Re: Vader (Suited Prime) vs Tenebrous

May 21st 2020, 2:29 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

I’m not really interested in the author’s opinion, but not trying to kill an opponent does not somehow translate into not bringing your full strength to bare, which Vader is stated to do in some of the ROTJ supplementary sources, not to mention the massive amount of quotes cementing the two as equals.

ROTJ Vader didn't use telekinesis or throw things at Luke.

Also, Teneniel wasn’t trying to kill Luke, but rather capture him, as confirmed by the book (not that important but worth pointing out).

Not important. She was still trying to incapacitate Luke and was clearly not trying to test his abilities.

Let’s be clear, I’m not arguing Tenel Ka or Teneniel Djo are necessarily better than Vader, at least not based on this quote. All I’m saying is that Luke is undoubtedly an unreliable source if he’s suggesting Vader is incapable of throwing multiple objects at once.

This is illogical. Luke has only seen Vader use TK to throw objects once, and that was when he was throwing them like this:

Vader (Suited Prime) vs Tenebrous - Page 4 QuestionableOffensiveHake-small

Vader (Suited Prime) vs Tenebrous - Page 4 QuestionableOffensiveHake-small

I don't think it needs saying that Djo's was much more impressive.

As a result, this would call into question the Geth quote. As MP said previously, his knowledge of the force is limited, and that is the key.

Luke can't comment on Vader's mastery because he hasn't seen it. What he can comment is on his raw power. Nick Rostu can sense Vader's raw power, but can't sense his aptitude with telekinesis. That is what Luke is comparing here, not their raw strength in the Force. That's abundantly clear per the Geth quote.

A quote which is even more full of context than the one I brought up. Luke is so focused on Vader’s inner conflict in ROTJ that he does not acknowledge the possibility that he and his father may be equally as powerful.

Is this before or after he was rage amped and mused he could be =/> Vader? Because this is directly contradicted by the depictions of the fight.

Couldn’t that be what Lucas appreciated and approved about the novel rather than Vader being potentially able to dismiss Luke at will, especially when he thinks the ESB duel was a “slightly one-sided” sword fight?

But Luke didn't know that Vader was his father for the most part. Really for the fight part so that what it was happening he thought he was fighting his bitter enemy and so he was fighting as hard as he could. He thought he was fighting the man who killed his father, fighting the man who killed Obi-Wan Kenobi, fighting the man who, you know, would personify evil in the universe.

Two key things from this:

1) ESB Luke is fighting as hard as he can, and Vader still has a clear edge.

2) There's a habit of looking at a Lucas quote without looking at the surrounding context:

"At this point, Vader's plan really, now that he knows he's his son, is to convince him to come with him. Join the Dark Side and together they're going to overthrow the Emperor, which is the thematic devices used through the whole movies in terms of the Sith, which is Sith Lords are usually no more than two because if there are three, then two of them will gang up on one to try to become the dominate Sith. Anakin would have been able to do it if he hadn't been debilitated and now he's half machine and half man, so he's lost a lot of the power of the Force, and he's lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful then the Emperor.

You're doubtless going to counter this by saying something along the lines of "not trying to kill him didn't mean he wasn't bringing his full strength to bear". This is incorrect in this case, per the myriad of sources claiming Vader either beat Luke easily or was testing/toying with him. Second, there's the thematic intent of the film. This is the first phase, where Vader tests Luke in saber skill:

This fight between the two of them is a long fight, and to make it interesting and to make it progress, it goes through three different sets. One in the carbon freezing chamber,

The first phase - the carbonite freezing chamber - is a lightsaber duel, where Vader tests a Luke who is "fighting as hard as he can" and who is more motivated (and arguably fuelled by the dark side) as he fights the man responsible for everything bad in his life.

one down there below the carbon freezing chamber

The second phase is the Force phase, where Vader tests Luke's abilities in the Force. He fairly quickly overwhelms him while throwing objects one at a time, which Luke is unable to counter for long.

which allows us to get into this giant shaft that goes to the bottom of the city. So now we've got this shaft to deal with as a set, it gives us a chance to have these hanging in the abyss scenes, but it also makes the situation much more threatening and the fight more interesting, because they're fighting over an infinite space and it makes it more and more hopeless that Luke is going to get out of it, you know because he's getting more and more trapped.

The entire point of the fight is that it's meant to convey that Luke isn't going to win, and this becomes increasingly clear as the duel progresses (testing him in sabers when he's angry, then overwhelming him in the Force, then soundly driving him back and disarming him in the third). Vader is testing him to see his capabilities and whether he's able to help him defeat Sidious, so it goes through these two phases. In the third phase, Vader visibly starts cutting loose, constantly driving Luke back, forcing him on the defensive, and even knocking him down with his lightsaber to his throat. Luke then manages to hurt Vader, at which point Vader becomes angry and immediately ends the fight by severing Luke's hand through cho mai.

Throughout the fight, Vader is making no move to overpower and beat Luke into submission until the third phase, at which point even while still holding himself back and simply upping the attack to see Luke's response, he still soundly pushes him back and defeats him, even managing to perform cho mai on Luke, an especially difficult mark of contact to perform in a fast-paced fight.

Vader (Suited Prime) vs Tenebrous - Page 4 Image011

Fact Files further corroborates this, as do other sources:

Vader (Suited Prime) vs Tenebrous - Page 4 Scree138

Put all of this together, and it's fairly clear this "slightly one-sided sword fight" that Lucas references is against a Vader who wasn't going all out while Luke was "fighting as hard as he could".

May 21st 2020, 2:35 pm

bod slaugthering

May 21st 2020, 2:44 pm

Meatpants wrote:Some very low level Jedi can’t keep up with Vader’s speed? How is that impressive?

both of them could fight AOTC anakin evenly.

May 21st 2020, 2:47 pm

Jax never faced AOTC Anakin

May 21st 2020, 2:58 pm

CuckedCurry wrote:Jax never faced AOTC Anakin

but ferus did, iirc, so that kinda solves my problem regardless of jax doing it or not.

May 21st 2020, 3:15 pm

Ferus faced pre-Shmi’s death Anakin—pre and post are two different entities

May 22nd 2020, 1:20 am

CuckedCurry wrote:Ferus faced pre-Shmi’s death Anakin—pre and post are two different entities

Vader (Suited Prime) vs Tenebrous - Page 4 1289255181

May 22nd 2020, 1:33 am

The lord of hunger wrote:contradicted by this quotes

How is it contradicted? There are two universes: one is movies/CW only, the other is movies/CW + EU. The Holocron, which deals with the canonicity of EU material officially holds Lucas' words as word of God.

The lord of hunger wrote:also got a source that he stated he read a book or not?

Your friend SithSauce literally posted a quote on Page 2 saying George actually read the Leia book, plus he line-edited ROTS, and who knows what else. And the quote you just posted says Lucas has a lot of involvement in EU material as well. So like, he's everywhere, and his word is law.

---

@BoD

Posting one quote from Fact Files - an IU source - when there's a myriad of C-canon quotes saying different things isn't helping your case at all. Vader struggled in that fight, even if he was the clearly superior swordsman. Do you have anything other than a Fact Files quote to back up your position?

Oh, and Vader was rage-amped when he cut off Luke's hand.

May 22nd 2020, 9:16 am

Meatpants wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:contradicted by this quotes

How is it contradicted? There are two universes: one is movies/CW only, the other is movies/CW + EU. The Holocron, which deals with the canonicity of EU material officially holds Lucas' words as word of God.

the fact that george lucas considers his universe more importantly holds more weight especially once you consider his statements back it up to 1980 and kinda no his word is not god at all he have committed contradictions with the lore before.

The lord of hunger wrote:also got a source that he stated he read a book or not?

Your friend SithSauce literally posted a quote on Page 2 saying George actually read the Leia book, plus he line-edited ROTS, and who knows what else. And the quote you just posted says Lucas has a lot of involvement in EU material as well. So like, he's everywhere, and his word is law.

---where is the quote? and yes he worked on the EU but that doesnt mean he see it as a primary sourcematerial or in the same importance as his universe (the tv show one or the movies one)

May 22nd 2020, 11:14 am

Probably Tenebrous. I have “prime” Vader close to the other apprentices. And I have Plagueis closer to Sidious than the apprentices.

May 22nd 2020, 12:24 pm

The lord of hunger wrote:the fact that george lucas considers his universe more importantly holds more weight especially once you consider his statements back it up to 1980 and kinda no his word is not god at all he have committed contradictions with the lore before.

You're ignoring me. We follow the Holocron, which was the official authority on Legends continuity. In the Holocron, Lucas' material is G, and thus takes precedent over C-canon in contradictions.

If you wanna debate ignoring Lucas totally, that's fine, but Vader doesn't have anything even if that's the case.

The lord of hunger wrote:---where is the quote? and yes he worked on the EU but that doesnt mean he see it as a primary sourcematerial or in the same importance as his universe (the tv show one or the movies one)

You can go to Page 2 and read it.

Yeah, it's not in his universe, but he was also heavily involved in decision making for EU content, so he did care about it and kept a check on that universe as well.

Not really sure what point you're trying to make here. Lucas or not, Vader has no justification for being superior to Darth Bane - let alone Darth Tenebrous in Legends continuity.

May 22nd 2020, 12:35 pm

Meatpants wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:the fact that george lucas considers his universe more importantly holds more weight especially once you consider his statements back it up to 1980 and kinda no his word is not god at all he have committed contradictions with the lore before.

You're ignoring me. We follow the Holocron, which was the official authority on Legends continuity. In the Holocron, Lucas' material is G, and thus takes precedent over C-canon in contradictions.

yeah different types of canon that even chee declared that lucas wasnt that interested on

[Lucas’] canon – and when I say ‘his canon’, I’m talking about what he was doing in the films and what he was doing in The Clone Wars – was hugely important. But what we were doing in the books really wasn’t on his radar.”

–Leland Chee, SyFy’s “Fandom Files #13”, January 2018

If you wanna debate ignoring Lucas totally, that's fine, but Vader doesn't have anything even if that's the case.
yes it have been massively above kar vastor by only 18 bby and so on tenebrous is near featless

The lord of hunger wrote:---where is the quote? and yes he worked on the EU but that doesnt mean he see it as a primary sourcematerial or in the same importance as his universe (the tv show one or the movies one)

You can go to Page 2 and read it.

just saw it and read it probably the only book lucas read on the entirety of the eu.

Yeah, it's not in his universe, but he was also heavily involved in decision making for EU content, so he did care about it and kept a check on that universe as well.

yep he keep on check the eu and was involved in some novels but like i said previously he did not care that much of it,to him the most important things were the movies and the tv shows how many times do i need to repeat this?

Not really sure what point you're trying to make here. Lucas or not, Vader has no justification for being superior to Darth Bane - let alone Darth Tenebrous in Legends continuity.

my point was that you cannot take the word of lucas as if was some kind of god the creator have contradicted himself so many times that its really convoluted to take the statements he have made as consistent as for the debate i take the dude who have more feats than the one who only has hype.

May 22nd 2020, 1:44 pm

The lord of hunger wrote:my point was that you cannot take the word of lucas as if was some kind of god the creator have contradicted himself so many times that its really convoluted to take the statements he have made as consistent as for the debate i take the dude who have more feats than the one who only has hype.

Yeah, you're still not listening; just narrow-mindedly refusing to accept what I'm saying.

1. I... actually can take the word of Lucas as word of God, because official Legends continuity applies his word and written material as word of God.

2. I'm not aware of any situations where Lucas contradicts himself in regards to Vader. Can you please cite me some examples? Even then, we merely take his most current stance as fact.

3. I've already explained this in the thread, you've clearly not been following at all. Tenebrous doesn't have solely hype. He's literally the result of a thousands years of power increases from Bane, and has not only the same training that Bane passed down to Zannah, but even better in most respects. So Tenebrous is literally a Darth Bane with 1000 years worth of growth from master to apprentice. So, yeah, Tenebrous kinda does have feats, since he scales from all of Bane's. And as I said, Vader can't match Bane in feats, so it's just overkill really.

May 22nd 2020, 2:01 pm

@Meatpants Please prove why Vader can't match Bane in feats? If anything Vader is superior to him.

May 22nd 2020, 2:12 pm

Meatpants wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:my point was that you cannot take the word of lucas as if was some kind of god the creator have contradicted himself so many times that its really convoluted to take the statements he have made as consistent as for the debate i take the dude who have more feats than the one who only has hype.

Yeah, you're still not listening; just narrow-mindedly refusing to accept what I'm saying.

1. I... actually can take the word of Lucas as word of God, because official Legends continuity applies his word and written material as word of God.

quotes i presented you says otherwise

2. I'm not aware of any situations where Lucas contradicts himself in regards to Vader. Can you please cite me some examples? Even then, we merely take his most current stance as fact.

2005 cult of darth vader interview and so much other statements he have made

3. I've already explained this in the thread, you've clearly not been following at all. Tenebrous doesn't have solely hype. He's literally the result of a thousands years of power increases from Bane, and has not only the same training that Bane passed down to Zannah, but even better in most respects. So Tenebrous is literally a Darth Bane with 1000 years worth of growth from master to apprentice. So, yeah, Tenebrous kinda does have feats, since he scales from all of Bane's. And as I said, Vader can't match Bane in feats, so it's just overkill really.

yeah vader have the same type of scaling as being a banite sith lord add to that all his grow from the dark times era passing to the force unleashed and finally the ot and you got a fully fledged sith lord the most tenebrous can do is give him a good fight and thats it.

May 22nd 2020, 2:15 pm

How exactly does Vader get banite scaling?

May 22nd 2020, 2:18 pm

Seturna wrote:How exactly does Vader get banite scaling?

the knowledge he receive and the fact that he was being considered a rule of two sith lord along sidious

May 22nd 2020, 2:20 pm

The lord of hunger wrote:

Seturna wrote:How exactly does Vader get banite scaling?

the knowledge he receive and the fact that he was being considered a rule of two sith lord along sidious

Im fairly certain that to become a true banite you have to kill your master, neither Vader, Dooku or Maul killed Sidious. None of them gets banite scaling.

May 22nd 2020, 2:22 pm

Besides, Vader’s training was limited per Dark Lord:The Rise Of Darth Vader

May 22nd 2020, 2:22 pm

Seturna wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:

Seturna wrote:How exactly does Vader get banite scaling?

the knowledge he receive and the fact that he was being considered a rule of two sith lord along sidious

Im fairly certain that to become a true banite you have to kill your master, neither Vader, Dooku or Maul killed Sidious. None of them gets banite scaling.

the simple fact that numerous sources depict the rule of two to have been vanished after the death of darth vader and sidious gives you a idea that he gets banite scaling somehow before that.

May 22nd 2020, 2:23 pm

CuckedCurry wrote:Besides, Vader’s training was limited per Dark Lord:The Rise Of Darth Vader

well yeah during that timeframe we can know for sure if it was true after that period of time especially during the ot era.

May 22nd 2020, 2:23 pm

The lord of hunger wrote:

Seturna wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:

Seturna wrote:How exactly does Vader get banite scaling?

the knowledge he receive and the fact that he was being considered a rule of two sith lord along sidious

Im fairly certain that to become a true banite you have to kill your master, neither Vader, Dooku or Maul killed Sidious. None of them gets banite scaling.

the simple fact that numerous sources depict the rule of two to have been vanished after the death of darth vader and sidious gives you a idea that he gets banite scaling somehow before that.

Could you show one of these sources?

May 22nd 2020, 2:25 pm

Seturna wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:

Seturna wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:

Seturna wrote:How exactly does Vader get banite scaling?

the knowledge he receive and the fact that he was being considered a rule of two sith lord along sidious

Im fairly certain that to become a true banite you have to kill your master, neither Vader, Dooku or Maul killed Sidious. None of them gets banite scaling.

the simple fact that numerous sources depict the rule of two to have been vanished after the death of darth vader and sidious gives you a idea that he gets banite scaling somehow before that.

Could you show one of these sources?

Vader (Suited Prime) vs Tenebrous - Page 4 Vader%2Bis%2Ba%2BRule%2Bof%2BTwo%2BSith%2BLord

Vader (Suited Prime) vs Tenebrous - Page 4 4316143529313638416%253Faccount_id%253D1

May 22nd 2020, 2:28 pm

The lord of hunger wrote:

CuckedCurry wrote:Besides, Vader’s training was limited per Dark Lord:The Rise Of Darth Vader

well yeah during that timeframe we can know for sure if it was true after that period of time especially during the ot era.

Right, but he has no showings that support the notion that received *full* Banite training

May 22nd 2020, 2:30 pm

@The lord of hunger

I see