Yoda vs. Knightfall Vader

Leaning towards Vader.

leaning towards yoda

Yoda’s greater experience and knowledge should net him a victory in a close fight.

Who wins?

KFV.

Give reasons please.

Yoda unless Vader manages to become stronger partway through.

Yoda wins. They are equally powerful but Yoda is more experienced and more masterful.

Yoda handily.

Anakin Skywalker's leap to TIER 9 (Nick Gillard TIERS) was due to him embracing ways of the dark side to help guide his actions. This served him well (versus Count Dooku) under the circumstances of the duel on Invisible Hand but not on Mustafar (versus Obi-Wan Kenobi) where reaching the higher ground could be an advantage. Anakin's Force powers were not developed to the extent of overwhelming Obi-Wan at the time and even as far as in Episode 4.

Yoda was in TIER 9 through enlightenment - with his masterful applications of CONTROL and SENSE to help guide his actions besides his raw strength.

Vader is Yoda's equal as a swordsman and superior in power due to more favourable comparisons with Sidious. He wins.

"Vader will become more powerful than either of us."
"You need to be Mace or Yoda to fight the Emperor."
"Strong enough to face this Lord Sidious, you will never be/you are not."

@The Found:

"Vader will become more powerful than either of us."

Him only becoming more powerful than Sheev later doesn't contradict the idea that he is equally powerful to him in the present, as confirmed by Lucas.

"You need to be Mace or Yoda to fight the Emperor."

Probably because Anakin is uniquely psychologically vulnerable where Sids is concerned. Doesn't mean he can't overwhelm Yoda due to his parity with Sheev in pure power.

"Strong enough to face this Lord Sidious, you will never be/you are not."

In reference to Kenobi, who only manages to defeat Anakin as a result of the latters arrogance, and only holds for so long against his onslaught due to prior knowledge of how Anakin fights and how Anakin behaves.

Doesn’t the ”Mace and Yoda compete with Sidious” quote include Anakin too, though?

Sjuttiosju wrote:@The Found:

"Vader will become more powerful than either of us."

Him only becoming more powerful than Sheev later doesn't contradict the idea that he is equally powerful to him in the present, as confirmed by Lucas.

"You need to be Mace or Yoda to fight the Emperor."

Probably because Anakin is uniquely psychologically vulnerable where Sids is concerned. Doesn't mean he can't overwhelm Yoda due to his parity with Sheev in pure power.

"Strong enough to face this Lord Sidious, you will never be/you are not."

In reference to Kenobi, who only manages to defeat Anakin as a result of the latters arrogance, and only holds for so long against his onslaught due to prior knowledge of how Anakin fights and how Anakin behaves.

Occam's Razor would suggest he's less powerful rather than arbitrarily equal to both. Anakin's already more powerful than both in terms of raw power but needs to "complete his training."

Proof for Anakin being uniquely psychologically weakened vs Sheev in a fight? He had no issues with Dooku and Vaderkin expressed a readiness to kill Sheev at the nearest opportunity. He only ran into issues with Kenobi due to their familiarity.

Yes, the point is Obi-Wan has zero chance of defeating Sheev, because he lacks the power, but he at least has enough power to plausibly defeat Vader.

Seturna wrote:Doesn’t the ”Mace and Yoda compete with Sidious” quote include Anakin too, though?

That's a good point. It doesn't even say defeat, it says "compete."

It seems weird that in the context of power levels Lucas would be making unspoken concessions for Anakin's "unique mental vulnerability" against Sheev. Seems much more likely that indeed, only Mace and Yoda can compete with Sheev, whereas Anakin much like Kenobi has no shot.

@The Found:

Occam's Razor would suggest he's less powerful rather than arbitrarily equal to both.

How is it "abitrary" to assign him a position of equality based on Lucas's word, when nothing about the statement you posted semantically necessitates that Anakin be less powerful than either? Moreover, even if you were semantically correct Sheev's musings would simply be outweighed by George's sentiments on the subject.

Anakin's already more powerful than both in terms of raw power but needs to "complete his training."

Proof Anakin is lacking in mastery/ability to manifest his power compared to either of them?

Proof for Anakin being uniquely psychologically weakened vs Sheev in a fight? He had no issues with Dooku and Vaderkin expressed a readiness to kill Sheev at the nearest opportunity.

Anakin did actually have issues with Dooku though. It was only through Sheev's encouragement that he managed to enter a state in which he could defeat him, after being thrown off by his taunts. Given this it's hardly unlikely that Anakin could be psychologically vulnerable when confronting the man who has spent years manipulating and grooming him, especially considering his mental state is as fragile as glass, per Nick. As far as his plans are concerned, Vader's belief that he could kill Sheev is just that... his own opinion. There's no evidence he could match up to what Sheev can dish out psychologically.

Yes, the point is Obi-Wan has zero chance of defeating Sheev, because he lacks the power, but he at least has enough power to plausibly defeat Vader.

Which is due to additional advantages such as his knowledge of both Anakin's behaviour and fighting style... neither of which he has against Sheev, so comparisons with Kenobi don't work.

@The Found:

It seems weird that in the context of power levels Lucas would be making unspoken concessions for Anakin's "unique mental vulnerability" against Sheev. Seems much more likely that indeed, only Mace and Yoda can compete with Sheev, whereas Anakin much like Kenobi has no shot.

It's also possible that George went back on it, as indicated by both the tier system and him saying Skywalker and Sidious are equals in power later. I'm just looking for reconciliation here.

Anakin steps on him

Proof Lucas has Vader equal to Sheev? Since thats what your entire counter to the quote is predicated on.

I mean it's literally in the movie, dude. That's why he's Sheev's apprentice. He subjects himself to further training. Hence Sheev's quote. Besides, you've just spent all this time talking about how he couldn't fully bring his power to bear against Dooku without encouragement and how he apparently can't set aside his thoughts about Sheev just to fight him, so per your own logic his mental and emotional control is still sub par.

In any case, as far as that quote is concerned, the burden of proof lies with you to prove that Anakin can compete with Sheev.

I actually don't care if you think something is "hardly unlikely", what I was after was proof. Since we both know there's none lets say you concede the point and we save time.

Sure, there are factors aside from power involved, but you're dodging the point. It's neither here nor there when Yoda is talking exclusively about power. There's no way for any of them to have the level of foresight we have OOU to know how all of the various factors will play out and its a pure assumption on your part to suggest Yoda has them all worked out. All Yoda knows for certain is Kenobi has absolutely zero chance against Sidious just because of a power difference. Whereas he at least has a slim chance against Vader.

I'm purposely not using both Yoda and Sheev's supremacy quotes for the time being btw. Including those in the RotS novel itself.

I'll respond tonight. I should be focusing on school work right now lmao.

Some thoughts here:

-In the highest form of SW canon (the films) Dooku's taunts empower Anakin and allow him to win the fight. Anakin never gets psychologically unbalanced, and Sheev never helps him recover.

-On top of that, I don't see why the "compete" quote is talking about Sheev psychologically unbalancing Anakin when the context is specifically why Sidious defeated the B-Team so easily - a pure power feat. The inference seems to be "no one else is on that level besides these people".

-Palpatine's comments on Anakin, as has been pointed out, are not mutually exclusive with Anakin being = Sheev. I don't see how Occam's razor favours the case for the quote meaning Anakin is inferior here, as I don't see what extra assumptions are involved in saying Anakin = Sheev, especially when the vast majority of evidence points that way (e.g. Lucas).

-Lucas has stated that when Anakin received his injuries: "From then on he wasn't as strong as The Emperor..." - meaning prior to receiving them he was "as strong" as Sidious, making the idea that Anakin is not on the two titans level suspect.

-Lucas has Anakin as a tier 9, on par with Yoda and Sidious, again, making the idea that Anakin is not on the two titans level suspect.

-Regardless of my earlier comments disagreeing with the explanations for ignoring "compete" quote, I don't buy it. The quote clearly doesn't gel with the above (Anakin is a tier 9/"as strong as The Emperor", but can't compete with Sidious?), and fortunately, there's an easy explanation for it which can be discovered by simply looking at the rest of the quote: "'You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor,' Lucas says. 'If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor.'" Anakin is mentioned right after, meaning he's not included in the prior statement. And it can't just be said that "well, Anakin can only do it after Revenge of the Sith, not right now, that's what the quote is saying" because the statement isn't "you have to be as strong as Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious", it's "you have to be one of these 3 characters", and Anakin is listed as one right after (even if it is in a future context) which would be contradictory to the quote if it were saying he couldn't compete with Sidious prior. Anakin is one of these 3 characters, but he also isn't... right... Anyway, as to why Lucas would reference Anakin in a future context if he didn't mean interpretation proposed, it must be considered that Lucas isn't a VS debater: he's not going to bother considering some theoretical present matchup between Anakin and Sidious that would never happen, it should be obvious Lucas when referencing Anakin vs Sidious would only refer to the time where they actually would likely fight (i.e. after ROTS). On the other hand, Mace and Yoda are mentioned in the present, because of the fact that they actually fight Sidious within the events of the movie.

-The Kenobi comparison doesn't work when Kenobi has unique advantages to help him against Anakin that he doesn't against Sidious.

-Anakin probably has more supremacy quotes than Yoda (whose don't even matter after Anakin joins the Dark Side anyway), and Sheev's at best mean he can take out Mustafar Anakin (even then, you can perhaps argue a contradiction with Lucas), not KFV who has considerably greater focus and control.

Anakin can be a tier 9 (which is only a saber ranking, doesn't even account for other Force powers) and still be inferior to Sheev given that there can still be huge differences within Gillard's tiers. Since we're sucking off Gillard's tiers so much why don't you factor in all of the quotes about how Anakin reaching tier 9 is a "cheat" and that he's not "mentally" there, meanwhile Yoda and Sidious are? As for the "From then on" quote, it's referring to his potential. I'm pretty sure it's part of the 80% of Sidious quote. So no, neither of those quotes contradict anything I've pointed out. As for not understanding how Occam's Razor works, it's a more simple inference to say Anakin is weaker than Sidious than to assume he's a perfect equal for him. You need to make a greater leap to say that the quote is denoting parity than to say it's denoting inferiority.

it should be obvious Lucas when referencing Anakin vs Sidious would only refer to the time where they actually would likely fight (i.e. after ROTS).

Yeah, no shit Sherlock, hence "Vader will become more powerful than either of us." Since you're appealing to authorial intent why not choose to factor in Lucas' actual writing instead of cherry picking sections of interviews. And like I said earlier, since that future context would presumably be after Anakin was "mentally" a tier 9 after completing his training or otherwise gets there - it's pretty obvious that until such a time comes he can't truly compete with Sheev.

-The Kenobi comparison doesn't work when Kenobi has unique advantages to help him against Anakin that he doesn't against Sidious.

It does when the comparison is only being made on the basis of power. Yoda doesn't say "well Anakin and Sidious are both too powerful for you to ever defeat but due to a cocktail of unique circumstantial factors you have a chance against Vader", that's you weirdly putting words in Yoda's mouth. Yoda simply says that Kenobi is not powerful enough to face Sidious. So he sends him after Vader instead.

Still Yoda

Yoda, Anakin is mentally only a tier 7, which Yoda would take advantage of if he needed to.