Exar Kun vs Novel Vitiate

Instead of Revan, Exar Kun bursts into Vitiate's throne room during the Revan novel.

Who wins?

Vitiate for sure.

For any reason other than the Malak quote?

What gear does Kun possess?

Vitiate has more raw power and indeed has a mastery of sorcery, but he doesn't apply sorcery in any meaningful way, Kun on the other hand can just summon Dark Tendrils which go straight through force barriers and I doubt Vitiate will be able to defend against that. Indeed Bame has the knowledge and power to use sith sorcery, yet Zannah went straight through his arm with little effort, same principle applies here, Vitiate has all the ingredients but he won't be able to use them to stop Kun's Haxx

HellfireUnit wrote:What gear does Kun possess?

His usual gear from TotJ, including his amulet.

I'd say Kun then.

Unlike Revan, Kun would be boosted by the same nexus that Vitiate is amplified by. Therefore it's impossible to judge this fight as Malak only scales over normal Kun, not a hypothetical, Dromund Kaas-amped Kun.

Vitiate wins.

Kun would be caught off guard by Scourge killing Meetra which would then allow Vitiate to blast him just like he did with Revan, and I'm not so sure that Kun could tank a blast like that since Revan (who had experience with the Emperor's power) got completely fried after getting hit twice. Even if he did tank it he would probably still experience some significant damage, and a hurt Kun vs Vitiate and Scourge is most certainly not in Kun's favor. This is assuming that Scourge experiences the same vision and betrays Meetra. It is hard to gauge how powerful Kun is here in relation to Revan though because of the reasons @Azronger highlighted.

Azronger wrote:Unlike Revan, Kun would be boosted by the same nexus that Vitiate is amplified by. Therefore it's impossible to judge this fight as Malak only scales over normal Kun, not a hypothetical, Dromund Kaas-amped Kun.

You stake the claim Revan would not be boosted by the nexus ala Exar Kun. Why is that the case? You and I both know it's stated in the novel that Revan is able to draw on the dark side for strength:

Source: Star Wars The Old Republic - Revan wrote:He had learned to balance on the knife-edge between them, drawing on both the light and dark sides for strength.

At absolute worst, Revan is operating at base levels, but I don't see why he wouldn't be amped. A dark side nexus is an unnatural concentration of dark side energy, energy that can be drawn on to bolster one's power. The fact that Revan has no qualms drawing on the dark side for strength means he would be opening himself up to the energy freely, unlike Jedi who fear falling to the dark side and close themselves off from it, allowing it to weigh down on them and suppress their connection to the force. People act like Revan has 50 points of light side energy and 50 points of dark side energy, and he would lose 5 light side points on the nexus, but gain 5 dark side points. I think it's more accurate to say that Revan existing "on the knife edge between" the light and dark sides allows him to draw on either one or both simultaneously (like against Vitiate) depending on the situation. I don't see why Revan would intentionally weaken himself and choose not to bolster his powers by drawing on the energies of the nexus, especially while facing his most hated enemy and having no issue drawing on such power.

Even if we assume that Revan is operating at base levels, your argument is intellectually dishonest at best. While technically you're right in that we can't know with 100% certainty that Kaas amped Kun would not be more powerful than Novel Vitiate, the idea that we can't judge which is more likely between:

A: Vitiate wins/stomps Kun into the dirt.

B: The Kaas nexus amps Kun to the point that he would rival or exceed the power Vitiate wields on the nexus, or at least would defeat Vitiate in a fight for a majority, despite the absolutely gargantuan gap between Vitiate and normal!Kun, such that Novel Vitiate > Novel Revan >/>> KOTOR Revan >> SF Malak >>> normal!Kun.

is asinine, and you know it. In uncertain situations, we are still able to operate with a range of probabilities and determine which is the most likely, and it's pretty clear which of the two is most likely, if not literally 100% certain, based on the evidence at hand. So unless you can increase the probability of B...

Vitiate stomps Kun into the dirt.

Just to offer a bit of resistance here...

SF Malak is "far more powerful" than Kun and Nadd, correct? And Kun in turn is also more powerful than Nadd. But we don't really know what "far more powerful" manifests as in a fight. I'm open to suggestions but one example I'm familiar with is Vong Krayt "far outstripping" all of the Sith in his order with regards to TK and Lightning. Yet, a much more powerful Reborn Krayt (who by his own word had his power multiplied and judging by his improved performance against a stronger Cade definitely grew a lot), didn't stomp Wyyrlok into the dirt. He couldn't even budge him with TK or injure him with lightning in the duration their fight lasted. Even though the gap in their power has extended even further beyond a quote stating Krayt "far outstrips" the guy. And before anyone says it, there's not a scrap of evidence suggesting that Wyyrlok had a boost in power of any kind, and even if he did grow, to suggest he grew so much that he mitigates the "far" distance between himself and Krayt and then Krayt's own growth additionally is extremely unlikely and has no evidence.

I guess another example I can think of is Anakin growing "vastly more powerful" between the end of TCW and RotS, yet in terms of his fight against Dooku, not a lot changed - and again, there's no evidence to suggest Dooku suddenly grew "vastly more powerful".

My point? It's entirely possible that even though Malak is "far more powerful" than Freedon Nadd, if they fought in a comic, by all appearances, they would be peers. And considering Kun is even more powerful than Nadd, he would have an even closer fight with Malak.

The next link in the chain is Revan vs SF Malak. There is surely a noticeable gap between them, given all the advantages Malak enjoyed on the SF and the gauntlet Revan had to run under the pressure of the nexus. But it doesn't mean that on neutral ground Revan would shitstomp Malak into the dirt. For all we know the fight on the SF could have left Revan in an extremely poor condition and was the hardest fight of his life, and a neutral ground fight would still be a close but more decisive win for him.

Then we have Vitiate vs Revan Reborn. I think Ant and Skillz would agree with me that Revan performed exceptionally well. Vitiate didn't exert any influence over Revan with TK, was caught by Revan's attacks, and won simply by overpowering him. Revan intercepted the lightning well enough initially but the fact that he was the weaker of the two means that the longer the lightning struggle goes on, the weaker he will become, and his ability to rebuke the lightning will decrease exponentially as damage and fatigue accumulate. There doesn't have to be a massive difference in power for Revan to be brought down by Vitiate's lightning the way he was. I'm not really sure how the nexus affected Revan. Maybe he could draw on the dark sided energy and repurpose it into light-sided attacks, or maybe it all cancels out. But it's entirely possible that Vitiate having homefield advantage at the seat of his power and being fully immersed in the dark side he could have had an edge.

So we have Vitiate >/= Revan >/= his KoToR self (thanks to regaining memories and being more versatile) > SF Malak > Exar Kun >/= Freedon Nadd

I don't really think you can argue with much certainty that Vitiate would stomp SF Malak, and given that you do not require a world of difference in an actual fight to still be called "far more powerful" than someone, it's hard to argue Vitiate stomps Kun into the dirt either.

I’m on vacation and on mobile so I can’t really discuss in-detail, but it’s important to note the extent Revan is better than Malak. Malak sent two armies (one of droids that could distinegrate Star Forge doors, and another of Dark jedi) and Bastila after Revan purely for the purpose of stalling him as he set up the Infinite Army, which he judged as an infinitely greater threat and representative of the full potency of the Forge’s capabilities. Immediately before Revan fought the Infinite Army, Malak still called him “an insignificant spec beneath my notice,” yet after the Infinite Army he said Revan was even stronger than Darth Revan and basically a worthy foe. Yet somehow Revan had enough in him to then beat Malak multiple times in a row as Malak replenishes himself.

((Whereas we give like prime Luke a pass after a poor performance because he slept on the wrong side of the bed.))

Vitiate.

Vitiate scales above him.

Yeah, it's Vitiate.

Exar Kun wins absolutely.

First the Malak shite:

Honestly, this is no greater a source than the blurb on the Darth Plagueis novel. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that a novel stated to be the most important Star Wars Legends material to date, is on a vastly higher level of authenticity than any Wizards article. Yet this novel wasn't just maintained by someone like Leland Chee, it went through the desk of none other than George Lucas before the stamp of approval. Yet Chee insists such statements are subjective in nature.

Now unless you want to go about arguing that a Wizards supplement has any form of greater viability to stand on its own two feet than the most carefully crafted work in all of Star Wars Expanded Universe history, then I imagine my point here is crystal clear.

Moreover, being published under a LucasFilm Ltd. banner does nothing to ascertain a level of infallibility on the point of those who wrote it. I say this because, if we're taking that into account, one must come to the conclusion that a quote in Jedi Academy depicting Kun as a Sidious tier threat, is of just as great an import as anything Cory wrote in his web supplement.

The quote itself isn't even definitive:

Darth Malak: An Expanded Universe Character From Knights of the Old Republic wrote:He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?

It says 'far greater powers'. Plural, not singular, unlike the beginning of the quote:

Darth Malak: An Expanded Universe Character From Knights of the Old Republic wrote:An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies.

What powers may they be? According to Darth Malak:

Darth Malak wrote:[size=34]"The Star Forge is more than just a space station. In some ways, it is like a living creature. It hungers. And it can feed on the dark side that is within all of us! Look around you, Revan. See the bodies? You should recognize them from the Academy. These are Jedi who fell when I attacked Dantooine. For all intents and purposes dead, except for one difference:I have not let them become one with the Force. Instead I have brought them here. The Star Forge corrupts what remains of their power and transfers the dark taint to me! You cannot beat me, Revan. Not here on the Star Forge. Not when I can draw upon the power of all these Jedi! And once you are beaten I will do the same to you. You will be trapped in a terrible existence between life and death, your power feeding me as I conquer the galaxy!"[/size]

The quote doesn't even refer to the Force, that's assumed to be what 'powers' mean, but given cybernetic enhancement is taken as a possible source for it. It may well be a physical prowess and invulnerability reference.

Worse yet, the quote itself has since been cut out of more recent Wizards of the Coast descriptions of Darth Malak:

Wizards of the Coast: Champions of the Force Preview 5 wrote:Darth Malak: Four thousand years before the creation of the Empire, the Republic faced many enemies and endured many wars. When the Mandalorians attacked the Republic, the Jedi were split -- join the fighting or stay out of it?
Ultimately, two Jedi ignored the will of the Jedi Council and plunged into battle. Revan and Malak led the Republic forces; the former provided clever tactics, and the latter was relentless and reckless in combat. The two pursued their enemies into the Unknown Regions. They returned as Sith Lords backed by a huge military force from an unknown source.
Darth Malak started as an apprentice but soon became the master. With the Sith forces at his command, he tore through the Republic, razing entire planets. His success was short lived, however, and he fell to an unexpected enemy.

Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide wrote:"Darth Malak was not always a model Dark Lord. He was once a compassionate Jedi Knight. In fact, Republic citizens' sufferings so move the young Jedi Alex Squinquargesimus during the Mandalorian Wars that he rebels-along with his good friend Revan-against the Jedi Council's decree of inaction. The young Jedi helps recruit thousands of Jedi to spearhead the war against he Mandalorians, and they drive back the invaders. Yet sweeping victories correspond all too frequently with proportionately devastating moral compromises. Day by day, Alex perceives himself sliding toward the dark side, but sees no alternative. The horrors of war are not a mystery, and he knew he would face this dilemma.
Just as he intends, Alek saves the galaxy. Victorious against the Mandalorians, he realizes that all his efforts may be for naught if a strong hand does not steer the galaxy. In actuality, besides himself, he knows he can trust only the soldiers he had fought alongside, because they are capable defenders. Sharing these thoughts with Revan, Alek finds his brother-in-arms agrees.
Now Alex understands the dark side. It is named from ignorance: the ignorance of never having killed, or never having ordered friends to their deaths, of always thinking today is your day to die-all for wards, unwilling to fight for their own safety-and ignorance of what it means to wield so much power. Revan, or course, understands completely.
After the Mandalorian Wars, Alek and Revan subsume themselves in Korriban and Malachor V's Sith occultism and use the Star Forge super weapon to churn out war material almost limitless. Alek then becomes Darth Malak of the remade Sith Empire, apprentice to Darth Revan. The Republic conquest initially goes well, but in time, Malak ses Lord Revan as soft, resulting in a tension that culminates in a lightsaber duel; Malak loses his lower jaw to Revan's blade, necessitating a metallic jaw guard. Returning the favor, Malak fires on Revan's flagship. Unaware that the Jedi have captured the traitor, Malak assumes the crown of ruling Dark Lord, inheriting the empire. With Admiral Saul Karath, Malak's fleet spreads terror and he cultivates Darth Bandon and Bastila Shan as his pupils. However, Malak faces Revan again, this time as a reconditioned Jedi. In the rematch, Malak's twisted dream of protecting the galaxy dies with him

Cory himself explains what he meant by 'powers far greater' than Kun and Nadd, definitely not muddying the waters of interpretation here:

Cory Herndon on Twitter wrote:"I think my thoughts at the time were that Malak was in a position to, with Revan, conquer the Republic, and therefore was the most powerful. And I was *definitely* thinking that the Star Forge's power, both in terms of being able to spit out ships and perhaps having a Dark Side connection made him clearly one of the most powerful Sith in history."

He isn't even saying Malak's more powerful in the Force, but his standing in terms of military strength, ability to conquer the Republic, and the Star Forge's possible dark side connections made him one of the most powerful Sith ever.

If that's the best that the Malak brigade has, then I'm afraid it's woefully inadequate. No, Vitiate does not scale from Exar Kun. Now the fun can begin.

Well, this is the only thing I could agree with Kulvax I guess. Good arguement.

Vitiate ashes him in an eye-blink

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:

Azronger wrote:Unlike Revan, Kun would be boosted by the same nexus that Vitiate is amplified by. Therefore it's impossible to judge this fight as Malak only scales over normal Kun, not a hypothetical, Dromund Kaas-amped Kun.

You stake the claim Revan would not be boosted by the nexus ala Exar Kun. Why is that the case? You and I both know it's stated in the novel that Revan is able to draw on the dark side for strength:

Source: Star Wars The Old Republic - Revan wrote:He had learned to balance on the knife-edge between them, drawing on both the light and dark sides for strength.

At absolute worst, Revan is operating at base levels, but I don't see why he wouldn't be amped. A dark side nexus is an unnatural concentration of dark side energy, energy that can be drawn on to bolster one's power. The fact that Revan has no qualms drawing on the dark side for strength means he would be opening himself up to the energy freely, unlike Jedi who fear falling to the dark side and close themselves off from it, allowing it to weigh down on them and suppress their connection to the force. People act like Revan has 50 points of light side energy and 50 points of dark side energy, and he would lose 5 light side points on the nexus, but gain 5 dark side points. I think it's more accurate to say that Revan existing "on the knife edge between" the light and dark sides allows him to draw on either one or both simultaneously (like against Vitiate) depending on the situation. I don't see why Revan would intentionally weaken himself and choose not to bolster his powers by drawing on the energies of the nexus, especially while facing his most hated enemy and having no issue drawing on such power.

Sure, Revan draws on the dark side for power, but he does so equally for the light side. We don't know how Force alignments really work. Are there two pools of energy, one for the light and one for the dark, which are added to or subtracted from and drawn from separately depending on one's alignment in the Force? Or is there just a single pool which is a mixture of light and dark energies in varying quantities, representing the person's net alignment? If it's the former, you might have a case for Revan's dark side power being amped to the same degree as Vitiate's, although to the detriment of his ability to draw on the light side. If it's the latter, then Revan would have been operating at base strength (since he's neutral, a dark side nexus wouldn't affect him one way or the other) while Vitiate would have been amped, which would make it impossible to gauge how strong the latter is on neutral ground.

Revan, though, does state his ability to see he future is clouded on Dromund Kaas. This was a phenomenon prevalent during the Prequel Trilogy when all the Jedi - distinctly light side users - had their ability to see into the future diminished by the imbalance in the Force perpetrated and maintained by Darth Sidious. Conversely, Darth Traya  was able to channel the dark side energies of Malachor V to bolster her ability to gaze into the future.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0SI8Z6lpiw&t=35

There was another long period of silence before Scourge asked another question. “Have you had any visions of what will happen when we face the Emperor?”

“No,” Revan said. “The dark side obscures my sight. We are walking into a time and place of shadows, and I cannot promise you that we will ever come out.”


I'd say this supports the single pool theory. Traya at that point is probably more on the dark side than the light side, so if Revan could have channeled the dark side independently from the light, his foresight wouldn't have been impaired but amplified like it was with Traya. Based on that, I'd say it's more likely that Revan can only draw on the totality of his Force reserves, which are a mixture of both dark side light, rather than cherry-pick whether he wants to draw on the dark side or the light side independently. His alignment, while mostly neutral, might even lean more towards the light consider how his foresight was obscured. Against Vitiate, he was around his base level but probably weaker to a small degree.

Even if we assume that Revan is operating at base levels, your argument is intellectually dishonest at best. While technically you're right in that we can't know with 100% certainty that Kaas amped Kun would not be more powerful than Novel Vitiate, the idea that we can't judge which is more likely between:

A: Vitiate wins/stomps Kun into the dirt.

B: The Kaas nexus amps Kun to the point that he would rival or exceed the power Vitiate wields on the nexus, or at least would defeat Vitiate in a fight for a majority, despite the absolutely gargantuan gap between Vitiate and normal!Kun, such that Novel Vitiate > Novel Revan >/>> KOTOR Revan >> SF Malak >>> normal!Kun.

is asinine, and you know it. In uncertain situations, we are still able to operate with a range of probabilities and determine which is the most likely, and it's pretty clear which of the two is most likely, if not literally 100% certain, based on the evidence at hand. So unless you can increase the probability of B...

Vitiate stomps Kun into the dirt.

I don't like when I'm called intellectually dishonest when I'm not acting that way. Yes, I agree that almost nothing in Star Wars is definitive and we are left with probabilities, but you presented no evidence for option A being more probable than option B, and just insulted the integrity of my argument.

Fact is we don't know how potent the Kaas nexus is, much less the Citadel nexus, so assuming it's weak with no evidence is what's asinine here. Even then, based on the reasoning ILS put forth, I'm gaining confidence in Kun's ability to take this. Consider: Revan and Vitiate were very close when the former was hindered to a slight degree and Vitiate was unequivocally amped. Vitiate had to supercharge his telekinesis and unleash it at the last moment, yet all it did was hurl Revan through the air with the Jedi rolling with the blast mid-air to land on his feet and begin his advance again - in short, it did no damage and only served to put distance between the two. The text also explicitly states Vitiate requires "much of his strength" to try to telepathically influence Revan, and swtor.com credits Revan's ability to resist him to his power - so if their mental war is any indication, the two are remarkably close to one another even when Vitiate spends all his time on Dromund Kaas or Zakuul and had the assistance of the Dread Masters. And in their ultimate clash of energies, Revan only suffered third degree burns from lightning that was "infinitely more powerful" than Darth Nyriss', which could incinerate the Jedi Exile and Lord Scourge, meaning Revan negated almost all of Vitiate's power with his own - then add in the facts that Vitiate began to charge his energies sooner than Revan did and would thus have been able to bring more power to bear, and was able to actively draw on the dark side nexus to augment himself further (we know that Force users get passively amped by a nexus of their respective alignment but can also actively draw on the nexus for additional strength), and it's very possible he would have been unable to overwhelm Revan if the aforementioned advantages hadn't been present. So given how triple-amped Vitiate (Kaas nexus + Citadel nexus + actively drawing extra strength from the nexus) was almost equaled by a hindered Revan, I'm confident in saying that on neutral ground, Revan would have been the superior combatant and probably outright the more powerful of the two.

Now add in what ILS said. There's no guarantee Revan on neutral ground would have stomped Malak without resistance. In fact, the Chronicles of the Old Republic web article describes their duel in the context of the dark side ending as "a long and vicious battle" which Revan had to "Recover" from - and again, that's in the context of the dark side ending, so they would effectively have been on neutral ground, and the prior gauntlet Revan had to run through would also not have been as intense since he would not have been hindered by the nexus.



So yes, Malak still has "far greater" power than Exar Kun, but as ILS explained, that by no means constitutes a stomp, or even near a stomp. With non-amped Vitiate being beneath Revan in all likelihood, how certain is it really that he could effortlessly destroy Kun in a fight? Heck, we have statements from only 40 or 50 years prior to the Revan novel proclaiming Kun the most powerful Sith in the galaxy before his prime, and given the snail's pace at which Vitiate grows, am I being unreasonable in thinking that Kun after gaining "tremendous power," could very well be comparable to novel Vitiate on neutral ground? Then we factor in his amulets, which enhance his telekinetic abilities and feature Force blasts that multiply his rage "a thousand times, then a hundred thousand times," and "With every pulse of his anger, the amulet doubles the power of its discharge," and I don't think Vitiate would fare nearly as well as he did against Revan if it came down to a clash of energy attacks.

@Azronger:

There's no guarantee Revan on neutral ground would have stomped Malak without resistance. In fact, the Chronicles of the Old Republic web article describes their duel in the context of the dark side ending as "a long and vicious battle" which Revan had to "Recover" from - and again, that's in the context of the dark side ending, so they would effectively have been on neutral ground, and the prior gauntlet Revan had to run through would also not have been as intense since he would not have been hindered by the nexus.

?? That's non-canon. You can't argue some hypothetical N-Canon alternative without some appeal to author intent, but who cares about the intent of the Chronicles writer? And even within that context, Malak had a direct link with the Star Forge's sentience which funneled power from the Jedi juiceboxes into him -- dark Revan didn't. Moreover, you're assuming dark Revan and KOTOR Revan would be equally powerful, which I don't think is necessarily true given KOTOR Revan's whole balance of the Force and newfound enlightenment shenanigans. At best, you can say that the fight between KOTOR Revan and Malak was a "long and vicious" fight, which I agree to and have on my respect thread. But, again, that's in large part due to prior battles and Malak's constant rejuvenation.

He isn't even saying Malak's more powerful in the Force, but his standing in terms of military strength, ability to conquer the Republic, and the Star Forge's possible dark side connections made him one of the most powerful Sith ever.

That was clearly not his intent at the time when he wrote the quote given that it references his fucking metal jaw as the source of the "powers far greater" than Kun or Nadd. Is his metal jaw somehow able to mass create ships and cannons which will help him conquer the galaxy? I don't think so... the quote is clearly referring to personal power.

It says it would be too simple an explanation, nor is Rakatan technology anything like normal technology. The reference is the Star Forge, which is clearly capable of all those things. You've not proven it is a reference to personal power whatsoever.

@LadyKulvax

It says it would be too simple an explanation, nor is Rakatan technology anything like normal technology.

Correction: It questions whether that would be too simple an explanation meaning that it's considering Malak's mask as an explanation for him having powers far greater than Nadd or Kun. If this was referring to the SF's militaristic might it wouldn't make any sense as Malak's metal jaw obviously can't be considered as the source for that.

The reference is the Star Forge, which is clearly capable of all those things. You've not proven it is a reference to personal power whatsoever.

I know what the quote is in reference to...

Vitiate blinks and Kun turns to ash.