Plagueis vs Starkiller

I've literally written 1 post which he responded to. He can't exactly be ragdolling when the discussion has barely even started.

Grey ragdolling

Lol.

Grey ragdolling

Lol.

@Greysentinel365

His force reserves are never insinuated as running dry.

...

He shied away from both memory and contemplation. There was no point wasting energy on either when his very survival was at stake. How many days he had been down the pit he no longer knew, but in that time he had neither eaten nor slept. His enemy wasn't physical in the sense of a foe he could strike down or manipulate. It was himself-his fallible body, his weak mind, his faltering spirit. He would endure and emerge whole, or never emerge at all.

-TFU 2 Novelization

He notes that his very survival was at stake and was uncertain whether he would emerge from the pit. Given that Starkiller had previously been sustaining himself with the Force for 13 days it makes no sense for him to be worried about this as he has already proven his power is great enough to survive without food and sleep. The only way this does make sense is if Galen's reserves are finally running dry and he can no longer sustain himself which makes sense given the fact that the text notes he is shying away from both memory and contemplation as not to waste energy on either. If could recover his reserves at will there would be no reason for him to do so as he'd just be able to wave his hand and recover his reserves which basically means he could sustain himself indefinitely so wasting energy wouldn't be a problem.

I'm going to have to leave my home to go on a drive with my parents so I'll just post what I have and either finish responding this week or next week depending on the amount of time I have and the Wi-Fi where I'm going.

Grey ragdolling

dAmN GrEy ReAlLy OwNiNg Hp Rn

Yeah, GrEy iS RaGdOllInG.

So SI is > Starkiller?

@Kraytdies

Starkillers issues here stem from the isolation and memory flashes breaking his concentration and his spirit faltering specifically caused by his isolation. Uncertainty in oneself is a common cause of a faltering force connection. Starkillers isolation furthered this. Which then in turn caused his body to falter.

But once again, what you're not noting, is that the moment SK gets out of isolation, no mention of exhaustion, he's up and about. Blowing up rooms and collapsing towers with no effort. The moment his thoughts clear and he has a goal......... shock, it all disappears. In other words the isolation itself was the problem.

Now, I await further non-existent exhaustion next week. Have fun!

Grey ragdolling

Force Unleashed is just Starkiller wank material lets be honest

MP wrote:

I guess that means Grey oneshots SI

DoA wrote:

MP wrote:

I guess that means Grey oneshots SI

I'm gonna find you boi 

@Greysentinel365

Starkillers issues here stem from the isolation and memory flashes breaking his concentration and his spirit faltering specifically caused by his isolation. Uncertainty in oneself is a common cause of a faltering force connection. Starkillers isolation furthered this. Which then, in turn, caused his body to falter.

The memory flashes are never displayed as significantly hindering his abilities, and SK actually notes that for most of the time he could take no notice of them and that it was only in rare cases that he could no longer ignore them and attempted to piece together them together. Moreover, the fact that he could piece together the visions early in his meditations, yet could no longer afford the energy to do so at the end indicates energy depletion on Starkiller’s part indicating it’s not just solely physical weakness caused by lack of concentration.

As for his spirit faltering yes that is true, but (correct me if I’m wrong) I don’t recall it ever being attributed to his isolation, and after briefly skimming the passages I certainly couldn’t see anything indicating such. In fact, the only uncertainty on Starkiller’s part seems to be the fact that he’s close to death, which was caused by his energy depleting as I showed in my previous post and haven’t received any reply to (instead you’ve made up reasons for his terrible state at the start of the novel which aren’t supported by textual evidence). As far as I can tell, at best his faltering spirit worsened his already horrible condition and it certainly wasn’t the primary factor in his exhaustion here.

But once again, what you're not noting, is that the moment SK gets out of isolation, no mention of exhaustion, he's up and about.

Something not being mentioned doesn’t mean it isn’t there. Are we to discount Caedus’s ankle being crushed and kneecap being shattered before his duel with Jaina Solo in Legacy of the Force: Invincible, because the passage in question doesn’t mention those injuries and instead chooses to focus on his injured arm? Of course not.

Blowing up rooms and collapsing towers with no effort.

Well, given that he’s less exhausted than he was when he fought roughly equally with Darth Vader you’d expect him to be able to perform these rather mediocre feats without effort.

The moment his thoughts clear and he has a goal......... shock, it all disappears.

Lack of acknowledgment doesn’t mean it magically vanished lmao.

In other words the isolation itself was the problem.

This is so far entirely unsubstantiated by you.

Now, I await further non-existent exhaustion next week. Have fun!

And I await further mental gymnastics to suit your bias in your response.

False again. This is the passage of his awakening after the Salvation:

Any more exhaustion you would like to make up out of nowhere?

You are aware that the story of TFU isn’t displayed in a singular source right? Or did you conveniently forget, that there’s a game and comic as well?

Spoiler alert: I was referencing the game, which if you’d bothered to think after not finding anything in the novel you should have checked, rather than trying to make me look bad by pointing out there was nothing in the novel.

Anyway, here’s the evidence for his exhaustion: After destroying The Salvation, Galen is knocked out for an extended period of time (enough time to have a vision of his mother), and when he awakens despite his rest he struggles to stand, and then while travelling to Vader, strains when trying to lift a large ship, and is visibly tired after doing so. What’s the rebuttal to this exactly? That the ship showing is just an inconsistency, and no exhaustion was mentioned in the novel so therefore it wasn’t there? Give me a break.

Which isn't due to force reserves being inherently slow to recover. It had to do with

It is due to Force Reserves being slow to recover, though. I’ve literally provided the passage in previous threads we've discussed this in, and it directly notes that Luke requires certain conditions for his Force reserves to recover, and it’s not due to injuries on his part as you say below but I’ll get to that in a sec.

1. He had just fought fucking Abeloth.

This is entirely irrelevant. SK had just unleashed the totality of his Force reserves, in destroying The Salvation and feared it may kill him. Both feats were equally taxing for the respective Force Users.

Had been drained, brutalized, had a ceiling dropped on him etc etc etc.

2. Said injuries were the actual thing he was recovering from. Likewise continuing in spite of them is the problem.

They weren’t what he was recovering from, though. I’m really questioning how you came to this conclusion, as the novel says nothing of the sort:

“He felt weary. Well, wearier. That last fight on Almania had stolen a lot of his strength. Keeping himself going despite his injury had taken more. And now this. What he had sacrificed he would eventually regain, after rest and food and meditation, but for now he felt tired to his bones.”

It notes, “what he had sacrificed he would eventually regain,” as in the reserves he’d burned up fighting and trying to keep himself going despite his injuries are what he requires rest, food and meditation to recover from not the injuries themselves. All the injuries do (as noted by the passage itself), is cause him to burn up more reserves to keep going despite them. They are entirely irrelevant to Luke’s inability to recover his reserves.

3. It's just plain inconsistent.

This is entirely unsubstantiated.

In Dark nest The Joiner King, Luke undergoes an exertion of the force that literally Palpatine's him

But the thing to take note of, is that a tewnty minute rest trance is noted as being abnormally long

1. Starkiller didn’t have twenty minutes so this is honestly an irrelevancy.

2. The passage is talking about, Luke’s physical appearance not changing despite his 20 min long meditation. It says absolutely nothing about the pain he’s suffering from, and whether 20 minutes is a long time to recover from it.

Force exhaustion is almost always tied to physical injury. Maul has trouble recovering from Raxus due to physical injury, Kenobi shows exhaustion against Dooku due to being tortured and bloodied.

Yes, that’s because injuries cause Force Users to burn up more reserves, not because they stop Force Users from being able to recover from said exhaustion. Anyway, I thought you were arguing that all a Force User needs to do to recover from the exhaustion is open themselves up to the Force, but if that’s the case then how does physical injury at all stop them from recovering? It’s not as if physical injuries can stop a Force User from just opening him/herself up to the Force, and washing away their fatigue. How exactly do they factor in at all if this is the case?

Plus, it’s not as if Starkiller wasn’t physically injured. It’s noted that he gets hit multiple times in his fight with the clones, and he is knocked out after the destruction of The Salvation.

Except that's not how refilling force reserves work. You don't have to expend energy to regain it. You just open yourself to it.

Which is where meditation comes into play… I never claimed that was how refilling Force Reserves work just that one should not be able to deplete Force Energy to gain Force Energy hence why meditation, rest and food, etc are required just like in any natural healing/recovery process. My point was that them being Force Users doesn’t change a single thing about how they recover meaning that after exerting themselves heavily they should require extended periods of time to recover like any normal person.

If SK could do this so easily he would have done it any other time throughout the rest of the fight.

This is a strawman. I never claimed SK could do this “easily” merely that he could do it…

…Which is absolutely correct given that he literally did so in the passage provided.

You're also forgetting the context of the feat

The “context” is almost entirely made up on your part.

SK lost the lightsaber duel.

I’m sorry but what…?

I’m assuming this is what you’re referring to, “And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down,” but what exactly about it indicates Vader won? The fact that SK was forced onto the back foot, doesn’t mean shit. For example, Luke forces Vader back in ESB twice, Yoda forced Sidious back in ROTS, Anakin forced Dooku back in AOTC. Are any of these people superior to their opponents? Of course not (Anakin and Luke both lose their fights and Yoda and Sidious are stated to be equals). As for Vader raising his lightsaber to strike SK down, we know that’s what he intended to do, but given that SK managed to slip in a Force Lightning attack under his guard potent enough that Vader’s insulation couldn’t absorb it I very much doubt he would have been successful even if SK hadn’t tried to hit him with Force Lightning, and instead attempted to block his attack.

But notable here is that Vader was stiffened by his cybernetics. It wasn't that Vader was unable to react. That's what gave Starkiller his opening. The fact that after he stopped the attack Vader would be paralysed for a moment afterwards.

You’re not addressing anything. I never once said that Vader’s cybernetics didn’t hinder him, I simply pointed out that he has these cybernetics in any scenario, and thus SK can replicate this in any hypothetical encounter he has with Vader which I conveniently received no reply to…

It's also worth noting that SK required familiarity with Vader for this to work.

Lmao. You are aware that the reason Vader can stonewall SK so perfectly in the first place, is because of his knowledge on SK’s style:

Vader's defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time. He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now.

This is an advantage that works both ways so I don’t see why it should be brought up as “context” for why SK can hit Vader when it’s literally the reason that Vader can stonewall him in the first place.

Not really true.

Is is true, though. Vader’s armour has systems which mitigate heat (one of the main problems of Force Lightning), which greatly helps him tank it.

We have instances in the mythos of character taking lightning and continuing forward. Notably Jaden Korr, Luke, Kyle. Hell earlier in the novel (when he didn't have the insulation) Vader did it

Other characters taking lightning doesn’t mean Vader’s suit isn’t specially equipped to defend against lightning lmao.

In TFU one Vader was able to take lightning blasts as well.

Quote? Not that it particularly matters for the reasons previously specified.

If this were true Dooku have killed Anakin there and then.

You’re bullshitting if you don’t think Dooku could have killed Anakin in that scenario. He literally had a defenceless, wide open target to hit. As for why he didn’t that’s probably because he was ordered by Palpatine not to.

Regardless, he doesn’t even need to have killed Anakin in that scenario for my argument to function. Anakin still leaves Dooku with an opening to Force Push him (which gets him off Dooku), and the fight ends with Anakin on his knees injured by Dooku’s attack and Dooku escaping. Either way, it still proves my point, as Dooku clearly had the edge at the end of the engagement.

Which would give the opponent time to recover before the firer closed the gap.

Conjecture. We’ve seen people be hit by Force attacks before and been unable to get up, and react to their opponents onslaught. Not to mention, in the example I referenced, Yoda was outright temporarily knocked out. While I’m obviously not claiming Palpatine could have killed Yoda he still could have gained an edge if he followed up rather than gloating.

Conclusion: What you have done is fudged the details of the SK vs Vader duel to try to make everything favourable to Vader despite it not being so. The events can be better summarised like this:

-SK destroys The Salvation which uses up a vast majority of his reserves and when he awakens he struggles to stand and also fails to perform feats which are far below his level of power.

-SK unleashes a significant portion of his remaining reserves destroying an army of his clones by which point he is more exhausted than he was after spending 13 days without food and sleep surviving solely off the Force and burning up basically all of his reserves.

-SK and Vader duel with the latter having improved his insulation to specifically resist SK’s lightning and also having geared his fighting style to perfectly stonewall SK. Despite these advantages he still loses.

Tl;dr Every circumstance to the duel was rigged against SK with Vader’s advantages being almost entirely fictitious and the story clearly depicts SK as far better.

Grey ragdolling

Grey's apprentice ragdolling

Gᴏᴀᴛ wrote:Grey's apprentice ragdolling

You've ruined the meme.

Very great thread, some might even say the best thread on the board. Lots of people are saying Starkiller wins though, and by Golly I'm just undecided so far. Will need to see Plagueis fans make my argument for me so I can decide.

'Killer still wins.

No Plagueis arguments need to be made. All know Plagueis wins this regardless.