Vader (Suited Prime) vs Tenebrous

CuckedCurry wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:

CuckedCurry wrote:Besides, Vader’s training was limited per Dark Lord:The Rise Of Darth Vader

well yeah during that timeframe we can know for sure if it was true after that period of time especially during the ot era.

Right, but he has no showings that support the notion that received *full* Banite training

Does Sidious not say "now his true training can begin" at the end of the novel dear Curry?

CuckedCurry wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:

CuckedCurry wrote:Besides, Vader’s training was limited per Dark Lord:The Rise Of Darth Vader

well yeah during that timeframe we can know for sure if it was true after that period of time especially during the ot era.

Right, but he has no showings that support the notion that received *full* Banite training

actually there is sources depicting sidious completing the training of vader  so it can be possible actually it whould make sense in some ways

The G Canon Purist wrote:

CuckedCurry wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:

CuckedCurry wrote:Besides, Vader’s training was limited per Dark Lord:The Rise Of Darth Vader

well yeah during that timeframe we can know for sure if it was true after that period of time especially during the ot era.

Right, but he has no showings that support the notion that received *full* Banite training

Does Sidious not say "now his true training can begin" at the end of the novel dear Curry?

Yes, on page 319.

On page 330, Vader has already begun said training, saying: He was also married to Sidious, who doled out precious bits of Sith technique as if merely lending them—just enough to increase his apprentice’s power, without making him supremely powerful.

SithSauce wrote:@Meatpants Please prove why Vader can't match Bane in feats? If anything Vader is superior to him.

So, are you conceding on our other points? You're notorious for making claims, generally then ignoring those points when they're proven wrong, then jumping elsewhere and pretending like you never got challenged.

---

@LoH

quotes i presented you says otherwise

No, they don't. Official licensing policy and Lucas' direct involvement and direction for EU material prove this point. You can't keep saying "uh no".

2005 cult of darth vader interview and so much other statements he have made

So, making claims without citations? Can you provide the specific example?

And yeah, Vader doesn't get Banite scaling for obvious reasons that everyone else has addressed.

CuckedCurry wrote:

The G Canon Purist wrote:

CuckedCurry wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:

CuckedCurry wrote:Besides, Vader’s training was limited per Dark Lord:The Rise Of Darth Vader

well yeah during that timeframe we can know for sure if it was true after that period of time especially during the ot era.

Right, but he has no showings that support the notion that received *full* Banite training

Does Sidious not say "now his true training can begin" at the end of the novel dear Curry?

Yes, on page 319.

On page 330, Vader has already begun said training, saying: He was also married to Sidious, who doled out precious bits of Sith technique as if merely lending them—just enough to increase his apprentice’s power, without making him supremely powerful.

I did indeed forget about this page, thank you for enlightening me on it. Though I would be remiss not to inform you that Vader has the entire Jedi council archives (comparable to the banite archives) and his own agents constantly scouring the galaxy for darkside lore. Also, "doling out" precious bits of sith technique doesn't mean he didn't get the full training, I believe Dooku once said "a wise master does not reveal all his secrets too quickly" when speaking to Savage about the defense against force lightning. Similarly, Bane did not teach Zannah everything off the get-go, Plaguies didn't teach Sidious everything, and Sidious didn't teach Maul everything either. It seems to be a theme for ROT sith to train their apprentices slowly, and this is still 19 bby, this is still many many years before Vader's prime, so I find it unlikely he didn't get the full "banite experience" since Sheev muses "his true training can begin"

Okay, what's stopping Sheev from lying to Vader? His number one trait is being manipulative to the extreme, and we know his hope in Vader diminished quite rapidly when he realised how weak he really was.

What actual hard facts are there telling us Vader received the same training Maul did?

quotes i presented you says otherwise

No, they don't. Official licensing policy and Lucas' direct involvement and direction for EU material prove this point. You can't keep saying "uh no".


yes they do there are to different universes even if the lore compasses it all types of canon doesnt mean all lucas quotes can be taken generally in both continuities especially taken into consideration contradictions.

2005 cult of darth vader interview and so much other statements he have made

So, making claims without citations? Can you provide the specific example?
the 80% quote like it or not it provide a significant change of view of lucas towards the character 


And yeah, Vader doesn't get Banite scaling for obvious reasons that everyone else has addressed.

yes it gets unless its showed otherwise the very fact the rule of two died after the deads of sidious and vader gonna mean something you know?

LoH

yes they do there are to different universes even if the lore compasses it all types of canon doesnt mean all lucas quotes can be taken generally in both continuities especially taken into consideration contradictions.

You're just repeating yourself. The official licensing policy is that Lucas' word > any other continuity material. If Lucas contradicts himself, we take that into consideration on a case-by-case basis. You do not get to dictate what does or does not apply to Vader just because you don't like what his creator's direction was with him from a power/dueling perspective.

the 80% quote like it or not it provide a significant change of view of lucas towards the character

Yet it does not in any way contradict his previous comments. It would only mean that being 20% weaker than someone is a ragdoll+ tier gap.

yes it gets unless its showed otherwise the very fact the rule of two died after the deads of sidious and vader gonna mean something you know?

Vader being part of the "rule of two" doesn't mean he received full Banite training, especially when Sidious wasn't expecting Vader to overtake him at all.

Meatpants wrote:Okay, what's stopping Sheev from lying to Vader? His number one trait is being manipulative to the extreme, and we know his hope in Vader diminished quite rapidly when he realised how weak he really was.

What actual hard facts are there telling us Vader received the same training Maul did?

Proof you didn't even read the book. He said that to himself in his head, why would sidious lie to himself? This wasn't a counter anyway since absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence. Vader was a RoT sith, sidious claims his "true training will begin" that's all. I don't need to prove anything more, tell me what "cold hard facts" prove sidious didn't give Vader the same training as Maul?

Meatpants wrote:LoH

yes they do there are to different universes even if the lore compasses it all types of canon doesnt mean all lucas quotes can be taken generally in both continuities especially taken into consideration contradictions.

You're just repeating yourself. The official licensing policy is that Lucas' word > any other continuity material. If Lucas contradicts himself, we take that into consideration on a case-by-case basis. You do not get to dictate what does or does not apply to Vader just because you don't like what his creator's direction was with him from a power/dueling perspective.

its just in general stuff lucas s not that much of a reliable source even matt martin someone who have worked on lucasfilm states this

the 80% quote like it or not it provide a significant change of view of lucas towards the character

Yet it does not in any way contradict his previous comments. It would only mean that being 20% weaker than someone is a ragdoll+ tier gap.

yes it does any previous statements he make like the ones of 1977 and the ones when he literally talks about the power of the character have been contradicted by this quote and no the 20 percent less doesnt mean its a ragdoll tier gap its talks overall power when he get into the suit.

yes it gets unless its showed otherwise the very fact the rule of two died after the deads of sidious and vader gonna mean something you know?

Vader being part of the "rule of two" doesn't mean he received full Banite training, especially when Sidious wasn't expecting Vader to overtake him at all.

yes it does by this logic dooku or maul whould not have been received banite scaling too its logically that vader whould get him too and when did sidious didnt expect vader to betraying him since he was planning to overcame his master years prior the force unleashed game its clear prove of that.

@MeatPants I haven't conceded on anything, I was on mobile so I only wrote a short sentence. I may get back to you eventually soon.

Vader clearly received Banite training, maybe not to the extent Maul did; but how does Vader *scale* from Banite training? Banite scaling revolves around surpassing the master. At what point did Tenebrous become more powerful than Gravid? It’s impossible to determine.

It can be argued that tenebrous grow Up more powerful by the time of the plagueis and the tenebrous way novels timeframe 


The said can be said about plagueis and onwards.

@Meatpants
You're just repeating yourself. The official licensing policy is that Lucas' word > any other continuity material. If Lucas contradicts himself, we take that into consideration on a case-by-case basis. You do not get to dictate what does or does not apply to Vader just because you don't like what his creator's direction was with him from a power/dueling perspective.


Nobody has an issue with Lucas's stance on Vader. People just have an issue with how some people here interpret it. Being less powerful or being a shadow  compared to your prime self doesn't equate to being below every single Star Wars character imaginable. Especially when said prime version of the character was supposed to be on his way to becoming the most powerful force user in history.


Yet it does not in any way contradict his previous comments. It would only mean that being 20% weaker than someone is a ragdoll+ tier gap.


Which you've yet to prove. When has Lucas ever implied that 20% less powerful is the equivelent to a ragdoll gap? And if Lucas did indeed intend this, don't you think he would've have made it more obvious in the interview to showcase how truly  powerful Sidious is compared to Vader? The fact he didn't seems rather suspect.


Vader being part of the "rule of two" doesn't mean he received full Banite training, especially when Sidious wasn't expecting Vader to overtake him at all.


Ok, well about this?...


"He collected some of these Force adepts and took them to his citadel on Byss, where he initiated them in the powers of the dark side. All of those he taught, human or alien, were only taught enough to fulfilll Palpatine's wishes. He didn't want any of them rising up against him. Bad enough that Vader was as powerful as he was, though Palpatine was certain of Vader’s loyalty to the dark side".

More important, by the time Vader was capable of becoming a risk to his Mastery, Sidious would be fully conversant with the secrets Plagueis had spent a lifetime seeking–the power of life over death. There would be no need to fear Vader.

-- Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader


We have two quotes suggesting  Vader's power could be a potential threat to Sidious. Add that with the 20% quote and  Lucas's notion of Vader (who is already 20% less powerful than Sidious) and a half trained Luke potentially being enough to take down Sidious.

CuckedCurry wrote:Besides, Vader’s training was limited per Dark Lord:The Rise Of Darth Vader

which takes place in 19 BBY, yes

Tenebrous, easily

ROTJ Vader didn't use telekinesis or throw things at Luke. 

It was in response to the idea, apparently supported by the author, that Vader was not trying to kill Luke in ROTJ. If that’s not what you were arguing then it’s fair, but I doubt Luke is that far from Vader in ESB when a few months later they’re equals. 

Not important. She was still trying to incapacitate Luke and was clearly not trying to test his abilities. 

Why wouldn’t Vader do so though? He could very well test Luke’s abilities even if he’s going all-out or even aim to incapacitate him if he needs him alive, something that’s confirmed in Shadows of the empire (I’ll present the quote later). 

This is illogical. Luke has only seen Vader use TK to throw objects once, and that was when he was throwing them like this:

This is quite an ironic statement. By saying that Luke doesn’t consider the possibility that one might be able to throw more than one object at once you’re essentially arguing that Luke is incapable of basic logic. While it’s heavily doubtful, it still supports my argument that Luke’s judgment on his father’s abilities is anything but reliable. As an addendum, the idea that Teneniel’s feat is better than Vader’s is not at all unbelievable, as she scales directly above him. 

Luke can't comment on Vader's mastery because he hasn't seen it. What he can comment is on his raw power. Nick Rostu can sense Vader's raw power, but can't sense his aptitude with telekinesis. That is what Luke is comparing here, not their raw strength in the Force. That's abundantly clear per the Geth quote.

I would argue Vader to be a special case when it comes to the power he can wield compared to the power others have sensed in him, and you brought up the best example of this. Nick Rostu considers Vader’s presence far more powerful than that of Kar Vastor, while Vastor has power on the scale of Yoda, as well as feats that place him well above Vader at his peak. This would explain why Luke thinks Vader is on par with the likes of C’Baoth and can crush him in a contest of power, when it’s confirmed otherwise by OUU sources. 

Is this before or after he was rage amped and mused he could be =/> Vader? Because this is directly contradicted by the depictions of the fight. 

I’m referring to the ROTJ fight in general. The idea is that Luke is focused on his father’s inner conflict that he does not recognize the two were more or less evenly matched in their final fight. 

But Luke didn't know that Vader was his father for the most part. Really for the fight part so that what it was happening he thought he was fighting his bitter enemy and so he was fighting as hard as he could. He thought he was fighting the man who killed his father, fighting the man who killed Obi-Wan Kenobi, fighting the man who, you know, would personify evil in the universe.

I was assuming you were using the CoPl quote to place Vader far beyond Luke as of ROTJ, but given that isn’t the case no rebuttal is needed. The Geth quote doesn’t mention which duel Luke is talking about so I guess it’s left to one’s interpretation. That said, I disagree with the idea that the ESB fight was a complete stomp in Vader’s favor so I’m going to continue the debate from this point. 

1) ESB Luke is fighting as hard as he can, and Vader still has a clear edge.

Nobody ever questioned this, but I don’t see how that changes things. Most fights in the SW universe involve characters fighting as hard as they can. 

You're doubtless going to counter this by saying something along the lines of "not trying to kill him didn't mean he wasn't bringing his full strength to bear".

This is incorrect in this case, per the myriad of sources claiming Vader either beat Luke easily or was testing/toying with him. Second, there's the thematic intent of the film. This is the first phase, where Vader tests Luke in saber skill:

All those sources are not corroborated by Lucas or even Vader. 

The first phase - the carbonite freezing chamber - is a lightsaber duel, where Vader tests a Luke who is "fighting as hard as he can" and who is more motivated (and arguably fuelled by the dark side) as he fights the man responsible for everything bad in his life.

This is true, but as I will further reiterate ater, Lucas notes Luke has become good enough to face Vader, period. Him fighting as hard as he could is a specific element of that fight, not about Luke in general. 

The second phase is the Force phase, where Vader tests Luke's abilities in the Force. He fairly quickly overwhelms him while throwing objects one at a time, which Luke is unable to counter for long.

I would argue his inability to defend himself from Vader’s thrown objects would owe itself to his inexperience and lack of force knowledge, not vastly inferior power. Let’s not forget that Luke doesn’t learn to defend himself from a force choke, a fairy basic skill, until Dark Empire. 

which allows us to get into this giant shaft that goes to the bottom of the city. So now we've got this shaft to deal with as a set, it gives us a chance to have these hanging in the abyss scenes, but it also makes the situation much more threatening and the fight more interesting, because they're fighting over an infinite space and it makes it more and more hopeless that Luke is going to get out of it, you know because he's getting more and more trapped.

This description is good and all, but an appeal to the viewer’s perception of the movie does little to help your point, as it’s not supported by the sources, as will be established soon. 

The entire point of the fight is that it's meant to convey that Luke isn't going to win, and this becomes increasingly clear as the duel progresses (testing him in sabers when he's angry, then overwhelming him in the Force, then soundly driving him back and disarming him in the third). Vader is testing him to see his capabilities and whether he's able to help him defeat Sidious

And here we come to a key point. True, Vader needs to test his son’s skills, but as indicated by Vader’s inner thoughts, he needed Luke to possess the necessary skill and power that would eventually render him apt to join forces with Vader to overthrow the Emperor. Simply put, Vader needed his son to actually challenge him in a fight, which is what ultimately happened, as Vader himself can confirm. 

Spoiler:

Note that Lucas was heavily involved in Shadows of the empire, so he might have even approved this, as it seems to be supported by the 1999 lightsaber featurette. 

Fact Files further corroborates this, as do other sources:

Fact files are written by New Republic historians, who only know Vader through his reputation and Luke’s testimony. I would definitely choose Vader’s musings over them. 

Put all of this together, and it's fairly clear this "slightly one-sided sword fight" that Lucas references is against a Vader who wasn't going all out while Luke was "fighting as hard as he could".

What is clear is that you don’t remember what Lucas actually says about Luke’s skills in the lightsaber featurette. Here is the whole video: 


(Skip to 11:22) 

George Lucas wrote:Luke now, has become proficient enough to be able to face Darth Vader… so it’s a slightly one-sided sword fight, with Vader holding the advantage.

And then there’s the part you posted. 
So, despite Lucas calling the fight somewhat close, downright saying Luke has become good enough to give Vader and not mentioning him holding back we assume he’s referring to a Vader who’s going easy on his son because the viewer’s perception of the fight suggests so? I’m sorry but I’m not buying it. 
Ultimately, I think it’s fair to say the gap between Vader and Luke is noticeable, but nobody, besides a few sources which are not supported by the most relevant material, points to it being, potentially, an effortless victory for Vader.

@BoD
[hideedit]

Suited Prime Vader now has superior scaling. West End Games Supplemental Publications state that Coruscant Exar Kun and Ulic Quel Droma are roughly in the same ballpark of strength as Rebellion Era Emperor Palpatine and Vader, but less amicable towards each other.


When Darth Plagueis concluded that Naga Sadow (and therefore his successor and superior Freedon Nadd) was genuinely more powerful than he himself was at that time period, this created a comparable link between these eras. As a Pre-Prime Ulic was near completely matched in combat with Pre-Prime Kun (many years before this quote comparing the two groups is attributable to Kun and Ulic) who had by that time already far surpassed Nadd by a myriad of quotes, feats and implications, this should be enough to place Ulic many times more powerful than Naga Sadow. If we take the educated assumption (the only one we need make) that Plagueis himself was at least comparable to Darth Teneborus as of mid-novel, never-mind superior which is very much a probability, then because this version of Ulic is boxing in the same rough weight class as Darth Vader, he should be far superior to Darth Tenebrous

Decaf_Beverages wrote:

Don't suppose there's an english version?

@Zenwolf A more or less translation is this:

Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma

They are in the same court than Vader and Palpatine and are rather less kind than they. Drop these characteristics.


French grammar is different to ours so the words don't transfer over. I've done my best to smooth over some of them but I've avoided substituting out some words for accuracy.

BoD wrote:@Zenwolf A more or less translation is this:

Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma

They are in the same court than Vader and Palpatine and are rather less kind than they. Drop these characteristics.


French grammar is different to ours so the words don't transfer over. I've done my best to smooth over some of them but I've avoided substituting out some words for accuracy.

Thats not a very good translation. I've got mine that includes some context in this reply to Ant

@Decaf_Beverages I was going to translate it into a more natural English one but decided to keep it close to the original.

@SithSauce

SithSauce wrote:Nobody has an issue with Lucas's stance on Vader. People just have an issue with how some people here interpret it. Being less powerful or being a shadow  compared to your prime self doesn't equate to being below every single Star Wars character imaginable. Especially when said prime version of the character was supposed to be on his way to becoming the most powerful force user in history.

There are plenty of characters below TPM Kenobi, plenty. Remembering that Kenobi is the guy Mace is choosing to take on special missions along with other council members before the events of TPM. The only reason Qui-Gon kept him on as a Padawan was Kenobi's lack of focus on the living Force. In other words, Kenobi is a mega prodigy. The guys on the council who are better than Kenobi are elite tier Jedi, almost unprecedented in history.

Also, appealing to Vader being a shadow of Anakin as a general indicator is yet another attempt by your camp to shore Vader's combative ability up to an arbitrary level.

SithSauce wrote:Which you've yet to prove. When has Lucas ever implied that 20% less powerful is the equivelent to a ragdoll gap? And if Lucas did indeed intend this, don't you think he would've have made it more obvious in the interview to showcase how truly  powerful Sidious is compared to Vader? The fact he didn't seems rather suspect.

I already wrote two sizeable paragraphs on this exact point to you specifically that you never replied to. Not really helping your reputation here. Address those points that I already made instead of just positing the question again via proxy (you can find them on page 2).

SithSauce wrote:We have two quotes suggesting  Vader's power could be a potential threat to Sidious. Add that with the 20% quote and  Lucas's notion of Vader (who is already 20% less powerful than Sidious) and a half trained Luke potentially being enough to take down Sidious.

Lol, using a quote from Sidious that's what? A few weeks after ROTS? When Sidious was still unaware of what suited Vader was capable of.

Most of these points (plus a bunch more you've apparently forgotten about conveniently) have already been addressed on Page 2.

Theatricality and deception are powerful agents. You must become more than just a man in the mind of your opponents.

Decaf_Beverages wrote:Suited Prime Vader now has superior scaling. West End Games Supplemental Publications state that Coruscant Exar Kun and Ulic Quel Droma are roughly in the same ballpark of strength as Rebellion Era Emperor Palpatine and Vader, but less amicable towards each other.

If you take this to indicate Ulic = Vader and Exar = Sheev, the latter position has obviously been retconned into oblivion by Malak, Vitiate, and Sheev's numerous MVP statements (your quote is from 1998), leaving only Ulic = Vader as a plausible stance. Alternatively, the quote treats Vader and Sheev as a singular unit in terms of strength - or in other words, they're in the same tier - but then that would make the tier itself have an incalculably wide range, so Ulic and Exar's exact placements are entirely nebulous. I don't think it's a very concrete statement.