Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress

By virtue of . . . ?

There's nothing to scale the Outlander/Vaylin/Arcann off of Revan.

It's made clear as day in Shadow of Revan that Revan wouldn't stand a chance against Vitiate, spirit or not.

When?

@Azronger Scaling from Vaylin, Arcann and the likes.

SithArchaeologist wrote:

Azronger wrote:As I said, I don't think she exerted herself to her very limit, but I don't think it's a casual feat for her either. She extends her arms and the building buckles but doesn't shatter even though she was channelling Force energy and twisting her arms around that entire time - that's indication she met resistance. That Obi-Wan chose to gesture in situation X when we know he didn't need to is a bit of a false analogy: with Vaylin, we have no indication her maximum output is significantly greater than what she displayed with the power generator, and the visuals of the feat convey she didn't accomplish it effortlessly.

So...your entire argument for a cap on chained Vaylin's power is...somehow not instantly eviscerating a moderately sized structure? Is it possible she initially underestimated the amount of power required, and thus had to increase her power output slightly once she met resistance? There are many possible explanations for this that have nothing to do with a power cap for her. This is a massive reach and a hilariously incompetent attempt to shove powerful characters under the rug because you don't like them.

Well, you're right in that I technically can't definitively prove my proposition is true, but if you follow this line of reasoning you'll quickly discover that the same can be said of most things in Star Wars. And here's where we get into the realm of likelihoods. Vaylin never struck me as a very conservative Force wielder, so the idea she would exert small amounts of energy instead of overkilling it - or alternatively, that she doesn't know how much power she needs to accomplish a feat; in essence, that she is unfamiliar with her own strength - doesn't seem more probable to me than the notion she simply met an obstacle she couldn't effortlessly overcome. And so I go with what I consider the most likely explanation.

But in hindsight, fair enough: my case doesn't stand on the sturdiest of foundations. I certainly have biases that cause me to have subliminal blindspots; I shouldn't have made the leading argument for my case be contingent on an equivocal feat. Regardless of what you may think, however, I try not to let my preferences influence my judgement on a conscious level.

With that said, I would like your take on the Outlander's victory if you're willing.

DC77 wrote:@Azronger Scaling from Vaylin, Arcann and the likes.

Well, duh, but what scaling specifically?

The Chosen One wrote:

It's made clear as day in Shadow of Revan that Revan wouldn't stand a chance against Vitiate, spirit or not.

When?

Literally everyone in the game says he isn't a match for the Emperor. If all anyone has to say is 'not reliable source' when even light Revan, his own other half, says he can't defeat him. Then I'll take that concession right now.

LadyKulvax wrote:

The Chosen One wrote:

It's made clear as day in Shadow of Revan that Revan wouldn't stand a chance against Vitiate, spirit or not.

When?

Literally everyone in the game says he isn't a match for the Emperor. If all anyone has to say is 'not reliable source' when even light Revan, his own other half, says he can't defeat him. Then I'll take that concession right now.

To the contrary, I think the game makes it clear Revan could have succeeded had the alliance not intervened.

Azronger wrote:Well, you're right in that I technically can't definitively prove my proposition is true, but if you follow this line of reasoning you'll quickly discover that the same can be said of most things in Star Wars. And here's where we get into the realm of likelihoods. Vaylin never struck me as a very conservative Force wielder, so the idea she would exert small amounts of energy instead of overkilling it - or alternatively, that she doesn't know how much power she needs to accomplish a feat; in essence, that she is unfamiliar with her own strength - doesn't seem more probable to me than the notion she simply met an obstacle she couldn't effortlessly overcome. And so I go with what I consider the most likely explanation.

But in hindsight, fair enough: my case doesn't stand on the sturdiest of foundations. I certainly have biases that cause me to have subliminal blindspots; I shouldn't have made the leading argument for my case be contingent on an equivocal feat. Regardless of what you may think, however, I try not to let my preferences influence my judgement on a conscious level.

With that said, I would like your take on the Outlander's victory if you're willing.

While Maul's fight with Sidious gives me pause, I don't see the duo overcoming what amounts to a Plagueis level opponent. Savage just falls short. Were Maul paired instead with someone like Kenobi, I could definitely see the duo winning.

What? Literally everyone says he's insane for even trying. There's a vision of what would've happened if he'd been completely successful that the protags and some companions have of the Emperor wiping out the galaxy i.e Revan dies.

Then there's the worst point yet, Revan completely underestimates Vitiate's power in the first place. He's shocked that the Emperor came back without him being as successful as he'd planned.

Another point is that Vitiate would've broken Revan if not for Surik's ghost engineering Revan's release, who had been providing him the energy he needed to fight back in the first place. There's literally every indication you could need that says Revan can't kill Vitiate. It could not be any clearer.

LadyKulvax wrote:What? Literally everyone says he's insane for even trying. There's a vision of what would've happened if he'd been completely successful that the protags and some companions have of the Emperor wiping out the galaxy i.e Revan dies.

Then there's the worst point yet, Revan completely underestimates Vitiate's power in the first place. He's shocked that the Emperor came back without him being as successful as he'd planned.

Another point is that Vitiate would've broken Revan if not for Surik's ghost engineering Revan's release, who had been providing him the energy he needed to fight back in the first place. There's literally every indication you could need that says Revan can't kill Vitiate. It could not be any clearer.

I know you can't substantiate either point, because it's simply not true, but I'd like to see you try anyway. Show me Revan being shocked, and show me the visions.

SithArchaeologist wrote:

Azronger wrote:Well, you're right in that I technically can't definitively prove my proposition is true, but if you follow this line of reasoning you'll quickly discover that the same can be said of most things in Star Wars. And here's where we get into the realm of likelihoods. Vaylin never struck me as a very conservative Force wielder, so the idea she would exert small amounts of energy instead of overkilling it - or alternatively, that she doesn't know how much power she needs to accomplish a feat; in essence, that she is unfamiliar with her own strength - doesn't seem more probable to me than the notion she simply met an obstacle she couldn't effortlessly overcome. And so I go with what I consider the most likely explanation.

But in hindsight, fair enough: my case doesn't stand on the sturdiest of foundations. I certainly have biases that cause me to have subliminal blindspots; I shouldn't have made the leading argument for my case be contingent on an equivocal feat. Regardless of what you may think, however, I try not to let my preferences influence my judgement on a conscious level.

With that said, I would like your take on the Outlander's victory if you're willing.

While Maul's fight with Sidious gives me pause, I don't see the duo overcoming what amounts to a Plagueis level opponent. Savage just falls short. Were Maul paired instead with someone like Kenobi, I could definitely see the duo winning.

???

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What's worse, if you tell Revan he's mad for trying to bring back the Emperor, the other Revan agrees.

Being angry that Vitiate didn't face him is not the same as being shocked he was able to return at all. And as for the protag visions, each vision is different. In the Inquisitor opening, for example, Ashara receives a vision of Nox being strangulated by vines should he go to Rishi. This obviously doesn't take place. I question the veracity of any of the visions in predicting an outcome should Revan succeed.

As for the other Revan, he straight up admits he knows little of what the Shadow is, nor does he understand his full capabilities.

Yeah neither of those counters are particularly strong.

Everyone in the game agrees that Revan can't defeat the Emperor. They're all sensing the presences of Revan's shadow and the Emperor's spirit. There is very literally no reason to think Revan can take the Emperor.

He can't and he never could. Vaylin on the other hand, is literally wielding the potential of Tenebrae and is the biggest threat to him there ever was. The Outlander was purposefully created by Tenebrae to be a worthy host, with the power and strength to sustain him as a host body. Basically, the Outlander was purpose made to be the host of hosts who can withstand the Emperor's power. Thus, Outlander takes down Vaylin.

It really isn't that complicated, even without factoring in Ziost. Outlander > Vaylin >> Chained!Vaylin > Tenebrae's spirit > Revan.

Not to mention, even the website says their plan would doom the galaxy:

swtor.com wrote:In the midst of the ongoing war between the Sith Empire and the Galactic Republic, a long-hidden sect of extremists has emerged, led by the enigmatic former hero of the Jedi Civil War - Revan. These “Revanites” are mustering an army with an apocalyptic plan that will leave the Republic and the Empire in ashes.

Can someone substantiate Revan beating the Emperor or Revan being no match for the Emperor in SoR?

The quote above is an OOU source stating that Revan's plan to defeat the Emperor would mean the apocalypse and reduce the Republic/Empire to ashes, if successful. Meaning Revan can't kill the Emperor.

Then there's quotes like this:

The Empire's Wrath to Revan, Shadow of Revan wrote:"The Emperor is the dark side incarnate. You wouldn't stand a chance.....you are nothing to him."

^ Even Revan's light side Force Ghost agrees with this.

Darth Marr, Shadow of Revan wrote:"...The Emperor will prove far too powerful for Revan, or anyone else."

Savage solos, maul doesn't even attempt to move

Savage is fodder, tbh. Considering whether or not Maul is too.

LadyKulvax wrote:

The Chosen One wrote:

It's made clear as day in Shadow of Revan that Revan wouldn't stand a chance against Vitiate, spirit or not.

When?

Literally everyone in the game says he isn't a match for the Emperor. If all anyone has to say is 'not reliable source' when even light Revan, his own other half, says he can't defeat him. Then I'll take that concession right now.

I acknowledge Revan isn't Vitiate's match if the latter is in his physical form. I was questioning the part about Spirit Vitiate being > Revan. Probably should have clarified.

@Azronger Scaling from Vivicar,The First Son, Malgus, Spirit Valkorion ect. There's a bunch of different chains tbh and they together paint a picture of The Outlander as beyond the brothers.

DC77 wrote:Scaling from Vivicar,

Debunked.

The First Son, Malgus, Spirit Valkorion ect. There's a bunch of different chains tbh and they together paint a picture of The Outlander as beyond the brothers.

Not impressed with any of those. Mind elaborating?

@Azronger Admittedly TOR isn't my forte, but I'll try to write something out tomorrow.

Azronger wrote:

DC77 wrote:Scaling from Vivicar,

Debunked.

You haven't debunked it at all.