ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion

For what it's worth:

The source? Might have some other things of interest

LOTL wrote:The source? Might have some other things of interest

It's the Vehicles Collection. @Greysentinel365 can provide the issue number. I believe that's all it has to say on the topic of this fight though.

I don't think there's any doubt that Sidious manipulated events to his own ends. That doesn't mean Windu didn't legitimately match or disarm him.

SithArchaeologist wrote:I don't think there's any doubt that Sidious manipulated events to his own ends. That doesn't mean Windu didn't legitimately match or disarm him.

I don't think Lucas intended for him to throw the fight except in the lightning exchange but it's possible Stover had Sidious throw the fight at the last minute. We have Sidious "hesitating" out of fear of slipping off the ledge of the open window causing him to divert some of his Force speed into a Force grip giving Mace just the opening he needed to disarm him. Except as we learn a few passages later Palpatine was never afraid at all - it was Anakin's fear Mace was sensing. So why did Sidious hesitate? We're never given an explanation but the only logical conclusion I can come up with is that Sidious left himself exposed deliberately in a last minute improvisation. He certainly didn't plan this from the beginning however or why try to blow Mace out the window - there's no guarantee he would have saved himself - if Mace being alive was essential to his plan. Mace can certainly rival him in a lightsaber duel and he almost certainly won legit going by Luca's vision but there's grounds for him throwing the fight in the novel. Just my take.

Kilius wrote:

SithArchaeologist wrote:I don't think there's any doubt that Sidious manipulated events to his own ends. That doesn't mean Windu didn't legitimately match or disarm him.

I don't think Lucas intended for him to throw the fight except in the lightning exchange but it's possible Stover had Sidious throw the fight at the last minute. We have Sidious "hesitating" out of fear of slipping off the ledge of the open window causing him to divert some of his Force speed into a Force grip giving Mace just the opening he needed to disarm him. Except as we learn a few passages later Palpatine was never afraid at all - it was Anakin's fear Mace was sensing. So why did Sidious hesitate? We're never given an explanation but the only logical conclusion I can come up with is that Sidious left himself exposed deliberately in a last minute improvisation. He certainly didn't plan this from the beginning however or why try to blow Mace out the window - there's no guarantee he would have saved himself - if Mace being alive was essential to his plan. Mace can certainly rival him in a lightsaber duel and he almost certainly won legit going by Luca's vision but there's grounds for him throwing the fight in the novel. Just my take.

IMO, there's no way around the fact that Windu legitimately matched Sidious. We have quotes that say Sidious "unleashed his full fury" from the very start of the fight and that he used a "Dark Side confusion haze" to kill the B-team, but it didn't affect Windu. During the fight itself Windu was stated to be redirecting Sidious' power "effortlessly" and the actual dueling was set in the background for him, as his focus was on finding Shatterpoints. During the lightning confrontation, Sidious was obviously feigning weakness, but as the source Az provided above states, he was still trying to kill Windu with his lightning. And in the movie (which overrides the novel's contradictory report of this segment of the fight) Windu was able to successfully fend off Sidious' lightning.

Now, that said, I think there are arguments to be made either way as to whether or not Sidious actually lost the dueling portion of the fight. Whether or not he allowed himself to be disarmed, however, doesn't change the fact that Windu was matching him blow for blow throughout the fight.

Mace was legitimately contending with Sidious via Vaapad, I don't think anyone really questions that. But Sidious throws the fight. Shatterpoint allows you to see outcomes, and shows you how those outcomes can be achieved. The shatterpoint wasn't wrong. Windu merely played out that shatterpoint, which was Anakin. Sidious had no fear, hence why his diversion of power on the ledge is clearly a setup.

MP wrote:Mace was legitimately contending with Sidious via Vaapad, I don't think anyone really questions that. But Sidious throws the fight. Shatterpoint allows you to see outcomes, and shows you how those outcomes can be achieved. The shatterpoint wasn't wrong. Windu merely played out that shatterpoint, which was Anakin. Sidious had no fear, hence why his diversion of power on the ledge is clearly a setup.

This isn't congruent with Sidious actively attempting to kill Windu several times, even after Anakin arrived. This is confirmed via sources that Sidious had lethal intent.

Can you provide the specific lines?

Well, for starters, there's the quote Az showcased at the top of the page. The language throughout most of it actively supports the idea that everything was coordinated by Sidious. However, notice a change when it talks about Palpatine's lightning attacks. "There he seemed to gain the upper hand. Palpatine attempted to use Force lightning to strike down Master Windu, but it backfired." Despite the source's insistence that Palpatine was in control of the situation, it also states that he had lethal intent while attacking Windu with the lightning.

I can try and get screenshots of the other sources tonight. Notably, there's one that states Sidious "unleashed his full fury" at the onset of the fight. If Windu can take Sidious' full fury without missing a beat, that throws doubt onto how much Sidious was truly in control of the fight.

Well there's a lot of sources on the fight. The one Az provided is but one of many, and all say different things. I'm quite sure by now that, had all the source holistically confirmed that Sidious wasn't throwing the fight, some of the more experienced members here would be arguing it - but they don't. At least as far as I know.

The thing is Darth Bane can use Vaapad too so he can probably beat Sidious 

OT: Stover likes Mace but in reality Sheev let it happen.

As much as I like to think that Mace has no limits, I strongly believe that Palpatine had it under control. I think we all agree that the timing and nature of him getting disarmed is too perfect to be a coincidence (especially since this is arguably the most calculative character in the lore), and in order to have such control over a fight, you should at least be considerably better than your opponent. It saddens me to say that even as of RotS, Palpatine was beyond Mace.

It’s obvious that Windu is tailing behind Sidious and Yoda in RotS, but he can still contend on that level, albeit on the losing side ultimately.

I prefer the movie version because it shows that Palpatine is adaptable at his environment. Pretending is such a cliché.

Vader's Legacy wrote:The thing is Darth Bane can use Vaapad too so he can probably beat Sidious 

OT: Stover likes Mace but in reality Sheev let it happen.

He can't. Drew said he mistakenly wrote Vaapad. And that what he meant was actually Juyo.

Book of Sith actually canonized that error.

Mace beat Sidious in a lightsaber duel, but it exhausted him. Him and Sidious then had their angtsy lightning exchange during which Mace was slowly being overpowered by Sidious drawing on reserves and was about to die until Sidious pretended to be weak. The film has a slightly different depiction (it shows Mace powering through the lightning) but emphasises Sidious pretending to be weak. However, it doesn't show Mace being overpowered even before Sidious pretended to be weak, albeit it does have Mace clearly struggling to fend off the full power lightning (as he should).

I view it as Mace was slightly better as a swordsman/combatant (controlling the flow and setting of the duel) whereas Sheev was more powerful. Obviously people will disagree with me and say either A) Sidious is equal to Mace and Yoda in swordsmanship, or B) Mace is weaker than Yoda and Sidious by an undefined margin (which I disagree with), but what the hell.

BoD wrote:A) Sidious is equal to Mace and Yoda in swordsmanship

It is pretty much a fact that Yoda is a superior duelist than Sidious.

BoD wrote:Mace beat Sidious in a lightsaber duel, but it exhausted him. Him and Sidious then had their angtsy lightning exchange during which Mace was slowly being overpowered by Sidious drawing on reserves and was about to die until Sidious pretended to be weak. The film has a slightly different depiction (it shows Mace powering through the lightning) but emphasises Sidious pretending to be weak. However, it doesn't show Mace being overpowered even before Sidious pretended to be weak, albeit it does have Mace clearly struggling to fend off the full power lightning (as he should).

I view it as Mace was slightly better as a swordsman/combatant (controlling the flow and setting of the duel) whereas Sheev was more powerful. Obviously people will disagree with me and say either A) Sidious is equal to Mace and Yoda in swordsmanship, or B) Mace is weaker than Yoda and Sidious by an undefined margin (which I disagree with), but what the hell.

I mean, if we want to be technical, it comes down to environmental and stylistic factors at this level. But the novel does contextualise the disarm, which was achieved through Anakin's fear.

HellfireUnit wrote:

BoD wrote:A) Sidious is equal to Mace and Yoda in swordsmanship

It is pretty much a fact that Yoda is a superior duelist than Sidious.

Not really. Yoda had an inherent stylistic advantage and capitalized on it with a sudden burst of speed. They're equals in raw skill.

BoD wrote:Mace beat Sidious in a lightsaber duel, but it exhausted him. Him and Sidious then had their angtsy lightning exchange during which Mace was slowly being overpowered by Sidious drawing on reserves and was about to die until Sidious pretended to be weak. The film has a slightly different depiction (it shows Mace powering through the lightning) but emphasises Sidious pretending to be weak. However, it doesn't show Mace being overpowered even before Sidious pretended to be weak, albeit it does have Mace clearly struggling to fend off the full power lightning (as he should).

I view it as Mace was slightly better as a swordsman/combatant (controlling the flow and setting of the duel) whereas Sheev was more powerful. Obviously people will disagree with me and say either A) Sidious is equal to Mace and Yoda in swordsmanship, or B) Mace is weaker than Yoda and Sidious by an undefined margin (which I disagree with), but what the hell.

There are a bazillion sources that have Mace and Sheev as equals in skill, including the novelization. And per the novel, Mace only won because he was able to augment himself further by drawing on Anakin's fear with Vaapad.

BoD wrote:Mace beat Sidious in a lightsaber duel, but it exhausted him. Him and Sidious then had their angtsy lightning exchange during which Mace was slowly being overpowered by Sidious drawing on reserves and was about to die until Sidious pretended to be weak. The film has a slightly different depiction (it shows Mace powering through the lightning) but emphasises Sidious pretending to be weak. However, it doesn't show Mace being overpowered even before Sidious pretended to be weak, albeit it does have Mace clearly struggling to fend off the full power lightning (as he should).

I view it as Mace was slightly better as a swordsman/combatant (controlling the flow and setting of the duel) whereas Sheev was more powerful. Obviously people will disagree with me and say either A) Sidious is equal to Mace and Yoda in swordsmanship, or B) Mace is weaker than Yoda and Sidious by an undefined margin (which I disagree with), but what the hell.

Both were not exhausted from the duel as the novel notes.
The fight would last for as long as Palpatine’s power was available for Mace to draw on.

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.
Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift.
The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source.

Mace became exhausted from Sidious’ lightning barrage which was powerful enough to go “beyond vaapad”. This broke the perfect impasse between them. Mace could not draw enough power from Sidious here to stalemate the barrage. Because of this, Mace had to draw more power from his own force reserves (not Palpatine's) to deal with the lighting and he quickly exhausted himself in the process.  Palpatine would of succeeded in overpowering him too if he continued the barrage because Palpatine was never exhausted, even after the duel (he was faking it), where as Mace was stated to be reaching his breaking point before Sidious conveniently stopped the barrage.

It is also possible, going by the novel, that Palpatine’s inner darkness became greater than Mace’s when he fired the lighting at him. Because Vaapad is not strictly just feeding of the power or rage of another opponent; the inner darkness of the fighters also plays a factor. When Mace told Sidious that he was sensing his fear, which was really Anakin’s, it is possible that this made Sidious angry enough to the point where his inner darkness superseded Mace’s, which allowed Sidious to start overpowering him with lighting. The other possibility is simply that Sidious' lightning is beyond the ability of a lightsaber to absorb which I think is more likely.  

Also we have no idea if Mace was being nearly overpowered by Sidious' Lightning or not in the film. There's no way of knowing.

Even going by the film Sidious holds his blade out at Mace when he leaves an opening but doesn't go for the kill which to me says that in the initial bout he was toying. I think once Mace got Vaapad going it became an actual fight. 

I perfect summary of the fight is in the film of Sidious not only choosing not to strike Mace down when he had the chance but also afterwards when Mace as a result gets ahold of him and Sidious is visibly thinking: "Oh fuck". This basically sums up Sidious not fighting at his full capacity at first but having to once Mace gets amped. Even then in the comic Mace says that the lightning is too strong and both the novel and the comic have Sidious TKing Mace. While he's only TK'd in the novel once he leaves an opening I'm still inclined to believe that under normal circumstances Sidious > Mace in the Force. Sidious was also never truly defenseless with his lightning.

Overall, while an impressive showing for Mace that earns its own section in respect threads going by what's shown in the film I'd say that Sidious at least initially was holding back.

TheNuisanceBird wrote:Even going by the film Sidious holds his blade out at Mace when he leaves an opening but doesn't go for the kill which to me says that in the initial bout he was toying. I think once Mace got Vaapad going it became an actual fight. 

I perfect summary of the fight is in the film of Sidious not only choosing not to strike Mace down when he had the chance but also afterwards when Mace as a result gets ahold of him and Sidious is visibly thinking: "Oh fuck". This basically sums up Sidious not fighting at his full capacity at first but having to once Mace gets amped. Even then in the comic Mace says that the lightning is too strong and both the novel and the comic have Sidious TKing Mace. While he's only TK'd in the novel once he leaves an opening I'm still inclined to believe that under normal circumstances Sidious > Mace in the Force. Sidious was also never truly defenseless with his lightning.

Overall, while an impressive showing for Mace that earns its own section in respect threads going by what's shown in the film I'd say that Sidious at least initially was holding back.

Agree. I put the film above the novels. Sidious was toying at the start, could've killed Windu in the first 30 seconds or so, but ultimately let his overconfidence (like all Sith let get the best of them) be his downfall in terms of sabers. I do believe the "I'm too weak" was a ploy, and that Sidious could've ended Windu with his force powers had Anakin never arrived.