SS - Darth Traya (MasterCilghal) vs Jaina Solo (Xolthol)

xolthol wrote:@MasterCilghal : Solid post like each time. I will try to produce my answer asap but I'm (once again) pretty busy IRL so didn't know when I could do this. 
Just a question: Can we agree on a (finite) number of post before going into the voting phase ? Personnaly I will be ok for 2 posts for each after my response to yours: 1 last countering/argumenting 1 conclusive one.

xolthol wrote:@MasterCilghal : I fail to open the link with WriteUrl. Can you verify if its works with you ?

xolthol wrote:ERROR OF MANIPULATION

The quote may exist, but I’ve already debunked it (and you’ve provided no rebuttal) so i guess my points about it being a simple hyperbole or, more generally, figure of speech still stand. The best use you can have for this quote is that of a very generic accolade, that even admittedly unimpressive characters like Cilghal have

First of all, the former quote is from Zekk’s  point of view, which makes it questionable to begin with

and he only says i “doubt”, not something like “I am certain”.

Furthermore, Zekk has likely rarely met and sparred with Korr, as the latter is a field agent, often alone on various missions, which can be seen from his appearances in the FOTJ novels

Being a good pilot also involves other elements, such as control over the ship or the ability to execute certain maneuvers. Being a better pilot doesn’t just involve being a better force user

 Mara admits on 2 occasions Jacen is above her in power by a significant degree

Or what about Saesee Tiin? His skills as a pilot are noted to be “unrivaled” (so no one comes even close) :

While flying at lightspeed, Tiin had no need of a nav computer. He increased the Sharp Spiral's performance by taking hyperspace shortcuts and flying dangerously close to mass shadows.
The New Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels

ultimately, it’s clear your logic is fallacious in its foundation as it is contradicted by various examples in the lore

Even after her training under the mandalorian she admitted her solid  inferiority to him

But the main point is: Jaina is not chosen because of her power in fact she straight-up admits she’s not the equal of the masters.

Perhaps they feared Luke Skywalker just that much. And that was a mistake. Luke Skywalker was not the Sword of the Jedi. Jaina was, and now the Sith had trapped themselves inside a locked Temple with her.

FotJ: Apocalypse

On that day in Nar Shaddaa, she showed me blade work that surpassed my own; she had continued to grow and study and progress in Vaapad as well as the Force

Mace Windu

 she can take him down because of specific advantages she has that anyone else doesn’t, namely the fact that she is his sister: 

• she knows Jacen but he knows her to (reciprocity of knowledge)
  
• she agrees on the fact that she didn't know the full extend of Jacen power, including his training under Lumyia and his five years journey 
  

Invicible wrote:

"So this was a test," Jaina said

Invincible wrote:

"Your reservations about killing Caedus-"
Have already been discussed at length in your absence," Kenth assured her

Invincible wrote:

Jaina's relief did not blind her to the implications of what Saba had just said. "Were right?" she asked. "The Masters have already been discussing this option?"
"Of course," said Kyp. "We're Jedi Masters. Anticipate is what we do."

the masters were initially hesitant, and labeled her as a mere jedi Knight, but were later convinced by Jaina’s speech about the aforementioned advantages she had over her brother, and Han Solo bringing up the “sword of the Jedi” thing

• she is the most skilled jedi knight with a lightsaber (so above Jaden)
  
• she is combatively on parr with anyone in the jedi order (this include Jaden)
  
• she is clearly in the top tier of her era, certainly only surpass by her Uncle
  

Furthermore, in the quote I presented earlier Jaina concedes she is inferior to the masters and some Jedi Knights, a sentiment no one present came out and disproved but that Jaina acknowledged as fact after Corran labeled her as a Jedi Knight, 

Jaina might have been referring to Korr as well, considering that he is one of the most impressive knights of the era:

However, it is irrelevant to this debate as there is no indication Jaina is better than him in every any way (in fact all indications are here to the contrary).

I wanted to point out that Jaina has already conceded inferiority to the Jedi council (see the quote and argument above) and as such this analysis starts with a weak foundation, as it is not corroborated by the accolades presented to us.

 there is a fundamental problem in the former part: the fact that he blocked Katarn’s attack easily was not because the attack was easy to counter in itself , but rather because he knew that lightsaber move so well he could have performed it at any moment with ease. The emphasis is on the lightsaber move, not Katarn’s attack.

This doesn’t show he wasn’t having difficulty. The first passage merely shows Caedus avoiding Katarn’s attack (which I wouldn’t call not caring) while the second depicts him simply blocking Katarn’s lightsaber. Sure, Caedus was having the upper hand in the duel, but it’s not like Caedus was absolutely dominating

This is made clear in the text immediately after the passages you presented: 

Considering the fight is described as “even” I would hardly say Caedus was having no difficulty. 

Furthermore, both the complete Star Wars encyclopedia and the novel itself do make clear that Caedus was taxed by the duel:

1. Being taxed by a fight is compatible with dominating a fight. A good comparison was Usain Bolt running a 100m sprint. In most of the case he have dominated his adversaries but I higly doubt that this run didn't taxed him. 
   
2. The SW Encyclopedia didn't say that both are taxed at the same extend, so this isn't so relevant.
   
3. In addition the Novel made clear that he haven't fully recover from his previous duel with Luke, so this can explain why he was "taxed" by the fight
   

It’s made clear in the text that Caedus was starting to lose his concentration and most of his strength, and this was right after he was able to remove Katarn from the fight

At the end of the day, In stark contrast to what you are asserting, I believe Katarn was able to put up a fairly good fight against Caedus

As you can see, she has to put all of her effort against a distracted Caedus who menages to consistently blast her despite his injuries

Invincible wrote:Jaina launched herself into a Force flip, tumbling over the conveyor belt head-down so that she could strike before Caedus had time to unclip and ignite his lightsaber.

Caedus didn't even try. He simply glanced toward the open mouth of the fusion incinerator. In the next instant Jaina felt herself rushing toward its searing heat, and it took all her Force strength to pull herself aside the half meter that saved her life

 to the point where he might be able to kill her

Considering Caedus ended the fight with Katarn through a clever trick (ramming him with a speeder while pretending to employ a direct telekinetic attack) rather than outfighting him the duration of the fight seems hardly a good comparison

By contrast, as I’ve already proved, he could consistently blast away Jaina with little difficulty

Invincible wrote:The invisible fist of a Force blast slammed Jaina in the chest and sent her flying back, her breath groaning from her lungs and her lightsaber hissing free of Caedus's stomach.

Invincible wrote:Instead, he deactivated his blade.

"Jaina, listen to me." There was a throaty, gurgling quality to Caedus's voice, and it seemed obvious that the only thing keeping him on his feet was Force energy-a lot of it. "You need to get out of my way. I'm trying to save Tenel Ka and Allana."

"Sure you are," Jaina scoffed. As she spoke, she extended her Force awareness in all directions, trying to figure out why Caedus was stalling when his body was running out of time. "Just like you saved Isolder."

"Isolder would have made the same choice. In fact, he did." Caedus clipped his lightsaber to his belt, a trust-building gesture that might have had some meaning, had he not been a lying Sith murderer. "Jaina, we don't have time for this."

"So die already."
Jaina launched herself into a Force flip, tumbling over the conveyor belt head-down so that she could strike before Caedus had time to unclip and ignite his lightsaber.

Caedus didn't even try. He simply glanced toward the open mouth of the fusion incinerator. In the next instant Jaina felt herself rushing toward its searing heat, and it took all her Force strength to pull herself aside the half meter that saved her life

Caedus specifically notes that those jedi “either individually or collectively, were no match” for him and acknowledges Katarn as the only credible threat, which is corroborated by the description of the duel, which depicts Caedus absolutely dominating the other jedi and Katarn having to break off the attack to assist them

Fury wrote:swung at the Master's leg, but Kolir's blade intercepted his before it bit into flesh. His strength batted her weapon away, but she had deflected his blow and spared Katarn an amputation

1. Kyle wasn't aware of this strike of Caedus and the jedi knight save Katarn leg. Clearly here, this would be the proof that they are a good help. Whitout them, Katarn will have loose the fight here.
   
2. Kyle was aware of this attack but also know that the jedi knight will protect him. Here,thanks to the jedi knight, he can use at his advantage the time that Caedus will spend attacking him to do something else. Once again, the help of the knight is far from non-valuable, it allow him to do something else.
   

While I agree the injuries were a factor in the fight, it’s not nearly as important as you make it to be because Caedus noted earlier he was “quickly recovering”. So the relevance of these injuries is definitely minor and only came into play after Katarn was defeated, which further proves my point about him being taxed by the duel

• You see that Caedus was "quickly recovering" and also that he "wasn't yet recovered from his duel with Luke".You are deducing that the injuries are minors
  
• I see the seems thing but I deduce that Caedus wasn't as bad as after his duel with Luke but is still in a bad shape, up to the point that this made him loose his strenght after a really short fight that he fully dominate.
  

I fail to see the relevance of this “advantage” . Caedus never appears to be distracted from the fight at any moment, even if he’s keeping awareness on the vehicles. 

I also think you’re using a double standard here, by taking this into account and not his distraction in the fight with Jaina, that being him wanting to alert Tenel aka of the nano-virus, which I see as a far more substantial advantage

• Killing Jaina 
  
• Speaking with her to convince her
  

In fact the text notes that Caedus was putting a great deal of force energy into sustaining himself, rather than the opposite [...] From this description we can see the injuries were an impairment to him rather than a way to fuel his power

Invincible wrote:He was in obvious pain-and he was feeding on it

Jaina was hurt as well, you’ve yet to prove those injuries were anywhere near Caedus’ own

 And regardless:

however this was only a disadvantage for a small part of the fight

Only individuals with great skill and power in the force can learn the technique 

If they can teach the technique i would assume they can also use it themselves…

Bastila was not necessarily referring to jedi masters that were alive

i do think at least Vrook was among those “most powerful jedi masters” she mentioned, as he was one of the masters of the council that she met when she brought Revan to the Jedi

while it is true the masters are initially taken by surprise, given that Traya is able to pin Vrook I would hardly say she’s incapable “ragdolling” them. 

For further explanation see my opener in this very thread. I’ve already addressed this

I don’t understand your last point. The fact that they activated their lightsabers means they were combat-ready, making Traya’s ability to instantly drain them all the more impressive. 

This form is considered the pinnacle of Force Mastery. Now watch carefully. This subtle technique enhances the duration of many Force powers at your disposal However, the focus required for this form can drain your energy quickly and leave you vulnerable to Force attack

 Kreia will certainly use it against Jaina

Well it’s comparable with the accolades you presented for Jaina.

We’re discussing lightsaber skill, not force power. Sure, Nihilus is more powerful than her, but nothing suggests either him or Sion, the former in particular , is superior to her in lightsaber skill

Kreia literally didn’t have a hand, which would have undoubtedly decreased her effectiveness in combat. [...] And lastly, a weaker character defeating a stronger one is not unheard of in SW, see Anakin vs Obi wan, Maul vs Kenobi… in both cases a certain character should have realistically won but the other “menages to” defeat him via several factor, which in this case are unknown given that it’s a video game fight, but the description of the complete encyclopedia points to that being the case

MP’s points about Traya’s knowledge of Echani combat techniques still stand, as you haven’t provided a valid counter

FotJ: OMEN wrote:Both Skywalkers watched the encounter again. Ben felt a shiver chase up and down his spine.
Flow-walking. This was more than Force anticipation.
The fight continued. Ben realized that Cilghal was right. At every turn, Jysella predicted exactly where Barv would be. Sometimes she seemed to be two steps ahead. Ben had never seen that kind of Force anticipation, not even from his father.

it Seems better than anything Jaina has, but feel free to prove otherwise

• use the two wins that you give me (putting Jaina equal or above FotJ!GM Luke)
  
• use the fact that she is (at least) the fighting equal of Saba, someone who can defeat Kenth Hammer (while trying not to kill him) who himself was able to TK dominate Kyp Durron (indeed, before his prime but after the Dovin Basal feat)
  
• use the fact that after two days of perpetual fight, whithout rest and lots of injuries (a broken arm, some brokens ribs and lots of slam against the ground and the walls) she was able to force push 4 siths sabers simultaneously (something that surprise even Luke) and after this to stop her being TK showed by freaking Abeloth.
  
• use the scaling that put her above Vestara Khai (up to the point that the latter didn't think that she could defeat her with the help of 12 mandos), who is also better than Gavar Khai who is the top dog (just after High Lord Taalon) of a fleet of war of 11 vessels full of Sith
  

But Luke had fought the Lost Tribe before, and he knew their style

But even Luke Skywalker would be foolish not to completely focus on a battle against six Sith

If the Exile could defeat Kreia, Revan would have an easier time of it. 

Chris Avellone, lead writer of Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords

Revan could beat Kreia, no doubt about it - the student far surpassed the master.

Chris Avellone, lead writer of Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords

Revan's will allows him to feed on - and not be consumed by - the power of the dark side
Source: Chronicles of the Old Republic

VS

Sensing his last location, she travels to Malachor V, but is unable to shield her emotions, and is completely consumed by the dark side of the Force
Source: Chronicles of the Old Republic

• Jaina is in the top tier of the hierachy of the NJO era
  
• The Korr Scaling chain is valid and above anything that Traya have
  
• Jaina scaling chain put her above Traya
  
• Traya haven't any noticeable feat for her
  
• Traya haven't show that she is able to use appropiately a weaker ennemy
  
• Traya haven't prooved that she can use her drain on more powerful enney
  

xolthol wrote:@MasterCilghal : do you want to take also Bart as a judge ? (he said that he can judge come SS if asked)

• Dantooine feat: this feat remains Kreia’s best achievement. She was able to humble three jedi masters, all noted as the best of the era and likely above star forge empowered Bastila Shan (herself able to give Revan a fight). Xolthol’s attempts at debunking it have rather unsuccessful, as they are based on dubious evidence, such as Kreia using Dun moch (which would hardly be effective against jedi masters of that caliber), the “you were afraid” quote, which was actually directed towards the exile, the description of the force forms, an argument which I still haven’t been able to understand, and the Jedi master’s apparent injuries, despite them being ready ready to fight immediately afterwards. Ultimately, this feat eclipses anything Jaina has, whose own hype is based more on reputation than anything else.
  
• While Xolthol has been able to partially counter this, I still think Kreia’s admittedly superior knowledge will give her a further advantage. Jaina has never proven she can deal with an opponent who employs force drain (which is just of many combat-applicable powers Traya has in her arsenal) especially with the level of control and refinement of Traya. Furthermore, we have seen drain used against a more powerful opponent, see the Krayt and Luke vs Abeloth fight in Apocalypse, so it is definitely a factor here. 
  
• Kreia’s vast superiority to Visas Marr (an argument which Xolthol did not address), an opponent with impressive showings and great hype, really shows the depth of her power. I really don’t see Jaina replicating it considering how poorly she performed against Caedus (who has his own low showings). 
  
• Traya’s lightsaber skill, while not extremely impressive, is still more than enough to present a challenge. She scales above Sion, Visas and several skilled sith in the triumvirate, all of who, have been able to give the exile herself a fight. Xolthol’s use of her final duel is misleading as not only was Kreia noted as stronger (either just on the nexus or in general), making the legitimacy of Meetra’s victory suspect (e.i. she won by luck, similarly to Kenobi against Maul in tpm) but was also missing a hand, which would have unquestionably diminished her effectiveness as a duelist. 
  
  
  

• Xolthol’s case was built on Jaina’s accolades, many of which, however, are vague and not-particularly-impressive: the statement about Jaina being “the equal of anyone in the order”  fails on various levels: taken literally, it would be a contradiction, otherwise it would only refer to sparring sessions. But most importantly, it would imply Jaina is the equal of Luke, which is objectively not true, as proven by statements that none other than Xolthol has brought up. The quotes about Jaina being one of the best jedi knights, which definitely are not bad, are still not very relevant to the debate, as there’s no way to prove how close or far she is from the other knights who are included in the statement. Furthermore Jaina conceding inferiority to all members of the council and some Jedi Knights does not help his case either. Lastly we have Jaina being chosen to take down Caedus, which Xolthol has been unable to prove as a choice based on power and skill but rather for the specific advantages she enjoyed over her brother. Same with the pilot argument. As we have seen with other characters, being the best pilot does not necessarily equate to being the most powerful force user around. (Otherwise we would have Tiin>Kenobi). 
  
• Lastly and finally we have Jaina’s supposed superiority to Kyle Katarn, which i don’t think is the case either. Katarn, while helped by jedi that Caedus specifically noted as not being in any fashion a threat to him, was able to give the Sith Lord a fairly good fight (hence Caedus being taxed later, which I’ve yet to see a fair argument for why it doesn’t translate into having difficulty) against a Caedus who was quickly recovering from previous injuries. Jaina by contrast, was being tossed around by a severely injured Caedus. 
  
  
  

• I've shown that the Dantoine Feat is overrated by a pretty huge margin. Indeed, we haven't anything substential to prove the power of the three jedi masters: they didn't have non-generic accolades, they didn't have any feat for them (certainly not the reconstruction of the Dantoine Jedi Enclave), they cannot be scale from anyone (particularly the SF!Bastila scaling chain failed). In addition to this, the fight between Darth Traya and the three jedi masters isn't without a huge context: the Lady of the sith take blast them because they weren't aware of them, then she made a powerful use of Dun Moch and lastly one of the very technic that the masters use made them more vulnerable to force attack (like Force Drain). Because of all of this context we can clearly see that this isn't something really impressive
  
• My opponent failled to proove that Darth Traya was a good duelist by any means. We didn't have any feat for Kreia as a duelist and the poor accolade that can made her at the pinnacle of the sith of this era have been proven false so cannot be use. 
  
• Darth Traya, despite a huge knowledge (but we didn't know up to which point this is a combattive applicable knowledge), despite being more powerful than the jedi Exile (who was tired after fighting through army of siths), was defeated by the latter. This is clearly a really low-showing for Kreia and a clear proof that she didn't necessarly know how to use efficiently all the knowledge that she had gathered.
  
• We didn't have any proof that Traya will be able to use her drain against a more powerful opponent or that this could be a one-shot option for her.
  

• I've demonstrated that Jaina is the equal of anyone in the Jedi order (as a fighter) bar her uncle Luke Skywalker (that I thought was in exile at this time). My opponent had prooven for me that this quote also include Grand Master Luke Skywalker (thanks to him). In addition, various quotes before FotJ  and in FotJ (one of the best jedi knight, the pilote quote, being the best jedi knights as a duelist) made this clear enough: Jaina is at the top of the commbat hierarchy of the NJO.
  
• This was further substantiate with the fact that Jaina was sent to kill her brother (Darth Caedus), and  by the comparison between her fight and the fight of Kyle Katarn. In this two instances, I've shown that both jedi have advantages over Caedus but that the sword of the jedi have more drawbacks than master katarn (IE: being alone, begining the fight with a huge trauma, facing an ennemy heavily feeding on his pain,...). Despite this, Jaina put clearly a better fight than Kyle.
  
• In addition, I've scaled Jaina above destroying with telekinesis a whole building (Solo >> Korr >~ Soldier + Runner > 2x Runner >>>> destroying a building with TK) something way better than any feat or scaling provided for Traya.
  
• Last but not least, I have shown that the parity of Jaina with Luke while facing siths on a powerful DS nexus puts her leagues above Traya by a direct scaling chain.