Where to rank Vader ?

Trayus Marauder wrote:The poison may have weakened him to an extent but if his force capabilities are as phenomenal as you claim, then even a weakened Dooku would be able to oneshot a nightsister with no respectable feats. As for the second Ventress example, killing her was always the goal so surely if he could, he would just fry her to death with lightning rather than using lightning and then trying to get the kill with his saber. Just doesn't add up. I'll give you the Anakin one though.

Trayus Marauder wrote:My analysis of Sidious' expression is an observation of the primary source in order to draw a conclusion on the fight's progress and multiple stages.

Note I never said Maul and Sidious were equals. Maul landing hits was simply an indication that Maul is not totally out of Sidious' league. If the difference between the two was massive then Maul wouldn't be able to last as long as he did nor would he be able to make contact with Sidious.

Trayus Marauder wrote:If a quote is debunked by other sources then yeah, we can throw it away. I mean, it was a reach to begin with, suggesting that Dooku can essentially oneshot all below Yoda level.

Trayus Marauder wrote:You keep asking me to prove things when you throw around baseless claims like the fact that Sidious has to "amp up the slighest bit". Kinda rich wouldn't you say?

Trayus Marauder wrote:@Jake

Well, we are discussing Vader placements and Maul is pretty close via Lucas as well as other sources.

Trayus Marauder wrote:Is the Dooku lightning quote backed up by others of a similar nature or is it standalone?

Trayus Marauder wrote:I do appreciate the strawman you used on my analysis of the Maul vs Sidious duel by the way. Top notch execution.

Trayus Marauder wrote:The other sources have been covered throughout this thread. As for the Lucas quote:

"But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn’t what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

Kilius wrote:@Meatpants

The quote is debunked when Dooku himself survives the "only one as powerful as Yoda can survive" lightning and Dooku is factually less powerful unless you really want to go down that path.

Meatpants wrote:

Kilius wrote:@Meatpants

Are you actually arguing that the quote contradicts and debunks itself? You've reached a new low.

Pretty much. Quote says you have to be as powerful as Yoda do survive Dooku's lightning. Dooku is less powerful than Yoda and survives his own redirected lightning. Quote debunked. Pretty simple.

Trayus Marauder wrote:That quote doesn't convey the same message at all. The one you keep pushing indicates that Dooku oneshots all except Yoda tier opponents. The one you just gave now (and a bit before) shows Yoda having difficulty but does not rule out the possibility of weaker opponents than Yoda being able to deflect or at least tank it.

Trayus Marauder wrote:Have you not read my discussions with other members before you arrived? Plenty of evidence has been provided along with video breakdowns.

Trayus Marauder wrote:Please prove that the quote refers to the common ground between the three characters being subservient to Sidious rather than a rough tier list suggestion. For real though, he was subservient to Sidious while he was on Sidious/Yoda tier so clearly that's not the element that changed.

Trayus Marauder wrote:"Only a Jedi Master as powerful as Yoda could survive such an attack." Meaning only Yoda, Sidious and arguably Windu could survive a Force attack from Dooku.

That's directly from you.

Trayus Marauder wrote:So do you honestly expect me to cover all of the info again and basically copy paste all of the stuff on the thread purely for your benefit? You have to be trolling.

Trayus Marauder wrote:Lucas notes that he was as strong as Sidious but after the injury from Kenobi, he's like Dooku/Maul. Given that it's referring to strength, that can logically be interpreted as strength with the force/combat viability. Sure as hell makes more sense than your assumption that it refers to Vader being subservient when that's a consistent factor pre and post injuries.

Reynard (Ethanion) wrote:Personally have him below TPM Kenobi by a fair bit at this time, if Resurrection was canonical for sure my opinion of him would raise drastically. I think Vader is no higher than Savage Opress regardless though.

Trayus Marauder wrote:Well this section is irrelevant anyway. As Killius and I have pointed out, the quote debunks itself and other pieces of evidence debunk it.

Trayus Marauder wrote:"various threads" It's literally just this one but ok lol. Maybe try reading previous discussion before jumping into a debate next time

Trayus Marauder wrote:Well to use your counter, please prove it. My interpretation has been justified by the initial analysis of the quote in addition to the other arguments I've offered during the debate I was having before you came into the picture.

Trayus Marauder wrote:How is it ridiculous? You have yet to disprove Kilius' argument.

Trayus Marauder wrote:I never referred to another thread, simply posts within this one that are part of a discussion with another member. You could simply read that. Also, this idea that my argument has been "facial expressions and deleted scenes" is such a strawman. Seeing as you jumped into the discussion and addressed argument points mid-debate, I figured you would be aware of what I had written previously. Also, all of my arguments are real.

Trayus Marauder wrote:Well that's what I've been trying to accomplish from the beginning of my debate. Thus why I've been comparing with Dooku/Vader so much. Added evidence to make the possibility of Maul/Vader/Dooku being the same tier seem logical.

Yoda appears to have been similarly drawing on Vjun's energy, but that's a can of worms. Let's talk about a more direct power feat from Dooku from Geonosis, where "Only a Jedi Master as powerful as Yoda could survive such an attack." Meaning only Yoda, Sidious and arguably Windu could survive a Force attack from Dooku. Furthermore, "Dooku gave a little growl and thrust forth his hand, loosing a line of blue lightning at the diminutive Master. Yoda caught it in his own hand and turned it aside, but far from easily." I don't see any power feat from Maul that matches.

Blue lightning arced out of his fingertips and toward the tiny Jedi. The assault was relentless. Yet Yoda stood unfazed. “Much to learn you still have,” he said calmly.

Credit: Star Wars Attack of the Clones - Movie Storybook

Count Dooku hurls Force lightning at Yoda, but Yoda easily deflects the attack.

Credit: Attack of the Clones - Photo Comic

On Geonosis, Yoda's easy parrying and, indeed, handling of the Sith lightning Dooku hurled at him had come as a surprise.

Credit: Star Wars Labyrinth of Evil

He felt Dooku gathering power, and he bowed his head in shock and sorrow as he sensed the true source of the Count’s increased ability. An instant later, Dooku raised his hands and sent a stream of deadly Force lightning toward him.

   Yoda blocked the lightning automatically, grieved by this final evidence of Dooku’s change in allegiance. Only those who turned to the dark side of the Force misused their abilities so. This he had feared ever since Count Dooku left the Jedi Order, but only now was he certain. His old student had not just left the path of the Jedi; he had betrayed everything he had once stood for. He had joined the dark side. “Much to learn you still have,” Yoda told him.

   A startled expression crossed Dooku’s face at the utter failure of his attack.

Credit: Star Wars Attack of the Clones - Junior Novel

Seething, the Count ignited is lightsaber and charged. He attacked ferociously, but Yoda’s superior command of the Force prevented Dooku from landing a single blow. Finally, the Count slowed.

Then Yoda attacked. The small but powerful Jedi flew forward, his lightsaber a blur of light. Dooku did not stand a chance against his old Master’s magnificent lightsaber skills.

“Fought well you have, my old Padawan,” Yoda said when the Count retreated.

Credit:Attack of the Clones Movie Storybook

Dooku's lightsaber flashed in an elaborate salute. "Master Yoda, now we shall discover who is most powerful."

The Count flew across the space between them, his lightsaber raining blows on the small Jedi Master. Yoda did not give a centimeter. He stood beneath the storm, calmly deflecting blow after blow. As Dooku's fury increased, his strength failed, and his blows became less skillful.

Suddenly, Yoda attacked. His lightsaber was so fast that it seemed like a solid wall of light. Dooku cried out in amazement and stumbled.

"Powerful you have become," Yoda said. "I sense the dark side in you."

They crossed swords, and again Yoda mastered him easily.

"Fought well, you have, my old Padawan."

Count Dooku gasped for breath. "The battle is far from over. This is only the beginning."

Credit: Attack of the Clones Mighty Chronicles

Count Dooku whirls his lightsaber in a formal salue. Yoda draws his lightsaber. Suddenly, Count Dooku charges across the space at YODA. He rains down blows upon the tiny figure. YODA doesn't budge an inch. For the first part of the contest, he parries every cut and thrust that Dooku aims. Nothing the great swordsman tries gets through. His energy drains. His strokes become feebler, slower.

YODA attacks! He flies forward. COUNT DOOKU is forced to retreat. Words are insufficient to describe the range and skill of Yoda's speed and swordplay. His lightsaber his a humming blur of light. Finally, their blades cross and the fighting slows.

Credit: Attack of the Clones Final Script

Count Dooku immediately unleashes his finest assault yet on Yoda. As expert as Dooku's attacks are, none get past the Jedi Master's defenses. With each failed thrust, Dooku's strength weakens as he realizes he is not the most powerful Jedi after all.

Sensing his opponent's fatigue, Yoda at last reveals why he is considered the most powerful of the Jedi. Unable to keep pace with Yoda's awesome attack, Dooku is forced back!

Realizing he is no match for Yoda, Dooku makes for his ship.

Credit: Attack of the Clones Comic

Yoda drew his lightsaber and answered the salute. In contests, he had no interest, but in stopping Count Dooku, he had a great deal of interest indeed. And Dooku had left him no other choice.

Count Dooku charged forward. Yoda sighed. Nothing has he learned. Nothing has he remembered. He closed his eyes, bowed his head, and felt the Force that bound all things, even himself and the Count. His lightsaber moved effortlessly, flowing with the Force to find the balance point between them and block Dooku’s every stroke. He did not even have to step back.

The Count’s attack grew more desperate, to no avail. Breathing hard, he backed away, but Yoda did not pursue him. To stop Dooku was all that was necessary, and he could not pass Yoda to reach his Solar Sailer.

The Count slowed once more, then stopped, his blade braced against Yoda’s. Yoda could feel him drawing on the dark side in an attempt to press Yoda’s weapon back, but the dark side was only an easier path, not a stronger one. Backed by the full power of the true Force, Yoda’s lightsaber was unmovable.

“Fought well, you have, my old Padawan,” Yoda said gently, giving him the truth, though he knew that the Count would not want to hear it. Count Dooku had never been happy to merely fight well; the best he must be, always. But not this time.

Credit: Attack of the Clones Junior Novel

Ultimately, it came down to a battle of lightsabers. Dooku drew his weapon and leapt to attack. Yoda pushed back his cloak and called his own lightsaber to his hand. With a shout, Yoda leapt into battle in a dizzying flurry of motion.

Count Dooku used a mix of subtle blade engagements and crashing blows. Yoda used the force of Dooku’s attacks to propel his own leaping, spinning assault. Though Dooku was recognized as a master with a lightsaber, Yoda was simply never where the Count’s blade struck. The first exchange as the combatants paused, blades lock.

Yoda pushed up a gear, shifting Dooku’s blade away and launching a frightening attack, his shrill battle-cry echoing around the chamber. Yoda’s tumbling leaps now changed direct in midair as he rained blows down on a frantically defending Dooku.

Barely showing the stress of battle, Yoda drew Dooku into outstretching and unbalancing himself, before he, once again, locked lightsabers with his former Padawan.

Count Dooku was many things, but he was no fool. Knowing he was bested and facing imminent defeat and death if the conflict continued, Dooku reached out with the Force and crushed the base of a nearby piece of heavy machinery.

Credit: Fact Files 51

Yoda drew his lightsaber and answered the salute. In contests, he had no interest, but in stopping Count Dooku, he had a great deal of interest indeed. And Dooku had left him no other choice.

Count Dooku charged forward. Yoda sighed. Nothing has he learned. Nothing has he remembered. He closed his eyes, bowed his head, and felt the Force that bound all things, even himself and the Count. His lightsaber moved effortlessly, flowing with the Force to find the balance point between them and block Dooku’s every stroke. He did not even have to step back.

The Count’s attack grew more desperate, to no avail. Breathing hard, he backed away, but Yoda did not pursue him. To stop Dooku was all that was necessary, and he could not pass Yoda to reach his Solar Sailer.

The Count slowed once more, then stopped, his blade braced against Yoda’s. Yoda could feel him drawing on the dark side in an attempt to press Yoda’s weapon back, but the dark side was only an easier path, not a stronger one. Backed by the full power of the true Force, Yoda’s lightsaber was unmovable.

“Fought well, you have, my old Padawan,” Yoda said gently, giving him the truth, though he knew that the Count would not want to hear it. Count Dooku had never been happy to merely fight well; the best he must be, always. But not this time.

Credit: Attack of the Clones Junior Novel

Ultimately, it came down to a battle of lightsabers. Dooku drew his weapon and leapt to attack. Yoda pushed back his cloak and called his own lightsaber to his hand. With a shout, Yoda leapt into battle in a dizzying flurry of motion.

Count Dooku used a mix of subtle blade engagements and crashing blows. Yoda used the force of Dooku’s attacks to propel his own leaping, spinning assault. Though Dooku was recognized as a master with a lightsaber, Yoda was simply never where the Count’s blade struck. The first exchange as the combatants paused, blades lock.

Yoda pushed up a gear, shifting Dooku’s blade away and launching a frightening attack, his shrill battle-cry echoing around the chamber. Yoda’s tumbling leaps now changed direct in midair as he rained blows down on a frantically defending Dooku.

Barely showing the stress of battle, Yoda drew Dooku into outstretching and unbalancing himself, before he, once again, locked lightsabers with his former Padawan.

Count Dooku was many things, but he was no fool. Knowing he was bested and facing imminent defeat and death if the conflict continued, Dooku reached out with the Force and crushed the base of a nearby piece of heavy machinery.

Credit: Fact Files 65

Let's talk about a more direct power feat from Dooku from Geonosis, where "Only a Jedi Master as powerful as Yoda could survive such an attack." Meaning only Yoda, Sidious and arguably Windu could survive a Force attack from Dooku.

What does Maul have that compares to Dooku giving Yoda a good fight while exhausted, and even disarming Yoda in one of their duels?

Since when does not being able to survive an attack mean one-shotted? Someone like Yaddle for example wouldn't get one shotted by Dooku, but she also wouldn't survive the attack, which is what the quote says. You literally just strawmanned my position. I never said someone other than Yoda tier would be insta-killed, only that they wouldn't survive, which is just me repeating what the quote says anyway.

Reynard (Ethanion) wrote:Personally have him below TPM Kenobi by a fair bit at this time, if Resurrection was canonical for sure my opinion of him would raise drastically. I think Vader is no higher than Savage Opress regardless though.

Reynard (Ethanion) wrote:Personally have him below TPM Kenobi by a fair bit at this time, if Resurrection was canonical for sure my opinion of him would raise drastically. I think Vader is no higher than Savage Opress regardless though.

LOTL wrote:Yeah, that really is scraping the bottom of the barrel. Lmfao at Yoda of all people drawing on the dark side. This is wrong though, Yoda states clearly that

LOTL wrote:Let's put the myth of Yoda struggling against Dooku's lightning aside first. Far more numbers of sources show Yoda actually deflecting Dooku's lightning easily:

LOTL wrote:Let's examine their fight in AoTC. There are 8 main accounts of the fight, and 7 of them all show Dooku being thoroughly outclassed:

Star Wars Attack of the Clones - Junior Novelization wrote:“Fought well, you have, my old Padawan,” Yoda said gently, giving him the truth [...]

LOTL wrote:No, no bro. You cannot engage in double standards here. Only a Jedi Master as powerful as Yoda can survive such an attack, is a clear indication that anyone weaker than Yoda "cannot" survive such an attack, meaning Mace Windu too is toast.

Let's go deep here. The quote indicates that it takes Yoda a great deal of energy to deflect Dooku's attacks to the extent that he only "survives" the attack. By this let us examine the feasible options that this points to:

Yoda survives that attack, not barely, but easily. In that case, I ask you, what's the point of the quote? If Yoda not only survives the attack but does so easily, it certainly contradicts the part that says that only someone as powerful as Yoda can survive the attack, meaning force users that are weaker but comparable to Yoda, like Mace too can survive the attack, rendering the quote really pointless by self contradiction.

Yoda barely survives the attack. It also indicates that anyone weaker than Yoda by even a bare margin is toast meaning Dooku is not only as powerful as Yoda he is even more so. If someone barely survives an attack by an opponent it is safe to say that the opponent is more powerful.

Note, barely surviving an attack is much more significant than barely deflecting it. The latter indicates that you must be comparable to your opponent, the former indicates that the opponent is more powerful than you. Force defenses are supposed to prevent the attack from so much as touching your body, the former indicates that Yoda's force defenses were not only breached, but also that the energy that managed to breach your force defenses almost killed you. That is a considerable leap and utter nonsense as far as the power level of Dooku goes

In any case, no matter the conclusion, Yoda can handle Dooku's lightning easily

LOTL wrote:Lmfao, let's not kid ourselves. Dooku "disarmed Yoda" by tagging him with lightning. No doubt, Dooku showing the battle technique and presence of mind to be able to tag someone like Yoda with lightning in the middle of battle is a great showing for him, it no more indicates parity with Yoda than Savage before being rage amped disarming Dooku indicates that he is comparable to Dooku or that it means anything:

LOTL wrote:it no more indicates parity with Yoda than Savage

LOTL wrote:Not to mention, we have a clear cut comparison as it is: Yoda being considerably hindered, is still noticeably better than Dooku that is considerably amped. Leading to a clear conclusion that Dooku is outclassed by him. This is in line with the vast number of primary accounts of the fight too supporting Dooku being outclassed against Yoda in AoTC, and unfortunately, outnumbered and retconned sources of Dooku's lightning pressuring Yoda are not enough to conclude that they are comparable. Now when I bring Sidious into the equation, but no problem, I'll give you time to recover before I move on to that

LOTL wrote:I am also pretty sure that ILS has said that there exists a source that states that Yoda only goes all out against Sidious in ROTS and not before. If such a thing is true, it lowers Dooku even more.

LOTL wrote:So, they would writhe in agony for 10 hours before dying? Exactly what are you contending here? That they would survive for a few minutes or seconds? That doesn't matter. Refer to my argument above.

Meatpants wrote:His argument in nonsensical. Yoda is deflecting Dooku's own lightning back at him, of course he can block it.