Re: Exar Kun Supreme Respect Thread (NEW UPDATE 8/28/2022)

[AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four]

That's what google translate says, Decaf and I have contacted actual French-speaking people to clarify:



Fair enough on the respective part though.

[DarthAnt66Moderator]

No, four sites (Google Translate, Yandex Translate, French Wiktionary, and Translate.com) repeat what I said. I'm more inclined to go with them than some random guy who says "or some shit like that" after looking at it.

[AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four]

Online translation sites are notoriously bad at translating on anything more than a few words, and his only point about 'some shit' is the part referring to amicable, which he clarifies has a poor syntax involved. He's not unclear about anything else.

[DarthAnt66Moderator]

Yes, and those specific "few words" are what I was looking at, and they effectively mean "to be of the same size; to be equal talent, in fortune, in glory, etc."  

Feel free to consult a French linguist, but otherwise I don't think there's any basis to prioritize random Discorder over proper French websites assessing these things. 

E.g. https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/ne_pas_jouer_dans_la_m%C3%AAme_cour

[AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four]

Until a proper French-speaking person says otherwise, I am keeping it as has been said. But to sate your desire for flarification Decaf has already contacted others to find clarification on the matter.

[Decaf_Beverages]

Lls jouent dans la meme cour que Vador et Palpatine et sont plutot moins aimables qu’eux.

Lls jouent dans = They play in 
La meme cour = the same court
Que Vador et Palpatine = as Vader and Palpatine
et sont plutot moins aimables qu’eu = and are rather less friendly than them. 

I recommend updating your translation. The translation "they play in the same court" is, apparently, a common French phrase to roughly mean to "to be of the same size; to be equal talent, in fortune, in glory, etc." There's not really a basis to say it's referencing uniquely referencing power when there's obviously many other parallels you can draw between them all. And it's rather unlikely it's about power unless it's insinuating Kun, Droma, Palpatine, and Vader are all of comparable strength (???). Notice it never says "respectively" and, if you were to add that in, that would put Kun with Vader and Droma with Palpatine as it writes Kun and Droma but then Vader and Palpatine.

Cool find, though.

I do have the benefit of living in Canada and having access to many people who's first language is french. This is the translation I am getting from one of them on discord, and two more in real life are confirming it for me. 



Direct translations between french and english don't really work all that easily, and every french speaker I have talked to have confirmed it is referring to strength given that context. I think we will need a more direct translation from multiple sources. My french is good enough to loosely translate and read these works, but not give insight on how to directly translate the meaning behind them. However I will note that even your website's (https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/ne_pas_jouer_dans_la_m%C3%AAme_cour) example given gives us two synonyms, one of which is "ne pas boxer dans la meme categorie" which means roughly "boxing in the same weight class" and one which roughly means "playing in the same category"

Furthermore, even in that website's context we get the phrase 

Même dans l'éducation cette hiérarchie est présente : Docteur et Professeur ne jouent pas dans la même cour et la hiérarchie même plus souple doit être respectée. 

Which implies that Doctors and Professors do not play in the same court, and that such a hierarchy should be respected. So clearly even given the most literal interpretation physically possible it can refer to some kind of gap in knowledge or ability

Furthermore if your going to post the bit about "Ne pas être de la même envergure ; être inégal en talent, en fortune, en gloire, etc." at least post the part that follows it up "Se dit particulièrement pour montrer la supériorité dans un domaine quelconque ou écraser autrui de son mépris" meaning Especially said to show superiority in any field or to crush others with their contemp

[Decaf_Beverages]

Until a proper French-speaking person says otherwise, I am keeping it as has been said. But to sate your desire for flarification Decaf has already contacted others to find clarification on the matter.

Read my above post

[AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four]

Very well put Decaf.

Also, thanks to everybody for 4,000 views. I hope the thread has provided you all with new information of a sort. If anyone has any questions please comment them.

[KingofBladesLevel Three]

This is what the quote says according to someone who reads french.

[Latham2000Level Three]

Now we are consulting the French people to clarify quotes 

[Decaf_Beverages]

This is what the quote says according to someone who reads french.

I'd like to see how that translation is being gotten, like a breakdown. It outright says they are less amicable. That part alone is fairly cut and dry, the part that I personally wasnt able to translate is the "in the same court" part which Ant kindly provided a source for that would indicate the meaning of the term"in the same court" would exclusively refer to some kind of measurement of ability, providing numerous examples

[S_W_LeGenD]

The entire French-related exchange is hilarious. LMAO.

I need to arrange popcorn...

[The Fallen WarriorLevel Four]

@KingofBlades Kun's lightsaber is revealed to be a dark side nexus in the KotOR comics.

I think it was probably him that made it a nexus to begin with, it wasn't an artifact, it was something he created of his own ability

 
I have no stake but here are the scans I was able to find:

[AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four]

I've heavily updated/added new sources to each section of the thread. Please feel free to read through again.

[S_W_LeGenD]

A quote exists stating that Darth Malak had been provided far greater powers than even Freedon Nadd or Exar Kun:



Now, whilst the context and interpretations of the quote can be debated. This is no longer needed as a more up-to-date source has confirmed that the interpretation of this quote so as to mean Darth Malak is far more powerful than Exar Kun cannot be accurate:

Kun, Exar. Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the Rise of the Empire.

This quote is from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia which is an in-universe omniscient source as stated within the text itself:



This means that the quote must include the Sith Emperor as of 3,996BBY. However, by 3960BBY the Sith Emperor easily defeats the combined power of Revan and Malak:

Over 300 years ago, the great Jedi heroes Revan and Malak stumbled upon long-hidden Sith Empire's capital of Dromund Kaas, and its ruler - a mysterious, almost godlike avatar of the dark side. They argued briefly over whether to alert the Republic and Jedi Council, but Revan was already too consumed by arrogance and anger to consider the possibility of defeat. By the time Revan and Malak approached the Emperor in his throne room, they were already at the precipice of the dark side. It took only a fraction of the Emperor's loathsome power to complete their fall. The Jedi succumbed utterly to the Sith leader's domination and returned to the Republic to spark a new conflict: the Jedi Civil War.

The legendary Jedi Revan and Malak confront the Sith Emperor in his throne room on Dromund Kaas. In mere moments, the Jedi lay defeated and consumed by the dark side of the Force

Realizing this Empire was the true threat to the Republic, Revan and Malak faced the Sith Emperor himself, intending to cut off the serpent's head--but the Emperor was too powerful. Overwhelmed by the Emperor's dark presence, they pledged themselves to his service.

Furthermore, Revan states that he doubts he could defeat the Emperor he faced with Malak despite his power growth since then, further stating that the Emperor at that point wielded a kind of power that not even Darth Malak amplified by the Star Forge had:

As they drew closer to the throne room, Revan’s thoughts drifted back to his last confrontation with the Emperor. In all his battles, he had never faced an enemy with that kind of power. The dark side had radiated from him in palpable waves, his physical shell barely able to contain the crackling energy.

In their last meeting he had overwhelmed Revan completely; it wasn’t even fair to call it a battle. Revan had grown since then. He was far more powerful now, but was he a match for the Emperor?

Alone, probably not.

What this means is that the Emperor as of 3960BBY required only a 'fraction' of his power to dominate Revan and Malak combined, and a Revan who at this point was much more powerful than Star Forge Malak still didn't think he could defeat the Emperor he'd faced in 3960BBY.

The question then becomes whether or not Vitiate surpassed Exar Kun in the 36 years after Kun's defeat. Well between 3960BBY and 3950BBY, there's no major growth in power on the Sith Emperor's part. The chronological gap between Exar Kun at his height and the Sith Emperor is only 26 years longer than that.

This of course is taking for granted the idea that Kun died in 3996BBY, however other sources state that the war which started in 3996BBY went on for 'several years' before Kun and Ulic reappeared:



Meaning that Kun actually died in 3992BBY, shortening the gap even further. This means that if the Malak quote is to be interpreted in a way that suggests he was far more powerful than Exar Kun, then the Sith Emperor in the space of 32 years had to have grown so much more powerful that he possesses 'a kind of power' beyond SF Malak who was supposedly far more powerful than Exar Kun who was more powerful than the Sith Emperor. Yet in the space of 10 years neither Revan nor anyone else notes any kind of growth on that scale for the Emperor. Simply put it isn't true.

The reconciliation to this issue is that assumptions made regarding the context of the quote are wrong. The 'Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Freedon Nadd or Exar Kun or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?' line can be interpreted in more ways than one and this is made clear by the article's author Cory J. Herndon:



It is the Star Forge's own power itself that Herndon notes makes Darth Malak more powerful a Sith than Nadd or Kun, not merely in terms of the Force but in its ability to build a nigh endless armada of ships. Which goes hand-in-hand with the fact that Malak is being 'provided' powers by something else.

You may now note that his mask hiding cybernetic enhancements is incapable of producing said ships thus casting doubt on Herndon's claim. Firstly, it is important to note that the distinction of being 'too simple', essentially insufficient, renders that piece of context irrelevant anyway. The article is not aware of the source of this power; and given literally nothing is like the Star Forge in either scope and capability,  no matter what suggestions are presented they are wrong, this is not a limiting factor on the interpretations that may be made from it. It is a blind shot in the dark based on one of Darth Malak's most notable features. Secondly, Malak's enhancements are borne of Star Forge technology. Per Revan himself, even the smallest fragments can self-replicate until they become galaxies:


(Skip to 3:36)

Therefore the article's original suggestion is far from a basis for dismissal nor should it be taken as a limiting factor at all.

Reading the full context of the quote enlightens this further:

An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?

Note that Darth Malak's power is already stated, but the latter half of the quote is stated as being separate to this. This is important when noting 'did it provide him with'. The 'far greater powers' come from something else, besides Darth Malak himself. And Cory Herndon has confirmed that the Star Forge itself is what makes Darth Malak more powerful than the proceeding Sith, due to its capability to produce an armada of ships as well as its connection to the dark side of the Force.

As one of the foremost fans of the ancient characters of Star Wars, your works in particular, and the fact that I would never shy away from promoting Exar Kun in any forum; I have to CAUTION you that you cannot hype him at the expense of Tenebrae (The Sith Emperor) in your works and otherwise. I have also adopted in-universe conceit for my contention below to make it fun, and give it much needed CONTEXT.


The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia does not cover Tenebrae (The Sith Emperor) and his Sith Empire, FULL STOP. This was an entire sector of the galaxy that remained concealed for a long time and eventually became the stuff of myths and legends by the time of Palpatine:



Image taken from the (Star Wars: Force and Destiny: The Core Rulebook).

In regards to the Jedi Civil War:



Image taken from the (Star Wars: Force and Destiny: The Core Rulebook).

You see that the Unknown Regions are merely hinted...

Therefore, it is not surprising that a committee of historians and scholars responsible for The Complete Stars Wars Encyclopedia project in the far future, completely overlooked records pertaining to the exploits of Tenebrae (The Sith Emperor) and his Sith Empire. One possible explanation is that the records pertaining to the exploits of Tenebrae (The Sith Emperor) and his followers did not last long or were intentionally destroyed at some point and for good reason:

No Sith has generated as much curiosity, frustration, and fear among the Jedi as the Empire's dread ruler.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

 
Not only that but Tenebrae had alienated the Sith as well when he ditched them for a new civilization and philosophy, and the Sith would want his records to be eradicated as well. The prospects of reemergence of a being on the lines of Tenebrae (The Sith Emperor) absolutely SPOOKED the Sith given their experiences under his hand through the centuries. Many of his followers were strong enough to become rulers of the galaxy by themselves otherwise.

This is further apparent from that fact that both Darth Plagueis and Palpatine had LIMITED knowledge of Tenebrae and his accomplishments. The likes of Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun, Darth Malak and Darth Revan were much better known in comparison. When Palpatine came to know about Darth Malgus at some point, he realized that the ancient Sith Lord's battlefield fields were never duplicated, and through his teachings, Palpatine was able to find a way a conjure a Force Storm (Wormhole) - one of the most devastating expressions of power ever. And even then Palpatine noted that Darth Malgus was 'one of the' greatest warriors of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire which is correct by the way.

Following is made known about Ziost during the era of Palpatine:

Ziost has been the capital of the Sith Empire under both King Adas and Jedi Exile Ajunta Pall, as well as their successors. As with most planets of Sith Space, war and the dark side stripped life from the planet until it became a barren ball of lifeless rock.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Core Rulebook)

Never mind the fact it was Tenebrae (Vitiate) who did that to Ziost (singlehandedly)... but this should not be mentioned...

Tenebrae is a HORROR STORY that should not be told...

The BioWare's overarching Star Wars: The Old Republic project and affiliated content including the Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia offer up-to-date coverage of everything ancient including Exar Kun. And it is repeatedly and abundantly made clear from different angles and statements that Tenebrae (The Sith Emperor) had no peer among the co-existing Sith in the galaxy at any point in time during the course of his existence and before.

The sheer power Tenebrae had gained from his dreadful NATHEMA experiment transformed him into a being unique in the galaxy with the ability to extend his life for indefinite period (i.e. corporeal immortality) and continued to grow stronger throughout:

He executes the Sith Council and consumes the life force of thousands of Sith Lords in a terrifying ritual that extends his life and vastly increases his capacity as a practitioner of the Force.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

+

The Emperor was no longer a member of the Sith species; his power and immortality had transformed him into a being unique in the galaxy.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

+

Servants of the Hand share their Master's longevity, living untouched by age for centuries under his command. In return, the Emperor draws on his servant's strength in the Force and body to feed his ever-increasing power, leaving the servants withered and frail.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

No Sith could compete with THAT with trinkets and such. Over the course of centuries, many of the ancient Sith attempted to achieve 'corporeal immortality' though various approaches but none succeeded:



Darth Plagueis also attempted to achieve 'corporeal immortality' though the art of Midichlorian Manipulation (Bith Sciences) but Palpatine realized that this achievement will make his Master too strong and eliminated him beforehand.

Therefore, the prospects of a being on the lines of Tenebrae (The Sith Emperor) absolutely SPOOKED Palpatine as well, and he did not want this to happen in his time.

Please keep in mind the fact that Tenebrae is noted to have explored the most sinister and uncharted depths of the dark side and he recovered countless artifacts in the process many of which he stored in his personal space station orbiting above Dromund Kaas, the Dark Temple on Dromund Kaas, and the remainder in the Sanitarium on Nathema which he regarded as being the most dangerous and beyond the reach of Sith and Jedi respectively. The ones stored in the Emperor's Space Station also included the legendary Darkstaff which somehow ended up in the hands of Darth Rivan and its abilities are well-known (it could be used to conjure a Force Storm (Wormhole).

However, as you may know, all of those storage bases ended up being destroyed during the course of conflict at different points in time; one by the hand of Darth Malgus, the other by the hand of Tenebrae himself, and the last one by the hand of Valyin, and only a small number of those artifacts could be extracted/recovered prior to utter destruction of either storage bases.

Therefore, while Exar Kun's knowledge pool was VAST by any measure, Tenebrae was once again on another level in comparison. In either case, much of their respective secrets perished with each. Darth Plagueis also begrudging admitted as much.

I am rather running out of space for revamping my blogs on Comic Vine. This will take a while to complete, and Tenebrae's related content will be broken down to several components and parts in the process - there is no other way.

----

About the Darth Malak's part, I agree with it more or less.

I would like highlight this fact as well though:

"The Star Forge is more than just a space station. In some ways, it is like a living creature. It hungers. And it can feed on the dark side that is within all of us! Look around you, Revan. See the bodies? You should recognize them from the Academy. These are Jedi who fell when I attacked Dantooine. For all intents and purposes dead, except for one difference: I have not let them become one with the Force. Instead I have brought them here. The Star Forge corrupts what remains of their power and transfers the dark taint to me! You cannot beat me, Revan. Not here on the Star Forge. Not when I can draw upon the power of all these Jedi!" - Darth Malak (Star Forge)


Notice the bottom part? That was a significant reason as to why Darth Malak became so powerful on Star Forge. And if it weren't for timely intervention of the now redeemed Revan, Darth Malak would have continued to grow in power by the day. Bastila Shan pointed out as much.

----

Following part of your blog:

"Exar Kun is the most powerful dark-sider of the new order prepared by Naga Sadow and established by Freedon Nadd per historians of the New Republic which by the unbound nature of this quote, logically extends through Kun's Sith Empire and the resurrection of this empire by Revan and Malak, through to the Sith Triumvirate."

- and affiliated content is an interesting find though.

Exar Kun could be more powerful than the likes of Darth Malak and Darth Revan. I am not sure if the Sith Triumvirate is covered in this, and even if benefit of doubt is given in this case, there are still ways to argue for Darth Nihilus being an unconventional Force-user in large part.

Nevertheless, great effort and blog as a whole. Thank you for your service.

[AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four]

Your major contention here is problematic when taking into account that TCSWE is an omniscient in-universe source, that has also been fact-checked by Leland Chee for accuracy. SWTOR:E however is purely in-universe and doesn't benefit from being omniscient. This means that Tenebrae is taken into consideration in the TCSWE regardless of whether or not he was included. It's omniscient.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Your major contention here is problematic when taking into account that TCSWE is an omniscient in-universe source, that has also been fact-checked by Leland Chee for accuracy. SWTOR:E however is purely in-universe and doesn't benefit from being omniscient. This means that Tenebrae is taken into consideration in the TCSWE regardless of whether or not he was included. It's omniscient.

Dear Lady,

SWTOR-E [is] the DEFINITIVE guide:





All significant parties were involved in creating the aforementioned book.

DEFINITIVE = (of a conclusion or agreement) done or reached decisively and with authority.

Information in SWTOR-E will take precedence over information in older works of similar nature in relation to the timeline of events and characters discussed in it. This book also create room for POTENTIAL CRITIC of information about future developments in STAR WARS HISTORY because it contain information which is not REVISITED in any other book in adequate capacity (see one example below).

Consider a literature review that was published in 2008, and another literature review of same theme that was published in 2012; from which will you commence your work in relation? The latest publication, right?

There are three types of works in relation to Star Wars:-

1. In-universe = From the perspective of historians and scholars in Star Wars (e.g. TCSWE)

When evaluating this kind of literature, WE (the audience) can make do with the argument that the ARCHIVES are not complete and perfect, and therefore, historians and scholars were working with information they had at their disposal in later years. This is the route considered in the Star Wars: Force and Destiny: Core Rulebook in which HISTORY of STAR WARS is REVISITED up to the era of Palpatine but there is shift in his hype (His power may be unparalleled in the history of the Sith). This book BYPASS the contents of SWTOR-E to large extent with the 'contention' that the archives are not complete and perfect in the era of Palpatine and the term "unknown regions" is used vis-à-vis corruption of the duo of Darth Malak and Darth Revan when expanding upon the topic of the Jedi Civil War. This is a SMART approach to not discredit Darth Vitiate and at the same time commit to the seemingly customary practice to promote Palpatine as the big bad of the mythos. This book feign ignorance of the advancements and exploits of Darth Vitiate through the years in the recorded history. In other words, historians and scholars in the era of Palpatine were of the view that Palpatine may be the most powerful Sith based on the ARCHIVES they had at their disposal. In short, this book left Palpatine's hype OPEN TO INTERPRETATION for the audience.

The book also mentioned Ziost and the fact that it was turned into a barren wasteland by war and the dark side of the Force. However, Tenebrae was not hinted or mentioned in relation to this development because the ARCHIVES are not complete and perfect. The book BYPASSED Tenebrae's accomplishment in this case as well which is otherwise noted to be the most powerful display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force in Star Wars in the relevant codex entry of SWTOR. Bear in mind the fact that Ziost was a huge rocky planet with two moons of its own, and one of the heavily-populated and better-protected Imperial Worlds at the time.

The aforementioned CONTEXT can also be extended to the historians and scholars of TCSWE many years in the future. In this manner, TCSWE remains a valid source to consult but not exactly for the HYPE of Exar Kun and Palpatine respectively. The relevant statements can be still be used to hype each in any work but not at the expense of Tenebrae (sorry).

2. Out-of-universe = An author's take on developments in STAR WARS

The author explore and discuss developments in Star Wars through his own "conceptual lens."

3. In-universe = DEFINITIVE

Consensus-building among authors to make in-universe information ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

The authors do not issue a declaration that they are a part of the fictional universe (historians and scholars) but they issue a declaration that the information provided by them is DEFINITIVE for the fictional universe like in the case of SWTOR-E.



But we warned; to create a book that is a comprehensive and expansive authority on Star Wars: The Old Republic, this encyclopedia occasionally describes certain details and revelations that give away key dramatic moments. The overviews of the eight class stories (on pages 50-51, 92-93, 98-99, 136-137, 178-179, 184-185, 216-217, and 234-235) are particularly revealing, however the alternative would be to exclude them altogether - a sacrifice we did not want to make.

Whose declaration is that? OF THE AUTHORS themselves.

---

SWTOR project is so vast now that it gives the impression of being an ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE of Star Wars as of late (BioWare-verse). While SWTOR-E cover events up to a certain point in time, SWTOR have another method to provide updates (codex entries).

So when you are creating a blog which is also like a scholarly work, you need to be careful in how you construct your arguments or shape them. This is exactly what I am doing when I am revisiting my blogs in the present.

For instance, I have provided in-universe CONTEXT to information in THE MOST POWERFUL section in my blog (Valkorion Respect Thread) in which I have acknowledged a statement of Mr. Leland Chee of The Father being the most powerful Force-user (issued in 2013) but I also considered canonical information that The Father was in decline thousands of years before The Clone Wars (his powers were eroding over time), therefore, BioWare's promotion is not contradicted in this manner. This [is] the best CONTEXT at hand. There is a reason as to why SWTOR-E [was allowed to] promote Tenebrae as the most powerful Force-user by those who reviewed this book because position of Mr. Leland Chee is not contradicted in it. CONTEXT is the FUNDAMENTAL ASPECT to consider in evaluation, always.

Go through this blog (work-in-progress but with much content in it now): https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/devastation-of-ziost-updated-and-expanded-in-2020-/105050/

It is mind-numbing to comprehend what Tenebrae pulled off on Ziost while being a mere essence. Not even Abeloth have demonstrated comparable level of power in 'any' world I recall, not even on Coruscant where she was siphoning energy from the planet's inhabitants to fuel her power. Don't get me wrong; she is stupendously powerful but the Jedi and Sith could join hands to stop her and they succeeded in doing so without any deus-ex-machina involved in the process, they did not had to use the Dagger of Mortis either.

Luke Skywalker and Darth Krayt? Try fighting through millions of POSSESSED troops with all manner of heavy gear including massive Walkers and thousands of Force-users including many Jedi Masters; very likely to be overwhelmed in time. Now consider nigh-omnipotent beings of pure dark side energy arriving in the mix some of which would swallow you whole (the largest ones were about the size of super-tall buildings; KAIJU category). Even the smallest one was cutting through heavy structures of duracrete and durasteel as if they were tissue paper, and could not be taken down (attacked TWICE to no avail). Yeah, you better run, and fast, even if you are a Skywalker. Even the COALITION of the Republic and the Empire flopped under the circumstances. They brought everything ranging from HUGE starships to some of the most powerful Force-users in the galaxy, and also attempted other ways to get a FIX on Tenebrae's essence, to no avail.

In short, WE (the audience) are supposed to know better and connect the dots in more informed ways.

Exar Kun still have much going for him by virtue of how Luke Skywalker perceived him and fared against him; nothing to sneeze at here. Only fools would lowball Exar Kun in full view of this information at hand.

---

There is only one Star Wars character who is able to BEND even the STORY to her will.... Rey 

[SeturnaLevel One]

Good RT. We can see that you definitely took your time doing this, worth it.

[AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four]

Your major contention here is problematic when taking into account that TCSWE is an omniscient in-universe source, that has also been fact-checked by Leland Chee for accuracy. SWTOR:E however is purely in-universe and doesn't benefit from being omniscient. This means that Tenebrae is taken into consideration in the TCSWE regardless of whether or not he was included. It's omniscient.

Dear Lady,

SWTOR-E [is] the DEFINITIVE guide:





All significant parties were involved in creating the aforementioned book.

DEFINITIVE = (of a conclusion or agreement) done or reached decisively and with authority.

Information in SWTOR-E will take precedence over information in older works of similar nature in relation to the timeline of events and characters discussed in it. This book also create room for POTENTIAL CRITIC of information about future developments in STAR WARS HISTORY because it contain information which is not REVISITED in any other book in adequate capacity (see one example below).

Consider a literature review that was published in 2008, and another literature review of same theme that was published in 2012; from which will you commence your work in relation? The latest publication, right?

There are three types of works in relation to Star Wars:-

1. In-universe = From the perspective of historians and scholars in Star Wars (e.g. TCSWE)

When evaluating this kind of literature, WE (the audience) can make do with the argument that the ARCHIVES are not complete and perfect, and therefore, historians and scholars were working with information they had at their disposal in later years. This is the route considered in the Star Wars: Force and Destiny: Core Rulebook in which HISTORY of STAR WARS is REVISITED up to the era of Palpatine but there is shift in his hype (His power may be unparalleled in the history of the Sith). This book BYPASS the contents of SWTOR-E to large extent with the 'contention' that the archives are not complete and perfect in the era of Palpatine and the term "unknown regions" is used vis-à-vis corruption of the duo of Darth Malak and Darth Revan when expanding upon the topic of the Jedi Civil War. This is a SMART approach to not discredit Darth Vitiate and at the same time commit to the seemingly customary practice to promote Palpatine as the big bad of the mythos. This book feign ignorance of the advancements and exploits of Darth Vitiate through the years in the recorded history. In other words, historians and scholars in the era of Palpatine were of the view that Palpatine may be the most powerful Sith based on the ARCHIVES they had at their disposal. In short, this book left Palpatine's hype OPEN TO INTERPRETATION for the audience.

The book also mentioned Ziost and the fact that it was turned into a barren wasteland by war and the dark side of the Force. However, Tenebrae was not hinted or mentioned in relation to this development because the ARCHIVES are not complete and perfect. The book BYPASSED Tenebrae's accomplishment in this case as well which is otherwise noted to be the most powerful display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force in Star Wars in the relevant codex entry of SWTOR. Bear in mind the fact that Ziost was a huge rocky planet with two moons of its own, and one of the heavily-populated and better-protected Imperial Worlds at the time.

The aforementioned CONTEXT can also be extended to the historians and scholars of TCSWE many years in the future. In this manner, TCSWE remains a valid source to consult but not exactly for the HYPE of Exar Kun and Palpatine respectively. The relevant statements can be still be used to hype each in any work but not at the expense of Tenebrae (sorry).

2. Out-of-universe = An author's take on developments in STAR WARS

The author explore and discuss developments in Star Wars through his own "conceptual lens."

3. In-universe = DEFINITIVE

Consensus-building among authors to make in-universe information ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

The authors do not issue a declaration that they are a part of the fictional universe (historians and scholars) but they issue a declaration that the information provided by them is DEFINITIVE for the fictional universe like in the case of SWTOR-E.



But we warned; to create a book that is a comprehensive and expansive authority on Star Wars: The Old Republic, this encyclopedia occasionally describes certain details and revelations that give away key dramatic moments. The overviews of the eight class stories (on pages 50-51, 92-93, 98-99, 136-137, 178-179, 184-185, 216-217, and 234-235) are particularly revealing, however the alternative would be to exclude them altogether - a sacrifice we did not want to make.

Whose declaration is that? OF THE AUTHORS themselves.

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SWTOR project is so vast now that it gives the impression of being an ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE of Star Wars as of late (BioWare-verse). While SWTOR-E cover events up to a certain point in time, SWTOR have another method to provide updates (codex entries).

So when you are creating a blog which is also like a scholarly work, you need to be careful in how you construct your arguments or shape them. This is exactly what I am doing when I am revisiting my blogs in the present.

For instance, I have provided in-universe CONTEXT to information in THE MOST POWERFUL section in my blog (Valkorion Respect Thread) in which I have acknowledged a statement of Mr. Leland Chee of The Father being the most powerful Force-user (issued in 2013) but I also considered canonical information that The Father was in decline thousands of years before The Clone Wars (his powers were eroding over time), therefore, BioWare's promotion is not contradicted in this manner. This [is] the best CONTEXT at hand. There is a reason as to why SWTOR-E [was allowed to] promote Tenebrae as the most powerful Force-user by those who reviewed this book because position of Mr. Leland Chee is not contradicted in it. CONTEXT is the FUNDAMENTAL ASPECT to consider in evaluation, always.

Go through this blog (work-in-progress but with much content in it now): https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/s_w_legend/blog/devastation-of-ziost-updated-and-expanded-in-2020-/105050/

It is mind-numbing to comprehend what Tenebrae pulled off on Ziost while being a mere essence. Not even Abeloth have demonstrated comparable level of power in 'any' world I recall, not even on Coruscant where she was siphoning energy from the planet's inhabitants to fuel her power. Don't get me wrong; she is stupendously powerful but the Jedi and Sith could join hands to stop her and they succeeded in doing so without any deus-ex-machina involved in the process, they did not had to use the Dagger of Mortis either.

Luke Skywalker and Darth Krayt? Try fighting through millions of POSSESSED troops with all manner of heavy gear including massive Walkers and thousands of Force-users including many Jedi Masters; very likely to be overwhelmed in time. Now consider nigh-omnipotent beings of pure dark side energy arriving in the mix some of which would swallow you whole (the largest ones were about the size of super-tall buildings; KAIJU category). Even the smallest one was cutting through heavy structures of duracrete and durasteel as if they were tissue paper, and could not be taken down (attacked TWICE to no avail). Yeah, you better run, and fast, even if you are a Skywalker. Even the COALITION of the Republic and the Empire flopped under the circumstances. They brought everything ranging from HUGE starships to some of the most powerful Force-users in the galaxy, and also attempted other ways to get a FIX on Tenebrae's essence, to no avail.

In short, WE (the audience) are supposed to know better and connect the dots in more informed ways.

Exar Kun still have much going for him by virtue of how Luke Skywalker perceived him and fared against him; nothing to sneeze at here. Only fools would lowball Exar Kun in full view of this information at hand.

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There is only one Star Wars character who is able to BEND even the STORY to her will.... Rey 

My point being that the SWTOR:E which takes place from the point of the Battle of Ilum against the False Emperor, does not contradict the TCSWE quote for Exar Kun. Nor is your assertion that Tenebrae would not be included in an omniscient source really a point against the all-inclusiveness of Kun's quote..

Now if I really wished to push the envelop, which I have in the RT. I can point out that TCSWE is an in-universe omniscient source that was created 150ABY and is stated to have entries in the past-tense. Thus Exar Kun's quote would literally mean that Kun was 'once' the most powerful and dangerous Sith, but he was defeated by a combined Jedi strike force thus was not after that point, he continued to exist in spiritual form thereafter. Hence the 'once'. Take into further consideration that the manuscript was fact-checked by Leland Chee himself and you have the makings of one of the most solid quotes ever made in a Legends source.

That however is not our discussion.

[AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four]

Good RT. We can see that you definitely took your time doing this, worth it.

Thank you.

[Bourbon]

Very nice post but I didn't really understand why the star forge Malak quote is no longer valid. Maybe you can help.

[AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four]

It isn't that the quote is invalid it is that it doesn't mean as it has been interpreted to for a long while.

[Bourbon]

Oh that's what I meant actually. Why doesn't it mean that star forge Malak is above Kun as has been said before?

[AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four]

Well the third post in the thread answers that and all the other supporting stuff that indicates Kun is probably stronger.

[Bourbon]

Is Kun considered an ancient Sith?

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