Plagueis vs Starkiller

Greysentinel365 wrote:Hego and SK both scale vastly down from the RotS titans. Depends which you think is worse, being around equal with Vader or slightly superior to TPM Sids.

DarthAnt66 wrote:

Greysentinel365 wrote:Hego and SK both scale vastly down from the RotS titans. Depends which you think is worse, being around equal with Vader or slightly superior to TPM Sids.

TPM Palpatine > ROTS Dooku, lol.

Literally the next line he regens his reserves.

SK won due to Vader's specific weakness to lightning. Not due to having more power.

Is the dark apprentice considered a real character or was he merely an Easter egg. If he is then that supports the theory of Vader holding back or at least not going all out. It's hard to go all out when Vader knows he has the DA as a safety net.

KingofBlades wrote:Is the dark apprentice  considered a real character or was he merely an Easter egg. If he is then that supports the theory of Vader holding back or at least not going all out. It's hard to go all out when Vader knows he has the DA as a safety net.

Krayt Dies wrote:@KingofBlades

Is the dark apprentice considered a real character or was he merely an Easter egg. If he is then that supports the theory of Vader holding back or at least not going all out. It's hard to go all out when Vader knows he has the DA as a safety net.

He's considered a real character though I'm not sure how his existence stops Vader from going all out when the novel specifically states Vader was.

If he's given orders to the DA to kill SK if he's in danger of being killed, then it takes the sense of urgency out of the fight for Vader.

Fighting "all out" which I think is a statement from Vader's perspective and fighting for your life are two different levels of intensity.

Also whether or not SK is > or < Vader isn't that pertinent.

It's the degree of their gap.

The fact that the duel was as close as it was implies that SK and Vader are in the same general tier.

Even if SK is >TFU2 Vader, so is Obi Wan. RotS Obi Wan>Ben Kenobi>/=ANH Vader>TFU2 Vader.

There's nothing SK has shown in his fights with Vader that puts him anywhere but Kenobi's league.

Thus, Plagueis stomps SK.

Krayt Dies wrote:@KingofBlades

If he's given orders to the DA to kill SK if he's in danger of being killed, then it takes the sense of urgency out of the fight for Vader.

How? There's always a chance that SK could kill him even with the Dark Apprentice as a safety net especially since the DA only kills SK in the Dark Side ending due to the latter taking a baseball bat swing at Vader as opposed to quickly jabbing the saber through Vader's throat.

Fighting "all out" which I think is a statement from Vader's perspective and fighting for your life are two different levels of intensity.

It was from the narrator. Also, Vader was described as uncaring about what was happening around him and was solely focusing on the duel indicating he was taking it very seriously and the novel notes he was doing everything in his power to stop SK (cited previously) which includes fighting his absolute hardest.

Also whether or not SK is > or < Vader isn't that pertinent.

I'm agreed with this though I'm mainly refuting this because the idea that Vader and SK are equals is just something I fundamentally disagree with and in my opinion goes against the entire intent of the novels.

It's the degree of their gap.

Agreed. Their gap is utterly colossal though lol.

The fact that the duel was as close as it was implies that SK and Vader are in the same general tier.

No, it doesn't. As I said on the previous page (and received no reply to) Galen was completely exhausted (he was stated to be more exhausted than a time where he was on the verge of death) rendering the feat utterly useless to draw any conclusions from even if Vader did prove he was superior to Starkiller.

Even if SK is >TFU2 Vader, so is Obi Wan. RotS Obi Wan>Ben Kenobi>/=ANH Vader>TFU2 Vader.

Obi-Wan is like >(>) TFU 2 Vader. SK is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TFU 2 Vader.

There's nothing SK has shown in his fights with Vader that puts him anywhere but Kenobi's league.

Disagreed. His fights with Vader put him far above Kenobi and the fact is Kenobi has no way to even begin to compare to SK unless we use those showings as SK's feats utterly shit all over Kenobi's.

Thus, Plagueis stomps SK.

Still unsubstantiated.

This shows SK entered a force rage which has been shown to completely erase fatigue.

Vader then proceeded to endure a 30 second long force rage amped lightning barrage with no lethal injuries. If SK was really vastly superior to Vader then a force rage amped lightning barrage lasting as long as it did should have turned Vader into a charred husk.

KingofBlades wrote:I read the book years ago for a book report. I must admit the game is much fresher in my mind and is coloring my opinions more so than the book. As I don't have the book currently or a pdf of it, my quotes I've used of this book are found by scouring forums.

A) At the start of the novel when he had spent 13 days without food and sleep with his Force reserves having run dry he couldn't just recover them instantaneously.

After the destruction of The Salvation when he was on the last leg of his Force reserves he once again couldn't just recover them on a whim

Starkiller's eyes jerked open. Where was he? All was dark around him. He smelled smoke and his body felt as though it had been hit by an asteroid. The last thing he remembered was tightening the Force shield around him and destroying the Salvation so it wouldn't kill Juno. He was somewhere on Kamino, then. But his mind remained full of strange images and feelings that he had never experienced before.

Kashyyyk. Trandoshan slavers. His parents... ?

He tried to shrug them off. They had been dead for a long time, and the living mattered more. But he was struck by this brief glimpse of the woman who had given birth to him. Tall, with short brown hair and a physique honed by years of training, she, too, had been a Jedi Knight, like her husband. She had been a warrior, and yet she had loved her son as well. She had loved him and most likely died defending him and the Wookiees they had befriended. And until this moment, he had never known she existed or that his father had made a promise he couldn't keep.

Where had the memory come from?

It didn't matter. She didn't matter. Starkiller had to get moving, or the promise he had made to himself would also go unfulfilled.

- TFU II Novel

GM Luke (undoubtedly the most powerful Force User in the SW saga) in one of the FOTJ novels expends a large portion of his Force reserves yet once again doesn't just wave his hand and recover them and he specifically notes that recovering his reserves requires food, rest and meditation none of which were available to Galen in that scenario and that the process would take several days.

Luke continued to maintain both illusions, the Force pouring through him like fire, burning more fiercely every moment. He was drawing more energy than his body was conditioned to endure, literally burning himself up from the inside. It was not really a dark side act-to a modern Jedi, the dark side was more a matter of intent than deed-but it felt that way to him. According to Mara, this was what happened to Palpatine, and Luke believed her. He could feel himself aging-his cells weakening, the membranes growing thin and the cytoplasm simmering, the nuclei coming apart.

.........

She activated a mirror section and looked back at him. "How're you feeling?" "Like I grabbed a powerfeed," he said. "Why is that so much harder than pushing a Star Destroyer around?" Mara smiled. "Just don't make a mess on my flight deck." Feeling in danger of doing just that, Luke started to rise - then caught a glimpse of himself in the mirrored section of canopy. His face was puffy and wrinkled, his skin sallow and dry, his eyes sunken and baggy and rimmed in red. He was starting to look like Palpatine.

........

Despite a twenty-minute rest trance, Luke still looked like an escapee from a spice mine, with sallow skin and red-rimmed eyes.

- DN: TJK

It is also logical that Galen can't recover his reserves at will given that one cannot deplete Force Energy to gain Force Energy

No, he won due to being a better fighter... In order to exploit Vader's weakness to Lightning SK needed to hit him mid-combat which requires skill and it's a feat Vader entirely failed to replicate on him.

But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it.

The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike.

Finally, I'd also like to point out that Vader's suit is also the reason he can take the lightning in the first place.

A burst of lightning arced from Starkiller's fingers. Too late, the Dark Lord raised his lightsaber to catch the attack. Lightning crawled up and down his chest plate and helmet, provoking a painful whine from his breathing apparatus. The servomotors in his right arm strained.

Starkiller had only a split second before his former Master repelled the attack.

- TFU II Novel

A) Cry out in pain and give their opponent an opening to exploit (see Anakin vs Dooku in TCW S4).

B) Get sent flying (see Yoda vs Sidious in ROTS).