Re: Exar Kun runs a PT gauntlet

August 26th 2019, 3:46 am

Me reacting to Kulvax getting burnt like

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August 26th 2019, 11:49 am

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Elm ragdolling.

August 26th 2019, 11:51 am

@BreakofDawn

Mace over the course of ROTS grew in power as his darkness (AKA his main source of power) grew.

True enough, but this only helps if his base is strong.

By the start of ROTS Mace is at least Dooku level if not higher, which automatically puts him above base ROTS Anakin.

My personal view is that Anakin (and Dooku) are considerably beyond Mace as of the start of ROTS. Going to need convincing Mace is "at least Dooku level if not higher".

August 26th 2019, 1:07 pm

August 26th 2019, 1:16 pm

Elm ragdolling.

August 26th 2019, 3:48 pm

LOTL wrote:Lol

If you've got something to say, say it. Stop writing "lol" under every one of my posts, it's starting to get irritating.

August 26th 2019, 5:08 pm

Meatpants wrote:Not as epic as Nick Gillard telling me to bugger off so he could ski in Austria lol

Please send a screenshot of that if you still have the email. Sounds amazing.

Also, Elm is now my favourite debater just for these burns he's heaping on Kulv.

August 26th 2019, 5:16 pm

Elm doing the Lord's work

August 26th 2019, 7:22 pm

The Ellimist wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:quote="The Jedi Academy Sourcebook"]A few scant years later, Kun is brought sharply awake by the arrival of not one or two, but a dozen humans blazing with the power he needed to live again. Eagerly but cautiously, Kun observes each arrival, probing for weaknesses and the power he needs to restore his lost reserves of energy.

Exar Kun at that time also said that Luke was too powerful for him to handle.

Jedi VS. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force wrote:Exar Kun corrupted Luke’s most powerful student, Kyp Durron, and attempted to resurrect himself by draining power from Luke and the other trainees.

What does this have to do with anything?

What does this have to do with anything? The argument is that full-body JA Kun would've been far more powerful than full-body TotJ Kun.

Sending (if I can be blunt - unbearably cringeworthy) emails to authors does not actually constitute published source material that goes through an editorial process. You don't seem to want to accept Avellone's claim that Vader > Nihilus, and you don't want to accept the repudiation of your cinematic filters question, funnily enough. You keep ignoring the fact that an author noted (as many have) that their offhanded opinions are not actually a part of the continuity.

BTW, if the author said "more powerful as a spirit", something tells me you wouldn't have conceded the point.

1.Kun at the time before he'd gained energy wasn't powerful enough to take out Luke, yet. That's got no indication for Kun with an actual power source.

2.He's resurrecting himself because he's a spirit, with no energy reserves, bound to the Temples. He's obviously far from his living prime.

3.But full-body JA Kun never happened. TOTJ Kun is obviously far more powerful than his spirit ever became. He's literally limited by his spiritual state and has to leech energy from others to express his power.

4.An author of a character clarifying one of the most common sense questions in the mythos is absolutely warranted here.

August 26th 2019, 8:45 pm

1. That’s my point. We don’t know how peak spirit Kun compares to living TotJ Kun, as that quote refers to him before he met Kyp.

2, 3. Spirit Valkorion was limited in his abilities, but he was still probably more powerful than living pre-Nathema Vitiate. Exar Kun over the course of thousands of years, an entire cult and insanely powerful nexus to drain from, etc, could’ve easily grown in power. Eg it could be:

TotJ Kun - 100
Peak Spirit Kun - << 200
Peak JA Kun - 200

In either case, you can’t just assume that Exar Kun’s power would remain static over the course of thousands of years - that doesn’t make any sense.

4. Pretending that emails hold editorial value is absolutely unwarranted. Consistently phrasing your emails in ways to try to get the responses you want, ie omitting elaboration or articulation of the sources of confusion (probably because you know the author is likely to defer to saying that there’s no concrete answer if you ask for a more specific context, like whether Exar Kun’s full power remained static from TotJ to JA), is unwarranted. Refusing to accept clarifications you don’t like and asking again and again until you get an answer you do is unwarranted and frankly grossly dishonest. I’m not obliged to entertain such dishonest tactics.

August 27th 2019, 12:13 am

Where are you getting all of this from?

It's stated outright that the focusing energies of the temples acted as anchors to stop his spirit from fading completely:

The Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:Exar Kun-who didn't technically die so much as merge with the dark side and retain his identity-resisted the dissolution of his spirit by drawing on the remarkable focusing energies of the Massassi temples on Yavin 4.

It's stated that he's a spirit with no energies, incapable of even remaining awake:

The Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:Exar Kun passed the millennia in uneasy slumber.
A few scant years later, Kun is brought sharply awake by the arrival of not one or two, but a dozen humans blazing with the power he needed to live again. Eagerly but cautiously, Kun observes each arrival, probing for weaknesses and the power he needs to restore his lost reserves of energy. For a time, he is able to subside by feeding on their residual energy, but soon he will need worshippers if he is to grow more active. With a nucleus of followers to provide him energy-providing anger and fear, Kun will have enough power to escape his exile and take on human form. To his surprise, Kun recognizes the leader to be the same man who had visited Yavin Four years earlier, now much more powerful in the Force. Too powerful, for the moment, for Kun to tackle.
Kun finds Gantoris, strong-willed and impatient to learn, to be a more promising first candidate. He easily seduces Gantoris in the same manner that Nadd had seduced him—by promising forbidden knowledge and the truly powerful Jedi secrets Gantoris cannot wait to learn. Carefully building up and feeding on the anger of his first apprentice, Kun grows in power. Soon he feels confident to make an attempt to subvert Luke, knowing that if he can sway the teacher, the students will all follow. Kun, posing as Anakin Skywalker, appears to Luke and attempts to pull him toward the forbidden Sith teachings by tempting hi to use Sith power to seize control of the New Republic and destroy the Empire. Realizing that this shade is not that of his father, Luke rejects the offer.
Enraged and drained, Kun returns to Gantoris. Desperate for more energy, he goads Gantoris to new heights of anger by showing him the Eol Sha colonists dying on Dantooine. Gantoris is pushed too far, however, and turns on his Sith master. Realizing that Gantoris is no longer his, Kun utterly drains him to provide himself a reserve of energy to last until he can subvert more students.
Kun has just begun edging in on Streen when Kyp Durron arrives at the Jedi Academy. Kun immediately senses in the young man his ideal subject. Like Gantoris, Kyp is strong-willed and impatient to learn. Moreover, he is far more powerful than the Eol Sha leader, and young enough to be overconfident and naive.
Over a number of weeks, Kun slowly bends Kyp to his will, and begins to augment his power. He grows very powerful on Kyp's hate, and soon his hold on Kyp is so complete that he can send Kyp beyond the planet to do his will and still retain control over his subject. Ultimately, he has Kyp return to Yavin Four and helps him reclaim the Sun Crusher. He also bolsters Kyp's talents to allow him to defeat Luke and place him in a coma.

The Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:Exar Kun himself possessed a great many other dark powers that he was unable to harness without the energy he needed to fuel his disembodied will.

The Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:She[Tionne] supposes that the students have a chance of defeating him, since Kun no longer has his servants to draw power from, he[Streen] is his only source.

In actual fact, whilst Kyp's energies and negative emotions do make Kun's spirit more active. Kun is nonetheless confirmed to be the more powerful threat between the two:

Jedi Academy Vol.2: Dark Apprentice wrote:His best students were going sour, getting impatient, trying to push the limits of their abilities. But he had sensed a greater, deeper menace that vibrated within the very stones of the Great Temple itself. . . evil, and well hidden.

I, Jedi wrote:"And who will stop me?" I hesitated because Kyp's words seemed to echo within themselves, we were not alone, which meant Kyp's mentor had come to aid his apprentice.

"I will, if you make it necessary." An ancient sneer of contempt twisted Kyp's features.

"Puny Jedi, you are of no concern to me." Even though I had braced myself for another attack, it did no good. Kyp's previous blows were like light breezes compared to this full-on gale. I slammed back into the wall with teeth rattling-impact.

In fact, that Kun possessed Kyp indicates Kun basically dwarfed Kyp in willpower, which would correlate with the power he'd have in his prime given that per Ant:

DarthAnt66 wrote:However, the difficulty of essence transfer is utterly disproportionate to conventional abilities. It’s “nearly impossible” “to overcome a spirit already residing in a body” per the Dark Empire Sourcebook. As to why, the Dark Side Sourcebook explains, “If you transfer your essence to another body, and the original consciousness asserts control, you are simply forced out, and the original body survives,” seemingly regardless of context, meaning the original consciousness has a nigh-insurmountable advantage over the contending consciousness.

Kun was indeed possessing Kyp Durron:

Jedi Academy Vol.3: Champions of the Force wrote:And then the haunting voice of Exar Kun rose to a wail in his mind, an utterly forlorn scream as if he were being torn out of this universe and exiled to another place entirely, where he could torment Kyp Durron no more. Kyp snapped backward in his control seat as if an invisible tow cable had been severed. His arms and head dangled like a puppet with suddenly snipped strings. The cool wind of freedom whistled through his mind and body. He blinked his eyes and shuddered with revulsion at what he had been about to do.

Now I don't know what kind of drug you've been on, but my question to Tom was literally just 'Was Kun more powerful when he was alive or after he became a spirit?' His answer was equally simple. You simply refuse to acknowledge the answer.

August 27th 2019, 8:03 pm

LadyKulvax wrote:Where are you getting all of this from?

It's stated outright that the focusing energies of the temples acted as anchors to stop his spirit from fading completely:

Yes...by drawing on its power (over the course of thousands of years). Drawing on something's power is also likely to boost one's power. They're not mutually exclusive, and indeed it would be weird if it didn't boost Exar Kun's power. The only other explanation is if the nexus was just enough to cancel out the fading away of the void with no net effect, which is unlikely because the temples of yavin iv are some of the most powerful dark side foci in the galaxy, and much weaker nexuses have been sufficient to anchor sith spirits.

Did spirit Vitiate not grow stronger drawing on the Ziost nexus and its inhabitants?

Most Sith who come back from death are more powerful than they were originally.

It's stated that he's a spirit with no energies, incapable of even remaining awake:

My point is that a hypothetical living JA Kun would be substantially more powerful than TotJ Kun.

In actual fact, whilst Kyp's energies and negative emotions do make Kun's spirit more active. Kun is nonetheless confirmed to be the more powerful threat between the two:

Jedi Academy Vol.2: Dark Apprentice wrote:His best students were going sour, getting impatient, trying to push the limits of their abilities. But he had sensed a greater, deeper menace that vibrated within the very stones of the Great Temple itself. . . evil, and well hidden.

This is just hilarious. You refuse to acknowledge that Malak's "powers" in an article about combat stats refers mainly to combative Force power, and cast doubts on Sidious's dozens of most powerful quotes, but you immediately accept that phrases like "threat", "darkest power", and now "greater, deeper menace" refer to combat power. Apparently, that the evil, manipulative, sorcerer sith lord Exar Kun was a greater menace than trainees going "sour" and "getting impatient" has to be a direct comparison of combat power between Kyp and Exar Kun. I mean, seriously? How could you repeat such blatant double standards with a straight face?

In fact, that Kun possessed Kyp indicates Kun basically dwarfed Kyp in willpower, which would correlate with the power he'd have in his prime given that per Ant:

What you just quoted says nothing about the correlation between willpower and power. The young Kyp Durron was impetuous and easily manipulated by Exar Kun, but if you seriously think that the theme of Kyp's character arc in that story was that he was too weak in combat power, I don't know what story you read.

Kun was indeed possessing Kyp Durron:

Kyp wanted to be possessed.

Now I don't know what kind of drug you've been on, but my question to Tom was literally just 'Was Kun more powerful when he was alive or after he became a spirit?' His answer was equally simple. You simply refuse to acknowledge the answer.

What is it with you and ignoring major points after they're repeated again and again, until one has to explicitly call you out on ignoring it (and even then that doesn't always work)? Author emails hold no editorial value. Your emails of authors are incredibly dishonest in a number of ways, but even if they weren't, the answers aren't actually a part of the continuity. You seem to adopt this position whenever the answer doesn't suit your fancy, like cinematic filters, the SF Malak response to Ant, Avellone saying Vader > Nihilus, Wallace saying Sidious is the most powerful Sith, etc., and this is just with the answers that have been publicized (I wonder what you do with the private author responses that you don't like...)

August 27th 2019, 9:12 pm

The Ellimist wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:Where are you getting all of this from?

It's stated outright that the focusing energies of the temples acted as anchors to stop his spirit from fading completely:

Yes...by drawing on its power (over the course of thousands of years). Drawing on something's power is also likely to boost one's power. They're not mutually exclusive, and indeed it would be weird if it didn't boost Exar Kun's power. The only other explanation is if the nexus was just enough to cancel out the fading away of the void with no net effect, which is unlikely because the temples of yavin iv are some of the most powerful dark side foci in the galaxy, and much weaker nexuses have been sufficient to anchor sith spirits.

It's literally stated what use it provides him, and destroying one caused Kun to lose some of his ability to remain in the physical realm.

The Ellimist wrote:Did spirit Vitiate not grow stronger drawing on the Ziost nexus and its inhabitants?

Vitiate's wildly inconsistent with the rest of the mythos, literally on purpose. Not that you're right.

The Ellimist wrote:Most Sith who come back from death are more powerful than they were originally.

Kun never died, he ascended.

The Ellimist wrote:

It's stated that he's a spirit with no energies, incapable of even remaining awake:

My point is that a hypothetical living JA Kun would be substantially more powerful than TotJ Kun.

It's possible but spirit Kun itself was weaker than he was in his living prime. And half insane at this point, too.

The Ellimist wrote:

In actual fact, whilst Kyp's energies and negative emotions do make Kun's spirit more active. Kun is nonetheless confirmed to be the more powerful threat between the two:

Jedi Academy Vol.2: Dark Apprentice wrote:His best students were going sour, getting impatient, trying to push the limits of their abilities. But he had sensed a greater, deeper menace that vibrated within the very stones of the Great Temple itself. . . evil, and well hidden.

This is just hilarious. You refuse to acknowledge that Malak's "powers" in an article about combat stats refers mainly to combative Force power, and cast doubts on Sidious's dozens of most powerful quotes, but you immediately accept that phrases like "threat", "darkest power", and now "greater, deeper menace" refer to combat power. Apparently, that the evil, manipulative, sorcerer sith lord Exar Kun was a greater menace than trainees going "sour" and "getting impatient" has to be a direct comparison of combat power between Kyp and Exar Kun. I mean, seriously? How could you repeat such blatant double standards with a straight face?

As if me literally proving your interpretation of the Malak quote didn't happen when you've spent three posts trying to scream about how you're right and the fvcking Star Wars Databank is wrong.

But no, Luke is stating that he feels a greater enemy than Kyp Durron is active despite knowing that Kyp just bull-dozed through Corran Horn, because he literally can't pinpoint this threat despite trying to.

The Ellimist wrote:

In fact, that Kun possessed Kyp indicates Kun basically dwarfed Kyp in willpower, which would correlate with the power he'd have in his prime given that per Ant:

What you just quoted says nothing about the correlation between willpower and power. The young Kyp Durron was impetuous and easily manipulated by Exar Kun, but if you seriously think that the theme of Kyp's character arc in that story was that he was too weak in combat power, I don't know what story you read.

Wìllpower and power are directly stated to correlate, in fact willpower is literally the strongest means of measurement.

The Ellimist wrote:

Kun was indeed possessing Kyp Durron:

Kyp wanted to be possessed.

Wut? He literally left Yavin IV because he was trying to break out of Kun's control. Kun not only possessed him but corrupted him literally, hence the fact he's describe as a puppet snipped of its strings and then he 'shudders in revulsion' at what he was about to do. So no, Kyp didn't want to be possessed. Given that Kyp's sheer willpower made it impossible for Luke to read him throughout Jedi Search and Dark Apprentice, I somehow doubt Kyp's easily dominated. Besides that:

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Exar Kun runs a PT gauntlet - Page 3 20190811

Beyond that, Kun was multitasking by binding Luke's spirit so that he couldn't reenter his body, something that only stopped when Kun was destroyed:

Jedi Academy Vol.3: Champions of the Force wrote:With a wheezing cough as he expelled long-trapped air from his lungs and drew in a fresh breath, Master Skywalker groaned and sat up on the stone platform.

"You've-done it!" Luke said, gaining strength from each lungful of cool, clean air. The new Jedi Knights surged toward him. "You have broken the bonds."

The Ellimist wrote:

Now I don't know what kind of drug you've been on, but my question to Tom was literally just 'Was Kun more powerful when he was alive or after he became a spirit?' His answer was equally simple. You simply refuse to acknowledge the answer.

What is it with you and ignoring major points after they're repeated again and again, until one has to explicitly call you out on ignoring it (and even then that doesn't always work)? Author emails hold no editorial value. Your emails of authors are incredibly dishonest in a number of ways, but even if they weren't, the answers aren't actually a part of the continuity. You seem to adopt this position whenever the answer doesn't suit your fancy, like cinematic filters, the SF Malak response to Ant, Avellone saying Vader > Nihilus, Wallace saying Sidious is the most powerful Sith, etc., and this is just with the answers that have been publicized (I wonder what you do with the private author responses that you don't like...)

I've never once been dishonest with authors in my questions. Continue to attack me personally and I'm reporting you. Just because you believe in death of the author, doesn't mean I have to abide by your personal definitions of what's meaningful.

1.The 'cinematic filters' was a literal guess from Hall Hood, who clearly didn't know. This was proven wrong as Ziost's sun literally changes in-game too.

2.The SF!Malak response which I literally replied to and acknowledged in the other thread? Do keep up.

3.Avellone says movie Vader > Nihilus, feel free to try and arguing that.

4.Wallace says Sidious is the most powerful Sith, Leland Chee says there's no such thing as a most powerful Sith in Legends. I wonder who's statement is more valuable?

Are you done?

August 28th 2019, 1:19 am

LadyKulvax wrote:I've never once been dishonest with authors in my questions. Continue to attack me personally and I'm reporting you. Just because you believe in death of the author, doesn't mean I have to abide by your personal definitions of what's meaningful.

1.The 'cinematic filters' was a literal guess from Hall Hood, who clearly didn't know. This was proven wrong as Ziost's sun literally changes in-game too.

2.The SF!Malak response which I literally replied to and acknowledged in the other thread? Do keep up.

3.Avellone says movie Vader > Nihilus, feel free to try and arguing that.

4.Wallace says Sidious is the most powerful Sith, Leland Chee says there's no such thing as a most powerful Sith in Legends. I wonder who's statement is more valuable?

Are you done?

So even after I point out that you've been ignoring points, you still aren't going to respond to the observation that emails aren't a part of published source material?

It seems like the only way to get you to actually respond to the key points is to only make them so you can't just respond to other ones instead.

August 28th 2019, 1:26 am

I just said that you believing in death of the author doesn't mean I have to.

August 28th 2019, 2:09 am

LadyKulvax wrote:I just said that you believing in death of the author doesn't mean I have to.

So you think you get to just decide that authors now don't have to go through the official approval process to get their musings into the continuity, but can instead reply to emails? Because you say so?

If an author said on Twitter that Sidious was actually Vitiate's reincarnation, are we obliged to take that seriously?

August 28th 2019, 2:51 pm

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:More than likely gets dropped at 5 however he could make it higher through advanced sorcery and other esoteric abilities.

August 28th 2019, 3:01 pm

Meatpants wrote:Not as epic as Nick Gillard telling me to bugger off so he could ski in Austria lol

lol what?

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August 28th 2019, 4:43 pm

out of order .
7 and 13 are almost entirely the same person .
even if you could argue KF vader is more "mentally" stable he is already a nut case .
they are both slightly below yoda , sidious and amped mace .
not amped mace is around IH dooku level (but with better stamina and strenght plus more aggresive style) .
base LS anakin should be below dooku .

kun would lose to RoTS obi wan in sabers but he is far superior as a force user .
he could potentially ragdoll and not even engage in a duel .
he stops at IH rage amped anakin .