatened power supply. Not a single safety-suited villager seemed to have noticed. They were consumed by desperation, by the obliterating need to meet their impossible quota. If Devi had managed to get a call through here, no one had listened.

He took hold of the nearest villager and spun her around. As she gaped at him through her eye shield, he gave her a hard shake. "You're in terrible danger, Teeba. Get out, now. Run."

The villagers close enough to hear him stopped working. Letting go of the woman, he turned on them next.

"All of you, get out of here! There's a power surge building!"

They didn't know him. They didn't trust him. Foolishly, understandably, they hesitated. Recklessly desperate, he used the Force to push them.

"Get out!"

The villagers dropped their tools and ran for the door, clumsy and slow in their heavy protective clothing.
He could feel the air swirling, reacting to the unstable power grid. The lights overhead were flickering faster now. And then the conveyor belts shuddered and groaned. Added to the refinery's rough symphony, a counterpoint of startled voices.

"Get out, get out!" he shouted, running along the aisles, between the workstations. "Spread the word! Get out! This sector of the power grid is about to blow!"

He couldn't see Arrad. Perhaps Rikkard's son didn't know there was trouble. Because if Devi had called here and he'd ignored her-

The trickle of fleeing villagers was building to a flood as his frantic warning leapt from station to station. Static discharges began a brilliant, lethal dance over the refinery's battered old equipment, arcing and spitting and sizzling with sparks.

An angry shout cut through the noise trapped beneath the refinery's roof. Obi-Wan spun around. It was Arrad, slamming back into the main work area.

"What are you doing?" The young man snatched at the nearest villagers squeezing past him, heading for safety. "You can't go, we're not finished!"

"He says there's a power surge!" one of the villagers shouted, pulling free. "The grid's going to blow. Get out yourself, Arrad!"

"What?" Arrad was shaking his head. "What are you- Rontl, get back here! Harba! You can't go! My father's relying on us to..."

But Rontl and Harba weren't listening. "Arrad!" Obi-Wan leapt for him. "You must get everyone out of here, there's a..."

Arrad shoved him away. "There's still time. We've nearly made quota. We have to protect this last batch of damotite, Yavid! You don't understand what..."

"No, you fool, you don't understand!" he retorted. "Look around you! Look at the static discharge! Devi says the power surge is going to ground itself right here!"

The last villagers were making their escape. Arrad stared after them in furious despair, then waved a dismissive hand and turned his back. Heedless of the danger, he rushed to the nearest juddering conveyor belt and slammed a lever down, halting its progress before the chunks of raw damotite it carried could tumble to the pitted ferrocrete floor.

Somewhere in the refinery a warning klaxon began to shriek.

"Arrad!" Obi-Wan followed the younger man as he slid between workstations to the nearest sonic scrubber. "Do you hear that? Your subgenerator's starting to overload! You have to come with me, now."

"If you want to run, then run," Arrad spat, keying rapid-fire instructions into the scrubber's command center. He'd discarded his protective head gear, revealing straw-colored hair curled with sweat. "But my father's trusting me to keep this shipment..."

Is the young fool mad! "Your father doesn't want you to die for it! For pity's sake, Arrad..."

Snarling, Arrad snatched a wrench from his sagging tool belt and raised it. "I only need a few more minutes, Yavid! If you aren't going to help me then get out of my way!"

Battered by noise and by the Force's insistent push that he get out get out get out, Obi-Wan lunged for Rikkard's son. Taking hold of the young man's wrist, he poured every last bit of compulsion he possessed into his eyes, his voice.

"Arrad, come with me!"

Arrad snapped his wrist free. "I can't!" he shouted, almost drowned out by the blaring klaxon and the snapping, sparking sizzle of static discharge. "If we shortchange the shipment's weight they'll cut our food or worse, give the contract to another village. We won't survive that! We're barely surviving now! If you want to make Torbel your home, Yavid, then help me!"

Obi-Wan stared at him. If I force him out of here at the tip of my lightsaber, that will be that. He'll turn us in out of sheer spite. I can't convince him and I can't leave him here.

He had only one other choice.

"All right, all right," he said. "I'll help."

"Shut down that bank of laser-emulsifiers!" Arrad ordered. "Hurry! And then we'll..."

"I'm sorry," he said, closing his fingers around the back of the younger man's broad neck. "But we're out of time."

This was no simple mind push - he blanked Arrad's resistance with a blast of the Force. The young man's anger wilted and his muscles softened. Above their heads the strip lighting flared sun-bright once and died, plunging the refinery into a darkness leavened only by the eerie blue flashes of static discharge.
Trusting their lives to the Force, Obi-Wan slid his hand down to Arrad's shoulder, gripped the foolish young man's shirt, pulled... then ran.

But they'd left too late.

With a deafening roar the power grid overloaded and they were tossed with casual violence through the stinking, burning air.

* * *

Anakin felt the explosion heartbeats before it happened. Sweating and trembling with the effort of holding back the theta storm, ignoring the villagers who'd come to see what was going on, he tried to send Obi-Wan a warning - but his mind was so bludgeoned by the quicksilver torment of keeping the raging storm at bay that he couldn't feel his former Master's presence.

And then the refinery went up like Coruscant fireworks on Republic Day.

Screams and shouts sounded as panic surged through the Force, bright and white and stunning. Vision smearing and blearing, Anakin sought in the crowd for Teeba Jaklin. She'd come from the charter house to see what the fuss was about and remained because she couldn't believe her own eyes.

"Jaklin! Teeba Jaklin!"

She pushed and shoved and swore her way to him through the jostling villagers who pointed and gasped and were beginning to break for the refinery.

"Yes, Markl?" She scowled. "If that's even your name."

"It's my name at the moment, " he said, his teeth gritted against the relentless pain of the storm. "Teeba Jaklin, please. Find Yavid for me. Make sure he's all right."

The explosion's echoes rolled around the village, trapped beneath the barely holding shield. The red storm-glow beyond it was matched by the red glow of leaping flames. The refinery was burning. He and Jaklin stared at each other as the rest of Torbel's people ran to help, shadows in the glare of the storm. Some headed for the artesian well, for water. Others made straight for the burning building full of raw damotite.

A chilling thought struck him. Was the mineral itself flammable? That smoke - was it a toxic cloud poised to poison every last man, woman, and child beneath the storm shield?

"Teeba Jaklin! Is there danger from the..."

Her eyes were full of fear. "Yes. Not drop-dead-on-the-spot trouble but even with our secret protection we'll all of us be sickly in the next few days." She looked up at the thrashing theta storm over their heads. "Unless that clears quick soon and we can down the shields so the smoke gets to blow clean away."

"Which..." He had to pause, to rebalance himself. The effort of fighting the storm was threatening to drive him to his knees. He'd started to breathe in harsh gasping pants. "Which is- worse? The theta particles- or the damotite- smoke?"

The question made her laugh grimly. "The storm - unless it doesn't clear and we're left breathing smoke for hours on end. Then we'll be likely done for whichever way you slice the bread."

Of course they would be. The universe had a stinking sense of humor.

"You need- to find Yavid," he gasped. "If he's- not hurt he- can help you."

The look on her face said she thought they were all beyond help. "I'll look for him. How much longer before you fail, Teeb?"

He didn't know. He didn't want to think about that. "I'm- all right. Go. Please." Another deep, shuddering breath. "Find Yavid."

They were alone now, save for the men working on the shield generator. Jaklin turned away from him. "Guyne! How soon before that generator's fixed?"

The oldest of the four feverishly tinkering men spared her a glance. "Going as fast as we can, Jaklin. Half the circuits are burned out. "

Anakin tightened his hold on the Force, feeling the seethe and surge of the storm like living fire. "I can- hold on, Teeba. Don't- worry- about me. Just go. Go!"

Half step by half step, Jaklin retreated. In the garish light her eyes were narrowed. A muscle worked along her jaw. "I know what you are, young Teeb. You're..."

"Not- now, " he said, almost groaning. "Please. Find Yavid. Tell him- I'll get there- soon as- I can. "

Instead of answering, she turned to look at Guyne one last time. "Could be our lives are with you now, old Teeb," she said, her voice cracking. "Don't you be letting us down."

His teeth showed briefly in his thin, seamed face. "Not planning to, old Teeba. Get on now. Rikkard'll have need of you."

Anakin took another rib-cracking breath. "Teeba..."

"I know," she snapped, retreating. "Yavid. I said I'd look, and I will. I'm an honest one - even if you aren't."

She broke into a flat-footed run. He watched her for a few short, uneven strides, feeling Guyne's measured stare.

Don't look at me, old man. Fix that generator, would you?

Anakin hurt so much now it would be easy just to... give in. Give up. Let go. But he couldn't do that. Hundreds of lives were depending on him. He had to stand here and take it until the generator was fixed - or his heart gave out. So he closed his eyes. Whether it made sense or not he always found it easier to focus his will when cocooned in darkness.

With sight denied him all his other senses leapt to keener life. The stink of the shield generator's scorched circuitry. The stink of burning damotite from the exploded refinery. The stink of his own sweat. He heard - felt - three more explosions. Smaller this time, in swift succession. There were shouts, sirens. Sounds and echoes drumming. The worst of the Force's insistent warning had faded, leaving him scoured hollow and stunned. Now all he felt in the Force was confusion, fear and pain. Everything he usually felt, no matter where he was. It was terrible and yet, in the strangest way, also comforting. He knew how to deal with that.

It was the unknown that made him nervous.

How long had he been standing here, holding back the storm? Probably less than an hour. It felt like days. Years. He didn't have much time before the choice of whether to let go or endure would be out of his hands. Even the Chosen One had limits.

He remembered himself as a small boy, boasting to Qui-Gon at his mother's rough table.

Has anyone ever seen a Podrace? I'm the only human who can do it.

And now he was probably the only Jedi who could turn himself into a living storm shield.

It isn't boasting. It's the truth. I've got a knack for beating the odds.

Now all he had to do was beat these odds for just a little bit longer…

Sweat pouring, heart pounding, dimly aware that he was burning himself out, Anakin clung to the Force like a child to its mother's hand. Time passed. He passed with it, in silence.

"All right," said Giuyne at last. "I think that's got it. Teeb Markl..."

Stirring, he opened his eyes. "Teeb?"

"We're going to try the generator. Get ready."

He managed to nod.

The other three men stepped back from the generator as Guyne, sore and sorry and tired, took a deep breath and reconnected the power supply. He flipped a series of switches, waited- waited- then activated the shield.

With a sizzling hum the storm shield came back online. Guyne and his three friends cheered, tiredly ecstatic... and Anakin slumped, falling boneless and graceless to the hard, dry ground.

He could feel himself shaking. Teeth chattering, lungs aching for air, he rolled on to his side and curled into a ball. His lightsaber, undiscovered, banged against his ribs as Torbel swung and spun around him. Vaguely he was aware of agitated voices calling his name and concerned hands poking and prodding to see if he was still in one piece. He couldn't say. He couldn't answer their anxious, shouted questions. He couldn't even tell if he was still hurting or if what he felt now was just the memory of pain. Only once before had he ever felt anything close to this, and that was on Geonosis, in the cave, after Dooku's savage Force lightning had come close to killing him. After a while... eons... the worst of the shuddering passed. He opened his eyes, uncurled his spine and looked up. Yes, Torbel had a storm shield - and it wasn't him. On the other side of the plasma the theta storm continued to spit radioactive rage.

Spit away. I don't care. You're not getting in.

He rolled onto his hands and knees and then levered himself upright. Reaching hands helped him, and he was grateful for that. Red and black spots danced before his eyes. He had to blink and blink to clear his vision.

"Steady there, young Teeb," said Guyne, holding tight to his elbow. "Went down hard, you did. Just you catch your breath."

"I'm all right," he said, and was startled to hear how raw his voice sounded. Staggering, he turned to look across the darkened village toward the refinery. The flames were dying down, and the smoke. But the air was still tainted and thick. He tried not to think about the poison he was sucking into his lungs.
He looked back at Guyne. "Stay here and keep an eye on that generator, Teeb. And if it looks like blowing again send for me. I'll come back."

In the shifting light the old villager's salt-gray eyebrows lifted. "Mighty sure of yourself you are, for a young Teeb," he said, very dry. "Never knew a Lanteeban farmer with your knack of taking charge. Never knew any farmer could hold back a theta storm, neither. Not with the power of his mind."

Behind him, his friends nodded agreement, a small knot of suspicion even though they were grateful.

Anakin sighed. "Teeb Guyne, we both know I'm not a farmer. Will you stay here?"

"We'll stay," said Guyne, nodding. "And if we're needful of a Jedi we'll know where to look."

Wonderful. Obi-Wan's going to kill me.

He had no hope of Force-sprinting his way to the ruined refinery. The vicious edge of his pain had dulled, but every bone and muscle and sinew still ached. His sense of the Force was fiercely dimmed... and how long it would take for his numb shock to subside he couldn't begin to guess. He'd never exhausted himself like this before.

There's a first time for everything, I suppose. I just really wish that this wasn't it.

Gagging at the stench of burned damotite, he pushed himself into a stumbling run, left the villagers behind him and went in search of Obi-Wan.

-- -- --

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:Emperor Arcann (KOTFE Chapter 8): This argument proposes that Arcann is capable of handling and possibly even exceeding the power unleashed by Valklander. As shown in the above video, Arcann is able to deflect Valklander’s lightning for an entire minute and tank the impact of the lightning + the subsequent fall and seemingly be no worse for wear afterwards. I would even go as far as to say that if Arcann was not BFR’d from the fight, it’s possible that he would have defeated Valklander, as the Outlander’s body had been taken far beyond its limit at that point and it is unclear how much longer he would have been able to unleash such power. Thus, Emperor Arcann is at least relative to the Valklander we see in Chapter 8, and therefore benefits from all the aforementioned scaling.

This is misleading.

Arcann only deflected a small fraction of the power coursing through the Outlander. Immense amounts of energy were uncontrollably leaking out of the Outlander’s body even before the lightning started hitting Arcann, and several enormous lightning bolts can be seen whizzing right past Arcann and in completely different directions from his barrier. On the outside, bolts far larger than the ones he had to deflect can be seen taking out ships and killing - although not scorching or incinerating - people. I have no reason to believe Arcann took the majority or brunt of the energy Valkorion released, or that the small lightning hitting him was any more potent than the huge bolts outside; the attack was too unfocused and uncontrolled for him to have actually deflected very much of the total energy output.















According to Qui-Gon Jinn, “if you are in the storm's path it will rip you to pieces and then melt your bones.” Compared to the lightning Arcann tanked probably being not any stronger than that which failed to disintegrate or even fry the pilots, the theta storm is orders of magnitude more potent. Arcann’s barrier being broken in 50 seconds is simply a vastly inferior feat to Anakin holding back the theta storm for multiple minutes without giving out, no ifs or buts about it.

II. DARTH VADER

Lightsaber dueling feats are just as valid a proxy for power as any other feat. Darth Tyranus’s feat of Force augmentation took more Force energy than his feat of telekinesis, and Darth Zannah notes how most lightsaber duels do not actually last more than one minute due to the sheer amount of Force energy that goes into augmenting one’s physical abilities to high levels.

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith novelization wrote:The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-

Skywalker was getting stronger.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

Star Wars: Darth Bane - Dynasty of Evil wrote:Lightsaber battles were brutal in their intensity; few duels lasted more than a minute. Even for a trained Jedi, the effort of all-out combat was exhausting - particularly when using the acrobatic maneuvers of Ataru. It didn't take long for Zannah to sense that her opponent was wearing down. She, on the other hand, was barely winded. At Bane's urging, she had become an expert in the defensive sequences of the Soresu form. It was simple for her to parry, redirect, or evade her opponent's blows by using Set's own momentum against him, easily keeping the Dark Jedi at bay.

-- -- --

Anakin Skywalker ”had never felt so powerful” and felt that ”The Force was with him today in ways more potent than he had ever experienced” during the start of Revenge of the Sith, which would include the time he performed the aforementioned theta storm feat. After falling to the dark side, he jumps from tier eight to tier nine, granting him ”newfound power” and bringing about a ”huge” disparity between his light side self, that was already more powerful than his theta-storm-shielding self from the early days of the Clone Wars, and his dark side self. On Mustafar, the newly-christened Darth Vader duels Obi-Wan Kenobi, and ”They each tap into the Force as they never have before” as they clash lightsabers.

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith novelization wrote:He had dreamed of capturing Grievous ever since Muunilinst - and now the general was close. So close Anakin could practically smell him . . . and Anakin had never felt so powerful. The Force was with him today in ways more potent than he had ever experienced.

While it’s inarguable that Anakin had to push himself far beyond the limits of his standard power that was available to him at the time in holding back the theta storm, his duel with Obi-Wan tapped into even deeper reserves than that. The obvious explanation for this is that as Anakin grew in power over two years of fighting in the Clone Wars and from embracing the dark side, he was able to manifest a larger chunk of his potential more easily. His Force augmentation was therefore heightened beyond what it took for him to hold back the storm - remember that dueling feats are just as valid for measuring power levels as any other type of feat.

III. OBI-WAN KENOBI

Obi-Wan Kenobi engages in a marathon lightsaber duel with Darth Vader across the Mustafar mineral refinery. Near the beginning he has an epiphany of sorts where he lets go of his earthly tethers and starts contending with the Sith Lord for real, partly because of his chosen lightsaber form and his intimate familiarity with Vader’s style, but also because he was genuinely strong enough - it cannot be denied that he was able to match Vader’s Force augmentation blow for blow and was comfortably outside the Sith Lord’s domination range, even if Vader was somewhat more powerful overall.



-- -- --

While in the movie the scene at 1:27 may have appeared liked a telekinetic stalemate, the G-canon script clarifies that Kenobi was the only one actively trying to Force push Anakin, and that Anakin wasn’t in fact using telekinesis at all but was defending with a Force shield. In this sense, the scene is similar to Yoda and Sidious’s lightning-tutaminis lock - Sidious’s power kept accumulating until neither of them could hold it - except with telekinesis. It is well-known at this point that telekinetic barriers are disproportionately potent, so much so that not even Sidious could outright penetrate Maul’s and ragdoll him at his leisure, needing to engineer an opening in his concentration and pounce on the opportunity to affect him telekinetically. Obi-Wan with just five seconds (movie time) of telekinetic exertion accumulating more power than Darth Sidious could in the heat of a lightsaber duel confirms he is nearing the tier of the mightiest - a place where Arcann has no business belonging. Note that this comparison stands independent of whether Vader was hindered on Mustafar or not.

Star Wars: The Clone Wars - Darth Maul, Shadow Conspiracy wrote:But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious. The Sith Lord was astonishingly fast and efficient, and the Force flowed through him effortlessly. His sabers stabbed and slashed through the smallest hole in an opponent’s guard, his movements never carried him a millimeter out of position, and he could sense every attack Maul and Savage made before it developed.

Maul tried to slash past Sidious’s guard, only to find his Master had given ground, causing Maul to extend his arms too far and leave himself slightly unbalanced. It was the smallest stumble, easily corrected, but Sidious saw it—and pounced before Maul could draw himself back. Snarling, he reached out with the Force and slammed Maul against the wall, leaving him lying stunned in a heap.

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith script wrote:OBI-WAN and ANAKIN lock sabers. OBI-WAN puts out his hand to use the Force to push ANAKIN away. ANAKIN puts out his hand to block OBI-WAN.

Both combatants are blasted backwards onto the control panels.

IV. A’SHARAD HETT

Two years after the Clone Wars, Ben Kenobi discovers another Order 66 survivor, the disgruntled Jedi A’Sharad Hett. Hett had disavowed the Jedi way and taken up the mantle of a Tusken warlord pillaging across Tatooine, and so he and Kenobi naturally came to blows. The text notes that while Kenobi hadn’t fought with a lightsaber in a while, “he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine,” nonetheless, and “had not allowed his reflexes to become dull.” Simply put, he hadn’t declined, and was on the same level as he had been in Revenge of the Sith. Despite this, he required absolute focus while fighting Hett, and any distracting thoughts “would probably only get him killed.” Hett also scored several unarmed strikes in Kenobi, and the ones Ben did block, “he wasn't doing so with ease.” Basically, Hett was a legitimate rival to the same Kenobi that went toe-to-toe with Darth Vader.

Star Wars: The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:Hett's hands dropped to his belt and the two lightsabers practically leapt into his gloved hands. He ignited both weapons at once, unleashing their identical green energy beams. He swung fast with the lightsaber in his right hand but Ben blocked it. The lightsabers sizzled loudly as they clashed.

It was fortunate for Ben that he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine, that he had not allowed his reflexes to become dull. He did not think about how long it had been since he had last used his lightsaber in combat. Nor did he consider that he was older than Hett by at least a decade, or Hett's considerable skills with his own weapons, and that the Tusken was far more experienced at fighting in the desert. Ben knew that any such thoughts would probably only get him killed.

As prepared as Ben was for many things, he was not ready to die. Not yet. Not today. Hett brought his other lightsaber in at a sharp angle, forcing Ben to lurch back. Ben gripped his own weapon with both hands as he swung at Hett's legs, but Hett blocked the swipe. There was another loud sizzle as the blades dragged across each other.

Ben gasped as Hett launched a powerful kick to his midriff. The kick knocked Ben off his feet, and as he fell back through the air, Hett hurled one of his lightsabers at Ben's body. Ben clung tight to his own lightsaber as he twisted his body in midair to avoid being struck by the spinning blade of Hett's weapon. The moment Hett's lightsaber whipped past Ben's head, Hett used the Force to retrieve it, drawing it back to his waiting left hand.

As Hett caught the lightsaber, Ben rolled up from the ground and swung out again. Hett blocked the strike with his right lightsaber, then threw his left arm forward to smash his other lightsaber's handle into Ben's jaw. Ben ignored the painful jolt to his head and reflexively brought his blade up high, forcing Hett to block the blow with his right lightsaber and leaving his own midsection briefly exposed. Before Hett could strike with his other lightsaber, Ben kicked him hard in the stomach.

Hett grunted, but he didn't go down. He lashed out again at Ben, kicking up sand as he moved in for the kill. Not one of the mounted Tuskens so much as flinched as they watched the duel, nor did they rally for their chief. They merely watched in silence, waiting for the outcome.

Ben blocked each blow, but he wasn't doing it with ease. Hett was far more experienced at fighting on the sand and in the desert heat. Ben knew that his opponent would never surrender, let alone withdraw. As much as he hoped to avoid killing Hett, he also knew that they couldn't keep fighting indefinitely.

But in the end, Ben knew he wasn't fighting for his own life. He was fighting for Luke's.
Quickly raising his left hand, Ben used the Force to push out at Hett, shoving him back through the air as Ben's lightsaber swept up and through Hett's right arm. Hett shouted as his arm fell away from his body. As Hett stumbled back, Ben used the Force to tear Hett's other lightsaber from his left hand's grip. Both of Hett's lightsabers deactivated as they sailed past Ben and landed in the sand behind him.

V. DARTH KRAYT

After his duel with Kenobi, A’Sharad Hett apprentices himself to the specter of XoXaan to take revenge on Emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader, gaining ”a great deal of strength in the Force.” However, once he emerges from Korriban, he is captured by the Yuuzhan Vong and tortured in the Embrace of Pain; that he later standardized the Embrace as part of One Sith training evinces its effectiveness in focusing the power of the dark side within the individual. Prior to this ordeal, Hett ”had only been pretending to be a Sith”; indeed, ”XoXaan opened the Dragon’s eyes, but he could still not see the power within the darkness until he met the Yuuzhan Vong”; in short, it was with the Vong that ”A’Sharad Hett died” and ”Darth Krayt was born.” As Krayt, he ”perfected his combat skills over many decades” in killing ”thousands of opponents,” and formed his own Sith Order while increasing his power and knowledge of the Force for the next 105 years.













-- -- --

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:There is also the matter of Vong Krayt’s stamina (or lack thereof) to be considered. You conceded to DB77 that Vong Krayt’s stamina is rather poor due to the constant strain the coral seeds put on his body. Even if Vong Krayt’s raw power had not diminished, his ability to effectively channel that power for extended periods of time in combat certainly had. This is clearly shown through Krayt’s performance against the Imperial Knights, as whatever degree of power he exerted to annihilate them was considered by Wyyrlok an overextension of his power, with Krayt also claiming that ”My body fails me, Wyyrlok.” Krayt goes as far as to say he is only a decade or two away from having his body surrendering to oblivion entirely.

As with any darksider, but especially in the case of Krayt, the more dark side power he calls upon, the more his body will be ravaged. Essentially, the power Vong Krayt wields is not equivalent to the power he is actually capable of bringing to bear in combat on a consistent basis, at least not without quickly destroying his body in the process. Not only do you have to prove that Vong Krayt's power is actually capable of matching Arcann, but that he is capable of taking him down swiftly enough that the limitations of his body do not come into play and cost him the fight. And to that I say…

NAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

This is misleading.

Krayt is able to sustain himself for far longer and in a far worse condition than that Imperial Knight example would have you believe. Seven years later, he fights Cade Skywalker for a few pages without tiring. The aftermath of the duel portrays Krayt only collapsing once he is out of sight of his servants and alone with Wyyrlok, indicating that he can keep his body going with his willpower and simple adrenaline (cf. in real life, while running, fatigue only sets in once you stop). Krayt has more than enough power to defeat Arcann, and can and will exert as much of it as is needed to get the job done.

















As I’ve said all I have to say for now, let this be my conclusion: Arcann gets crushed, Krayt is in a higher league.

Character count excluding quotes and formatting: 8,200 / 10,000

Make sure to give it a star if you like it

Welp that post was pog champ. Skillz will make a fight of this tho I have no doubt.

Azronger wrote:Make sure to give it a star if you like it

i liked the post, but poor obi wan being = to hett hurts my heart

@Azronger Impressive post.

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ You have around 12 hours left to post. I propose that I get 100 extra characters for my next post for every hour you're over the deadline. This can extend to up to two weeks past the deadline, and if you've still not posted by then, you'll be disqualified. If you do not agree to these stipulations, you'll be disqualified immediately should you miss the deadline.

Revan Reborn is able to “easily” catch Darth Nyriss’ storm of force lightning without gathering his energies and redirect it back at her, “instantly” tearing through her force shield and disintegrating her, leaving only a pile of ash:

The Emperor is described as being “infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.” When Revan Reborn is faced with a lightning storm from the Emperor, he is quickly overwhelmed despite gathering his energies. This indicates that even Novel Vitiate’s casual lightning would be on par with or far beyond Nyriss’ lightning storm:


Regarding Arcann only blocking a small fraction of the overall energy...consider the following:

"Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 – and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous.

- Dueling Jedi press article, Nick Gillard

Gillard goes as far as to say that the duel explains how Obi Wan is able to defeat Anakin despite this “enormous” difference in ability between the two, namely Obi-Wan’s intimacy with Anakin and emotional maturity, which is also backed by George Lucas:

Gillard also reports that the duel will explain how Obi-Wan is able to defeat his protege, even though Anakin has been established as the most powerful Jedi who ever lived. "Obi-Wan taught Anakin and Anakin has gone past him," he notes. "But when you get to that duel, it's emotional. That's where the mistake will be made. And if you know the characters, you know Obi-Wan isn't going to get emotional and he doesn't make mistakes."

Source: The Making of Star Wars Revenge of the Sith

A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented – but he hasn't learned the mental side of it. -Dueling Jedi press article, Nick Gillard

"The difference between the two characters is that Obi-Wan has more experience, but Anakin is more powerful." 

-- George Lucas, The Birth of the Lightsaber documentary

This is supported in the ROTS Novel itself, where Kenobi becomes certain that Anakin will defeat him and is essentially begging Anakin to slow down his attacks, despite Kenobi knowing Anakin’s moves inside and out, barely having to think to anticipate his attacks, and being the master of the most energy-conservative form (this method of energy conversation can also explain the TK-barrier exchange):

Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior.

 ...

 Obi-Wan barely caught some and flipped them at Anakin: a desperation move. Anything to distract him; anything to slow him down. Easily, contemptuously, Anakin sent them back, and the bolts flared between their blades until their galvening faded and the particles of the packeted beams dispersed into radioactive fog. (Revenge of the Sith adult novelization)

As Anakin’s lightsaber hummed toward him, a calm certainty filled Obi-Wan. Anakin was going to kill him. Oh, he’d make Anakin work for it. He’d fight with everything he had. But he was positive, with the sureness that came from any Force-driven insight, that he would die at Anakin’s hands. 

His lightsaber came up in an instinctive parry. They had sparred together so often that they knew each other’s favorite moves. Obi-Wan hardly had to think to counter Anakin’s attack. Lightsabers humming, they battled their way down the hall and into the control center. It felt … familiar, like another practice session, except for the exploding equipment. (Revenge of the Sith junior novelization)

“But it means that a Form III master is unable to mount a counterattack. Yet the minimalist defense preserves the Jedi's reserves while simultaneously tiring an opponent, and an exhausted enemy will eventually slip up, allowing a Form III master to score a victory.”

Because of its focus on short, economical movements that provide complete coverage from incoming strikes, Form III saw applications as defense against both ranged and close attacks.

Furthermore, Lucas claims that Anakin is as strong as the Emperor, whereas Kenobi is explicitly stated to not be able to compete with the Emperor by both Lucas and Yoda:

"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That’s what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn’t what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

“You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor”

(George Lucas, Making of Revenge of the Sith)

“Strong enough to face this Lord Sidious, you'll never be. Die you will, and painfully." (Yoda to Obi-Wan, Revenge of the Sith)

There is no doubt that Anakin is “enormously” beyond Kenobi in a vacuum per G canon. The question of how Kenobi was able to compete with and defeat Anakin, despite Obi Wan explicitly not being able to compete with the Emperor and Anakin being as strong as the Emperor, is also answered by G canon and the ROTS adult and junior novelizations, which override any other sources on the matter. Kenobi does not scale to the feats of Anakin, Yoda, or Sidious in any way.

Kenobi vs. Hett: Inferior in all Regards

Two years after the Clone Wars, Ben Kenobi discovers another Order 66 survivor, the disgruntled Jedi A’Sharad Hett. Hett had disavowed the Jedi way and taken up the mantle of a Tusken warlord pillaging across Tatooine, and so he and Kenobi naturally came to blows. The text notes that while Kenobi hadn’t fought with a lightsaber in a while, “he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine,” nonetheless, and “had not allowed his reflexes to become dull.” Simply put, he hadn’t declined, and was on the same level as he had been in Revenge of the Sith. Despite this, he required absolute focus while fighting Hett, and any distracting thoughts “would probably only get him killed.” Hett also scored several unarmed strikes in Kenobi, and the ones Ben did block, “he wasn't doing so with ease.” Basically, Hett was a legitimate rival to the same Kenobi that went toe-to-toe with Darth Vader.

This is capping.

While Kenobi had indeed “continued his Jedi exercises” and “had not allowed his reflexes to become dull”, this does not mean Kenobi is at the same level he was at in ROTS. In fact, It’s implied that Kenobi was being weakened as a result of all the Jedi dying due to the events of Order 66, having been fed by the force-ability of his fellow jedi and hearing every scream of death echo through the force, which broke his heart a little more each time:

Obi-Wan reached out to the Force to find him, but met only the thin stirring of a barren world. It was strange to live in a galaxy now that had no Jedi in it. He hadn't realized that he had once felt a humming presence, alive with the Force-ability of his fellow Jedi. It had fed him, and he hadn't even known it.

-The Last One Standing

Still, he (Ben) hated hiding while Jedi after Jedi was killed by agents of the Emperor’s New Order. He heard every scream of death echo in the force, and his heart broke a little more.

-Heir to the Empire Sourcebook

There are also various quotes describing how this impacted Yoda as well:

As Yoda approaches 900 years old, he is slowed down not by age but by a spirit broken after the destruction of the Jedi Order. 

-Star Wars Head-to-Head

Eyes closed, Yoda gave himself up to the Force. Yes, there it was — the sense of someone reaching for him. Almost, he succeeded. Something brushed close to Yoda … no, someone, someone who felt familiar. And then, suddenly, shock waves ripped through the Force. Jedi are dying. 

-Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith Junior Novel

Star Wars Head-to-Head in particular uses this as reasoning for the likes of Darth Vader to be “too powerful” for Yoda to handle at this point, despite Yoda practicing his skills and lightsaber techniques:

Vader proves too powerful for the venerable Jedi Master, who awaits a new hope to help bring balance to the force.

-Star Wars: Head-to-head

It is entirely possible that Kenobi too was “slowed down” and weakened by the destruction of the Jedi Order, as Yoda was, despite keeping up his training. As far as the actual fight between Kenobi and Hett, it’s noted twice that Hett has a considerable terrain advantage:

It was fortunate for Ben that he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine, that he had not allowed his reflexes to become dull. He did not think about how long it had been since he had last used his lightsaber in combat. Nor did he consider that he was older than Hett by at least a decade, or Hett's considerable skills with his own weapons, and that the Tusken was far more experienced at fighting in the desert. Ben knew that any such thoughts would probably only get him killed.

Ben blocked each blow, but he wasn't doing it with ease. Hett was far more experienced at fighting on the sand and in the desert heat. Ben knew that his opponent would never surrender, let alone withdraw. As much as he hoped to avoid killing Hett, he also knew that they couldn't keep fighting indefinitely.

Despite this, the fight isn’t exactly lengthy, and Kenobi manages to defeat Hett in relatively short order. Essentially, Hett was able to somewhat compete with a Kenobi who doesn’t necessarily scale to ROTS Kenobi despite the text noting twice that Hett had far more experience fighting on the desert terrain and in the desert heat (funny enough, circumstances like these can allow the likes of Kenobi to best Anakin despite the enormous difference between the two in a vacuum). I fail to see how this proves Hett is “a legitimate rival to the same Kenobi that went toe-to-toe with Darth Vader.” For all we know, Hett could be enormously inferior to Kenobi on neutral ground.

Darth Krayt: Weaknesses, Failures, Limitations, and Inferiority

This is misleading.

Krayt is able to sustain himself for far longer and in a far worse condition than that Imperial Knight example would have you believe. Seven years later, he fights Cade Skywalker for a few pages without tiring. The aftermath of the duel portrays Krayt only collapsing once he is out of sight of his servants and alone with Wyyrlok, indicating that he can keep his body going with his willpower and simple adrenaline (cf. in real life, while running, fatigue only sets in once you stop). Krayt has more than enough power to defeat Arcann, and can and will exert as much of it as is needed to get the job done.

This is capping.

The very scans you provided have Cade Skywalker claim the following after a brief exchange with Krayt:

Enough about me. Let’s talk about you. You and my dad opened my eyes to my abilities. I can see real clear now. I can see how sick and twisted up your insides are. I can see what fighting me is costing you. Those vong...things in your innards. Nasty little critters want to take you over real bad. What do they feel like, huh? Something gnawing your guts? Clawing at you? Tell me--do the other Sith know how sick you really are? How weak? What would they do if they knew?

And after the battle Krayt notes “The battle with Skywalker has cost me.” The idea that Krayt is not tiring over the course of the (brief) fight is explicitly contradicted by the text. I’m not sure how a brief duel with a far pre-prime Cade Skywalker is supposed to convince the judges that Krayt “has more than enough power to defeat Arcann, and can and will exert as much of it as is needed to get the job done.” What does Cade have to his name that warrants him even being in the discussion with the likes of Revan Reborn, who could “easily” and “instantly” disintegrates Darth Nyriss, who in turn absolutely embarrasses Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge in a fight:

She raised her free hand above her head and fired off another burst of lightning. Both Scourge and Meetra threw themselves clear of the deadly electrical bolt, but in doing so they gave Nyriss the early advantage.

Before they could recover, she leapt at them. Despite her withered appearance, she moved with the all the speed and ferocity of a dark side warrior in her prime. She landed right between her two adversaries, her blade flashing back and forth in a series of slashes and cuts that immediately threw her two opponents on the defensive.

Scourge barely managed to parry the first wave of her assault, unable to even think about countering with an attack of his own. Another quick thrust forced him off balance and he staggered backward.

Nyriss seized on the opportunity to focus all her efforts on breaking through Meetra’s defenses. The Jedi was clearly overmatched; though she managed to hold her ground, she was forced down to one knee.

In the awkward position her right flank was exposed, and Nyriss brought her blade in to deliver a crippling cut. At the same time, Scourge lashed out with the Force, catching Nyriss flush in the center of her chest.

An ordinary foe would have been thrown clear across the room, but Nyriss instinctively threw up a Force barrier to protect herself, absorbing and redirecting the brunt of the impact. Even so, Scourge’s attack knocked her off balance just enough to send her lightsaber wide of the mark, giving Meetra the opportunity she needed to scramble away to safety.

Scourge rushed forward, hoping to drive Nyriss back into a corner, but she met his charge with an invisible wave of rippling energy. It picked Scourge up and tossed him head-over-heels, sending him crashing to the wall.

Dazed, he looked up just in time to see another bolt of violet lightning catch Meetra in the chest. Like Nyriss, she threw up a barrier to save herself from the worst of it, but she was still knocked from her feet.

'Did you think I would be as easy to defeat as Xedrix?' Nyriss shouted, raising her lightsaber triumphantly above her head.

The air around her began to crackle and grow hot as she gathered herself for the killing blow. Scourge felt the energy building inside her, and he knew he would be powerless to stop it. Nyriss was too powerful; her command of the dark side was too strong.

This being the same Meetra Surik who slaughtered hundreds of elite sith assassins + Darth Sion + Traya on a “colossal geyser of dark side energy.” What you’ve shown is essentially that Vong Krayt has significantly drained his stamina fighting characters who have no business being in the same sentence as someone like Revan Reborn, much less Arcann. Speaking of characters who have no business being in the same sentence as Revan Reborn...let’s talk about Darth Andeddu:





















Here we see Wyyrlok has a relatively lengthy engagement with the newly-resurrected Darth Andeddu. While Wyyrlok struggles at first, he overcomes Andeddu’s initial assault and kills him with illusions. That said, it’s clear Wyyrlok is strained from the effort, as the last scan shows him sweating profusely after the attack. This indicates the battle was in no way a stomp, and Wyyrlok was genuinely strained from his duel with the God-King of Prakith. We have no reason to believe Andeddu was exceptionally more powerful here than he was during life, and if anything he would be weaker due to the fact that he’s expending energy dragging around a literal corpse as explained in the scans above. Given the chronology of Star Wars, Darth Andeddu could have lived at no time other than the Hundred Year Darkness, as he hailed from, and returned to, Prakith in the Deep Core, whereas the ancient Sith after the First Conflict were cut off from, and forgot about, Republic space, largely sequestered in the Stygian Caldera in the Esstran sector in the Outer Rim Territories (credit to Joe Bongiorno for piecing together this information). As such, Andeddu scales beneath the Exiles, who in turn scale beneath Star Forge Malak to a ridiculous degree, who is far below Revan Reborn, etc. This being the same Darth Wyyrlok who was able to somewhat contend with, or at least not get stomped by, the Reborn Emperor Krayt in their duel. Of course, Reborn Krayt is repeatedly stated to be more powerful than ever, which would include earlier incarnations of Krayt that had not deteriorated to the extent he had by 130 ABY.

The point of bringing this up isn’t necessarily to say that Andeddu scales to Krayt, but rather that there is a foreseeable limit to the extent Vong Krayt can scale above the likes of Andeddu, with no proof supporting the idea that Andeddu grew infinitely more powerful being trapped in a holocron for millenia nor proof that Vong Krayt scales to characters that would support this notion (i.e. Vong Krayt scaling above PT tier 9’s would imply Andeddu did indeed grow infinitely more powerful, but he doesn’t, and if anything his fights with both Cade and the Imperial Knights prove deterioration and limitations to the power he can bring to bear in combat without exhausting himself). This circles back to my point of cross-era debates being a matter of probability based on the respective feats and lines of scaling each character has and determining the more likely victor. To summarize going off of this thought:

• Azronger conceded the entire line of scaling for Arcann in my opening post, ensuring that Arcann scales far above powerhouses such as the Hero of Tython, Emperor Vitiate, and Revan Reborn, whose impressiveness is quantified above and in my opening post.
  
• Anakin’s theta storm feat is not quantifiably superior to Arcann’s deflection of Valklander’s lightning surge in Chapter 8, as Valklander scales absurdly beyond the likes of Darth Nyriss and characters infinitely more powerful than her.
  
• G-canon has decreed that ROTS Anakin is “enormously” beyond ROTS Kenobi, with Kenobi only being able to compete with and defeat Anakin due to unique factors that do not apply in a vacuum.
  
• Post-ROTS Kenobi does not scale to ROTS Kenobi, and the former defeats Hett rather soundly despite Hett possessing a significant terrain advantage.
  
• Azronger has still not proven that Vong Krayt’s stamina is enough for him to last against someone as powerful as Arcann despite him being winded after blitzing 4 Imperial Knights and 7 years later after a brief exchange with a far pre-prime Cade Skywalker, who Azronger has also not substantiated the impressiveness of.
  
• Darth Wyyrlok, who is able to face Reborn Krayt without getting stomped, is genuinely challenged by Darth Andeddu, who scales tiers below Arcann.
  

I hope the judges can look at this from the same lens I’m coming from regarding the “range of probabilities” approach, and deduce that Azronger has provided nothing suggesting Vong Krayt can compete with Arcann, much less defeat him soundly enough that his stamina won’t be a deciding factor, while I have substantiated Arcann’s own potency with a rather massive line of scaling.

Great post.

Great post

 

nice post

TO THE JUDGES: Skillz and I have agreed to a 7,500 addition to the character limit for my next post due to him being past the deadline so much.

"this is capping"... Skillz, ur killing me man.

Incredible post