SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

DC77 (reborn) wrote:general distaste for Jaina wank.

Certainly better than Jacen>Kyp 

DC77 (reborn) wrote:Ah, how I've missed you Cilghal. We need to catch up on Discord once I return to Slorg.

MasterCilghal’s Opener

A) accolades: Although Traya’s true strength lies in her feats, she has a good number of decent accolades, both in regards to her power and skill. In this analysis, I’m gonna bring up one of, if not the most interesting of Kreia’s accolades, taken directly from the complete Star Wars encyclopedia:   This quote can be interpreted in two different ways:
1-Traya (while in the Trayus academy) is more powerful than Nihilus and Sion, which is extremely impressive given the two sith lords’ power, and it would make sense given that it took the combined efforts of Sion and Nihilus to defeat her. Of course on neutral ground it doesn’t apply but it would mean she at least in he same tier as Nihilus under normal circumstances.
2- Traya was more powerful than the exile during their confrontation, which would also make sense when we consider that throughout the story, Kreia’s superiority over the exile is pretty clear (link), at least not until the very end.

B) knowledge: Kreia’s force knowledge, thanks to her years of both Jedi and sith training/study and the fact that she was an historian, is simply incredible.
In fact, she was noted to have studied, like every master of the era,  the Jedi archives:In addition to this, Kreia studied extensively sith lore on such notable planets as Telos, Korriban and the Trayus academy on Malachor V, all of whom planets that were specifically noted to contain enormous knowledge about the sith:
It is important to point out that all the holocrons present there contained informations on combat techniques, as noted by master Atris, who studied them specifically to combat the sith:
"All this collected knowledge, all these teachings of combat and the Force - they are mine to command."
Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
At this point, You may be asking yourself why I brought up her knowledge in the first place. The answer is simple: as I will explain later, it’s going to provide her with an advantage against Jaina.

As you are probably aware, Darth Traya was many compelling feats in regards to her command of the force, but since this  is just an opener I’m gonna focus on  the most substantial one: that being her ability to ragdoll the three Jedi masters Vrook, Kavar and Zez-kai Ell. First of all, here is the sequence:  1)explanation
Although in the official version she only appears to blast them away, the original version ( which didn’t came out only because of the need for an early release, and therefore can be used) depicts her literally doing what I described earlier, holding all of them at once with little effort, which proves  she can indeed ragdoll them. Furthermore, the fact that she could instantly drain them afterwards  further proves she could have tossed them around at any moment, and apparently with little difficulty.

2) how powerful those jedi masters are?
What makes this feat so impressive is the fact that all of those three Jedi masters have great accolades in regards to their power in the force and share a particularly impressive feat.
First of all, Kavar is noted to possess particularly advanced force powers:
       
In KOTOR 1, the three Jedi are noted to be some of the most powerful in the order:Later, after Kreia drains them with the force, she notes it had to be done because she could not have let such powerful Jedi masters live:Lastly, in what is possibly their most impressive feat, they are implied to have rebuilt the Jedi enclave on Dantooine in a short amount of time, which had been destroyed by Darth Malak during the Jedi civil war. I won’t explain  my reasoning, but simply give you a link to a blog made by Nova, who i greatly thank again, where it is explained how any of the three could have done it single-handledly (link). Overall, those three Jedi are among the best of the era and possess sufficient power to move the stones of a massive Jedi enclave.
To conclude this section, the scaling is: Kreia>>>>Dantooine jedi masters
This gives you an idea of just how powerful Kreia is and how much telekinetic power she can muster up.

Traya’s main area of expertise, as has already been made clear is her command of the force. Having said that, she has some good accolades in regards to her lightsaber skill.
under the name of Arren Kae she was noted as a skilled warrior: Secondly, the sith of that era obtained their rank by proving themselves among the most skilled with a lightsaber, which probably included Kreia: Although Kreia does not have many feats in the game, we can infer that, as she is the final and toughest opponent in the game, that she’s pretty skilled.
Furthermore, Kreia has extensive knowledge of the lightsaber forms, which she taught to the exile (link), was known to have wielded a double bladed lightsaber as a Jedi, was a master of the rare and difficult trakata tecnique, and kinetic  combat , all of them being practices that require advanced mastery:

First of all, the amount of knowledge Kreia possesses, in regards to force techniques far exceeds Jaina’s own. Even the most knowledgeable jedi in the NJO, Tionne Solusar, noted how much knowledge and holocrons had been lost after the galactic civil war:Furthermore, the primary reason for why Jaina trained with the mandalorians was her total lack of knowledge of the force techniques Caedus could employ against her in their upcoming confrontation. This means Kreia has access to a far greater repertoire of unorthodox force techniques, many of whom can be applied combatively. Telepathic attacks like force fear can be used to off-balance Jaina, while force drain ( against which Jaina has no defense) can be used to weaken her, in a similar way to how Krayt used the technique against Abeloth and Luke Skywalker ( link).

Kreia, while maybe not Jaina’s equal with the lightsaber, is still a capable opponent and can compensate by employing techniques such as trakata to off-balance Jaina.

Her telekinetic feats and scaling are just...better. Jaina was clearly inferior to a massively weakened Caedus during their final duel (link) has had difficulty with the featless (at least in this area) Alema Rar and her best telekinetic feat in her prime was sending parts of a collapses wall flying in backlash and force pushing sith sabers, so nothing points to a massive power growth between LOTF and FOTJ and It’s not that great in comparison to what Traya has done (which will be explored further in subsequent posts). In fact, Jaina herself conceded inferiority to the Jedi masters on the council and even some jedi knights in invincible, opponents Kreia would ragdoll with contemptuous ease.

Overall, the odds are against Jaina’s victory and it could be argued Traya’s victory is downright easy.

Spoiler:

xolthol’s Opener

I will here made my opening and explain why Jaina will win this fight. Because I didn't think this is the place and time to do this, I won't respond directly to what my opponent bring in his own opening. I will divided my post in two parts: first of all a brief view of how powerful Jaina is then a more concrete analysis of what give her the win here. With all of that said, lets start the fight slaughter.

Jaina Solo, grand daughter of Darth Vader is whitout a doubt a great warrior as shown by the title that she earned, the sword of the Jedi. But she has more than just this simple title, she has also this accolade:What this quote gives us to know ? First of all, we learn that at this time, Jaina is the "combat equal" of anyone
[*]in the Jedi order. This clearly emphazise her fighting capacity, not on her diplomacy skills or even that she is the closest to the perfect jedi. This even didn't proove that she is the more powerful force user of the Order. This expression gives us way more usefull information. Indeed, as a fact we know that in a fight (which include the use of the Force, your lightsaber, your martial knowledge and your environnement ) so in an all out, she is the equal of anyone.
Obviously she cannot be at the same time the equal of younglings and the equal of masters... The quote refer to the fact that she is the equal to any top fighting Jedi masters, which include: Kyp Durron, Saba Sebatyne, Kyle Katarn. (I think that we can agree on the fact that this three jedi are the very top of the order at this time). Because of this we know that Jaina is able to fight at least[**] as an equal with someone as powerful in the force as Kyp, as resilient and physically dominant as Saba and as with as knowldge in the lightsaber as Kyle. So we can see that Jaina is a really complete fighter who can deal with any sort of ennemy that she faced.
And the most interresting part in this is the fact that Jaine had proven more than once this equality to anyone in the Order. So this isn't questionable at all.

[*]Nota bene 1:

A common way used by people to dismiss this quote is by saying that Jaina isn't the combat equal of her uncle Luke Skywalker based on this quotes: But this reasonning is clearly false based on a simple fact. During the time of FotJ Luke Skywalker wasn't in the Jedi Order. He left in exile because he think that he had failed his duty by letting his nephew Jacen Solo becoming the sith lord Darth Caedus. So he isn't in the Order anymore and the quote is still valid.[**]Nota bene 2:
I have used "at least" in order to made explain something that must be taking into account: the quote undirectly explain that Jaina is the above most of the members of the jedi order by using the rethoric figure which made her equal to the top jedi of the order. But we can also legitimately think that this rethoric figure can apply also to the top Jedi, which will make Jaina their superior and the best Jedi of the order from a combative point of view.

A brief scaling

Let me introduce the Community, a group of clones who are physical copy of some force users such as Kyle Katarn, Kam Solusar and Jaden Korr. Even though they are clone, they can use the Force in pretty impressive way.A- RUNNER

Runner is the clone of Kyle and even though he has a wide array of capacities, one of his most devastating was his telekinesis. I will just take a single feats in order to show you just how powerful Runner is.
This feat can be seen as not really impressive but when you look cautionly, it is really insane. First of all, Runner didn't push the speeder all the time, he just give it the first (and only) impulse. Then the speeder wasn't flying at all, he was sliding on the ground so the physical friction must had take a important part of the initial energy. Last but clearly not least the speeder hit a building and because of this the building half collapsed. And this wasn't because of some explosion: Metal shrieked and bent. Glass shattered this was only because of the sheer speed and weight of the speeder.
Basically, what he have done here prove that he can easily with a single push half-destroy a building. And he is far from working at his full power.B- SOLDIER

Another clone was called Soldier, he was the clone of Jaden Korr. And this clone is the best of all clones so he is obviously better than Runner.C-JADEN KORR

Now lets see a TK confrontation between Jaden and the two clones:Basically, you can see that even the combine might of the two clones isn't enough to defeat in a sheer TK competiton Jaden Korr. In addition to this, you need to acknowledge two things:

The sum of the power of the clone is less than the power of their sum (basically what we call constructive addition : 1 + 1 > 2). This is explain here:
The blast that Jaden resist is just way bigger than the one throw by Runner, this is a continuous TK strike and a under lots of intense emotions : Anger poured off both clones, anger born of years of frustration and mistreatment. It hit Jaden like a hailstorm.


With that in mind we have now this scaling chain:

Jaden >~ (Soldier + Runner) in rage mode > (Soldier + Runner) > 2x Runner >>>>>> Crushing a whole building.D- Jaina Solo

As shown in the previous part, Jaina is around Kyp/Kyle/Saba level of fighter. So she is clearly above someone as powerful as Jaden Korr.
If you want to argue that sheer power isn't everything in a fight, I will agree, but Jaden is far from being a shitty fighter. In fact he is exactly the opposite: he is an awesome fighter.
Indeed he faced and defeat Boba Fett (you know, the guy who fought against Vader and survive)

(At 5:43, you will see Boba Fett defeat by Jaden Korr)All of this show you just how good is Jaden as a fighter. If you add to this his insane force power and you have a monster that is still below Jaina Solo.

Power of Traya ?

Even though, I said that I won't counter your first post, I will just adress a part of it that you didn't directly write. I'm obviously talking to the blog done by Nova about the rebuilding of the Jedi enclave on Datoine. Tbh I find this theory absolutely stupid and fan-based... I will say that it biggest mistakes lay on the fact that building an enclave isn't only a matter of power (the one to lift stones). It is mainly a matter of building skills, putting the right stone at the right place then applying the right amount of cement. Clearly it is possible for the jedi masters to have help rebuilding this place but this is absolutely illogic to think that they have been able to rebuilt it on their own and in only a matter of hours... just ridiculous.
If I take this out for Traya, she haven't any real good feat:


Slaughtering three jedi masters with some random quotes... Not really impressive and absolutely not relevant when comparing to Jaden feat.
Having some quotes for her... every characters which are at least a bit important have one or two
being defeated by a far from prime Nihilius... not a feat at all. She only survive because Nihilius didn't consider her as a threat.


Clearly she haven't anything in term of power that can allow her to compete with Jaina.

A combative failure versus an accomplish fighter

But even though you can prove that Traya is more powerful than Jaina (which is clearly not the case), you will still need to explain how she can defeat Jaina while she failed to win against the jedi Exile Meetra Surik.
And all the problem of Traya is resume in her fight against Surik:
-> she is factually more powerful than Meetra-> she faced her on the Dark Side nexus of Malachor V which is known to be immensely powerful, particularly in the Trayus core:The nexus must have amp insanely Traya and weakened even more the Exile.

-> Before facing Traya she have face countless ennemies, all amp by the Dark Side of the Force.
And this sith have been specialy trained to defeat jedi:



To sum up all of this we have:

DS amp Traya >> Normal Traya > Meetra Surik >> DS Hindered Surik > Tired of countless fight DS Hindered Surik.

And even with all of this advantages, Traya loose ! She must be a real failure.
Clearly in order to defeat Jaina she will need to be way above her in term of raw force power, but to an extend that will made DE sheev looks like a youngling.

Clearly there is zero way for Jaina to loose this fight.

As shwon above, this will be a slaughter. Jaina have both the power and the skill to take down Traya. This latter just cannot compete with the Sword of the Jedi. I think that @mastercilghal should concede this match before loosing more

Meatpants/Cilghal’s Post #2

I'm stepping in for Mastercilghal after he resigned from the debate after personal reasons. Good luck to Xolthol, and let's begin.

Jaina only has one possible avenue from whence victory can be clinched against such a superior Force wielder. Let's begin to properly examine why it's also wrong.Specifically, you allege that Luke isn't in the Order by this point, thus disqualifying the quote as false, since Jaina cannot be the combat equal of Luke Skywalker. However, the quote in full context proves otherwise:As Jaina is objectively not the combat equal of Skywalker, this quote is rendered worthless. More importantly, feats and demonstrations of fighting ability are more important than accolades that are inherently contradictory, and you've failed to provide any showings from Jaina that establishes her as a lightsaber combat or force wielder capable of defeating Traya. Your entire argument is predicated on the reliance of this singular quote, and that quote is not valid. I will therefore not address the scaling you've attempted with the clones.

You've labelled Traya ragdolling three Jedi Masters as "unimpressive". I beg to differ, the feat is undeniably extremely impressive. For one, demonstrate a feat of Jaina's that matches or surpasses it? All three masters are masters of Juyo, the seventh form of lightsaber combat, as all three can teach the form to the Exile in KOTOR 2. Juyo requires mastery of all six previous forms to study:Thus, all three masters have mastered up to Niman, and can at least teach Juyo, if not mastering it's use, considering none of them give into their emotions while using it. I would be remiss if I didn't note Kreia's own comments on the form:

"Perhaps one of the greatest styles, learned only by the most skilled of Force wielders. Impressive."

Additionally, all three Jedi are capable of teaching the form Force Mastery, of which Kreia comments:Thus, all three masters were among the highest in the Order. Additionally, Vrook specifically is elsewhere stated to be among the most powerful of the Order's Jedi Masters:
In order to give better depth to the relative power of Vrook, and perhaps the other masters, Bastila herself admits inferiority to what can only mean the Council members; this is despite being overconfident and drunk on the power of the Star Forge and also having her powers enhanced by her turn to the Dark Side:Kreia first simultaneously chokes the masters, before cutting them off from the Force:The three council members are among the most powerful Jedi of the era. All three have mastered the seven forms of lightsaber combat, and have mastered all the force forms, including Force Mastery, which is learnt by only the highest Jedi Masters. They also scale above DS Star Forge Bastila. Additionally, there were on a LS nexus when they died. Being able to ragdoll someone requires being exponentially more powerful, and Kreia ragdolls all three simultaneously, meaning she's exponentially stronger than the combined might of three of the most powerful Jedi of the KOTOR era. This is an impressive feat the far outstrips anything you've brought to the table regarding Jaina.

You've described Traya's loss to the Exile as an anti-feat, but there's no real basis for this, especially considering that Meetra Surik is also a superior combatant to Jaina, thus your point becomes moot. Although the KOTOR Campaign Guide writes "Although Traya was more powerful, the Exile managed to defeat her in combat." It's unclear whether this is based on their neutral power levels, or exclusive to Traya being amped by the core. Regardless, it's impossible to glean anything from this, as your own scaling has been disproven, and what's more, Surik is superior to Traya and has accolades and showings of skill and power far beyond that demonstrated by Jaina.

Traya spent her life as a Jedi studying the ancient secrets, collecting artifacts and holocrons of the past:
Korriban, a treasury trove of ancient Sith knowledge holds little secrets from her:

Additionally, Kreia read from ancient texts on Malachor, teaching Sion and even Nihilus, showing him how to harness his power ("Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights..." KOTOR 2):And also from the hoard of Sith holocrons (stated to be dozens by the Prima Guide, so at least 24) Atris had collected, which are confirmed as containing power and combat techniques:It's easy to argue that Kreia's knowledge of both Jedi and Sith arts exponentially surpass Jaina. Kreia knows more techniques in the Force as well. Noticeably, Traya can conceal herself without giving off her dark side alignment (she does this throughout the course of the game non-stop until around the end), something Zannah required sorcery for, and found it extremely difficult to keep up.

Traya doesn't posses one singular feat (despite it being massively impressive), but has several. Take for example when she one-shots more than a dozen elite Sith assassins on Malachor V:

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5471965-7598304148-9DL3z.gif

The developer script description:

{Gameplay Programmer: In the next scene, cut to a shot of Kreia from behind, with Dark Side assassins materializing behind her, whispering - there should be almost up to 20, enough to make the audience go, "oh crap."}


{Gameplay Programmer: Cut to a camera of Kreia's face, smiling. She does not turn around as the assassins advance.}


{Gameplay Programmer: Cut to black, play Kreia's stinger - I want this to be a "flash of black" like a quick cut in a movie.}


{Gameplay Programmer: Cut to a scene of Kreia still walking along the same path, but ALL the assassins are lying dead on the ground.}


We can therefore reasonably glean that Traya achieved this feat without effort.

What's more, Traya's saber skills are impressive. She was the most skilled lightsaber duelist of the Sith after the death of Darth Malak:She also used a double-bladed lightsaber as a Jedi, is familiar with all the forms of lightsaber combat (with mastery in at least the first three), and utilises the unique lightsaber form/technique Tràkata. One technique Traya can match Jaina in, is the use of shatterpoint. Traya can perceive shatterpoints on a planetary level:
Assuming that Kreia is also Arren Kae, she was the match of the greatest Echani warrior, Yusanis:This would give Traya the knowledge of all Echani rituals, techniques and abilities, such as being able to predict battles minutes in advance without the use of the Force:
Even in unarmed combat, Traya has an extreme advantage over Jaina.

This fight is a mismatch. Jaina has not been demonstrated as being a match in any category to Traya, be it force knowledge, lightsaber skill, unarmed skill, experience etc. And I don't see any reason with how this battle plays out: Traya simply cuts Jaina from the Force and she dies instantly. Even if the battle devolves into a lightsaber duel, there's no evidence playing Jaina above Traya in dueling ability, and Traya is more capable of using Force techniques mid-combat. The outcome is simple.

[*]

Thank you, I hadn’t noticed it.
Jokes aside, this statement, even in and of itself doesn’t tell us anything and i’ll give you a very simple explanation for why it it simply an hyperbole and cannot be taken literally. “The equal of anyone” refers to all members of the Jedi order, but there is no way Jaina could be the equal of, for example, Kyle Katarn and a padawan at the same time, considering that the two are on completely different levels in skill, it would be an illogical idea. Rather it is a vague way to tell the readers that Jaina is skilled, that’s all. Not sure how you can come to this conclusion. It could very well refer to a yougling if we are to take it at face value. Coming to this conclusion requires too much assumption; Katarn, Saba and Kyp aren’t even mentioned. I would agree with you if the quote were something like“among the best in the order”, but this is far too speculative.
if this argument doesn’t convince you, I can assure you the next one will be more than sufficient.

This is objectively wrong. Luke had just resumed his position as the GM in the previous book, ascension. Here is a statement from the essential reader’s companion’s description of the book’s plot that specifically says Luke resumes his title as GM after his return and Coruscant ( which he could do given that Chief Daala had recently been removed from office): As you correctly pointed out, Jaina’s power pales in comparison to Luke’s and is therefore stupid  to conclude the quote applies to him, which it would if you were to take it seriously.
Exactly, You’re proving my own point. ( and contradicting yourself) ,that statement is just a figure of speech, however, as I already proved it’s both far too vague and can simply be dismissed with the Luke skywalker argument I presented.
Honestly, I’m surprised you brought it up considering that it has been debunked so many times in the past.

I don’t get how being a clone is a problem to one’s force connection. Could you please explain this a bit more in depth?

Very good feat indeed. However, it doesn’t prove he can destroy a building of even half of it. It was the speeder itself which caused the damage by impacting on the building, not Soldier’s own power.

What I don’t understand is why you didn’t mention the hospital feat, which to me seems far more impressive.

Jaden did indeed menage to TK stalemate the two clones, however i find it a stretch to argue he was equal, let alone superior to the two clones. In fact, initially, he struggles against Soldier alone:Later, in the passage you presented, it Jaden makes it clear that, sooner or later, he  would have been overwhelmed by the combined power of the two clones, not to mention the incredible amount of effort required to him in order to hold them off: Overall, You cannot possibly argue Jaden is superior to the two clones combined. All evidence points to him being unable to hold them off forever. The best he can possibly achieve ( and that  has  been shown achieving ) against them is a stalemate. I really don’t understand why you came to this conclusion. Other than that I agree with everything that was presented, Jaden is a truly impressive jedi.

I acknowledge the Boba fett feat is extremely impressive for Jaden, that I won’t deny. However, I found a lot of issues with the fights you provided, which to me point to a lack of a deep research on your part. the first of the two fights, which comes from Star Wars tales #11, was never canon even before Disney came in, and we can therefore dismiss it completely.  In the latter example, there are a great deal of circumstances:Vader was looking for a chest which he desperately needed and that Boba was carrying, meaning he wasn’t going all out against him from the start (and that’s basically why Boba lasts so long) . It’s downright stated by Vader himself. Furthermore Vader was fairly overconfident, which further added to the apparent “difficulty” (he still beat him pretty easily every time he menato close the distance)  he was experiencing when facing the renowned bounty hunter. His vast superiority over Fett is unquestionable.
This fight also takes place around 3 BBY. Don’t forget that Vader still had to go through a massive growth in regards to his combat skill, in fact he is described as a far more capable opponent in ESB than he was in ANH ( which is later than the events in the comic, I might add)and don’t forget that around this time period he was struggling against not-particularly-impressive jedi like An’ya Kuro.
Here is the statement I was talking about: Ultimately, Jaden’s feat is certainly impressive,but using Vader as an example doesn’t prove anything, since his enormous superiority over Boba while vastly before his prime is pretty much undeniable. Plus there’s the fact that Boba was far older when he faced Jaden.

This leads me into my next point: is Jaden truly a great fighter, as you are suggesting?
Unfortunately the all indications are to the contrary or at least not quite as great as you are suggesting.  Jaden’s performance when engaged in a lightsaber duel, at least in his prime, isn’t all that impressive. First, in crosscurrent, he only menages to achieve a stalemate against and injured jedi master Relin, a random Jedi from the old republic:Yes, I am aware that Jaden “could not quite place the man’s fighting style”, but it is equally true this lack of knowledge would have gone either ways, especially considering that the NJO developed new fighting styles completely unknown to the old jedi. this jedi has no particular accolades of feats that point to an unusually high level of skill.
Overall, Jaden is far too inconsistent to truly declare him a great fighter, you’ll have to come up with more than an isolated instance. But that’s not so relevant to this debate. Let’s get to the next point.

You have proved it through a wrong interpretation of a quote that was not intended to be taken the way you did and that i already debunked in its entirety. In fact, My reaction after reading this was like: “ ok interesting, but  what does Jaina have to do with all this?”. Simply put, You haven’t proven she is on par with Saba or Kyle in any way, and as such this scaling falls apart completely.
But let’s, for a moment, pretend she is on that level. You still haven’t provided any valid proof
that Saba and Kyle (let’s exclude Kyp for obvious reasons) are Jaden’s superiors. I imagine this assumption is based on the fact that the two are masters while Jaden is only a Knight ( because Jaden actually has some feats that exceed both, like the aforementioned Boba Fett fight) . In case this comes up as an argument, I’ll give a simple counter to it:  
1-being in a different rank doesn’t necessarily speak to one’s superiority to those ranked beneath said jedi, this applies specifically in the NJO, as seen in monologue from Jacen: -source: TUF

2- Jaden was actually offered the rank of master but he refused due to personal reasons.

Overall, you have provided nothing that scales Jaina above Jaden in any meaningful way, except a weird quote that I’ve already debunked.  

Conclusions
1- in stark contrast to what you provided, Traya is a great fighter and an extremely powerful force user based on her scaling from the three masters on Dantooine ( which MP has already addressed and that I will address further in my response to your next post)
2- Jaina’s only major accolade is nothing more than a wired way to say that she’s skilled in her own right, but does not apply in the way you say.
3- Jaina doesn’t get any scaling from Jaden Korr.
4- all my previous arguments about Jaina’s embarrassing showings and her inability to stand against Traya’s drain still stand.

Good luck @Xolthol with your response.

xolthol’s Post #2

Since the start of this debate, Traya killing the three Dantooine jedi masters is the only real feat that you have provide for her. Lets explain why this feat isn't as relevant as you want us to believe....

What have you bring on the table for the Jedi Masters ?

1°- LIGHTSABER SKILLSThis isn't really significatif to know that they have mastered lightsaber technics when in an only Force battle. And knowing that Traya killed them only via the use of the Force, I failled to see in which way this is relevant.

2°- FORCE KNOWLEDGESo they know how to teach an impressive Force technique. So they have a good knowledge. I beg your pardon but isn't knowledge something different from force power ? Yes the knowledge of something is like a tool. If you have more tools, you are more likely to solve any type of problem. But to draw a comparison, having a spoon won't help you to cut your bread... The fact that they have knowledge isn't at all the proof that they are powerfull.

3°- Force powerYes, really impressive quote indeed... But I think that you have missed a really important point here. When you quote Bastila saying:
This take place before Malak launch an assault on Dantoine, killing and capturing lots of Jedi:So you just have a quote explaining that before Malak attack, there was powerful jedi masters. You have no proofs:

that after the attack this "most powerful jedi masters" are still alive
that this jedi who are dead are include in Bastila claim
that the three jedi masters are part of "the most powerful jedi masters"


The scaling chain that you've tried to create just failed here...
The confrontation between Darth Traya and the three jedi Masters is something that you didn't explain.

Lets see what happend in this fight to have a better understand of the context.

The 3 jedi masters start to try to sever the Exile from the force once again.
Traya attack them, pushing them against a wall (they are taken by surprise)
Two remains on the floor and only Vrook stand up before being pinned to the wall once again
Then Traya lecture the three jedi. During the speech she explains that this three jedi masters are afraid: "But I see what happened now. It is because you were afraid".
Eventually they attack Darth Traya with their lightsaber and are killed by her Force Drain.


So we have many factors that can explain why they loose so easily to Darth Traya: being tired because of the try to sever from the Force an unwilling Exile, being blast powerfully against a wall, being afraid of the exile (so having more difficulty to draw on the force), attacking with their lightsaber Traya who use only the force here.
This last point is indeed a mistake because the Masters knows powerful techniques but not whithout drawbacks:In addition, the whole speech of the lady of the Sith is clearly a sort of Dun Moch. Indeed, she just taunt the three jedi masters by saying that they deliberately didn't act as they should have done. She talk at each one precisely, showing a deep knowledge of their life. And the technique is pretty effective when you see that neither of the three jedi attack her even though they have ignite their lightsabers.

As everyone can see, with all the context the feat seems way less impressive.

Just before closing this part, I will to reat to one of your claim:I think that is mainly based on the quote from Bastila Shan explaining that: "There is great strength within this place." Obviously this is a misconception. Here the great strenght isn't some sort of LS nexus but the jedi academy of Dantooine with its pretty huge defensive system. You didn't give any other proof for your theory of the LS nexus, so clearly none have any reason to trust you this theory.
To sum up the part, we have that Traya killed with the Force three Jedi Masters who are pretty skilled in lightsaber and with some knowledge of the Force with lots of advantages on her side. Clearly this feat isn't impressive at all and I fail to see how this is supposed to be a proof that Traya is above Jaina in term of Force power.

In this part, I will explain why all the knowledge that Traya have won't be a game-changer against Jaina.

~Force Knowledge of Traya~Indeed, knowing that Darth Traya have is a really scolar characters (she was an historian of the Jedi, search for sith knowledge in Telos, Korriban and so on), it is pretty obvious that she is the most knowledgeable of the two fighters.
Nonetheless, the real question here is : how much can this knowledge be use in a fight ? Because lots of the knowledge that both sith and jedi gathered are non-combat-applicable. For example all the rituals from the sith cannot be use in the core of a fight.
This is further emphatize by the fact that in much of his fight, despite his insane knowledge (that we can both agree is greater than Traya's one) Sidious mainly rely on TK, TP, FL, lightsaber strikes. If someone like Sheev Palpatine with such knowledge didn't use other technics (even against difficult ennemy such as Luke in DE) it is more than plausible that it is because most of this knowledge isn't combat-applicable.

So clearly if you cannot provide me some precise Force power that Traya known and that can help her defeat the Sword of the Jedi, your point is just moot and useless here.
~Lightsaber skills~

You claim that Traya have a great skill in lightsaber, base on this quotes:
The first one is something pretty vague that lots of jedi and sith who aren't insanely good duelist have, so clearly this isn't something specialy interresting.
The second one isn't better for Traya. Indeed, we have two problems here.
First of all the theory supported by the quote is clearly dismissed by the fact that Traya was ejected out of the Triumvirat not because of a lightsaber fight that she lost but because she was ragdoll by the combine might of Nilhius and Sion. By following this logic, there is no reason for her not to defeat some other sith better than her in sheer skill but with less force power.
Secondly even if I agree on the fact that she is the best lightsaber fighter of the sith, this only include the sith that survive after the civil war. We have no idea of the skills level of this particular era. This is absolutely not relevant for this fight. Well, this is just an insane stupidity...
Lets reasoning by the absurd and assuming that she can predict fight minutes before things happend. Logically when she have faced the Exile she could have predict what happend before the end of the fight (her defeat). And knowing that she is more powerful than the Exile she should have just find the good way to win the fight. But factually she loose.
So clearly she cannot predict fight minutes before.
~Unable to use all of this knowledge~

On the top of all of what I've explain just above, there is still a huge problem for Traya.
Two things here, you never prooved that Meetra was more powerful than Jaina (and honestly, knowing that she is weaker than Traya I have more than insane doubt that she is) and mostly, you missed my point. Here it is:despite all of her knowledge, despite her so called mastery of the lightsaber, despite her "great" knowledge of the unarmed fight she lost agaisnt an opponent weaker than her!
This is the perfect proof that she isn't at all a great fighter and that maybe she have all of this knowledge but this is useless in a fight.

Yes it is unclear but it would have been more logic to write: " Although Traya was more powerful thanks to the DS nexus, the Exile managed to defeat her in combat." But even though this didn't take into account the countless ennemies that the Exile have killed on this nexus in order to face Traya. In addition to her being less powerful she was also tired by all of this fight. And despite all of this she win... Traya is insanely bad as a fighter.

~The combat equal of anyone...~

First, here, I must concede here that yes, I have made a mistake here by thinking that Luke was still in exile when the quote happend.

Nonetheless this quote still exist.

And we can further reinforce this quote by other which will add more value to this quote and prove that she is the top dog of the jedi order:Lets analyse this quotes.

1°) BEST JEDI KNIGHT

The first two quotes shown that Jaina is the best jedi knight of this era. Indeed, while the first quote from one of her sparing partner describe her as better than any jedi knight in combat, the second one explicitely put her as one of the best recently trained jedi knight. This directly include Jaden Korr, Leia Solo, Ben Skywalker and so on.

2°) SECOND BEST PILOT

The third quote state that Jaina is an insanely good pilot only bested by Luke himself. Now the question that you can ask is : "how your level as a pilot is relevant in a fight ?".
The difference between a good and a bad pilot is mostly based on two things: your reflexes and your anticipation. And this both things are also extremly present during a classical fight. With this link between piloting and fighting lets consider a force user. If this force user is more powerful than another he must have better reflexe and better anticipation. By following this logic, we have that Jaina Solo is the second best fighter of the order just after Luke.

Now, the point is: have we some other proofs that support this logic ? The answer is yes:

Anakin Skywalker was an insanely good pilot and was also the most gifted force user ever.
Luke Skywalker is the best pilot of this era and also the most powerful jedi.

This logic have been prooven right so we can apply it.

3°) DARTH CAEDUS QUOTES

The last three quotes refer directly to the parity between Jaina and Jacen aka Caedus. Thanks to this quotes, we know that :

Caedus is too powerful to be taken down by anyone else than Luke himself.
Jaina have the same potential than him but less training (this is before her Fett training)
Jaina is his equal as a fighter


In addition, we have also this quote from Jaina herself:This clearly illustrate the fact that Jaina isn't as powerful as Caedus in force strength. Nonetheless, even with all of this said, that was her who have been choosen by the council to hunt down Darth Caedus.
Knowing that the Jedi Council won't send Jaina to her death, the most logical deduction is that Jaina have been choosen to kill Jacen because she is the one with the more chance not to fail (obviously we exclude Luke becaus this latter fear to fall to the DS).
Obviously, one of the reason explaining this choice is the fact that she is her twin sister so should have a good knowledge of her brother. However, she also stated that she have no idea of: what Lumyia teached him and what he learned during his five years journey.
In addition, it is pretty obvious that the knowledge that she have on her brother is match by the knowledge that Jacen have of her...
Taking all of this into account, we now can see that the fact that she is her twin
isn't such a major advantage if she isn't at the very least in the same league of the other top dog of the order such as Kyp, Kyle and Saba. And all of this happened more than two years before her own prime (in FotJ).

CONCLUSION

As I have shown in this part, Jaina have more than enough things for her to be stated as one of the top dog of the NJO. The "combat equal" quote strengthen this theory and clearly put Jaina as the second of none into the Jedi order bar GM Luke.