Outlander vs Maul & Savage Opress

LadyKulvax wrote:In the first place, your Kenobi scaling entirely depends on a good fight having taken place between Sidious and a young Maul. This is factually incorrect:


Sheev wasn't even using the Force in any meaningful manner, yet Maul was spent. In what dialect of Sanskrit does that mean a 'good fight'?

Episode I Journal: Darth Maul wrote:I land on the planet and begin my test. It is infinitely more difficult than my imagination has been able to grasp. The assassin droids are relentless. Again and again I am awakened by an attack. Again and again I fight, move camp, fight again. I am driven into the mountain snows and across the burning desert. I lose my survival pack in a battle and have to kill and forage for food.

Ten days go by. Fifteen. Twenty.

I grow thin and my strength begins to ebb. I have never felt such weakness, even during my fasts. And yet I have to go on. I have to fight, I have to find a place to rest, I have to fight again. I count off the days in my head.

One battle with two assassin droids almost undoes me. I sustain a bad blaster wound to my thigh. I drag myself to a cave to hide. I have no bacta, no bandages. Yet I know I must recover before I fight again.

The wound festers. It is a searing, blinding pain. I am too weak to forage for food. The days blur. I no longer know how long I've been on the planet. Surely it has been more than a month. Has my Master forgotten about me?

I am close to hallucinating when Lord Sidious appears at the mouth of the cave. I am so glad to see him that my bones turn to water. I look at him hopefully.

[...]

With a howl torn from the depths of my belly, I spring at him. He barely misses the first blow from my lightsaber, for even in my rage I have employed strategy, coming at him from below, hoping to rip him in two.

He parries my next blow. Sweat stings my eyes as I move across the rough cave floor. I do not stumble. I am nothing but the pulse of my anger, pure energy, pure darkness. I streak across the cave floor and come at him again, somersaulting through the air. My lightsaber whirls in the darkness. When he parries the blow, he staggers.

I am going to kill him. Every beat of my blood exults in my power. Every blow I deliver is meant to be the killing blow. I use reserves of strength I did not know I had. My blows are sure and precise, my footwork flawless. I gather in the power of the dark side. I feel my power clash with his. The air is thick, charged with our dark, titanic powers.

He parries every blow. But I see that he has to work hard to keep me at bay. Triumph roars through me at my Master's weakness. He is not as powerful as he appears.

"You want to kill me?" he taunts. "You want to kill your Master?"

"Yes, " I grunt.

"You hate me?"

"Yes!" I scream out the word through gritted teeth.

But I have been weakened by my ordeal, and my Master maneuvers me against the cave wall. I am gasping, trying to suck in enough air to keep going. My vision blurs as Lord Sidious raises his lightsaber. I parry the blow, but my lightsaber suddenly flies out of my hand, torn by the power of my Master directing the dark side. I realize then that he has just begun to tap into his own reserves. Mine are played out.

I will not be able to deflect the next blow.

"He's even more formidable against living beings."

Plagueis looked over his shoulder, his eyes narrowed in question. "You've fought him in a serious way?" Reconstructed vocal chords and trachea imparted a metallic quality to his voice, as if he were speaking through an enunciator.

"I stranded him on Hypori for a month without food and with only a horde of assassin droids for company. Then I returned to goad and challenge him. All things considered, he fought well, even after I deprived him of his lightsaber. He wanted to kill me, but was prepared to die at my hand."

LadyKulvax wrote:The worst part comes in when you consider how strong Plagueis, and thus Sheev, actually are. Because when you actually read the book it's made clear that Tenebrous' power dwarfs Plagueis' long after he's dead:

Noting that to achieve the aforementioned, is entirely reliant on willpower:

Something Plagueis was completely inadequate at replicating:

NOTE: I'm gonna destroy Plagueis' whole career before this thread is over.

Among the ship's crew, the Togruta, Captain Lah, had been the strongest in the Force, but she was beyond his help by the time he reached her. Had it not been for sloppiness on his part, owing to fatigue and blood loss, and lightning-fast reflexes on hers, the lightsaber might simply have pierced her neck and cervical spinal cord. But she had spun at the moment of impact, and the crimson blade had all but decapitated her. The Zabrak, too, had a slightly higher-than-normal midi-chlorian count, but not high enough to make him Force-sensitive. How different it had been to observe the behavior of the Zabrak's midi-chlorians compared with those of Darth Tenebrous, only two days earlier!

The Jedi routinely performed blood tests to verify the midi-chlorian counts of prospective trainees, but Plagueis had passed beyond the need for such crude measurements. He could not only sense the strength of the Force in another but also perceive the midi-chlorians that individualized Forceful beings. It was that dark side ability that had allowed generations of Sith to locate and initiate recruits. The dispersal of midi-chlorians at the moment of physical death was, for lack of a better term, inexorable. Analogous to his fated confrontation with the Woebegone crew, the moment of death appeared to be somehow fixed in space and time. According to his Sith education, since Captain Lah and the others had been in some sense dead from the moment Plagueis's gaze had alighted on the freighter, it followed that the midi-chlorians that resided in alleged symbiosis with them must have been preparing to be subsumed into the reservoir of life energy that was the Force long before Plagueis had stowed away. His attempts to save them-to prolong that state of symbiosis-were comparable to using a sponge to dam a raging river. And yet the Sith Lords of old were said to have been able to draw on the energies released during death to extend their own lives, as well as the lives of others. Unfortunately, much like the technique of essence transfer, that ancient knowledge had been lost.

Plagueis took it under advisement. "Their time is coming, Sidious. The signs are in the air. Their Order might have already been decimated had it not been for the setback Darth Gravid dealt the Sith. But his apprentice carried the imperative forward, and each successive Sith Lord improved on it, Tenebrous and his Master most of all, though they wasted years attempting to create a targeted virus that could be deployed against the Jedi, separating them from the Force. As if there were some organic difference between the practitioners of the light and darks sides; as if we communicate with the dark side through a different species of cellular intermediaries! When, in fact, we are animated by the same power that drives the passion of these beings gathered below. Target midi-chlorians and we target life itself."

But having gained the power to keep another alive hadn't been enough for him. And so after Sidious had returned to Coruscant, he had devoted himself to internalizing that ability, by manipulating the midi-chlorians that animated him. For several months he made no progress, but ultimately he began to perceive a measured change. The scars that had grown over his wounds had abruptly begun to soften and fade, and he had begun to breathe more freely than he had in twenty years. He began to sense that not only were his damaged tissues healing, but his entire body was rejuvinating itself. Beneath the transpirator, areas of his skin were smooth and youthful, and he knew that eventually he would cease to age altogether.

The Yinchorri former convict wasn't the only new addition to Plagueis's island facility. In the eleven years that had elapsed since the capture of Venamis and the recruitment of Sidious, Plagueis had collected more than a dozen beings of diverse species and had been subjecting them to a wide range of experiments involving volition, telepathy, healing, regeneration, and life extension, with some promising results. As for the Bith would-be Sith Lord, he was alive and well, though kept comatose more often than not, and always under the watchful photoreceptors of 11-4D or a host of custodial droids.

LadyKulvax wrote:As a matter of fact, when Plagueis kills Tenebrous, his powers are deemed 'pitiful' in comparison:


So not only is it not anywhere near as clear-cut as your initial reply represented it as being. I'm struggling to believe that Plagueis, nevermind his inferior in Sidious, scales from Tenebrous' master by much of any margin whatsoever.

NOTE: Again, more on that later.

With 11-4D deep in processing mode, Plagueis withdrew a vial of his own blood and subjected it to analysis. Despite the recent amplification of his powers he sensed that his midi-chlorian count had not increased since the events on Bal'demnic, and the analysis of the blood sample confirmed his suspicions.

Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn't master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.

LadyKulvax wrote:But here's the thing. The biggest claim to fame that Sidious and Plagueis had, and required to replicate Tenebrous' power. Was in all actuality something the Son had done and they had been amplified by:


Even the novel references Mortis, which means there is an absolute and definitive canonical link between the two. It is hence confirmed that the Son caused an imbalance with his power and that Anakin's destiny is to stop it:

The Father and the Son, The Mortis Arc, Star Wars The Clone Wars wrote:"You are growing stronger, my son."
"Am I, father?"
"Vanity, however, is getting the better of you."
"How so?"
"You have done what is forbidden. You have chosen the dark side and allowed it to feed your anger and desire for power."

Only because of this imbalance, and the power the dark side now had, could Plagueis replicate the power of Tenebrous:

So in other words, the Banite Sith's power capped out with Tenebrous. They needed an ungodly amplification to replicate and surpass that.

Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader wrote:Sidious recalled the desperate return trip to Coruscant; recalled using all his powers, and all the potions and devices contained in his medkit, to minister to Anakin's hopelessly blistered body and truncated limbs.

He recalled thinking: What if Anakin should die?

How many years would he have had to search for an apprentice even half as powerful in the Force, let alone one created by the Force itself to restore balance, by allowing the dark side to percolate fully to the surface after a millennium of being stifled?

The fact that Qui-Gon Jinn had identified Maul as a Sith was to be expected; but Dooku's news about a human boy at the center of a vergence of the Force had come as a shock. More, Qui-Gon saw the boy as the Jedi's prophesied Chosen One!

He had to see this Anakin Skywalker for himself; had to sense him for himself. He had to know if the Force had struck back again, nine years earlier, by conceiving a human being to restore balance to the galaxy.

[...]

Beneath the breath mask, Plagueis might have quirked a smile. "It means that the pregnancies were not achieved by normal means of conception, but rather through the Force."

Surprise and disbelief mingled in Sidious's blue eyes. "The Force?"

"Yes," Plagueis said pensively. "But I failed to exercise due caution. As we attempt to wrest the powers of life and death from the Force, as we seek to tip the balance, the Force resists our efforts. Action and reaction, Sidious. Something akin to the laws of thermodynamics. I have been audacious, and the Force has tested me the way Tenebrous sought to. Midi-chlorians are not easily persuaded to execute the dictates of one newly initiated in the mysteries. The Force needs to be won over, especially in work that involves the dark side. It must be reassured that a Sith is capable of accepting authority. Otherwise it will thwart one's intentions. It will engineer misfortune. It will strike back."

LadyKulvax wrote:In fact, Plagueis fully admits that prior to this, he'd failed to replicate the powers of the likes of Exar Kun:

So Plagueis is effectively saying, that Exar Kun and Naga Sadow were either genuinely more powerful than him or the dark side of the Force had been stronger back then. Which doesn't really matter. Because it means the same thing. The powers of the Banite line up until the imbalance, were lesser than that of Exar Kun by Plagueis' own admission.

While midi-chlorians appeared to resist manipulation of a sort that might imperil the balance of the Force, they remained passive, even compliant, in the case of a weak-willed being manipulated by one who was strong in the Force. Perhaps that explained why it was often easier to call on the Force to heal someone other than oneself. Extending life, then, could hinge on something as simple as being able to induce midi-chlorians to create new cells; to subdivide at will, increasing their numbers into the tens of thousands to heal or replace damaged, aging, or metastatic cells. Midi-chlorians had to be compelled to serve the needs of the body; to bestow strength when needed; to overcome physical insult, or prevent cells from reaching senescence.

If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this. But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras? Some commentators claimed that the ability to survive death had been limited to those with a talent for sorcery and alchemy, and that the use of such practices actually predated the arrival of the Dark Jedi exiles on Korriban. But sorcery had been employed less to extend life than to create illusions, fashion beasts, and resurrect the dead. Powerful adepts were said to have been able to saturate the atmosphere of planets with dark side energy, compel stars to explode, or induce paralysis in crowds, as Exar Kun apparently did to select members of the Republic Senate. Other adepts used sorcery merely as a means to better understand ancient Sith spells and sigils.

Darth Bane had referred to sorcery as one of the purest expressions of the dark side of the Force, and yet he hadn't been able to harness those energies with near the skill as had his onetime apprentice Zannah. Bane's disciples, however, believed that he had experimented with a technique of even greater significance: that of essence transfer, which he had learned after acquiring and plundering the holocron of Darth Andeddu, and which involved the relocation of an individual's consciousness into another body or, in some cases, a talisman, temple, or sarcophagus. Thus had the most powerful of the ancient Sith Lords survived death to haunt and harass those who would infiltrate their tombs.

But none of this amounted to corporeal survival.

Plagueis had no interest in being a lingering, disembodied presence, trapped between worlds and powerless to affect the material realm except through the actions of weak-minded beings he could goad, coax, or will into action. Nor did he seek to shunt his mind into the body of another, whether an apprentice, as Bane was thought to have attempted, or some vat-grown clone. Nothing less than the immortality of his body and mind would suffice.

Everlasting life.

Sadly he could glean only so much from the texts, crystals, and holocrons stored in the library. Crucial knowledge had been lost during the brief mastery of Darth Gravid, and many of the most important elements of Sith training since had been passed from Masters to apprentices in sessions that had been left unrecorded. More to the point, Darth Tenebrous had had very little to say regarding death.

Only the Sith understood that sentient life was on the verge of a transformative leap; that through the manipulation of midi-chlorians-or the overthrow of the Forceful group that supervised them-the divide between organic life and the Force could be bridged, and death could be erased from the continuum.

As evidenced by those few Lords who had managed to perpetuate their spirits after physical death-foremost among them Emperor Vitiate, who was said to have lived a thousand years-the ancient Sith had come halfway across that bridge. But those few had been so focused on worldly power that they had ended up trapping themselves between realms. That they had never provided the Order with guidance from beyond attested to the fact that their influence had been negligible, and had long since faded from the world.

In the same way that the pre-Bane Sith had been responsible for their own extinction, the great dark side Lords of the past had doomed themselves to the nether realm through their attempts to conquer death by feeding off the energies of others, rather than by tapping the deepest strata of the Force and learning to speak the language of the midi-chlorians. Plagueis was finally learning to do that, and was just beginning to learn how to persuade, prompt, cajole, and coax them into action. Already he could command them to promote healing, and now he had been successful in enticing them to lower their defenses. If he could compel a murderous Yinchorri to become peaceful, could he-with a mere suggestion-accomplish the opposite by turning a peaceful being into a murderer? Would he one day be able to influence the leaders of worlds and systems to act according to his designs, however iniquitous? Would he one day conquer not only death but life, as well, by manipulating midi-chlorians to produce Forceful beings, even in the absence of fertilization, as Darth Tenebrous might have attempted to do with gene-splicing techniques and computers?

Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn't master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.

LadyKulvax wrote:It makes sense though, in all honesty. Because even Plagueis approaching his prime was unable to shroud his powers from the senses of Jedi who were across the galaxy:

Darth Plagueis wrote:Palpatine paced away from Pestage. He opened himself fully to the Force, and was left staggered by an inrush of overwhelming malevolence. He planted his left hand on the desk for support and managed a stuttering inhale. Somewhere close by, the dark side was unspooling.

[...]

“Master, we need to leave at once,” Sidious said. “What I felt, the Jedi may have felt, and they will come.”

[...]

“I’m relieved to learn that I didn’t disappoint you, Master. But the Jedi summoned the police to the Fobosi district moments after we left. The plan is already endangered.”

Color rose in Plagueis’s cheeks. “The Jedi have long known that the dark side has been reawakened and cannot be checked by them. Now they have felt it on their own Coruscant.”

"Master, we need to leave at once," Sidious said. "What I felt, the Jedi may have felt, and they will come."

"Let them," Plagueis rasped. "Let them inhale the aroma of the dark side."

"This carnage is beyond explanation. We can't be here."

After a moment, Plagueis nodded and summoned a gurgling voice. "Recall the Sun Guard. When they're done here..."

Plagueis pressed his right hand to the right side of his neck to discover that a disk had made off with a considerable hunk of his jawbone and neck, and in its cruel passing had severed his trachea and several blood vessels. He cupped the Force against the injury to keep himself from lapsing into unconsciousness, but he fell to the floor regardless, with blood pumping onto the already slick stone circle.

[...]

Plagueis knew that he had lost a great deal of blood, and that one of his subsidiary hearts was in fibrillation. Sith techniques had helped him perform chemical cardioversions on his other two hearts, but one of them was working so hard to compensate that it, too, was in danger of becoming arrhythmic. Plagueis moved his eyes just enough to fix the locations of some of the two dozen assassins that had survived the Sun Guards' counterattack; then he dug deep into the Force and catapulted himself to his feet.

This was not the life he had imagined for himself ten years earlier when he had sworn loyalty to the dark side of the Force. His hunger to be in closer contact with the Force, to be an even more powerful Sith, knew no bounds. But how was he to know when he had arrived at some semblance of mastery? When Plagueis told him?

LadyKulvax wrote:Whereas Kun in a very weakened spiritual state was able to do both that and knock out Corran Horn, whilst maintaining direct domination over Kyp's mind. But this time, it was literally fifteen meters away from a hall full of Jedi:


One of which was Master Luke Skywalker, who had already been actively looking for him:



Would you now like me to explain why possibly capping out at Exar Kun means Vitiate murks Plagueis, by extension the brothers, and thus so would the Outlander?

Your scaling ain't got shit.

This Maul ~ Utapau!Kenobi > InvisibleHand!Kenobi > Cato Neimoidia!Kenobi > Boz Pity!Kenobi > Coruscant!Kenobi > Rendili!Kenobi > Titavian!Kenobi > Vjun!Kenobi > Onderon!Kenobi > Mandolore!Kenobi > Coruscant!Kenobi > Florrum!Kenobi > Turtle Tanker!Kenobi > Raydonia!Kenobi > Florrum!Kenobi > Negotiator!Kenobi > Theed!Kenobi > The BOX!Kenobi > Rako Hardeen Kenobi > Kadavo!Kenobi > Zygerria!Kenobi > Kiros!Kenobi > Umbara!Kenobi >  Starcrusher!Kenobi > Lola Sayu!Kenobi > Mortis!Kenobi who is able to tank a cheapshot lightning blast from the Son > Toydaria!Kenobi > Sullust!Kenobi > Death Canyon!Kenobi > Teth!Kenobi > Nal Hutta!Kenobi >  Coruscant!Kenobi > Coronet!Kenobi > Concordia!Kenobi > Mandolore!Kenobi > Kamino!Kenobi > Saleucami!Kenobi > Geonosis!Kenobi > Valahari!Kenobi > Zillo Beast Kenobi > Malastare!Kenobi > Felucia!Kenobi >  Rogue Antar system!Kenobi > Jedi Temple!Kenobi > Rodia!Kenobi > Jedi Temple!Kenobi > Felucia!Kenobi > Lessu!Kenobi > Nabat!Kenobi > Iego!Kenobi > Blue Shadow Virus!Kenobi > Orto Plutonia!Kenobi >  Florrum!Kenobi > Vanqor!Kenobi > Bothawui!Kenobi > Zigoola!Kenobi > Devastation!Kenobi > 3 Planet!Kenobi > Malevolence!Kenobi > Gwori!Kenobi > Teth!Kenobi > Tatooine!Kenobi > Christophsis!Kenobi > Azure!Kenobi > Genian!Kenobi >  Merson asteroid belt!Kenobi > Riflor!Kenobi > Rattatak!Kenobi > Jabiim!Kenobi > Ord Cestus!Kenobi > Skye!Kenobi > Battle of Hypori!Kenobi > Battle of Muunilinst!Kenobi > Queyta!Kenobi > Ohma-D'un!Kenobi > Dark Reaper(4planets)!Kenobi > Kamino!Kenobi > Geonosis1stbattle!Kenobi > Kamino!Kenobi > Coruscant!Kenobi > Ansion!Kenobi > Random Planet!Kenobi > Korriban!Kenobi > Falleen!Kenobi > Romin!Kenobi > Typha-Dor!Kenobi > Vanqor!Kenobi > Mawan!Kenobi > Andara!Kenobi > Ragoon VI!Kenobi > Barlok!Kenobi > Radnor!Kenobi > Nar Shaddaa!Kenobi > Kodai!Kenobi > Zonama Sekot!Kenobi > First Mission Anakin!Kenobi > Jedi Temple!Kenobi > Naboo Kenobi > Jinn < Maul who Kenobi was able to cut in half >>>>>>>> young exhausted Maul who was able to give Lord Sidious a good fight > Tenebrous >>> Tenebrous' Master > [b]Galaxy Light Side Bubble

Keep mauling AP though. You're doing good work.

Krayt Dies wrote:This thread is now bookmarked.

LadyKulvax wrote:This is the kind of utterly insane scaling Outlander gets, which is why there's no way on earth that the team wins:

(Valkorion >> Spirit!Valkorion >> Outlander, Arcann & Spirit!Vaylin >>) The Outlander > Vaylin >> Chained!Vaylin ~ Arcann > (Weakened)Spirit!Valkorion >>> Spirit!Vitiate ~ Ziost > YavinIV!Vitiate > Dark Revan >> Hero of Tython, Lord Scourge, Darth Marr, Satele Shan, Lana Beniko & the Protagonist Strike Team >> Protagonist Strike Team (aid of mental protection) > Dread Masters ~ multi-system power projection; TK dominating DreadWar!Hero of Tython; destroying fleets >> Emperor Malgus ~ Coalition Strike Team >>

1.ActIII Barsen'thor > First Son > > Children of the Emperor >/~ Act II Barsen'thor >> EoActIBarsen'thor > Lord Vivicar ~ 100s of Jedi Masters >> Terrak Morrhage ~ system-wide dark side nexus.

2.ActIIIDarth Nox >> Darth Thanaton >>> Teneb Kel ~\< Exal Kressh >> Children of the Emperor > ActIIBarsen'thor >> EoActIBarsen'thor > Lord Vivicar ~ Draining 100s of Jedi Masters >> Terrak Morrhage ~ system-wide dark side nexus.

3.ActIII Wrath > Sel-Makor >> 'False Voice' Baras > Darth Ekkage > Darth Vengean > Master Wyellett > Xerender > Tol Braga > Warren Sedoru > Ven Zallow ~ Darth Malgus > Aryn Leneer > Hope!Malgus > Knight Satele Shan > Lord Malgus ~ Kao Cen Darach > ToC!Darth Baras > Pre-Sel Makor amp!Baras > Lord Fulminiss ~ breaking the minds of four elite Sith Lords, strong enough to be hand-selected by the Emperor for his death cult.

4.Act III Slayer > (Weakened) Vitiate > Spirit!Vitiate ~ Dark Temple destruction > Tol Braga, Warren Sedoru, Leeha Narezz, Act II Slayer > Act II Slayer ~ Lord Scourge > Tol Braga > Warren Sedoru > Leeha Narezz ~ all three are the most powerful Jedi and best warriors, in the Jedi Order.

The Outlander stomps.

Azronger wrote:Keep mauling AP though. You're doing good work.

Praxis wrote:What the fuck did I just come back to

Quorian Debatist wrote:The sheer dishonesty you display when using quotes might be even worse than all the arguments you drop/things you ignore. I almost prefer your vagueness, as at least it leaves it open as to what exactly you're twisting to fit your needs. I imagine you printing out some of these quotes and looking at them through all sorts of different lights and angles to finally get what you're looking for. Find the invisible ink arguments.



Now, I'm not one for "trust me, bro, you're wrong" so let's do a couple of sweeps here, and then we'll delve into the specifics later:


Literally, all your quotes are about Plagueis learning about how Midiclorian Manipulation actually works. Just because it goes into the trial and error aspects of this new fantastical power, that doesn't mean he never overcame those errors. We know he did (Venamis is a testament to that), and even if he still had trouble, that doesn't override the results of said experiments.

For example, you use a quote where Plagueis notes the difficulty of Increasing his own midiclorians. Even if your logic is absolute - he had trouble replicating it - the end result is still him increasing his own midiclorians through his own power. It could have taken him decades to achieve this power, but the key fact is that he did and it was permanent. He benefits from this increase and all the difficulty in the world doesn't steal it away from him.

But again, these quotes were about him actually learning this power. It's showing us [readers] what he went through to master it, and leaving notes on how he accomplished it. It doesn't mean that literally every time he ever used the power that it was difficult. It just takes a lot of effort to learn and master it. You wouldn't use a Sith learning lightning to judge his usage years down the line, would you? Things get easier with time and practice, and even earlier on - pre 8 years of mastery - he was killing and reviving Darth Venamis with the manipulation of Midiclorians. A little more adept than slaves and small animals, wouldn't you say?


Next, you seem to be using things I used and then ignoring the point of why I used them and acted as you stumbled upon them randomly. Your Celestials point that I just made; except you actually doubled down and stated it MUST have had an absolute and canonical link to Plagueis' imbalance. Do you think locking their involvement into the feat helps you if you're proven wrong? If I make a case that says they may have been involved, and then you state they were definitely involved in some way, do you think it wise to not actually comprehend my words before you get too excited about your "totally new argument?"
I already know what you're going to do, but I'll just sum it up anyway:

"They only had an involvement if they imbalanced it."


And on this note of seeing the arguments I made, but magically forgetting them...
Like, come on at that Tenebrous Way "Pitiful" usage. Why would you do that? I posted the specifics, but you seem to have actually found the source, read it looking for something to shit on Plagueis, and then what... stopped reading? I'm surprised you managed to quote a word after "Pitiful" because you clearly rushed off too soon.

But anyway, let's get into it.

LadyKulvax wrote:In the first place, your Kenobi scaling entirely depends on a good fight having taken place between Sidious and a young Maul. This is factually incorrect:


Sheev wasn't even using the Force in any meaningful manner, yet Maul was spent. In what dialect of Sanskrit does that mean a 'good fight'?

Quorian Debatist wrote:Sheev beginning to tap into his reserves against a Maul who was starving and weakened prior to the fight is supposed to tell the entire tale now? Naturally once his rage boost wears off, he will be completely finished. Nevermind the fact that this was entirely from Maul's perspective, which further highlights your hypocrisy.

This is Maul prior to the fight and the part of the fight where he does good:

Episode I Journal: Darth Maul wrote:I land on the planet and begin my test. It is infinitely more difficult than my imagination has been able to grasp. The assassin droids are relentless. Again and again I am awakened by an attack. Again and again I fight, move camp, fight again. I am driven into the mountain snows and across the burning desert. I lose my survival pack in a battle and have to kill and forage for food.

Ten days go by. Fifteen. Twenty.

I grow thin and my strength begins to ebb. I have never felt such weakness, even during my fasts. And yet I have to go on. I have to fight, I have to find a place to rest, I have to fight again. I count off the days in my head.

One battle with two assassin droids almost undoes me. I sustain a bad blaster wound to my thigh. I drag myself to a cave to hide. I have no bacta, no bandages. Yet I know I must recover before I fight again.

The wound festers. It is a searing, blinding pain. I am too weak to forage for food. The days blur. I no longer know how long I've been on the planet. Surely it has been more than a month. Has my Master forgotten about me?

I am close to hallucinating when Lord Sidious appears at the mouth of the cave. I am so glad to see him that my bones turn to water. I look at him hopefully.

[...]

With a howl torn from the depths of my belly, I spring at him. He barely misses the first blow from my lightsaber, for even in my rage I have employed strategy, coming at him from below, hoping to rip him in two.

He parries my next blow. Sweat stings my eyes as I move across the rough cave floor. I do not stumble. I am nothing but the pulse of my anger, pure energy, pure darkness. I streak across the cave floor and come at him again, somersaulting through the air. My lightsaber whirls in the darkness. When he parries the blow, he staggers.

I am going to kill him. Every beat of my blood exults in my power. Every blow I deliver is meant to be the killing blow. I use reserves of strength I did not know I had. My blows are sure and precise, my footwork flawless. I gather in the power of the dark side. I feel my power clash with his. The air is thick, charged with our dark, titanic powers.

He parries every blow. But I see that he has to work hard to keep me at bay. Triumph roars through me at my Master's weakness. He is not as powerful as he appears.

"You want to kill me?" he taunts. "You want to kill your Master?"

"Yes, " I grunt.

"You hate me?"

"Yes!" I scream out the word through gritted teeth.

But I have been weakened by my ordeal, and my Master maneuvers me against the cave wall. I am gasping, trying to suck in enough air to keep going. My vision blurs as Lord Sidious raises his lightsaber. I parry the blow, but my lightsaber suddenly flies out of my hand, torn by the power of my Master directing the dark side. I realize then that he has just begun to tap into his own reserves. Mine are played out.

I will not be able to deflect the next blow.

So yes, that is a 'Good fight' to me. He managed to challenge Sidious to a degree. You've gotten so gung-ho about words I never stated that you can't accept the truth. Under what metric is pushing someone back and forcing them to work hard not a 'Good fight'? Just because Sidious wasn't using all his reserves that doesn't mean he wasn't pushed.

And pushing a user of this capacity in a fight is beyond Tenebrous' master, mind you, you ignored that entirely so I have no basis of your current feelings towards him.

"He's even more formidable against living beings."

Plagueis looked over his shoulder, his eyes narrowed in question. "You've fought him in a serious way?" Reconstructed vocal chords and trachea imparted a metallic quality to his voice, as if he were speaking through an enunciator.

"I stranded him on Hypori for a month without food and with only a horde of assassin droids for company. Then I returned to goad and challenge him. All things considered, he fought well, even after I deprived him of his lightsaber. He wanted to kill me, but was prepared to die at my hand."

LadyKulvax wrote:The worst part comes in when you consider how strong Plagueis, and thus Sheev, actually are. Because when you actually read the book it's made clear that Tenebrous' power dwarfs Plagueis' long after he's dead:

Noting that to achieve the aforementioned, is entirely reliant on willpower:

Something Plagueis was completely inadequate at replicating:

NOTE: I'm gonna destroy Plagueis' whole career before this thread is over.

Quorian Debatist wrote:That quote was in 67 BBY, or in other words, the start of Plagueis' journey in the book:

Among the ship's crew, the Togruta, Captain Lah, had been the strongest in the Force, but she was beyond his help by the time he reached her. Had it not been for sloppiness on his part, owing to fatigue and blood loss, and lightning-fast reflexes on hers, the lightsaber might simply have pierced her neck and cervical spinal cord. But she had spun at the moment of impact, and the crimson blade had all but decapitated her. The Zabrak, too, had a slightly higher-than-normal midi-chlorian count, but not high enough to make him Force-sensitive. How different it had been to observe the behavior of the Zabrak's midi-chlorians compared with those of Darth Tenebrous, only two days earlier!

The Jedi routinely performed blood tests to verify the midi-chlorian counts of prospective trainees, but Plagueis had passed beyond the need for such crude measurements. He could not only sense the strength of the Force in another but also perceive the midi-chlorians that individualized Forceful beings. It was that dark side ability that had allowed generations of Sith to locate and initiate recruits. The dispersal of midi-chlorians at the moment of physical death was, for lack of a better term, inexorable. Analogous to his fated confrontation with the Woebegone crew, the moment of death appeared to be somehow fixed in space and time. According to his Sith education, since Captain Lah and the others had been in some sense dead from the moment Plagueis's gaze had alighted on the freighter, it followed that the midi-chlorians that resided in alleged symbiosis with them must have been preparing to be subsumed into the reservoir of life energy that was the Force long before Plagueis had stowed away. His attempts to save them-to prolong that state of symbiosis-were comparable to using a sponge to dam a raging river. And yet the Sith Lords of old were said to have been able to draw on the energies released during death to extend their own lives, as well as the lives of others. Unfortunately, much like the technique of essence transfer, that ancient knowledge had been lost.

Yes, Tenebrous thought Plagueis was shit and he failed to train him. If we're looking at the actual specifics however, Plagueis viewed his virus as a waste of time, was able to heal himself and was on the verge of stopping aging altogether in 43-42 BBY.

Plagueis took it under advisement. "Their time is coming, Sidious. The signs are in the air. Their Order might have already been decimated had it not been for the setback Darth Gravid dealt the Sith. But his apprentice carried the imperative forward, and each successive Sith Lord improved on it, Tenebrous and his Master most of all, though they wasted years attempting to create a targeted virus that could be deployed against the Jedi, separating them from the Force. As if there were some organic difference between the practitioners of the light and darks sides; as if we communicate with the dark side through a different species of cellular intermediaries! When, in fact, we are animated by the same power that drives the passion of these beings gathered below. Target midi-chlorians and we target life itself."

But having gained the power to keep another alive hadn't been enough for him. And so after Sidious had returned to Coruscant, he had devoted himself to internalizing that ability, by manipulating the midi-chlorians that animated him. For several months he made no progress, but ultimately he began to perceive a measured change. The scars that had grown over his wounds had abruptly begun to soften and fade, and he had begun to breathe more freely than he had in twenty years. He began to sense that not only were his damaged tissues healing, but his entire body was rejuvinating itself. Beneath the transpirator, areas of his skin were smooth and youthful, and he knew that eventually he would cease to age altogether.

11 years after capturing Venamis he also made huge strides in his manipulation:

The Yinchorri former convict wasn't the only new addition to Plagueis's island facility. In the eleven years that had elapsed since the capture of Venamis and the recruitment of Sidious, Plagueis had collected more than a dozen beings of diverse species and had been subjecting them to a wide range of experiments involving volition, telepathy, healing, regeneration, and life extension, with some promising results. As for the Bith would-be Sith Lord, he was alive and well, though kept comatose more often than not, and always under the watchful photoreceptors of 11-4D or a host of custodial droids.

As we've seen, he makes huge strides in 43-42 BBY. Then he spent 8 years trying to create beings out of the Force and felt he was on the verge of doing it.

Anyway, the main point is it was a learning experience. It's showing us the trials and tribulations he had to go through to breakthrough his limitations. His MM had grown in leaps and bounds, and it was portrayed far above what Tenebrous had done without the use of machines. His MM was absolutely a success in the end with the only real obstacle were creating beings out of the force; which he was on the verge of accomplishing.

Trying to stifle Plagueis' understanding based on quotes when he was still inexperienced and trying to overcome limits; is disingenuous at best. He had 35 years of experience after your quotes. He spent that time trying to make things easier and natural for him. To overcome the reasons you think he's shit.

You wouldn't like it if people judged you based on forging quotes of years past. We should judge you based on your current ability to manipulate and stitch quotes and leave out giant amounts of context.

Speaking of

LadyKulvax wrote:As a matter of fact, when Plagueis kills Tenebrous, his powers are deemed 'pitiful' in comparison:


So not only is it not anywhere near as clear-cut as your initial reply represented it as being. I'm struggling to believe that Plagueis, nevermind his inferior in Sidious, scales from Tenebrous' master by much of any margin whatsoever.

NOTE: Again, more on that later.

Like two posts above you is a picture of Tenebrous being mistaken and wanking Plagueis' power... from the same story:


- Tenebrous Way




This is prior to Plagueis gaining a powerup from killing Tenebrous without increasing his Midiclorians (of which we knew he was able to as off 33 BBY):

With 11-4D deep in processing mode, Plagueis withdrew a vial of his own blood and subjected it to analysis. Despite the recent amplification of his powers he sensed that his midi-chlorian count had not increased since the events on Bal'demnic, and the analysis of the blood sample confirmed his suspicions.

And Plagueis later felt himself that he was vastly beyond Tenebrous (and any sith) as of 33 BBY. A feeling that has merit considering he had known the scope of his power and observed his individual cells blinking out.

Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn't master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.

So no, taking an out of context quote of how Tenebrous views Plagueis does not carry weight. Good job ignoring Tenebrous had 100 years of growth after his master died too.

Quorian Debatist wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:But here's the thing. The biggest claim to fame that Sidious and Plagueis had, and required to replicate Tenebrous' power. Was in all actuality something the Son had done and they had been amplified by:

Even the novel references Mortis, which means there is an absolute and definitive canonical link between the two. It is hence confirmed that the Son caused an imbalance with his power and that Anakin's destiny is to stop it:

The Father and the Son, The Mortis Arc, Star Wars The Clone Wars wrote:"You are growing stronger, my son."
"Am I, father?"
"Vanity, however, is getting the better of you."
"How so?"
"You have done what is forbidden. You have chosen the dark side and allowed it to feed your anger and desire for power."

Only because of this imbalance, and the power the dark side now had, could Plagueis replicate the power of Tenebrous:

So in other words, the Banite Sith's power capped out with Tenebrous. They needed an ungodly amplification to replicate and surpass that.

The literal very next line of dialogue attributes the Son growing in power to Anakin's arrival on Mortis.
"By bringing the Chosen One here, you've shown me my potential. You've only yourself to blame!"
9:10
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6ookzv

In other words, it can't have been in effect prior to 43-42 BBY.

Even if it didn't, how exactly do you think an event that happened 20 years later directly allowed for an event 20 years earlier to happen? How did you think this related without even an implicit correlation? The natural assumption based purely on what you posted is that Plagueis/Sheev caused the imbalance that powered up the Son, not the opposite. Which is a lot more feasible than the hoops you just jumped through.

And how do you think the Son unbalanced the Force, and this allowed Plagueis to willingly unbalance the Force?

Well, not sure what you're going on about with Tenebrous, but glad to see you accepted that they unbalanced the Force. Glad to see you tied it to the Celestials as well.

However, before you start trying to squirm your way out of this, let's twist the knife, shall we?

You've conceded that they unbalanced the Force. You may have prefaced it with an explanation, but you have ceded that they, in fact, have unbalanced the force. The first step is admitting you were wrong.

Although you now accept that they did this, it's still important to note that their unbalancing was not just that passage and it's over. The Force itself created the Chosen One to rise up against them. Indicating it wasn't just a minor thing or "IU" like you previously stated. Since you want to bring the Celestials into this, it created a being with the potential to match or surpass The Father to strike back against what Sidious and Plagueis did.

Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader wrote:Sidious recalled the desperate return trip to Coruscant; recalled using all his powers, and all the potions and devices contained in his medkit, to minister to Anakin's hopelessly blistered body and truncated limbs.

He recalled thinking: What if Anakin should die?

How many years would he have had to search for an apprentice even half as powerful in the Force, let alone one created by the Force itself to restore balance, by allowing the dark side to percolate fully to the surface after a millennium of being stifled?

The fact that Qui-Gon Jinn had identified Maul as a Sith was to be expected; but Dooku's news about a human boy at the center of a vergence of the Force had come as a shock. More, Qui-Gon saw the boy as the Jedi's prophesied Chosen One!

He had to see this Anakin Skywalker for himself; had to sense him for himself. He had to know if the Force had struck back again, nine years earlier, by conceiving a human being to restore balance to the galaxy.

[...]

Beneath the breath mask, Plagueis might have quirked a smile. "It means that the pregnancies were not achieved by normal means of conception, but rather through the Force."

Surprise and disbelief mingled in Sidious's blue eyes. "The Force?"

"Yes," Plagueis said pensively. "But I failed to exercise due caution. As we attempt to wrest the powers of life and death from the Force, as we seek to tip the balance, the Force resists our efforts. Action and reaction, Sidious. Something akin to the laws of thermodynamics. I have been audacious, and the Force has tested me the way Tenebrous sought to. Midi-chlorians are not easily persuaded to execute the dictates of one newly initiated in the mysteries. The Force needs to be won over, especially in work that involves the dark side. It must be reassured that a Sith is capable of accepting authority. Otherwise it will thwart one's intentions. It will engineer misfortune. It will strike back."

If you don't accept this, your alternative is that Plagueis actually created Anakin. So...

Quorian Debatist wrote:In your next point, you try to play their unsettling off as below Sith of the past. The problem here is that no Sith has ever had the Force strike back with something so powerful before (only one is the Darkstaff of this magnitude IIRC). Ancient Sith lived longer, Kun could hide his presence; tell me when their power forces the Force to create the Chosen One to oppose them. So when you dig to the bottom of that hole to try and find reasons to wank Ancient Sith above Plagueis, you may want to keep that in mind.

Exar Kun can mask his presence. Plagueis can't. Plagueis can unbalance the force to a degree where it creates the chosen one. Exar Kun can't.

Tell me what's more impressive?

Quorian Debatist wrote:Before it gets said too, Mortis was balanced by the time all The Ones died, but the Galaxy wasn't. So no, this didn't throw the galaxy out of whack. It just meant the deities couldn't keep tabs on the galaxy anymore. The galaxy was unbalanced both before and after this.

Quorian Debatist wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:In fact, Plagueis fully admits that prior to this, he'd failed to replicate the powers of the likes of Exar Kun:

So Plagueis is effectively saying, that Exar Kun and Naga Sadow were either genuinely more powerful than him or the dark side of the Force had been stronger back then. Which doesn't really matter. Because it means the same thing. The powers of the Banite line up until the imbalance, were lesser than that of Exar Kun by Plagueis' own admission.

Full quote from again, 67 BBY (Start of Book Plagueis):

While midi-chlorians appeared to resist manipulation of a sort that might imperil the balance of the Force, they remained passive, even compliant, in the case of a weak-willed being manipulated by one who was strong in the Force. Perhaps that explained why it was often easier to call on the Force to heal someone other than oneself. Extending life, then, could hinge on something as simple as being able to induce midi-chlorians to create new cells; to subdivide at will, increasing their numbers into the tens of thousands to heal or replace damaged, aging, or metastatic cells. Midi-chlorians had to be compelled to serve the needs of the body; to bestow strength when needed; to overcome physical insult, or prevent cells from reaching senescence.

If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this. But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras? Some commentators claimed that the ability to survive death had been limited to those with a talent for sorcery and alchemy, and that the use of such practices actually predated the arrival of the Dark Jedi exiles on Korriban. But sorcery had been employed less to extend life than to create illusions, fashion beasts, and resurrect the dead. Powerful adepts were said to have been able to saturate the atmosphere of planets with dark side energy, compel stars to explode, or induce paralysis in crowds, as Exar Kun apparently did to select members of the Republic Senate. Other adepts used sorcery merely as a means to better understand ancient Sith spells and sigils.

Darth Bane had referred to sorcery as one of the purest expressions of the dark side of the Force, and yet he hadn't been able to harness those energies with near the skill as had his onetime apprentice Zannah. Bane's disciples, however, believed that he had experimented with a technique of even greater significance: that of essence transfer, which he had learned after acquiring and plundering the holocron of Darth Andeddu, and which involved the relocation of an individual's consciousness into another body or, in some cases, a talisman, temple, or sarcophagus. Thus had the most powerful of the ancient Sith Lords survived death to haunt and harass those who would infiltrate their tombs.

But none of this amounted to corporeal survival.

Plagueis had no interest in being a lingering, disembodied presence, trapped between worlds and powerless to affect the material realm except through the actions of weak-minded beings he could goad, coax, or will into action. Nor did he seek to shunt his mind into the body of another, whether an apprentice, as Bane was thought to have attempted, or some vat-grown clone. Nothing less than the immortality of his body and mind would suffice.

Everlasting life.

Sadly he could glean only so much from the texts, crystals, and holocrons stored in the library. Crucial knowledge had been lost during the brief mastery of Darth Gravid, and many of the most important elements of Sith training since had been passed from Masters to apprentices in sessions that had been left unrecorded. More to the point, Darth Tenebrous had had very little to say regarding death.

This was about extending the life and other possible midiclorian purposes (all things Plagueis learned how to control). Something that a still-learning Plagueis was trying to figure out. He was postulating how they could subsist if stories were true.

And no, the alternative is the Dark Side is more prominent, not necessarily more powerful. IE, knowledge of how to accomplish these tasks, for example, preventing cells from aging. How is being more powerful going to accomplish this without Midiclorian manipulation? All that would do is exasperate the issue. Knowledge and knowledge being so readily available seems to read better in that section.

Second, the entire section was rife with speculation based on hearsay. Even if Plagueis did genuinely think the Sith Lords of old were more powerful, that doesn't make it true. Plagueis theorizing that they're more powerful due to longevity doesn't make them more powerful. That would make them capable of utilizing a power Plagueis dreams of, but that doesn't mean their actual battle prowess would be greater. We have to understand that Plagueis' entire dream is to be immortal, so when he sees options to achieve this, he's going to wank it more than another Sith after pure raw power. Plagueis is an immortality fanboy. Anyone who achieves his dream is going to be viewed as "powerful" no matter how low their actual raw power is. You're viewing it through battleboards terms, but not through the context of the book.

And in combination with the entire quote, it points to Kun and Naga surviving as spirits. Which is exactly what Plagueis doesn't want. This is further highlighted by:

"But none of this amounted to corporeal survival."

Nothing mentioned was what Plagueis strived for, which means that it's unlikely they actually knew how to do what Plagueis sought out to do.

This is further corroborated when he shuns Vitiate's use of spirits where he outright states that the Ancient Sith could not speak the language of the Force and had to rely on others or subside as a spirit.

Only the Sith understood that sentient life was on the verge of a transformative leap; that through the manipulation of midi-chlorians-or the overthrow of the Forceful group that supervised them-the divide between organic life and the Force could be bridged, and death could be erased from the continuum.

As evidenced by those few Lords who had managed to perpetuate their spirits after physical death-foremost among them Emperor Vitiate, who was said to have lived a thousand years-the ancient Sith had come halfway across that bridge. But those few had been so focused on worldly power that they had ended up trapping themselves between realms. That they had never provided the Order with guidance from beyond attested to the fact that their influence had been negligible, and had long since faded from the world.

In the same way that the pre-Bane Sith had been responsible for their own extinction, the great dark side Lords of the past had doomed themselves to the nether realm through their attempts to conquer death by feeding off the energies of others, rather than by tapping the deepest strata of the Force and learning to speak the language of the midi-chlorians. Plagueis was finally learning to do that, and was just beginning to learn how to persuade, prompt, cajole, and coax them into action. Already he could command them to promote healing, and now he had been successful in enticing them to lower their defenses. If he could compel a murderous Yinchorri to become peaceful, could he-with a mere suggestion-accomplish the opposite by turning a peaceful being into a murderer? Would he one day be able to influence the leaders of worlds and systems to act according to his designs, however iniquitous? Would he one day conquer not only death but life, as well, by manipulating midi-chlorians to produce Forceful beings, even in the absence of fertilization, as Darth Tenebrous might have attempted to do with gene-splicing techniques and computers?

So the question you ask yourself is:

Was Plagueis genuinely more powerful when he could raise his own power/midiclorians and his life expectancy through entirely his own power? Something that no Ancient Sith could achieve?

Plagueis seemed to think so in 33 BBY:

Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn't master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.

Which puts the bed the idea that he thought he was below any Ancient Sith. Even if he did at one point, he clearly didn't near his prime.

Quorian Debatist wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:It makes sense though, in all honesty. Because even Plagueis approaching his prime was unable to shroud his powers from the senses of Jedi who were across the galaxy:

Darth Plagueis wrote:Palpatine paced away from Pestage. He opened himself fully to the Force, and was left staggered by an inrush of overwhelming malevolence. He planted his left hand on the desk for support and managed a stuttering inhale. Somewhere close by, the dark side was unspooling.

[...]

“Master, we need to leave at once,” Sidious said. “What I felt, the Jedi may have felt, and they will come.”

[...]

“I’m relieved to learn that I didn’t disappoint you, Master. But the Jedi summoned the police to the Fobosi district moments after we left. The plan is already endangered.”

Color rose in Plagueis’s cheeks. “The Jedi have long known that the dark side has been reawakened and cannot be checked by them. Now they have felt it on their own Coruscant.”

The literal very next line AGAIN:

"Master, we need to leave at once," Sidious said. "What I felt, the Jedi may have felt, and they will come."

"Let them," Plagueis rasped. "Let them inhale the aroma of the dark side."

"This carnage is beyond explanation. We can't be here."

After a moment, Plagueis nodded and summoned a gurgling voice. "Recall the Sun Guard. When they're done here..."

The key thing to note is that he was not in good condition.

Plagueis pressed his right hand to the right side of his neck to discover that a disk had made off with a considerable hunk of his jawbone and neck, and in its cruel passing had severed his trachea and several blood vessels. He cupped the Force against the injury to keep himself from lapsing into unconsciousness, but he fell to the floor regardless, with blood pumping onto the already slick stone circle.

[...]

Plagueis knew that he had lost a great deal of blood, and that one of his subsidiary hearts was in fibrillation. Sith techniques had helped him perform chemical cardioversions on his other two hearts, but one of them was working so hard to compensate that it, too, was in danger of becoming arrhythmic. Plagueis moved his eyes just enough to fix the locations of some of the two dozen assassins that had survived the Sun Guards' counterattack; then he dug deep into the Force and catapulted himself to his feet.

But managing to stagger Palpatine merely through feeling his power in this condition is a good feat. Good point.

And no, this wasn't Plagueis approaching his prime. This was in 52 BBY:

This was not the life he had imagined for himself ten years earlier when he had sworn loyalty to the dark side of the Force. His hunger to be in closer contact with the Force, to be an even more powerful Sith, knew no bounds. But how was he to know when he had arrived at some semblance of mastery? When Plagueis told him?

You had to actually go into the book and specifically read a line that states he was found out and then make your own connection to Kun while ignoring him purposefully not trying to hide his power. Every part of what you just said was basically a lie. Very impressive.

LadyKulvax wrote:Whereas Kun in a very weakened spiritual state was able to do both that and knock out Corran Horn, whilst maintaining direct domination over Kyp's mind. But this time, it was literally fifteen meters away from a hall full of Jedi:


One of which was Master Luke Skywalker, who had already been actively looking for him:



Would you now like me to explain why possibly capping out at Exar Kun means Vitiate murks Plagueis, by extension the brothers, and thus so would the Outlander?

Your scaling ain't got shit.

Kun empowering (and feeding off) Kyp to knock out essentially a Padawan in Horn - while trying to remain hidden - is not a proper avenue to compare either. If any Sith drops their facade they are automatically below Kun or something?



You've also created a sort of God paradox as well. What if someone were so powerful they couldn't hide? Below Kun as well? What if literally, any outburst was so powerful that they couldn't remain hidden while using any power?

What if the Darkstaff hiding while the Force tries to hide the Darkstaff; had a bad reaction and put Yoda in a coma across the galaxy? Sub-Kun level as well?

These esoterics displays are not good metrics. You know this.

Darth Plagueis, Darth Plagueis wrote:"Fvck it, y0l0, Yo Yoda! 2 vs 10,000! Fite me IRL!"

Quorian Debatist wrote:Glad to see you think Kun is sub-Vitiate and sub-Outlander though. My memory of this is hazy, but I believe you would put Arcann and Vaylin at or near Vitiate level as well. Arcann murks Kun I guess.

Quorian Debatist wrote:And since you turned me onto the Mortis arc, here's one more Kenobi feat that Maul scales above... many Kenobis in fact.
https://i.imgur.com/ejoSQ7D.mp4

For visual aid, let's open the Kenobi scale back up and see where this falls in:

*trimmed to stem the cancer*

So in combination with you tying The Ones to the unbalancing feat, Maul may very well scale above The Son. Interesting stuff AP.

The scales don't lie. Maul brothers stomp. 2ezGG