Vader (Suited Prime) vs Tenebrous

SithSauce wrote:yeh cuz Vader wasnt conflicted or anything like that....

I wrote a post to you on this subject, and you still haven't responded - you're just going around repeating the same debunked claims without acknowledging any of the counter-arguments. Do me a favour and address it please.

Set, The God of Chaos wrote:rote a post to you on this subject, and you still haven't responded - you're just going around repeating the same debunked claims without acknowledging any of the counter-arguments. Do me a favour and address it please.

If you can quantify what being 80% of the Emperor is, we'd all appreciate it. What scale is it? Lucas' tier system was one of magnitudes, is he thinking the same here? IIRC, George has also said that the Emperor could have snapped his fingers and killed Luke and Vader together. 

No he didn't. He said he could raise a hand "and that would be the end of it", meaning that he could stop Luke's saber strike with TK. It indicates a sizeable stomp gap, not a one-shot sized one. In the same passage, Lucas says it's conceivable that ROTJ Vader + Luke could take Sidious, be it down the line or right then and there:


“The core of all this thing is [that] the Emperor is the master and Vader is the apprentice,” Lucas would explain. “He knows that if he gets into a lazer fight with the Emperor, he won’t win. He knows his son can’t win. Neither one of them can beat the Emperor. Together they might. In the first sequel he reveals that when he says, ‘Together we can rule the universe.’ That’s still his plot in Jedi. It’s just that his son has said, ‘No, I’m not going to do that.’ So that’s a bit of a problem. “Vader also knows that the Emperor is toying with Luke. He has been told by the Emperor, ‘When he starts to strike me, you’re going to have to take him out.’ If Vader doesn’t block Luke’s lazer sword, the Emperor could just raise his hand and that would be the end of it. 

@MeatPants
I mainly addressed your question re what puts Vader above Bane but anyway...

Why do I need to quantify what 80% of the Emperor is? The fact that Lucas specfically chose to say Vader was "20% less powerful" than The Emperor rather than say he is 70% less powerful or 85% less powerful, is pretty indicative that he still thinks Vader is very powerful next to the Emperor regardless of his injuries. There is also no plausible way that Lucas is going to think that a random padawan who is years and years below ROTJ Sidious in force power is around the same level as Vader in regards to his standing with Sidious. Nor is he going to think that three jedi who got absolutely blitzed by Sidious are all indvidually 80% of Sidious's power. That just doesn't make sense logically.

Isn't that quote from the BTS of ROTJ? People here act like Lucas is a demi god who knows his Star Wars 100% and never once contradicted himself. It's highly plausible at one point Lucas thought Vader was nothing compared to Palpatine but years later when his Star Wars finally came into completion with ROTS, he changed his mind about Vader's standing next to Palpatine.

Quite ironic how you bring up the no feats argument when you are repping a character who basically doesn't have any... The acolades speak for themselves. And the fact that Vader was able to blitz several of those jedi given the state he was in was impressive.

The quote you provided doesn't prelude the idea that Vader was conflicted. Luke literally says after that small engagement happens, "Your thoughts betray you father, I feel the good in you, the conflict". Even if Vader wanted to defeat Luke that doesn't mean he was opperating at full power. The point is he can't since he still has feelings towards his son. I'd liken this to Anakin vs Obi Wan. Just because Anakin is far more powerful than Obi Wan and hell bent in killing him on Mustafar doesn't mean he can stomp him, and this is shown in ROTS. Even Gillard mentioned something about Anakin's emotions letting him down in his fight. Why can't the same be applied to Vader? Especially when we have this...

She pointed a finger at Luke, and before Luke even recognized her evil intent, a ripple of Force slammed into him. White lights exploded behind his eyes, and the right side of his face felt as if it had been smashed by a hammer. His left arm and right leg crumpled under their unbearable weight, and he dropped to the ground on one knee, stunned. All the noise and blaster fire and screams of pain died away, became a distant roaring. Gethzerion pointed at him again, twitched her finger, and his eyes lost focus. He felt the hammer blow to his left temple, dropped to his side and rolled over to his back, gasping. Luke stared up at the sky, watching streams of rocks hurtling above him—some propelled by the Force, others hurled by rancors.
Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed, pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion’s spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield.
So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me.

--The Courtship of Princess Leia



Moreover, there is actually evidence that Lucas approved of this idea of Vader not bringing his full power to bear.


We went through George Lucas and he signed off on each point. When he got done, he wrote me a little note that said, “Great job, I can’t wait to see it!” It was that easy to get through the approval process. Of course, once you write the story, they read to make sure you wrote what you said you would, and it’s up to their standards. Really, it was a painless process that was pretty much all of my creation and I just felt lucky and grateful George Lucas signed off on it!

-

But it is true. That’s the one thing I got hit with. You can’t judge fan reaction to a certain degree. I did get a fan letter from George Lucas! 

-


I thought a really interesting implication in TCOPL was that Luke realized that Darth Vader and Palpatine never sought to kill him, facing the full brunt of the dark side when the Nightsisters attack and pretty much feeling completely helpless.


The “contagonist”, which is what Darth Vader is called, there’s a person who works for an evil power, a dark lord who has his or her own agenda. It seemed obvious to me that Darth Vader looked at turning Luke very early on. Luke had never felt the full force of what the dark side is, at least in episodes 5 and 6. He was pulling his punches! That seemed pretty obvious to me. The idea that, “Gosh, somebody who doesn’t care for me at all who is with the dark side is trying to destroy me!” just seems sort of a logical next step in Luke’s character arc.


Lucas also considers TCOPL an official reference in regards to canon

In order to compile this article on Leia's life the main references used were the Star Wars Trilogy books by George Lucas, The Courtship of Princess Leia by Dave Wolverhampton and several comics produced by Dark Horse Comics; all these references are official and have been read by George Lucas


Finally we have Lucas flat out saying Vader is more powerful than Luke, perhaps indicating at full power he can defeat Luke.

Well, children love power because children are the powerless. And so their fantasies all center on having power. And who’s more powerful than Darth Vader, you know? And, some, you know, will be attracted to Luke Skywalker because he’s the good guy. But ultimately, we all know that Darth Vader’s more powerful than he is.

--https://billmoyers.com/content/mythology-of-star-wars-george-lucas/

@SithSauce: Stop ignoring HP's post just because debunking it isn't within your capabilities. It just makes you look bad.

No idea where I place vader anymore.

Azronger wrote:@SithSauce How many people genuinely think ROTJ isn't suit Vader's prime? If it's a fringe opinion, I don't see why it should be validated when the lore clearly indicates otherwise.

Right now the theory I considered was that he has more access to his power and potential in purge possibly going into tfu 3 but by ANH he "got old overnight" and is meh.

Though that theory is something even I struggle with not due to lack of evidence but because ROTJ Vader has solid feats that put him on par with Purge and TFU starkiller scaling.

In any case I still have a hypothetical non-conflicted not thinking about Luke ROTJ Vader as prime. ‍�

the salt. I guess I have to step in now too *sigh*

ScionOfSkywalker77 wrote:@SithSauce: Stop ignoring HP's post just because debunking it isn't within your capabilities. It just makes you look bad.

Not really your place to tell him what to do, tbh. If he doesn't want to, he doesn't have to. He probably knows how it looks. Construing that someone can't respond because it "isn't within your capabilities" is a pretty childish thing to say.

Not trying to defend SS here because I don't have a stake in this, but this was a very bitchy comment.

ScionOfSkywalker77 wrote:@SithSauce: Stop ignoring HP's post just because debunking it isn't within your capabilities. It just makes you look bad.

His post was from months ago and I currently have no interest in going back and finding it. No need to be a dick for no reason. Ever wondered why you've gotten banned a few times in the past?

@SithSauce

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t3042-darth-bane-and-zannah-vs-rotj-vader-and-rotj-luke

Saved you the trouble of finding it. Now, please, actually address the points - it's not even that long, and you seem perfectly willing to debate others on the subject - rather than just pretending like I never made it.

Vader

@BoD:

Not really your place to tell him what to do, tbh. If he doesn't want to, he doesn't have to. He probably knows how it looks. Construing that someone can't respond because it "isn't within your capabilities" is a pretty childish thing to say.

I'm not ordering him to do anything... I'm requesting that he responds and telling him why he should. There's nothing childish about that. Frankly, I'm tired of Vader supporters dodging out of addressing objective reasoning by simply saying they will and letting others forget about it, only to argue the same thing later as if nothing's changed and their argument wasn't debunked.

@SithSauce:

His post was from months ago and I currently have no interest in going back and finding it.No need to be a dick for no reason. Ever wondered why you've gotten banned a few times in the past?

I don't wonder because the mods have already explained it to me. And calling you out for being a worm isn't being a dick. It's just facts.

(HP's linked the post so you have no reason to bitch about finding it)

DC wrote:And calling you out for being a worm isn't being a dick. It's just facts.

In the words of Azronger: "Citation Needed"

Is Sithsauce objectively a worm? Otherwise you are using the term in a derogatory connotation, and it is a negative opinion you feel. But Facts and your feelings don't meld. Facts do not care about your feelings.



 That is not a "fact"

"a thing that is known or proved to be true" 

So unless you doxxed Sauce and found that this is what he looks like IRL:



You aren't speaking "facts", you are just being a "dick"

Vader

@BoD

BoD wrote:[No he didn't. He said he could raise a hand "and that would be the end of it", meaning that he could stop Luke's saber strike with TK. It indicates a sizeable stomp gap, not a one-shot sized one. In the same passage, Lucas says it's conceivable that ROTJ Vader + Luke could take Sidious, be it down the line or right then and there:

Well George is being quite vague here as to what he means *exactly*, and everyone can circle jerk their own interpretations, but what can't be denied is that the Emperor is in control, and Lucas makes that clear. Then again, being able to physically stop someone from swinging their lightsaber at you denotes a monstrous, exponential gap in power - which is exactly what we see when Luke fails to deflect the Emperor's lightning. It's the same impression we get from Yoda doing the exact same thing to Ventress in Season 1 of The Clone Wars. There's no comparison, and that's plain and simple. Would another Ventress make a difference? No. Would Luke and Vader together make a difference? No, because Luke is stated by a myriad of sources as equally powerful to his father. We also have no reason to believe elsewhere that Vader is anywhere near powerful enough where Luke's 0.1% contribution would mean the overthrow of the Emperor, so clearly Lucas is talking about the future in that regard, but that's an aside.

I know a few people from the Vader squad have attempted to argue Resurrection is applicable. Although I'm on the fence personally, it really is Vader's actual best feat. But that's ROTJ Vader against TPM Maul, and TPM Maul is clearly a bug compared to the Emperor in ROTJ, so even if you don't subscribe to Luke being as powerful as Vader, there's no way the two of them together can challenge the Emperor. Putting all this together, we can deduce that the Emperor could wave his finger and atomise both of them.

---

@SithSauce

SithSauce wrote:Why do I need to quantify what 80% of the Emperor is? The fact that Lucas specfically chose to say Vader was "20% less powerful" than The Emperor rather than say he is 70% less powerful or 85% less powerful, is pretty indicative that he still thinks Vader is very powerful next to the Emperor regardless of his injuries. There is also no plausible way that Lucas is going to think that a random padawan who is years and years below ROTJ Sidious in force power is around the same level as Vader in regards to his standing with Sidious. Nor is he going to think that three jedi who got absolutely blitzed by Sidious are all indvidually 80% of Sidious's power. That just doesn't make sense logically.

Well first off, he says "maybe 20% less" - "maybe" being the key word here - so him spitballing a number off the bat isn't the same as him saying on multiple occasions that Qui-Gon and Kenobi are "faster" than Vader, and Jedi "in their prime" - unlike Ben, Luke and Vader. Then, we have the problem again of how we *quantify* what Lucas said. See, this is a problem I've noticed regularly with Vader debaters; they want to use vague power intent to shore Vader up to an arbitrary power level that they claim is "about right, or about what Lucas intended".

You have to look at this from a factual viewpoint. Imagine we have two lines of thought: one is facts and demonstrations, the second is perceived intent. Examining the first line of thought first, we have a myriad of statements telling us Luke is equal to his father in actualised Force power. Even if you don't sub to that, we know from what I discussed above that Vader has nothing to suggest he could take on the Emperor with Luke by his side, nor does Vader have any other showings that would indicate a power level even remotely close to the Emperor. At best, he beats TPM Maul by the skin of his teeth, but that still isn't enough because we know the Emperor would be fully capable of ragdolling Vader without a struggle in that case. So, our conclusion from the first line of thought is that Vader is not comparable to the Emperor, is more than a ragdoll tier gap away from him, and has no hope of contending with Sidious in any way whatsoever. Nor does he have any showing suggesting he can even contend with someone like Dooku or Windu. Now, the second line of thought is "hey, Lucas said Vader is maybe 20% less than the Emperor". Okay, that may suggest relative closeness if we assume Lucas wasn't throwing out a random number at the time. The problem with this is that the first line of thought is still 100% factual and that Lucas' words don't actually contradict it. All it says is that being 20% less than someone is a ragdoll tier gap+. That's it. Lucas never says Vader could contend with the Emperor, or that the Emperor could or couldn't ragdoll Vader (though he certainly implies that the Emperor could). So, both lines of thought coexist without contradiction.

That is why you fail.

SithSauce wrote:Isn't that quote from the BTS of ROTJ? People here act like Lucas is a demi god who knows his Star Wars 100% and never once contradicted himself. It's highly plausible at one point Lucas thought Vader was nothing compared to Palpatine but years later when his Star Wars finally came into completion with ROTS, he changed his mind about Vader's standing next to Palpatine.

Show me where he states this and I'll agree.

SithSauce wrote:Quite ironic how you bring up the no feats argument when you are repping a character who basically doesn't have any... The acolades speak for themselves. And the fact that Vader was able to blitz several of those jedi given the state he was in was impressive.

This is a common misconception. Tenebrous does have feats. He literally scales directly from Bane, so he has all of Bane's feats, he has his master's feat of penetrating the light side bubble put up by the Jedi, and he also holds up a cathedral-sized dome collapsing whilst simultaneously deflecting an explosion that floored Plagueis. He also considered Banite teaching a joke that was child play, this guy isn't a joke. As far as I see it, being way more powerful than Bane, who has better feats than Vader is a lot more impressive than anything Vader can bring to the table.

I don't care what state Vader was in, or that he blitzed no-name Jedi's with accolades. Prove to me that this feat is impressive. If I had a feat of Qui-Gon blitzing those same Jedi, it would be totally irrelevant because they have no feats. There's 10,000 Jedi, and the Jedi we usually talk about on the forum are in the top 1% as combatants. You could be one of the best swordsmen in the Order and still be trash tier to Quinlan Vos.

SithSauce wrote:The quote you provided doesn't prelude the idea that Vader was conflicted. Luke literally says after that small engagement happens, "Your thoughts betray you father, I feel the good in you, the conflict".

Sure, but what is necessarily precluding Vader being conflicted internally yet also bringing his full power to bear? Luke's dialogue doesn't override OOU sources that contradict them, "more deadly invincibility than ever"; "Darth Vader brings his full strength and power against the younger man"; "this is a battle of equals"; "Vader discovered that Luke was his match." etc. Your other comparisons are meaningless because they don't apply to this fight, and we already have many quotes telling us Vader is at his full power in the battle.

The novel thing is just wrong for a number of reasons.

(1) There's no evidence whether he's referring to ESB, ROTJ or both.

(2) It's Luke's opinion, and we know he's had some pretty iffy and wrong opinions on various things because he doesn't understand the Force like Yoda or Ben.

(3) Lucas approving the book is not evidence of him directly approving any implications that this is referring to the ROJ fight nor any personal opinions of the author.

SithSauce wrote:Finally we have Lucas flat out saying Vader is more powerful than Luke, perhaps indicating at full power he can defeat Luke.

He also says nobody is more powerful than Vader, and the context is about kids liking SW and why it's appealing to them.

@SithSauce 
Using the Courtship of Princess Leia actually works against Vader. In the novel, Luke notes Teneniel Djo was a lot better than Vader at applying TK in a fight: 

CoPl wrote:Lightning crackled overhead and a dozen small boulders blasted toward Luke, hurtling through the air. Vader had tried similar tricks, but Luke reflected woefully that Vader hadn't been nearly as good at it. He swung wildly with his lightsaber, bursting several pieces of rock, but one caught him in the chest, throwing him backward a pace. Repulsed by the witches.

Djo being a lowly Dathomiri who at the time was barely 18 years old, rivaled in potential by her daughter Tenel Ka, a somewhat-above-average jedi in Luke’s new order. Of course, this is just Luke’s opinion, so feel free to disregard it. But keep in mind that the same can be said about the quote you posted.

Lightning crackled overhead and a dozen small boulders blasted toward Luke, hurtling through the air. Vader had tried similar tricks, but Luke reflected woefully that Vader hadn't been nearly as good at it. He swung wildly with his lightsaber, bursting several pieces of rock, but one caught him in the chest, throwing him backward a pace. Repulsed by the witches.

Two problems with this:

1) The author has repeatedly reiterated that Vader wasn't trying to kill him, whereas Djo was. Vader isn't going to go all out on someone he's trying to recruit, not kill, especially when he was testing Luke's abilities.

2) Luke later claims Vader could have stomped him with the Force in a similar way to Geth, so he's simply saying that this is at an intensity that he hasn't seen Vader replicate (which is true - Vader threw objects at him one at a time, not all at once like he's been shown in the past to be capable of). Luke's opinion here is perfectly valid: the context, however, is key to understanding the quote.

imagine still thinking that resurrection takes place before rotj

The lord of hunger wrote:imagine still thinking that resurrection takes place before rotj

It takes place right before ANH.

@everyone.

The author has repeatedly reiterated that Vader wasn't trying to kill him, whereas Djo was

I’m not really interested in the author’s opinion, but not trying to kill an opponent does not somehow translate into not bringing your full strength to bare, which Vader is stated to do in some of the ROTJ supplementary sources, not to mention the massive amount of quotes cementing the two as equals. 
Also, Teneniel wasn’t trying to kill Luke, but rather capture him, as confirmed by the book (not that important but worth pointing out). 

Vader isn't going to go all out on someone he's trying to recruit, not kill, especially when he was testing Luke's abilities.

 
Let’s be clear, I’m not arguing Tenel Ka or Teneniel Djo are necessarily better than Vader, at least not based on this quote. All I’m saying is that Luke is undoubtedly an unreliable source if he’s suggesting Vader is incapable of throwing multiple objects at once. As a result, this would call into question the Geth quote. As MP said previously, his knowledge of the force is limited, and that is the key. 

Luke later claims Vader could have stomped him with the Force in a similar way to Geth, so he's simply saying that this is at an intensity that he hasn't seen Vader replicate

A quote which is even more full of context than the one I brought up. Luke is so focused on Vader’s inner conflict in ROTJ that he does not acknowledge the possibility that he and his father may be equally as powerful. Couldn’t that be what Lucas appreciated and approved about the novel rather than Vader being potentially able to dismiss Luke at will, especially when he thinks the ESB duel was a “slightly one-sided” sword fight? Honestly, there’s a higher chance Lucas supports the Teneniel statement rather than this.
@BoD

Latham2000 wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:imagine still thinking that resurrection takes place before rotj

It takes place right before ANH.

ik but you know some consider it to be rotj timeframe 

infinite pepes

The lord of hunger wrote:imagine still thinking that resurrection takes place before rotj

It's advertised as ROTJ Vader, the timeline is irrelevant since it isn't in the timeline.

Either way, Vader's growth from ANH to ROTJ, while significant, wouldn't put him *that* far above Maul; certainly not enough to justify him being Dooku level, for instance.