Yoda vs. Knightfall Vader

And you're assuming Anakin needs knowledge and mastery? Everything Dooku had learned of the Force in his 83 years of life was a "joke" compared to Anakin.

We have Anakin's placement as a 9 on the tiering system, with the "least flaws" in his style relative to Yoda and Sheev, as well as Lucas's own assessment placing Anakin and Sids as equally powerful. Not sure what else you want, and cherry picking things from the mythos like a factually hindered Anakin getting his TK blocked by Kenobi, or him being unable to follow Mace and Sids without his senses ramped up is supposed to do. Yoda has more experience and mastery, but Vader has more power and is a better duellist. He wins, or at the very least hangs, whether you like it or not.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:We have Anakin's placement as a 9 on the tiering system, with the "least flaws" in his style relative to Yoda and Sheev, as well as Lucas's own assessment placing Anakin and Sids as equally powerful. Not sure what else you want, and cherry picking things from the mythos like a factually hindered Anakin getting his TK blocked by Kenobi, or him being unable to follow Mace and Sids without his senses ramped up is supposed to do. Yoda has more experience and mastery, but Vader has more power and is a better duellist. He wins, or at the very least hangs, whether you like it or not.

lol at vader being the better duelist than yoda ...
he might be in the top 10 (top 5 even) but yoda is n1 in this department .
vader has more raw power and more powerful strikes which can exhaust his opponents but he doesn´t have better technique .

Yoda. Thing is Yoda has a good idea how powerful Knightfall Vader is, he saw him slaughter Cin Drallig, yet he was still comfortable with sending Obi-Wan out alone to deal with Anakin while he was certain only he was strong enough to face Sidious. Anakin's mental shortcoming isn't specific only to Mustafar, Gillard was speaking in general when he said Anakin has yet to master the mental side of things, while Yoda being the consummate Jedi almost certainly has.

Loled at Anakin being a better duelist. Anakin loses this badly whether you like it or not. Also Anakin being as powerful as Sidious is laughable. Putting a guy who fails to push Kenobi above the guy whose lightning bending sabers is ridicilous. IDK what happened but KF Anakin wank reached to levels that shouldn't be possible.

It's been established you don't have to be even near equal to resist a Force push, again look to Bane and Kas'im, Kenobi deflecting Vader's Force push is consistent with Vader being a lot more powerful.

Anakin is indeed powerful, no questions here. However he barely knows how to utilize his power. When it comes to Force, it has always been shown Anakin being quite careless and uncaring about the Force Abilities. If Kenobi can resist Vader's TK, Yoda overwhelms him into the Oblivion. Anakin in the past also performed poorly against opponents weaker than Kenobi when it comes to TK. Unless this match up is a physical strength test, Anakin is inferior in every other way to Yoda and loses without a doubt.

Also Kenobi being capable of defeating Vader and Yoda not being able to do the same is a great logic guys. If KF was any powerful than Sidious, Yoda would visit him personally to put the rabid dog down. So unless you have actual arguements on why KFV wins, Yoda appears to be the absolute victor here.

I think most of the evidence points to Yoda winning here. Mostly due to superior mastery and experience with close enough power.

Sheev only said Vader will become more powerful than himself and Yoda, not that he had already. While Yoda doesn't have any accolades per say which put him above Vader, he is near enough an equal for RotS Sheev, who does have accolades that could put him above Vader. Frankly Sheev seems more dangerous than Vader overall regardless due to him being a more precise, smarter fighter with more lethal tools (lightning).

While I don't think a comparison between Yoda and Kenobi is really fair in order to put Yoda above Vader, due to the unique circumstances of Kenobi vs Vader, the fact remains, Kenobi was holding his own against Vader's raw power in every sense very well - and Yoda is on another tier from Kenobi.

@hellfireunit I will quote an argument ant has made in the past in regards to your obi wan argument.

[size=34]- The fact Yoda tells Obi-Wan, "To fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough, you are not," does not indicate that Palpatine is stronger than Anakin. Note that Yoda does not have an exact gauge on Palpatine's powers, nor would Yoda know Anakin's newfound powers. Yoda's statement likely stems from the fact that Palpatine's largely an unknown quantity except besides being reigning Dark Lord of the Sith and thereby likely and demonstrably having supreme knowledge on the dark side of the Force and arcane abilities (e.g. Palpatine diminished the Jedi's abilities to use the Force, which the Jedi note and identify the Dark Lord as behind it), and at the bare minimum should be comparable to Anakin. In contrast, Obi-Wan already knows Anakin's fighting style "intimately," so much so it's noted that Obi-Wan can parry his attacks instinctively and without thinking and that them fighting each other have been likened to fighting themselves. Sources constantly attribute Obi-Wan's knowledge on Anakin as the primary reason he's able to defend himself. Thus, if Yoda has to choose between sending a tier 8 to fight a tier 9 with mysterious and arcane dark side abilities or sending a tier 8 to fight a tier 9 that he's either fought or fought alongside every day for the last three years, the obvious choice is the latter. Arguing otherwise assumes blatant inconsistency with Lucas and Gillard's statements, and we should always try to reconcile sources before we write it off as a contradiction, especially when it's easy to rationalize.[/size]


This pretty much explains my thoughts on this. Also zonakin decimated Dooku who is at the very least an equal in sabers to obi wan. KF Vader is>zonakin. So its obvious MFV is a great deal inferior to KF Vader meaning you cannot use MFV's duel with Kenobi to conclude that KF Vader is no match for Yoda.

KingofBlades wrote:@hellfireunit I will quote an argument ant has made in the past in regards to your obi wan argument.

[size=37]- The fact Yoda tells Obi-Wan, "To fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough, you are not," does not indicate that Palpatine is stronger than Anakin. Note that Yoda does not have an exact gauge on Palpatine's powers, nor would Yoda know Anakin's newfound powers. Yoda's statement likely stems from the fact that Palpatine's largely an unknown quantity except besides being reigning Dark Lord of the Sith and thereby likely and demonstrably having supreme knowledge on the dark side of the Force and arcane abilities (e.g. Palpatine diminished the Jedi's abilities to use the Force, which the Jedi note and identify the Dark Lord as behind it), and at the bare minimum should be comparable to Anakin. In contrast, Obi-Wan already knows Anakin's fighting style "intimately," so much so it's noted that Obi-Wan can parry his attacks instinctively and without thinking and that them fighting each other have been likened to fighting themselves. Sources constantly attribute Obi-Wan's knowledge on Anakin as the primary reason he's able to defend himself. Thus, if Yoda has to choose between sending a tier 8 to fight a tier 9 with mysterious and arcane dark side abilities or sending a tier 8 to fight a tier 9 that he's either fought or fought alongside every day for the last three years, the obvious choice is the latter. Arguing otherwise assumes blatant inconsistency with Lucas and Gillard's statements, and we should always try to reconcile sources before we write it off as a contradiction, especially when it's easy to rationalize.[/size]


This pretty much explains my thoughts on this. Also zonakin decimated Dooku who is at the very least an equal in sabers to obi wan. KF Vader is>zonakin. So its obvious MFV is a great deal inferior to KF Vader meaning you cannot use MFV's duel with Kenobi to conclude that KF Vader is no match for Yoda.

Now let's point out some stuff here:

Yoda and Sidious faced off before, back in Clone Wars in this illusion Yoda finds himself in. He is well aware of Sidious' skill and powers, they were evenly matched in that illusion with Yoda being able to overpower Sidious' lightning and push him back unlike in RotS. In the end, they were both about to die but Yoda's willpower proved itself and Sidious was unable to break the Grandmaster. Both are aware of how powerful and strong they are. Sidious was able to effortlessly Force Choke Anakin, had Kenobi faced the Sith Master his fate would be the same. Yoda and Kenobi were also aware of Anakin's power and skill. They observed the footage, how can you claim that they are not aware of Anakin's skill and powers? But still, he sent Kenobi to deal with his former apprentice. If Anakin was as powerful as even Clone Wars Sidious, Kenobi would be ragdolled by Anakin. This alone shows KFV is still inferior to CW Palpatine, who matched Yoda in sabers and Force. Therefore the arguement you present is not valid and Yoda claiming Kenobi being not strong enough to face with Sidious does absolutely imply Sidious is superior to Anakin. Obi-Wan does stand a chance against a less powerful foe with comparable skill in sabers and whose techniques and trainings Kenobi is aware of. If Anakin was any powerful than Sidious or even equal to him, Yoda would pay a visit to him. Yoda is way above of Kenobi without a question and he went on to take down the more powerful and dangerous foe, who destroyed the best Jedi Masters. 

Also MFV being inferior to KFV is non-sense. There is literally nothing suggesting that Anakin's speed, strength and power has reduced. Maybe he is less stable but that's it. If MFV failed to push Kenobi, KFV won't succeeding pushing him neither. When Yoda sent Kenobi, they both didn't think that Anakin would be any less powerful to his KF self. He may even be stronger due to the disturbance in the Force and the eradication of Jedi. 

As a result, Ant's past arguement does not have any validity since it does not involve Clone Wars encounter and has flawed logic. Yoda is superior to Vader in every conceivable aspect except for physical strength. If he performs the same as he did against Palpatine, he stomps and even blitzes Skywalker.

@Azronger @DarthAnt66 @ILS any thoughts on my arguement?

More accurately by the script. Obi-wan pushes Anakin

@Hellfireunit you're still neglecting the fact that zonakin decimated Dooku, a rough sabers equal to Kenobi, effortlessly. Since KF is at the very least equal to zonakin, MFV must be much weaker than KF Vader since MFV was stymied by a Kenobi level duelist while zonakin stomped a Kenobi level duelist.

@HellfireUnit

Honestly, Vader couldn't Force Push Kenobi, he is completely outmatched by Yoda in the Force.

You're talking about MFV, who was conflicted and not at his full power. KF is much more powerful.

He never cared to learn about the Force, even though he was the strongest non celestial being ever existed.

Anakin learnt a lot more than you think he did.

Also I don't see how Anakin could react to Yoda since he couldn't even comprehend the speed of Sheev and Mace. 

A much weaker Anakin who was < Dooku. 

He is stronger physically but that won't be the deciding factor of this fight. Yoda is far more capable of using his strength, power and his skill with Lightsaber combined with his speed completely outmatches Anakin.

He's really not. KFV is literally confirmed as a peer of Mace, Sidious and Yoda. He also has an edge in strength, arguably in raw power, and his skill is definitely comparable. 

Another arguement: Anakin lost to Kenobi, he isn't defeating Yoda lmao

I really hope you're trolling.

KingofBlades wrote:@Hellfireunit you're still neglecting the fact that zonakin decimated Dooku, a rough sabers equal to Kenobi, effortlessly. Since KF is at the very least equal to zonakin, MFV must be much weaker than KF Vader since MFV was stymied by a Kenobi level duelist while zonakin stomped a Kenobi level duelist.

You are still ignoring the fact that Dooku was holding back and had his orders from Sheev. He was fatigued and didn't take Anakin seriously until it was too late. MFV isn't much weaker than KFV, or even "weaker" than MFV at all. You ignore my arguements above to a great degree.

Bruh have you read the fight in the novel. Dooku stopped holding back early on in the fight. His fatigue was caused by Anakin himself so you can't use that argument. And in regards to your argument. You are using a scene from the clone wars to override multiple statements from GL and Gillard. Per canon policy my sources override yours. This is also assuming Yoda thought the event was real or that he thought it represented their actual powers in the physical world. Per your own source Anakin is shown defeating Dooku in seconds which Yoda saw. Not only that Yoda knows that on the IH Dooku defeated Obi Wan and that Anakin defeated Dooku solo. So Yoda knows based on feats Kenobi is nowhere Anakin's equal. So if we assume Yoda has at least half a brain, he would not believe Obi Wan had any actual chance at defeating jedi Anakin let alone KF Vader. Rather since Obi Wan and himself were the only jedi that could act he was forced to send Obi Wan against one of the two dark lords. And since Obi wan knew Anakin's style intimately while knowing nothing about any aspect of Sheev's power it's logical that Obi Wan was sent to fight Vader. But the notion that Yoda sent Obi Wan out of a belief that he was on par with Vader is absurd.

Yeah even George Lucas confirmed Anakin was on par with the emperor in ROTS

Currently moving my house, I'll be in touch boys and will respond as soon as I am avaiable.

All-out and knowledge of each other's abilities, 30 meters starting distance.

I don't want to comment on this after Bran ragdolled me.

KFV

You made the same thread twice. Merged the threads

KF Vader is confirmed to be the stronger one per several quotes and potentially a better duelist as well. He takes a solid majority, though it’s definitely a good fight.

Vader.

Yoda