Re: Yoda vs. Knightfall Vader

December 16th 2020, 3:22 pm

Sjuttiosju wrote:Vader is Yoda's equal as a swordsman and superior in power due to more favourable comparisons with Sidious. He wins.

December 16th 2020, 4:11 pm

Following is relevant:

Clip from The Clone Wars Season 6 Episode Sacrifice

Palpatine was able to gauge respective abilities of both Master Yoda and Anakin Skywalker from his RITUAL. The findings are as follows: Anakin Skywalker will defeat Count Dooku in the expected duel but Palpatine is more than capable of defeating the latter should he come for him. Yoda on the other hand...

"We have failed to break Master Yoda... he is strong. We will need more time if we are defeat to him and the Jedi."

Those findings are in sync with what is established in Episode 3.

From Star Wars Podcast:

Anakin is clearly stated to be no match for Palpatine (7:20 - 8:25)

While Palpatine conducted a RITUAL to gauge respective abilities of both Master Yoda and Anakin, the Five Priestesses were also involved in helping Yoda see things more clearly and he eventually learned about the emergence of another Skywalker (this would be Luke Skywalker) who will be of much help in defeating Sith. Master Yoda is the only individual with this knowledge and he decides to keep it a secret.

It is also clearly stated in Episode 3 novelization that Anakin could barely keep up with moves of Mace Windu and Palpatine in the course of their duel while observing from a distance. This was a clue as well.

I recall a source in which Anakin was stated to be the most powerful Jedi by virtue of his sheer Midichlorian Count - just this variable. This is a much different interpretation of being powerful for a character in the lore because potential does not equate to realizing it through extensive training and mental aptitude. Sheer Midichlorian Count of Anakin did not prevent Count Dooku from cutting off his hand and it did not help Anakin regenerate lost body parts. What is ultimately established in Cartoons and Films matters in the end.

What George Lucas had to say is a thing of the past. If his view is really important then it is better to reach out to him to explain his statement. However, what he says won't change the lore.

December 16th 2020, 6:16 pm

well ROTS Yoda was more or less equal to Sidious who is equal to KFV, but Yodas Prime was 200 years prior so Prime Yoda is likely a substantial amount above KFV
so Yoda would win

December 17th 2020, 9:47 am

@The Found:

Proof Lucas has Vader equal to Sheev? Since thats what your entire counter to the quote is predicated on.

HP has quoted it already.

I mean it's literally in the movie, dude. That's why he's Sheev's apprentice. He subjects himself to further training. Hence Sheev's quote.

Anakin subjects himself to Sheev's teachings to learn the secret to immortality for Padme... not because he has anything to learn in terms of manifesting his power properly.

Besides, you've just spent all this time talking about how he couldn't fully bring his power to bear against Dooku without encouragement and how he apparently can't set aside his thoughts about Sheev just to fight him, so per your own logic his mental and emotional control is still sub par.

Dooku is the guy who cut off his arm, and Palpatine has spent years emotionally manipulating him. Using those examples specifically does little to help your broad point about Anakin's lacking mastery generally.

In any case, as far as that quote is concerned, the burden of proof lies with you to prove that Anakin can compete with Sheev.

I never argued he could? My whole point in this debate has been that Anakin is Sheev's equal in pure physical combat and force power, which grants him victory over Yoda (who demonstrably isn't)... not that Anakin can compete with Sheev directly (which we can attribute to Sids ability to psychologically fuck with him).

I actually don't care if you think something is "hardly unlikely", what I was after was proof. Since we both know there's none lets say you concede the point and we save time.

I provided a specific example of someone being able to destabilise ROTS Anakin with taunts (which you didn't address btw)... how you're drawing from that that there's no evidence for someone being able to mess with Anakin's very fragile psyche is beyond me.

Sure, there are factors aside from power involved, but you're dodging the point. It's neither here nor there when Yoda is talking exclusively about power. There's no way for any of them to have the level of foresight we have OOU to know how all of the various factors will play out and its a pure assumption on your part to suggest Yoda has them all worked out. All Yoda knows for certain is Kenobi has absolutely zero chance against Sidious just because of a power difference. Whereas he at least has a slim chance against Vader.

Someone as intelligent and knowledgeable as Yoda being unaware of the impact that familiarity can have on a fight takes a huge reach to suggest, and simply because he makes no reference to it doesn't mean he's not factoring it in. Kenobi can easily be not strong enough to face Sheev, but strong enough to face Anakin once you add the additional advantages. Moreover, Yoda is a fallible IU character who again doesn't have the authority to override Lucas. So even if you're right on every single ROTS quote here it means nothing, as George overturns all of them (and beyond the reasons I've posited for the "compete" quote, HP has pointed out that it doesn't even include Anakin beyond saying he can beat Sheev later).

December 17th 2020, 4:16 pm Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)

Sjuttiosju wrote:HP has quoted it already.

Should probably read my response to him then if you're still confused.

I never argued he could? My whole point in this debate has been that Anakin is Sheev's equal in pure physical combat and force power, which grants him victory over Yoda (who demonstrably isn't)... not that Anakin can compete with Sheev directly (which we can attribute to Sids ability to psychologically fuck with him).

Ok, but Yoda per Lucas can compete with Sheev. If you're changing your argument to Vader being incapable of the same then congratulations.

I provided a specific example of someone being able to destabilise ROTS Anakin with taunts (which you didn't address btw)...

Because it doesn't alleviate you of the burden of proof retard. Your claim is that Vader has a specific psychological vulnerability against Sheev, go ahead and prove it instead of wasting my time.

how you're drawing from that that there's no evidence for someone being able to mess with Anakin's very fragile psyche is beyond me.

Stop acting retarded. Either Anakin is a psychological wreck who can barely keep it together or he's a Force master who doesn't need any more training. Currently you want to have your cake and eat it by changing your stance whenever you need to for a given point. It's obvious from the writing and the OOU commentary (when you aren't cherrypicking it) that Vader's primary drawback is that he can't fully control his power and his emotions, and that the main thing separating him and Sheev/Yoda/Mace is this lack of mastery, which is usually a prerequisite to be a "tier 9".

Someone as intelligent and knowledgeable as Yoda being unaware of the impact that familiarity can have on a fight takes a huge reach to suggest,

That's the thing, I'm not suggesting anything. You're the one making suggestions. You're the one who appears to be capable of reading Yoda's mind and clueing all of us in as to what Yoda is thinking whenever he makes a statement. The only problem is, as usual, you want to make these assumptions without providing any proof of them, and instead of acknowledging that you don't have any proof you want to waste my time going on the hamster wheel. You'd think after like 2 years you would have figured out how to debate competently but I guess I'd be reaching to assume as much huh?

and simply because he makes no reference to it doesn't mean he's not factoring it in.

There's no reason to think he is, and he doesn't mention it. All he says is that Kenobi had better not fight Sheev because he has literally zero chance due to a power disparity.

Kenobi can easily be not strong enough to face Sheev, but strong enough to face Anakin once you add the additional advantages.

What has prior knowledge of how Anakin fights got to do with mitigating a power disparity? How would that stop him from being destroyed with telekinesis or lightning, as he would be against Sidious? Obviously it's a rhetorical question because as usual you won't have an answer for this, but feel free to waste more of both my time and your own by trying to come up with one.

Moreover, Yoda is a fallible IU character who again doesn't have the authority to override Lucas.

It's a good thing neither of them contradict each other then, isn't it?

So even if you're right on every single ROTS quote here

I think we both know I am.

it means nothing, as George overturns all of them (and beyond the reasons I've posited for the "compete" quote, HP has pointed out that it doesn't even include Anakin beyond saying he can beat Sheev later).

Again, actually go and read my response to HP instead of just parroting "see! he posted a thing! now I don't need to debate!"

Lucas said that in a future context Anakin would have been able to kill Sidious (which is funnily enough what Sidious, a character written by Lucas, said, shocker right?). Hence "will become more powerful than us", hence Yoda sending Obi-Wan to fight the weaker of the two Sith, hence "you need to be Yoda or Mace to compete with the Emperor." It's clear that even where telekinesis is concerned Obi-Wan can at least compete with Anakin, the idea of him replicating the same against Sidious is comical. So no, I don't buy for a second that Vader can take Yoda when he's just barely able to defeat Obi-Wan.

December 17th 2020, 4:32 pm

December 17th 2020, 5:33 pm

Split.

December 17th 2020, 7:30 pm

KFV wins due to being younger, fitter and having a reach advantage. Yoda is just too old and fragile to take a victory.

December 17th 2020, 8:51 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Yeah, no shit Sherlock, hence "Vader will become more powerful than either of us." Since you're appealing to authorial intent why not choose to factor in Lucas' actual writing instead of cherry picking sections of interviews. And like I said earlier, since that future context would presumably be after Anakin was "mentally" a tier 9 after completing his training or otherwise gets there - it's pretty obvious that until such a time comes he can't truly compete with Sheev.

Why does that preclude parity? Per Lucas, Anakin is only as powerful as Palpatine. Yoda vs. Knightfall Vader - Page 4 1289255181

December 29th 2020, 1:10 pm

The one who is physically tier nine in addition to having acquired the discipline and mental mastery that goes with it, a deficiency than enabled a lesser fighter in Kenobi to beat him. Yoda can sustain a hard pace for ten minutes, he's not going to be outlasted and Anakin isn't a defensive wizard.

December 30th 2020, 11:24 am

Vader cause Yoda can just be waited out.

December 30th 2020, 12:09 pm

Vader

December 30th 2020, 12:29 pm

Yoda sorta smacks, KF can beat ROTS Yoda but ROTS Yoda is Yoda after 200 years of decline, Prime Yoda would surely destroy

December 30th 2020, 3:57 pm

Lucas has said that Anakin is as powerful as Sidious, who’s equal to or more powerful than Yoda, on two occasions now. And according to Gillard, who worked closely with Lucas, Anakin is the better duelist of the two with the least amount of flaws. Anakin’s at worst equally powerful as Yoda, as well is definitely the better duelist, he wins.

January 26th 2021, 10:46 pm

Yoda teaches Anakin a lesson.