SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Krayt (Azronger) vs Revan (DarthBane77)

Great post! This debate has been the most interesting in the tournament so far.

Az seems to have his work cut out for him.

@LOTL @Xolthol @IdrisianGraecus @StrangerThingsFan77 @MasterCilghal @Deronn_Solo: Remember to give @darthbane77 a star if you liked his posts.

I already did when I first read it.

Loved the post DB. Excellent job.

@darthbane77

Due to darthbane77 being late by 27 hours for his third post, I shall be granted 2700 extra characters for my finisher. He has agreed to this. Character count: 4900 / 5200

THE FINISHER

I’ve heard rumblings that I’ve cheated in my last post due to referring back to my debate with ArkhamAsylum3 to refute db77’s points. Be aware that this thought never occurred to me before db77’s last post which contained his accusations. My first post was basically a summary of my last debate with only a single paragraph tying it to Revan, yet no one complained, not even db77, so to supposedly have it be relevant now was genuinely unexpected.

As some know, I took a week off right after my third post went live; at that point I just wanted to be done with this and couldn’t bother regurgitating some of the arguments I had already made so I simply referred back to my last debate to get it done as quickly as possible. Note that my third post was published less than five days after db77’s - with my two-week deadline I would have had plenty of time to think of arguments, polish and fine-tune it, during and after my break, yet I did none of those things. Therefore, the idea that I was desperate, couldn’t think of counters, and just wanted to get out of a bind without conceding those points makes no logical sense. The second idea that I wanted to sneak in more characters is disproven by how many I used: my first post had 4200/10000, my second 9100/17500, and my third 12800/25000. I could easily have fit rebuttals to his points and then some. And even if this is a transgression, it's hardly a serious one as db77 doesn’t have much material to respond to anyway, so I don’t see how referring back to my debate with AA3 has had any impact that wouldn’t have occurred had I regurgitated those arguments. It should not be factored into the decision.

On the flip side, the judges must consider that db77 got the last word here. I can’t reply to most of his points, so by default they must be given less consideration in the verdict or it would be unfair. Regardless, his last post was full of arguments that missed my point, missed context, were based on fallacious logic, or just plain made no sense. A lot of the times he didn’t address my argument and made new points entirely, or didn’t respond with anything at all save for a snide comment, and sometimes not even that; sometimes he didn’t even quote my argument and pretended like it didn’t exist. He also repeated debunked arguments, and in such cases I could simply refer back to my previous debate; indeed, contrary to me doing that somehow being cheating, it actually reveals db77’s inability to come up with anything substantive and his only option being to retread old ground and desperately pray for a different outcome. And this is despite having 3000 characters left that he didn’t use, so to me it seems like he was simply outdebated and he is trying to obfuscate that, rather than him actually running out of characters. His first and second posts were plagued by the same issues - to a lesser extent, yes, but it’s still a problem, especially when he wasn’t able to point out a single instance of me committing a logical fallacy like I was with him.

Now, to summarize my stance and refute some points that I am able to:

• The only thing that made Anakin go from 8 to 9 was added power; he didn’t suddenly have a ”huge” increase in technical skill. Even characters well below his level like Darth Bane and Darth Maul have gone past the point of technical skill mattering and rely solely on giving themselves to the Force to make them more devastating in a duel; the likes of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Mace Windu are the same. So, if Vader were unable to draw on his power properly on Mustafar, he would expressly not be a 9. And the junior novelization proves his pain and trauma fueled his power rather than diminished it - a point of mine you ignored - so he wasn’t hindered. If Lucas chose to depict and approve Kenobi legitimately stalemating and deflecting Force blasts from Vader, the feats are legitimate irrespective of there being an ”enormous” difference between 8 and 9, which is an unquantifiable and vague descriptor in the first place. Kenobi ~ (able to stalemate telekinetically) KF Vader > Zonakin > Dooku.
  
• The Fact File quote being written by a historian is meaningless because the statement is repeated in the 2013 updated version, which isn’t necessarily in-universe (for example, The Essential Guides can be either in-universe or out-of-universe yet be part of the same series). TPM Mace > KotOR Revan.
  
• The Figurine Collection quote wasn’t addressed and still stands. AotC Dooku > TPM Mace > KotOR Revan
  

Vong Krayt ~ RotS Sidious > KF Vader > (”enormous” gap) Zonakin > (defeated in 12 seconds) Dooku > TPM Mace > KotOR Revan. Krayt is too far above Revan for the stamina difference to matter. I rest my case.

While it’s an interesting conclusion, I can’t bring myself to accept this in any way shape or form. Too many leaps for me.

Good finisher

A good old Az finisher.

Simple, but effective finisher.

Fantastic finisher DB. Great debate overall, this thread was a really fun read to tackle today.

I want to find out who won

That is up to @Bart and @DarthSkywalker0

Guess the admins aren’t going to decide the victor?

Azronger Post #1 – Okay so, I deliberated with Praxis and we agreed to judge your opening scaling based exclusively on what’s “on the page” so-to-speak. However, if you do make claims and cite your other debate with HP, we will use that. Now, let’s get on with it.

Since you haven’t cited the evidence for your scaling (for the above reasons), I’ll just assume in good faith that you’ll back these positions up as your opponent attempts to refute it. In terms of the actual scaling, it follows logically from one part to another; however, I do have a gripe with your assumption that if, theoretically speaking, Kenobi was Dooku’s equal on board the IH as you say, that this means Kenobi “scales to all of the Count’s feats, accolades and scaling.” This seems like a leap, but I’ll give you the opportunity to defend that if your opponent is smart enough to jump on it.

You’ve done a solid foundational job of explaining Kenobi’s relation to other duelists in ROTS, and cleanly tie up all your scaling and how they are all interrelated with establishing Krayt’s power level.

Finally, you’ve explained why this is relevant to Revan, and provide further exposition on Sidious/Yoda’s standing in the SW universe as the most powerful light and dark siders ever. Overall this is a classic, solid opener. 

Darthbane77 Post #1 – Bringing up the S6 fight is an okay idea, the point is a good one to bring up regarding the supposed gap between Kenobi and Dooku and how that allegedly closes in a period of half a year or so, supposing mega Kenobian growth. Since I’m not gonna be fact-checking your sources (unless they’re particularly colourful/critical), I’ll take your word for now that the novel suggests Dooku was tired from Anakin and Kenobi lulling him into a false sense of security. Your points about Kenobi not seemingly having a barrier up is fine but providing some extra coverage from other sources to reinforce that – perhaps the junior novel, script or whatever – would have added that extra oomph to the point. The points for Anakin’s POV is a little dangerous, but valid nonetheless unless your opponent challenges it and the fight in general. 

I find your criticisms of Kenobi’s relativity to Anakin to be a lot stronger, though you missed the chance to use the quote from the novelisation that states Kenobi and Anakin knew each other more intimately than lovers in regards to how they both fought, which would have been a great boon for you to add to the already extensive list of sources you’ve provided. What you say here “What we ultimately have here are very defined reasons why Kenobi was able to defeat Anakin, reasons that are unique to Kenobi, as well as clearly defined canonical placements for both characters.”; is a fair and legitimate point. 

You have your point about Krayt being exhausted after fighting the imperial knights, however, the sources you provide for it are admittedly vague and seem to speak in generalities. You do point out that the knights are basically more martial average PT knights, but I feel you failed to push the point that Krayt has been weakened over time, which brings to question the scaling Azronger presented for his continuous growth. That might just be me though. 

I mean, what can I say here? Exar Kun < Malak < KOTOR Revan is a common and solid scaling chain, in fact I doubt Azronger will even attempt to challenge it considering what he argues as TPM Yoda’s canonical superiority to Revan, for example, among others. You do make the interesting feat connection of Revan facing off against Sith that are more experienced in lightsaber/Force combat than the PT knights, in fact he fights off an army of them on a DS nexus compared with Krayt’s fight against the Imperial Knights.

I thought the Thon section was sort of unnecessary; there are probably better ways to scale off Exar Kun. However, it’s up to Azronger to refute your claims about Thon and the Sith spirits. For now, I’ll take it at face value.

I would have liked to see you at least address the Hett/Kenobi scaling.

-

Okay, given time constraints, I’m going to summarise the major points of the debate and then declare the winner. Praxis will provide more in-depth coverage. I was cut short of analysing each and every post, and I apologise to both debaters.

All in all, I found @Azronger to be the victor. Not only did he have a better case, but he also debated better insofar as he was able to turn his opponent’s points against him a lot more frequently than the other way around. I really wish I could say that db77 convinced me on some point, but unfortunately Azronger convinced me on every point (taking this debate in a vacuum). For the IH fight, the TCW duel appears almost irrelevant when the novel does prove that Dooku didn’t “ragdoll” Kenobi, although I feel as if db77 could have pushed it in a different way, rather integrating the two fights and explaining how their differences could be reconciled to still prove Kenobi is inferior to Dooku. Krayt’s exhaustion point was potentially potent, but Azronger’s explanation for how adrenaline works sealed the deal there. Although Revan’s SF feats are admittedly impressive, you failed to scale Revan’s power over Krayt’s, which is really the main focal point of this debate. It doesn’t matter if Starkiller has more TK feats than Sidious if Sidious is expressly more powerful, and the same thing happened here. In other words: you brought feats to a scaling debate. The Thon stuff was thoroughly rebuked, and although it does serve as an impressive feat for Revan to scale off, it’s also unquantifiable as Azronger points out, since the threat to the system was unquantifiable. 

Azronger was also able to make a connection for Kenobi with Gillard calling Mace an “8 bordering on 9”, setting the precedent for being able to contend with tier 9’s while being a tier 8, with Kenobi’s knowledge of Anakin’s fighting bridging the gap. Some of Azronger’s points were also left completely unaddressed, which isn’t exactly a good look, and points were docked for that as well. Finally, Azronger’s conclusion is a lot more precise and relevant to the topic, whereas DB’s points to scaling to Thon which has no relevance when Krayt remains scaled beyond Yoda and Sidious, whom Azronger placed well above Revan and a position db77 failed to debunk. There are some other points, but I don’t have the time; expect a more in-depth response from Praxis. 

Congratulations, @Azronger .

I wanted to get this post out as soon as possible so the grammar/punction might be a little rough but just bear with me.


WHO WON?

Let me just start off by saying that this was quite difficult for me to judge and that this was a very close match in my opinion. So for Az’s argument, I wasn’t sold on Dooku and Kenobi being equals or nigh equals but I do think he was able to establish that there wasn’t a massive gap between them like DB77 was arguing for given Dooku’s perception of Kenobi’s speed and Kenobi being able to deflect Dooku’s saber attacks in the way that he did. I also wasn’t really sold on Kenobi and Vader being close in ability/power outside the context of their duel and that it seems that Kenobi’s victory was achieved under very specific circumstances i.e. Vader being conflicted and Kenobi being extremely intimate with Vader’s fighting style and psychology. Kenobi matching Vader’s TK in a one-off showing, while impressive, doesn’t really establish any type of parity as I would need to see more consistent showings analogous to this to be convinced. I do think the Vader that we see on Mustafar would still be capable of clowning Dooku as Azronger argued since Dooku wouldn’t benefit from the same circumstances as Kenobi even if Kenobi was still an inferior of Dooku as of the fight. The Kenobi vs. Hett fight wasn’t really touched on that much over the course of this debate but I do think that Hett is within the ballpark of Kenobi during their duel on Tatooine, but not necessarily a close equal. There was never a case made for Kenobi being on the decline by the time of the Hett fight so for all intents and purposes Kenobi was about the same as we see him during ROTS. From what Azronger presented, Krayt should have grown quite a bit since his encounter with Kenobi but as for how much he grew exactly is a bit ambiguous. Whether or not he reached/was ever at the level of TPM Mace or AoTC Dooku is uncertain and going off the Fact File/Figurine quotes Azronger provided this is what would be required to make this victory as close to a sure thing as possible for Krayt. Since I don’t think this was concretely shown to be the case it really just came down to the comparison of feats/scaling that Krayt and Revan directly scale off of. Revan has direct scaling from Malak and the Exiles and fought through an army of Dark Jedi and droids aboard the Star Forge and then proceeded to defeat Darth Malak several times over. I would have liked if DB went into more detail as to why Revan scaling above Exiles/Kun/Malak/Thon should be deemed impressive as that was just sort of glossed over excluding the Ambria feat. I don't think DB ever really proved that KOTOR Revan was above Foundry Revan though as he never provided any sources on Foundry Revan being weaker than his earlier iteration so trying to scale the asteroid feat to KOTOR Revan didn't really work. The Ambria feat was attacked quite heavily over the course of the debate but in all honesty, I don't think scaling from the feat or not really changes the outcome as I found what Revan did on the Star Forge to be better than anything that was presented for Krayt in terms of scaling or feats. For Krayt he was somewhat comparable to ROTS Kenobi who was somewhat comparable to ROTS Dooku as A'Sharad Hett, underwent a century of growth after the Kenobi fight, was superior to Andeddu/Cade/Wyyrlok, and stomped some Imperial Knights but became fatigued afterward. I think the Bane scaling was appropriately dealt with by DB77 so there isn’t any proof that Krayt is above anyone that Revan could possibly scale beneath and by a feats comparison I found Revan to be more impressive. My vote goes to @darthbane77. Also for future reference, I would appreciate it if debaters didn't reference other posts of theirs instead of directly including the argument in the post as Azronger did since that makes it harder for us judges to evaluate everything being presented as we have to go through two debates instead of one.


Below are just my notes that were written as I went through the debate and haven't been proofread. They most likely won't be very coherent to anyone besides myself but I'm including them anyway just to show that I did put a lot of thought into the debate. Note that the red text is just stuff I copy and pasted from the participants.


POST 1: AZRONGER

1. Obi-Wan Kenobi vs. Count Dooku: this argument proposes Kenobi wasn't ragdoll fodder to Dooku and was legitimately able to compete with him in their duel onboard the Invisible Hand at the start of Revenge of the Sith. With it intact, Kenobi scales to all of the Count’s feats, accolades, and scaling.
   
   
2. Count Dooku vs. Darth Vader: this argument proposes Anakin Skywalker was able to obliterate Dooku once he drew on his anger; that his calm, Jedi self surpassed his Dooku-stomping self; and that his power was even greater on Mustafar in his duel against Obi-Wan Kenobi. With it intact, Mustafar Vader scales far beyond Darth Tyranus.
   
   
3. Darth Vader vs. Obi-Wan Kenobi: this argument proposes that while Kenobi was initially outmatched against Vader, his spiritual detachment during the fight elevated him to a level on par his former pupil, both martially and in the Force. With it intact, Kenobi scales to all of Skywalker’s feats, accolades, and scaling.
   
   
4. Obi-Wan Kenobi vs. A’Sharad Hett: this argument proposes that Kenobi had not declined at all during the two years between his fights against Vader and Hett, that his motivation to protect Luke boosted his power above what it had been against Vader, and that Hett legitimately held his own against and managed to pressure this amplified Kenobi. With it intact, Hett scales to all of Kenobi’s feats, accolades, and scaling.
   
   
5. A’Sharad Hett vs. Darth Krayt: this argument proposes that Hett grew massively after his duel with Kenobi from studying the dark side for several decades under XoXaan, then got another monumental increment from his experiences at the hands of the Yuuzhan Vong, and continued to study the Force for over 110 years leading up to Legacy # 1. With it intact, Krayt scales far beyond Hett.
   

Yoda also scales above Revan even as of The Phantom Menace per The Official Star Wars Fact File: "Alongside Mace Windu, with whom he served on the Jedi Council, Yoda was the most respected and most powerful Master ever to walk the corridors of the Jedi Temple." This ties into Tyranus in that he is close to Yoda in Attack of the Clones as articulated in ArkhamAsylum3's first post, making him, at the very least, an extremely good fight for KotOR Revan. More likely, however, is that Dooku is in fact Revan's superior, considering only a Jedi Master as strong as Yoda - hint: not Revan - could survive being bombarded with Dooku's Force powers per The Official Figurine Collection # 3: "Dark side powers enabled Sith Lord Darth Tyranus (Count Dooku) to manipulate the Force at will, hurling objects or casting devastating energy bolts. Only a Jedi Master as powerful as Yoda could survive such an attack.".


POST 1: DARTHBANE77

1. DB did a good job of demonstrating Dooku’s clear superiority to Kenobi. Dooku exploits Kenobi’s defenses multiple times in both fights and Anakin’s commentary demonstrates this as well. No evidence of growth between the respective fights either. Trying to scale Kenobi to Dooku is faulty given the gap.
   
   
2. DB did a good job of demonstrating Kenobi only beating Anakin due to mindset, rather than being of equal or greater power/skill.
   
   
3. (?)DB demonstrated that Krayt’s growth wasn't necessarily always positive due to the Vong coral seeds. How much the seeds affected Krayt though wasn’t really shown besides the Imperial Knight stuff. For all we know he could still be far beyond his Hett self.
   
   
4. Didn’t address Dooku vs Vader or Hett vs Kenobi: “To clarify something, I didn’t address your “Count Dooku vs. Darth Vader” or your  “Hett vs Kenobi” argument because I believe them to be entirely irrelevant after addressing Kenobi vs Anakin and Kenobi vs Dooku”.
   
   
5. Revan vs Malak vs Exar Kun: Established Kun scaling based off of Revan’s fight against Malak on the SF. Revan also fought through an army on the SF and defeated Bastila before confronting Malak. Didn’t really establish the potency of the army that he fought through besides them the Dark Jedi that he fights being “masters” of battlefield combat and “highly skilled” duelists. DB states that this is a better showing than Krayt’s Imperial Knight showing.
   
   
6. Exar Kun vs Thon: Ambria scaling. Claims that Krayt does not have any showings of power on the level of Thon.
   

POST 2: AZRONGER

1. Revan’s Scaling: Claims that Krayt scales above Cade’s ship TK feat. “I might as well say “This is a level of power [Revan] has never demonstrated being capable of using” like you did. Except that because the feats in the exhibits are entirely different in nature to Thon’s and therefore fundamentally disparate, you can’t say one is superior to the other. And besides that, I have issues with the way you’ve presented Thon’s feat”. Showed that Thon wasn’t passively containing the spirits in the lake through his power. Establishes the ambiguity of what “consume” means and what that means in relation to the power of the spirits. Claims that what Thon does isnt combat applicable and is meaningless to scale off of. “The only way to determine the winner between him and Krayt is to find a common reference point to which they both scale, which is what I did with Dooku, Yoda, and Sidious, and you did with the Imperial Knights”. Claims that Krayt stomped the knights and that Krayt having poor stamina as shown in the scene with Wyyrlok after the fight doesn’t mean he couldn’t keep fighting much longer since he can run on adrenaline and that the fatigue only catches up with him after the fight as shown against Cade. Showed that DB’s claim using the seed quote only applies to Krayt as of 137 ABY, not 130 ABY. Showed that Krayt’s longtime quest to restore his own power doesn’t necessarily apply to 130 ABY. Showed that there is no proof of the Imperial Knights being average, and claims that it doesn’t matter since Krayt didn’t struggle with them anyways, making it a faulty comparison between Revan and Krayt.
   
   
2. Darth Krayt’s Kenobi Scaling: Dismissed the S6 Kenobi Dooku fight and claimed that if parity can be shown between Dooku and Kenobi in IH fight then that is evidence within itself. Showed that Kenobi was tired and that Dooku had replenished himself right before he pushed Kenobi. Utilized SK vs Vader as an example of relative equals being able to exploit defensive lapses with TK. “And even if speed is the deciding factor, it’s quite baseless to suggest it denotes “a significant gap in power.” Dooku might literally have been just a millisecond ahead of Kenobi, which would honestly prove nothing”. Showed that Dooku had a difficult time keeping track of Kenobi’s movements as well as getting past his saber defenses. Dooku’s victory only appeared effortless to Anakin, but that doesn’t mean in actuality it took no effort for Dooku to incapacitate Obi-Wan. Claimed that since Kenobi didn’t manage to erect his Force barriers in time, Dooku would only have had to exert the amount of force required to hurl a normal adult human male body a dozen meters and render them unconscious, which for Dooku should be effortless. Claimed that the gap between Anakin and Kenobi was microbial but never addressed Gillard’s comment about the gaps between tiers being “enormous”. Showed that Kenobi was matching and deflecting Anakin’s TK as a sign of equal/relative power. “Kenobi was equalling Anakin on Mustafar; ergo, Kenobi should be the highest possible 8, and his familiarity with Anakin bridged the small gap between them”.
   
   
3. Darth Krayt’s New Scaling: DB77 resorted to author summaries which led Az to do the same. By author summaries Bane > Vitiate > KotOR Revan. By Bane’s encounter with Andeddu’s mind Wyyrlok > Bane therefore Krayt > Wyyrlok > Bane > Vitiate > KotOR Revan.
   

POST 2: DARTHBANE77

1. Cade TK/Thon stuff: States that Revan is capable of replicating due to scaling Malak/Kun scaling without really giving any examples of those who Revan scales off of as replicating Cade’s TK feat and then uses Foundry meteor showing as an example of Revan’s TK but didn’t compare it to Cade’s or establish why KOTOR Revan should be capable of doing what Foundry Revan did, as KOTOR Revan is an earlier iteration. Agreed that Thon and Krayt’s feats aren’t exactly comparable but can be used as a way of comparing respective power. “I’m not saying that Thon was actively keeping Ambria’s nexus contained. I’m saying his power and his power alone, imprisoning that energy “forever” or, in other words, “indefinitely”, is indicative of the potency of Thon’s powers. Basically, Thon’s power>>>the power of arguably the most powerful conventional dark side nexus in galactic history. How long it would take for those to occur is irrelevant, the fact the dark side energies were this potent is the point. The nexus in question is one that is disproportionately powerful to any other conventional dark side nexus in the mythos. Jedi Historians eventually agreed that the ritual on Ambria required more dark side power than any other dark Force user had ever called on before. This potentially implies that the nexus of Ambria was a more powerful source of Dark Side energy than the nexus created by Vitiate on Medriaas, the same nexus that he absorbed, which granted him his immortality and his status as the most powerful Dark Side user in the Old Republic era”. Didn’t really draw a comparison between what Thon did and TK though.
   
   
2. Imperial Knights/Krayt’s Stamina: Says that he never claimed Krayt didn’t stomp them, although he did say in his previous post that “fighting a few measly Imperial Knights was just about the cap of Krayt’s abilities”. Claims that Krayt would have to expend much more energy against Revan than he would against the Imperial Knights and that fatigue would inevitably catch up to Krayt. Used an analogy about running and getting tired while running but Az claimed that Krayt only got tired after the fight, not during. Successfully established Krayt’s decline by 130 BBY with the earlier quote he provided by noting the healing trances. Didn’t really build on the Knight’s being average point. Agreed that Krayt scales far above Wyyrlok and others around him and reaffirmed his stance about Krayt being unable to use his power for an extended period of time.
   
   
3. IH Fight: “Dooku was fending off both Skywalker and Kenobi at the same time, and thus should have been tiring more than Kenobi, who was being aided by Skywalker, and was facing only Dooku. The odds were against Dooku, yet Kenobi was still overpowered twice by Dooku, the same thing occurred in the duel from TCW”. Point here essentially is that Dooku was fighting against two opponents and Kenobi one but both were getting tired but Dooku was able to summon power to dispatch Kenobi. “So a tiring Dooku ragdolled a tiring Kenobi (after potentially replenishing his reserves), and then an exhausted Dooku ragdolled Kenobi a second time”. Dooku was being heavily worn down by Anakin’s attacks before the second TK attack to Kenobi. DB emphasizes that Dooku was capable of taking out Kenobi as soon as Dooku deemed it necessary - at will essentially - which seems to be a valid interpretation of the provided quote. Sufficiently addressed the SK vs Vader comparison and showed that it wasn’t really a valid comparison since “Vader’s doing so to Galen was a one off, which was quickly turned around” unlike what happened to Kenobi. Showed that Dooku was caught off guard and confused from Kenobi’s shift to Soresu - Kenobi’s preferred form - and claimed that the Count’s difficulty came from not having adapted to Kenobi’s sudden shift in style. Claims that Kenobi’s “blinding speed” is not coming from Kenobi’s own innate speed but rather his form. Not really a huge fan of this specific point but not up to me to refute it. Claims that Dooku ragdolls Kenobi after adjusting to his form. Rebuttal of the rebuttal on the “seemingly effortless” point wasn’t really anything to write home about, but don’t think it matters too much.
   
   
4. Kenobi vs Vader: Good rebuttal with the “enormous” quote from Gillard. Good use of quotes supporting Vader being hindered. Should have directly addressed the deflecting and matching of TK attacks during the fight.
   
   
5. Blurbs: Not really sure about this one. Gonna wait for Az’s rebuttal.
   
   
6. Revan’s Stamina: Basically “Revan fought entire armies, a fallen prodigy, and Darth Malak, and was not explicitly said to have been exhausted” and “Krayt fought four Imperial Knights, and was exhausted” and “the point here being that unless you want to argue that Revan would be exhausted at the end of dueling those four Knights, and if you can’t prove that Krayt would ragdoll/blitz Revan out the gate, then you have to concede that Krayt simply cannot last against Revan, who I established has comparable feats, and vastly superior stamina”.
   

POST 3: AZRONGER

1. IH Stuff: Pointed out that Dooku was fighting Anakin and Kenobi who were holding back tremendously in the beginning to show that the comparison between Kenobi and Dooku’s fatigue can’t be made here. “In contrast to fending off two seemingly weak opponents, Kenobi was fighting a single powerful one”. Said that “a fresh Dooku pushing an exhausted Kenobi isn’t valid” in response to the point about Dooku pushing Kenobi for the second time. Claimed that Dooku didn’t ragdoll Kenobi and just knocked him over, therefore not making Dooku vastly more powerful than Kenobi. Showed that the events in the game don’t contradict the novel for SK vs Vader and that Vader telekinetically exploited SK’s defenses twice. “There are multiple instances where Force-users have been successfully telekinetically attacked (e.g. Cade Skywalker vs. Karness Muur, Shadow Guard vs. Galen Marek, Arcann vs. the Outlander, Bastila Shan vs. Revan, etc.) and it’s not an indication of superiority”. Dooku isn’t confused when fighting Kenobi, just surprised by his speed. If Dooku’s confusion hindered him, then not applying that same standard to Kenobi and the Force push is a double standard since it’s stated that Dooku abruptly shifted tactics right before the push. Kenobi’s speed isn’t a function of Soresu itself. Anakin was done for twice as long as Kenobi but Anakin was shown to be too much for the Count. “In that very interview he gives an example of a character who is ”an eight bordering on nine”: Mace Windu. So there is precedent for Obi-Wan being on that level as well, and therefore being able to do as well against a tier 9 combatant as he did”. Anakin wasn’t weakened from a power perspective and couldn't sense Kenobi since “the more you tap into it for raw power, the less you’re able to hear its guidance over the noise of your own activity”. Anakin is still a tier 9 during Mustafar duel. “Krayt >>>> Kenobi < Mustafar Vader >>> Dooku”.
   
   
2. Krayt vs Revan: “KotOR Revan is beneath TPM Yoda, TPM Mace, and AotC Dooku - even after two posts, there has not been any attempt made to refute this (unless he’s deliberately waiting for the last post so I can’t respond). Per Gillard, Anakin’s transition from 8 to 9 is ”enormous,” and per my third post to ArkhamAsylum3, the Anakin who clobbered Dooku in 12 seconds was still an 8. Sidious and RotS Yoda are both 9’s and would therefore slaughter Dooku even quicker. Vong Krayt is probably above Sidious and Yoda per the logic chain in my first post”. Don’t know why he used the “enormous” quote here but threw it out earlier in his post. Claimed that Krayt would defeat Revan just as quickly as he defeated the Knights and reiterated the idea that Krayt would only experience fatigue after the fight. Spores didn’t start to consume Krayt until the end of the Sith-Imperial War. “That healing trances were attempted to remove the spores doesn’t mean they were killing him before”. Reasserted that Thon scaling can’t be used as a means to compare Krayt to Revan since Thon’s feat can’t be quantified in a way that compares to things that Krayt scales from. “Even if we assume Revan smashing boulders is “comparable,” you haven’t proven KotOR Revan scales from Foundry Revan to the same extent that Vong Krayt scales from drug addict Cade”. Pretty much destroyed the comparison between Ambria and Nathema. Reiterated Thon’s feat being unquantifiable due to the proposed ambiguity of the powers of the spirits. Pushed the knife in further with the blurb stuff. Vong Krayt > Wyyrlok > Bane > Vitiate > Revan.
   

POST 3: DARTHBANE77

Read the post and didn’t feel like writing everything down since a lot of the IH/Thon/Mustafar/Stamina stuff is rehash by this point. Claimed that Fact File/NEC quotes have questionable veracity since they are IU and written thousands of years after Revan’s time. Chee has said that the further you go back in history the less accurate information on that time period will be from an IU perspective. Claimed that the Bane v Wyyrlok comparison can’t be made due to the difference in the nature of their encounters with Andeddu. Bane was having to access a Holocron - an exceptionally difficult task per the claim - during his encounter with Andeddu while Wyyrlok didn’t have that disadvantage. “Both had difficulty with Andeddu, the difference is that once Bane gained control of the situation, he was able to thrall Andeddu and perform complex tasks. Wyyrlok struggled, gained control, and siezed the opportunity to kill Andeddu”. Didn’t really establish Foundry Revan’s standing in comparison to KOTOR Revan in a way that convinced me as no sources were provided regarding Foundry Revan’s state. Point on Ambria spirits being an active threat was good. Wasn’t really sold on the “blurb is contradictory since it takes into account all of history” point. I think DB may have misinterpreted what Az was doing by employing Chee. Az was just employing Chee against DB since DB decided to use him, not because Az actually believes in Chee has any authority.


AZRONGER CLOSING

1. The only thing that made Anakin go from 8 to 9 was added power; he didn’t suddenly have a ”huge” increase in technical skill. Even characters well below his level like Darth Bane and Darth Maul have gone past the point of technical skill mattering and rely solely on giving themselves to the Force to make them more devastating in a duel; the likes of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Mace Windu are the same. So, if Vader were unable to draw on his power properly on Mustafar, he would expressly not be a 9. And the junior novelization proves his pain and trauma fueled his power rather than diminished it - a point of mine you ignored - so he wasn’t hindered. If Lucas chose to depict and approve Kenobi legitimately stalemating and deflecting Force blasts from Vader, the feats are legitimate irrespective of there being an ”enormous” difference between 8 and 9, which is an unquantifiable and vague descriptor in the first place. Kenobi ~ (able to stalemate telekinetically) KF Vader > Zonakin > Dooku.
   
   
2. The Fact File quote being written by a historian is meaningless because the statement is repeated in the 2013 updated version , which isn’t necessarily in-universe (for example, The Essential Guides can be either in-universe or out-of-universe yet be part of the same series). TPM Mace > KotOR Revan.
   
   
3. The Figurine Collection quote wasn’t addressed and still stands. AotC Dooku > TPM Mace > KotOR Revan
   
   
4. Vong Krayt ~ RotS Sidious > KF Vader > (”enormous” gap) Zonakin > (defeated in 12 seconds) Dooku > TPM Mace > KotOR Revan
   

DARTHBANE77 CLOSING

Standard stuff.

For starters, props to both @DarthBane77 and @Azronger for making this an enjoyable debate to read. Both have done a great work at defending the character, though i already have a clear victor in mind. Also, though I’ve read the debate several times, I wanted to get my judgment out quickly, so there might be some grammar mistakes or repetitions, which might be worsened by the fact that this is the first serious debate I judge. Lastly, please don’t take any criticism I make personally, but rather as a chance to improve.That said, let’s examine the main points of contention/arguments and how each debater handled them:


(1)Dooku vs Kenobi:  Az raised this argument from the very first post, referencing his previous debate with AA3. On that note, while i don’t find it inherently wrong to quote another debate that in the context of a tournament, Az did abuse it by simply referencing it in specific points where i feel a detailed rebuttal was necessary, as DB77 correctly pointed out and especially since DB77 himself did not have such an option. Having said that, i feel like BD77’s rebuttals to it have insufficient until the penultimate post, which unfortunately would hold less weight since Az couldn’t respond to it. To summarize, DB77’s initial counter presented points which Az had already addressed in the previous debate (the TCW fight and Dooku’s  first “ragdoll”), the only real new point being Anakin’s reaction to Dooku dispatching Kenobi, which is a good point but certainly not a bulletproof one given that character’s opinions can be fallible. Az’s response was very effective as he used the supposed circumstantial nature of Dooku’s dispatching of Kenobi as evidence for it looking effortless to an external observer. The rest of the debate was going back and forth on these main points (along with a few others). Ultimately, I find it difficult to find a clear victor when it comes to this specific point. However, it doesn’t really matter since Az has later scaled MF Vader, who was matched by Kenobi, far beyond Dooku himself, which leads us into the next point.


(2)Kenobi vs MF Vader: here is where I believe Az presented an overall stronger case than his opponent: BD77’s use of the Gillard scale was ineffective since Gillard never specifies how high in the scale Kenobi is: he could be, as Az pointed out, a very high 8 while Vader a low 9, and the “Richter scale” point was also unconvincing, as the quote could easily be referring to the difference between a solid 8 and a solid 9 and doesn’t address Az’s rebuttal I mentioned earlier . Using that argument in the last post as well didn’t help his case either. While DB77’s last post tackled Az’s case in favor of Anakin being hindered I found Az’s the more convincing one, as it relied on quotes that were from sources directly addressing Anakin’s state rather than taken from different medias. His arguments for Kenobi’s supposed circumstantial victory have also failed to convince me. As an external observer, I find it difficult to believe a character can defeat a vast superior, which even BD77 agreed that Anakin is and Az reaffirmed it in his last post with a case that stands even without Anakin’s potential hindrances, whereas a power growth on Kenobi’s part seems far more likely. Overall, Az’s argumentation was stronger here, even if DB77 was not completely out of his depth. 


(3)Hett vs Kenobi: to my suprise, those arguments were left untouched for the entire duration of the debate. Given that AA3, in the previous one, made a case for Hett not being on par with Kenobi, I think DB77 could have pursued that argument too, especially since Krayt at least gets the scaling from Kenobi, which as Az explained, would scale him far beyond a (at least) tier 8 combatant, and DB77 would have to prove his own scaling for Revan compares to that. As such, I don’t see how it can be considered irrelevant, even without the other arguments. And it also means Az obtained an easy victory here
. 
(4)Krayt vs Hett: While DB77 did once again tackle Az’s argument with the Imperial Knights argument and Krayt’s need to restore his power, I was left unconvinced by both points, especially the first one. Yes, Krayt was left exhausted by his fights with Cade and the imperial knights but as Az pointed out, it does not matter since not only does Krayt only experience fatigue after the duels themselves, but if he scales vastly above Revan it means he would be able to take him out with equal ease. The fact that DB77 represented the same argument in the last post didn’t help either. A bit more convincing was DB77’s case for Krayt needing to restore his power, but even that had some problems. His entire argument was based on a few quotes, one which was from a publisher’s summary (more on that later) and which i think can be interpreted in different ways. Furthermore, no attempt was made at quantifying how much power Krayt can draw on with the coral seeds invading his body. 


(5)Supremacy quotes: here is where I feel DB77 did a far better job than his opponent, by catching him on a double standard, A.K.A. the Leland Chee quote, which leaves no room for supremacy quotes being really usable, and Az’s arguments was built on that, at least when it came to connecting Revan with the rest of the scaling. However, I don’t think this is a game changer for 2 reasons: first, it was presented in the penultimate post and as such Az had no means to rebut it, something I feel needs to be taken into consideration. Secondly, as I will explain later, DB77 himself made no attempts at drawing a direct comparison between Revan and Krayt (the stamina argument was debunked effectively and is not a direct scaling anyway). By contrast, at least Az created a scaling chain, even if based on quotes that his opponent proved to be objective (not invalid). Having said that, DB77 did successfully manage to debunk one of Az’s use of “GOAT” quotes and turned his argument against him, so congratulations for that. This also invalidates Az’s Bane arguments, so I’m not gonna address them.


(6)Malak/Thon/Kun/stamina arguments: This section is easily DB77’s biggest mistake in the entire debate. Sure, the scaling he presented is impressive and helps to give Revan a strong foundation and a high placement in the lore, but it should have been accompanied by some kind of direct comparison rather than just “This is a level of power that Krayt has simply never demonstrated being capable of using”  without any substantiation, especially since the Hett vs Kenobi argument was downright ignored. And Az did point that out that the fact that a character hasn’t shown something doesn’t mean he can’t do it so it was addressed correctly. he closest we got to we got to a comparison was the stamina argument, which unfortunately merely establishes Revan as a more sustainable combatant rather than a more powerful one. As for the Thon feat, I feel quite unsure on who I should give the edge, as both presented strong cases. The rest is a comparison between Cade’s and Revan’s TK feats, where as a reader I couldn’t find a real victor since the feats presented are not easy to compare. Ultimately while it’s true that, as DB77 notes in his finisher, that Az hasn’t debunked his feats but it’s really of no importance since he didn’t really establish why said scaling makes Revan better than Krayt. 

Overall, while both debaters did a good job at refuting the other’s points, I think DB77 did several mistakes, including not addressing the Hett argument, failing to come up with a direct comparison (unlike his opponent) and only presenting the argument that could have been a game changer as well as the strongest rebuttals in his penultimate post, which I, as a judge, really can’t give the same amount of consideration I gave to his other posts. Az did make some mistakes too, but his overall argumentation was stronger and his points convinced me more. As such, I give my vote to @Azronger, even if I will say, DB77 definitely made him work for it.

Nice. Good read

Looks like I lose. Congrats, Az. Good debate.

Congrats to both parties.