Yoda and Office Windu vs ROTS Sidious and MFV

Standard rules

If it sticks to duelling, team 1. Either of team 1 can eventually take either of team 2. 

If the Force comes into it, team 2 if team 1 has no prior knowledge.

Team 1

I think the Jedi would take it narrowly due to Anakin fucking up.

Anakin/Vader is a "tier 9" according to Gillard, because he uses the Dark Side as a shortcut. Alternatively, Anakin is accoladed as being either as powerful as Yoda and Sidious, or more powerful than them, although Yoda and Sidious themselves have accolades making them more powerful. Sidious believes that Vader "will" become more powerful than him, implying he thinks he isn't there yet. In any case, Anakin/Vader have, for all intents and purposes, the same raw power as Sidious and Yoda.

What he lacks is what Gillard refers to as the "mental side" of being a tier 9, which is another way of saying Force Knowledge or Mastery. Recall the quote stating that Yoda is as powerful as Sidious thanks to his "knowledge of the Force".

Yoda's knowledge of the Force makes him just as powerful as Darth Sidious.​
--Mysteries of the Jedi​

Another insight we have into the power dynamic is Yoda believing that Kenobi would surely die if he tried to fight Sidious, or accompanied Yoda to fight him... but he was alright with sending him to fight Vader. Why is that?

I think because for a while we've had the whole thing backwards. Vader was not a "hindered tier 9" being matched by a tier 8. Vader was an unhindered tier 9 at the apex of his power according to numerous quotes, including quotes stating that he was actually drawing on the anguish caused by him burning his relationships with Padme and Obi-Wan to further fuel his anger. However, Vader simply lacked the same control of that power which Yoda and Sidious had.

We know Mace and Obi-Wan start RotS as "8s" in Gillard's mind. We also know that "you have to be Yoda or Mace Windu to compete with the Emperor". That rules out both Anakin and Obi-Wan. Mace, being an "8 bordering on a 9", then, being able to match Sidious makes sense in light of the Vaapad shenanigans - he gained control over his darkness. Obi-Wan himself undergoes a mid-fight transformation where he "lets go" of all of his attachments, chief among them his attachments to both life itself and Anakin. He goes from nearly having his arms broken by Vader's strikes and blasted around to matching Vader's strength and deflecting his blasts. We also have quotes stating outright that Obi-Wan and Vader drew on the Force unlike they had ever before during that fight, and were equally matched.

What we're essentially looking at, then, are two 9s who got there without shortcuts (Yoda and Sidious), an 8 finally joining the 9s once he masters his power (Mace), an 8 taking a shortcut to join the 9s by embracing his raw power without mastering it fully (Vader), and an 8 who has mastered the power in his possession, and perhaps even making it to the threshold of the vaunted tier 9 himself in the process (Obi-Wan).

I think it's far more likely that Vader was always Obi-Wan level, which is actually pretty impressive anyway given how powerful Obi-Wan is, rather than him being Sidious level but being "hindered" specifically while fighting Obi-Wan. That is to say, Vader was never hindered - it's just that he never actually got to the level of the three other characters in this thread - the power was there, but he couldn't yet control it. This idea is supported by another quote stating that Ben Kenobi is "still Vader's match", meaning, insofar as Ben was Vader's match in ANH, Obi-Wan was Vader's match in RotS.

Although Obi-Wan is still a match for Darth Vader, he allows himself to be killed in the duel, giving Luke and the Rebels precious time to escape.
--Mysteries of the Jedi

Vader was always more powerful than Obi-Wan, but simultaneously, he was always matched by him. And he was always as powerful as Yoda or Sidious, but he had never had enough control over that power to match them. He was never hindered because, for that to be true, by definition, he would have to have displayed a level of power which he then faltered from - but in reality, Mustafar Vader is the most powerful version of Vader we have ever witnessed, whose power has grown over the course of RotS, who is drawing on the Force more deeply than ever, and who is even drawing on the anguish associated with fighting Obi-Wan to fuel his power - he was already able to take his inner anguish to fuel his power against Dooku.

But that’s not really true, Obi-Wan thought as he ducked and wove and parried. Both he and Anakin felt the anguish of their need to kill the other. But Anakin had turned to the dark side, and despair and pain strengthened the dark side. It gave him an advantage Obi-Wan could not match. Unless he let go of his own despair and let the living Force move him — the Force that bound all living things together, even Obi-Wan and this new, deadly, evil Anakin.

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith junior novelization

The words stabbed at Obi-Wan, even though he knew that Anakin was speaking out of his own pain. He felt the dark side grow stronger, feeding on his despair. And then, as Anakin came close enough to swing his lightsaber once more, the Jedi in Obi-Wan rose up and at last he did the thing he hadn’t thought he could do.

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith junior novelization

Only he stands between death and the two men he loves best in all the world, and he can no longer afford to hold anything back. That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freeze away his strength, to whisper him that Dooku has beaten him before, that Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith-

But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.

When Count Dooku flies at him, blade flashing, Watto's fist cracks out from Anakin's childhood to knock the Sith Lord tumbling back.

When with all the power that the dark side can draw from throughout the universe, Dooku hurls a jagged fragment of the durasteel table, Shmi Skywalker's gentle murmur I knew you would come for me, Anakin smashes it aside

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith novelization

Anakin and Obi Wan fight fiercely though the control room on Mustafar. They each tap into the Force as they never have before.

Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith - Play and Sound Interactive Novel

So, yeah, the reason the Jedi win is one of them is going to take Vader down (probably Mace), and from there they can focus their combined efforts on Sidious.

The Jedi certainly have a chance here, mainly due to Windu's Vaapad. He could draw on two targets here simultaneously to become a better duelist than either Sidious or Vader, and with Yoda backing him it's a done deal in sabers.

Sidious could just spam lightning, though, and secure the Sith the win that way.

Azronger wrote:The Jedi certainly have a chance here, mainly due to Windu's Vaapad. He could draw on two targets here simultaneously to become a better duelist than either Sidious or Vader, and with Yoda backing him it's a done deal in sabers.

Sidious could just spam lightning, though, and secure the Sith the win that way.

And how exactly Sidious spamming lightning will give the edge to Sith? Yoda's Tutaminis is enough to hold it.

@ILS 

What we're essentially looking at, then, are two 9s who got there without shortcuts (Yoda and Sidious), an 8 finally joining the 9s once he masters his power (Mace), an 8 taking a shortcut to join the 9s by embracing his raw power without mastering it fully (Vader), and an 8 who has mastered the power in his possession, and perhaps even making it to the threshold of the vaunted tier 9 himself in the process (Obi-Wan).

Interesting. So you think the 8 bordering on 9 applies to pre-office Mace, but upon being thrown into the fight with Sheev Mace has come to terms with his power and reached the 9 bracket?

Worth noting that Mace being a 8 is only per Gillard, who has a limited role within continuity and who (with Lucas' approval) said Mace is a 9. I'm personally more inclined to take the Making of which was made with Lucas' approval and which pegs Mace as a 9 over Gillard's soft retcons years later which aren't approved by Lucas. Lucas seemed to consider Mace in the same bracket as Yoda, Sidious and KFV, in any case. Not disagreeing with you btw, just presenting an alternative idea that I'd like your thoughts on.

BoD wrote:@ILS 

What we're essentially looking at, then, are two 9s who got there without shortcuts (Yoda and Sidious), an 8 finally joining the 9s once he masters his power (Mace), an 8 taking a shortcut to join the 9s by embracing his raw power without mastering it fully (Vader), and an 8 who has mastered the power in his possession, and perhaps even making it to the threshold of the vaunted tier 9 himself in the process (Obi-Wan).

Interesting. So you think the 8 bordering on 9 applies to pre-office Mace, but upon being thrown into the fight with Sheev Mace has come to terms with his power and reached the 9 bracket?

Worth noting that Mace being a 8 is only per Gillard, who has a limited role within continuity and who (with Lucas' approval) said Mace is a 9. I'm personally more inclined to take the Making of which was made with Lucas' approval and which pegs Mace as a 9 over Gillard's soft retcons years later which aren't approved by Lucas. Lucas seemed to consider Mace in the same bracket as Yoda, Sidious and KFV, in any case. Not disagreeing with you btw, just presenting an alternative idea that I'd like your thoughts on.

I've always thought Mace starts as an 8 at TPM and through the course of Stover's works (Shatterpoint and Revenge of the Sith) he becomes a 9, and thus the "8 bordering on 9" always made sense. And it would also make sense to call him a 9 during RotS because that's where he becomes one.

team 1 since this is MFV

Either of team one are superior to Anakin mentally and comparable to him physically. The only route to victory I can see for Sith is if Sidious is parred up with Mace and he opens up with lightning and overpowers Mace before Yoda can defeat Anakin.

MFV Vader is only a 9 physically, but he's not mentally because he became a 9 too quickly, whereas Sidious and Yoda are 9s physically and mentally because they got there at a reasonable pace, so they've mastered their power, whereas Vader hasn't because he lacks the mental discipline:



^ And please tell me where that's from because I don't know the name of the book. Anakin's actor has also implicitly supported this, saying that he believes that Anakin isn't able to focus and control his emotions:

Hayden Christenson: Darth Vader's fighting style is much more aggressive and much more brutal than Anakin's. I think that the end fight where Anakin and Obi-Wan try to resolve their differences, Obi-Wan comes out with the better hand, but I think that's a result, or you know derivative of Anakin's emotions, and not being able to focus them and control them, which is just you know the root of Anakin's inabilities.

Source -- Star Wars Episode III: The Chosen One Featurette. 

This is albeit his opinion, but his opinion is accurate. Anakin is far too mentally unbalanced to be a conventional level 9, and let's not forget that focus is an essential factor for Force users to fight properly, because unfocused emotion lead to tunnel vision.