Exar Kun vs Novel Vitiate

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:

Azronger wrote:Unlike Revan, Kun would be boosted by the same nexus that Vitiate is amplified by. Therefore it's impossible to judge this fight as Malak only scales over normal Kun, not a hypothetical, Dromund Kaas-amped Kun.

You stake the claim Revan would not be boosted by the nexus ala Exar Kun. Why is that the case? You and I both know it's stated in the novel that Revan is able to draw on the dark side for strength:

Source: Star Wars The Old Republic - Revan wrote:He had learned to balance on the knife-edge between them, drawing on both the light and dark sides for strength.

At absolute worst, Revan is operating at base levels, but I don't see why he wouldn't be amped. A dark side nexus is an unnatural concentration of dark side energy, energy that can be drawn on to bolster one's power. The fact that Revan has no qualms drawing on the dark side for strength means he would be opening himself up to the energy freely, unlike Jedi who fear falling to the dark side and close themselves off from it, allowing it to weigh down on them and suppress their connection to the force. People act like Revan has 50 points of light side energy and 50 points of dark side energy, and he would lose 5 light side points on the nexus, but gain 5 dark side points. I think it's more accurate to say that Revan existing "on the knife edge between" the light and dark sides allows him to draw on either one or both simultaneously (like against Vitiate) depending on the situation. I don't see why Revan would intentionally weaken himself and choose not to bolster his powers by drawing on the energies of the nexus, especially while facing his most hated enemy and having no issue drawing on such power.

Even if we assume that Revan is operating at base levels, your argument is intellectually dishonest at best. While technically you're right in that we can't know with 100% certainty that Kaas amped Kun would not be more powerful than Novel Vitiate, the idea that we can't judge which is more likely between:

A: Vitiate wins/stomps Kun into the dirt.

B: The Kaas nexus amps Kun to the point that he would rival or exceed the power Vitiate wields on the nexus, or at least would defeat Vitiate in a fight for a majority, despite the absolutely gargantuan gap between Vitiate and normal!Kun, such that Novel Vitiate > Novel Revan >/>> KOTOR Revan >> SF Malak >>> normal!Kun.

is asinine, and you know it. In uncertain situations, we are still able to operate with a range of probabilities and determine which is the most likely, and it's pretty clear which of the two is most likely, if not literally 100% certain, based on the evidence at hand. So unless you can increase the probability of B...

Vitiate stomps Kun into the dirt.

LadyKulvax wrote:Kun already knew he'd won and hence was playing with Ood from the onset. In typical fashion. He had no idea the metamorphosis was possible but despite Ood having such an immense advantage, Kun didn't suffer from it. You portray this as a major feat when actually this was Ood pulling off an act of severe desperation.

You're claiming that Kun face-tanking Ood's attack is a 'laugh-worthy' assumption whilst you're using a feat for Vitiate that occurs off-screen. Pot meet kettle.

Ood's attack being centered on Kun specifically doesn't mean it lacks destructive potency, it merely means the majority of the power was directed on him.

Fact is, Ood out of desperation underwent hid metamorphosis and attacked an off-guard Kun with power he had drawn from the core of Ossus. Which is exactly what he does to summon a Force shield to tank the incoming supernova waves when there was destruction on a massive scale.

You're trying to appeal to astrophysical locale when it is clear that the supernova waves hit Ossus directly and literally ripped the planet open:

Chronicles of the Old Republic wrote:The shockwave burst apart across the galaxy, reaching the world of Ossus and rupturing it, destroying the Jedi library and thousands of teachings and artifacts. The Jedi were in disarray.

That Ood's shield wasn't instantly ripped apart and him reduced to ash, is insanely impressive by itself. But Ood did far more than that. He tanked the ten consecutive supernova waves whilst the planet was nearly destroyed and then tanked what would've been essentially endless radiation from the waves afterwards. It's only until centuries later that we see Ossus return to any sort of liveable state.

Simply put, Ossus was strong enough in the living Force that it mitigated the waves that destroyed entire planets around it and destroyed whole other systems. Ood was drawing on this energy source to shield himself as the power of the waves that got through ruptured the surface of the planet.

The same power was incapable of seriously injuring or debilitating Kun at all. Kun gets much more powerful after this occurs.

These are levels of power we do not see Vitiate displaying until centuries later.

Exar Kun still wins.

The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side.

Taken from SWTOR: Codex Entry: The Emperor's Fallen Jedi (Knight).

All holocrons are based on a complex yet elegant technology: a lattice of organic crystals woven together at a microscopic level. The crystal lattice can store vast amounts of information, as well as replicate the appearance and personality of the holocron's creator as a gatekeeper who will guide students in their training.

In his youth, Valkorion--then known as Tenebrae--discovered a way to twist and pervert the lattice so it could capture the spirit of powerful Force users, locking them in a metaphysical cage. He used the weapon on Dramath, his tyrannical father, and trapped him inside the holocron for centuries.

But the same corrupted technology Valkorion used to vanquish his father could also be turned against him, permanently imprisoning his immortal spirit... or obliterating it from existence.

Taken from SWTOR: Codex Entry: Dramath's Holocron

Lord Vitiate returned to his homeworld while rest of the Sith Empire waged the Great Hyperspace War against the Republic. When the hasty Sith offensive ended in failure, the Empire collapsed - but Lord Vitiate was stronger than ever. He bid every surviving Sith to unite or die at the hands of Jedi. Eight thousand Sith Lords gathered on Medriaas and agreed to partake in a ritual that would bind the Sith together as an ultimate dark side weapon.

The ritual lasted ten days. Lord Vitiate orchestrated the sorcery and the planet Mediraas was consumed by the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see. When the ritual ended, Lord Vitiate emerged as the only survivor. The pain, energy, and suffering of every living entity on the planet fueled his power and would prolong his life for centuries. The lifeless planet of Mediraas became a void in the Force and was erased from history. From that moment forward, the world would forever be known as Nathema, birthplace of the one and only Sith Emperor.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

The Sith Empire's exile dragged on for centuries. While the military, navy, and Sith grew strong, the Emperor amassed unfathomable power and plotted a vengeful war against the Republic. He ruled from the privacy of his chambers in the Citadel, his life extended to virtual immortality by Sith sorcery.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

To Bane it seemed the teachings contained within the single Holocron surpassed those of the Academy’s entire archives. Revan had discovered many of the rituals of the ancient Sith, and as the Holocron’s avatar explained their nature and purpose, Bane could barely wrap his mind around their awesome potential. Some of the rituals were so terrible-so dangerous to attempt, even for a true Sith Master-that he doubted he would ever dare to use them. Yet he dutifully copied them down on sheaves of flimsi, preserving them so he could study them in greater depth later.

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

From the journal of Jedi Master Arlo Grennen during his investigation into the dark side's influence on Yavin 4:

"A few hundred years ago, the Jedi Order thought they could cleanse Yavin 4 of its dark influence. They were more aggressive then. I'm actually impressed. The Jedi bombarded the world from orbit with a destructive manifestation of light side power in the hopes it would free the moon from its dark embrace.

"The attacking Jedi destroyed much of the life on Yavin 4, which they later worked to restore to its previous state. They thought they'd won, that they'd removed the influence of the dark side. How wrong they were. The Massassi are still here. The dark side is still present. I would not be surprised if Exar Kun's spirit remains, waiting for someone--a Jedi like myself, perhaps--to find him...."

Taken from SWTOR: Codex Entry: The Dark Legacy of Yavin 4: Part IV

LadyKulvax wrote:Exar Kun is literally smiling at Ood whilst Ood admits he's no match whatsoever. This attempt at drawing conclusions to undermine Kun's performance against pre-meta Ood is about as effective as a sail boat without wind.

Ood was channeling literally the same power when he pulled off both of those feats. The attack on Kun and the subsequent summoning of a shield occur one after the other. There's no reason for them to be different levels of power. Your entire argument here is based on nothing but conjecture that isn't even in line with the actual source material. Ossus Ood and Exar Kun are depicted as equals, one fails to kill or even injure the other with the advantage of preparation vs no preparation whereas the other is incapable of surpassing the other's Force shield. This is not even factoring in that this is basically the strongest light side nexus in the history of the galaxy by this point, thus Exar Kun would have been hindered just like Galen Marek was on Felucia against Shaak Ti.

Exar Kun immediately afterwards gains massive knowledge sources which we know are outright capable of growing his power, before draining thousands of, dark-side nexus imbued and alchemically enhanced by Naga Sadow, Massassi. Something he does to achieve the power necessary to undergo a ritual to ascend as an incorporeal dark-side entity.

The codex entry's theories are largely redundant besides one. We know the astrophysical localé isn't true. So the point about the living Force energy of Ossus is. The point being, Ossus' living Force energy itself tanked the majority of the supernova waves. What it didn't tank was enough to destroy the surface of the planet, with Ood on it and shown to be directly hit. Ood drew from the core of Ossus prior to the attack to withstand the surface rupturing energies that Ossus itself couldn't.

You're claiming there is no basis for my contentions yet nothing you say to counter me is reflected whatsoever in the source material. Everything I've said thus far isn't even claims, it's stating the facts as shown in said source material.

Post-transformation Ood Bnar is demonstratably a hard equal of a nexus hindered Exar Kun prior to Kun returning to Yavin IV to get vastly more powerful.

Ood himself impresses me more than the Sith Emperor as of the second assassination attempt by Revan. He wields a feat of raw power that the Emperor has yet to depict in any way as of this point. Nevermind compared to an amped prime Exar Kun.

Bergmar wrote:Vitiate stomps. Kun is Nyriss level.