ROTS | Sidious vs Windu Discussion

Kinda different position to Mace legit won. No other interpretation satisfies all sources. At least the implication from you seems to be that Mace can disarm Sidious in a neutral context.

My interpretation of the fight personally is that they duelled evenly in the saber portion before Sidious let him win. Then in the Lightning clash going by the film the two were fairly evenly matched but going by the novel Sidious was in the verge of winning.

Meatpants wrote:Doesn't matter. Even if Windu disarms him somehow, he just overpowers black man with the Force.

Based on what? Going by the film Sidious wasn't on the verge of overpowering Windu unlike what the novel suggests.

Meatpants wrote:Kinda different position to Mace legit won. No other interpretation satisfies all sources. At least the implication from you seems to be that Mace can disarm Sidious in a neutral context.

From a strictly novel-based standpoint, Mace and Sidious were perfect dueling equals. However, when we factor in the movie itself and secondary sources, it seems pretty clear to me that Windu legitimately disarmed Sidious. New Essential Chronology states that Sidious unleashed "his full fury" to kill Fisto, Kolar, and Tiin, and Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force notes that Sidious used a "concentrated Dark Side confusion haze," to take out the other Jedi, implying that it didn't affect Mace.

The novel notes that Sidious was able to kill the B-team before Mace could react, but this is clearly contradicted by the movie. You claimed before that Anakin's distance from the duel wouldn't affect Mace sensing his shatterpoint, but I question that as well, since proximity has always affected Force presences and senses. Especially in this context, where Mace was searching through Sidious' massive Dark Side presence.

I mean I am of two minds about this, I think I will just leave the idea here that Lucas's words to not fit with the EU, and thus should be treated as a seperate continuity. In Lucas world KOTOR, TOR, and NJO never happened, and don't give me that bullshit about how he was speaking about his universe there and not the EU. The difference is that Lucas is either always talking about his universe (ergo Darth maul stomps Luke and Ben as of TPM, qui-gon as well. In fact we can take that to mean that all fully trained Jedi knights stomp OT characters) since "we have never seen real jedis at work" and "we only ever say old men and half men, half machine and young boys before" So basically all the PT Jedi are above all the OT characters, all of the pre Bane EU is erased and all of the entire continuity is altered just because this guy said so...



I mean, I'm not shaming Lucas or shaming those who like his verse, but the "muh G canon" argument is getting old, the EU and Lucas disagree with each other and until we seperate the two we cannot have a cohesive verse. Many are quick to call me moronic and say that Lucas has multiple universes, but the thing is... which one is he talking about? I don't see it fair that Lucas is the jurisdiction over all things for one quote and then another is just dismissed. If you follow Lucas whole heartedly and accept G canon, you must then accept that KOTOR, TOR, and all the things people seem to love so much is non canon because "Muh Lucas" or "Lucas said so"

with that small piece of my thoughts given, contextualizing all the quotes for this answer is impossible if we do it in one continuity so I'll separate my answers.

In Lucasverse: Mace Windu won the fight legitimately

In the EU (satisfying all quotes and constraints): Sidious allowed Mace to get revved up and Mace contended via speed equalization, Sidious could have killed Mace with the force, and even could have killed him with his blade in the beginning but because Sidious prolonged the fight Mace was able to equalize himself with Sidious (via Vaapad) and turn that power back on the older master of the force, and it was indeed a legitimate disarm and somewhat of a legitimate win for Mace as of the "vaapad part of the fight"

That is a stance not supported by literally any source, EU or that so-called "Lucas-verse."

@SithArchaeologist

What about any of that proves Sidious legitimately lost to Mace?

The Cosmic Force wrote:My interpretation of the fight personally is that they duelled evenly in the saber portion before Sidious let him win. Then in the Lightning clash going by the film the two were fairly evenly matched but going by the novel Sidious was in the verge of winning.

How does Sidious let Windu win? I used to think this, but not so sure about it now. Windu disarmed Sidious via a shatterpoint, a legitimate disarm within the context of the duel.

And I think you're taking the movie too literally. Nobody cares if they seem "fairly evenly matched". We're not arguing movie purism, the novel, line edited by Lucas, gives us the thoughts of Windu as it was happening, and Windu acknowledges that Vaapad isn't enough to stop Sidious' power. Let's not forget as well that Sidious manages to force push Windu into a wall in the script and comic; and at the window Windu barely deflects another force push because he diverted attention.

SithArchaeologist wrote:From a strictly novel-based standpoint, Mace and Sidious were perfect dueling equals. However, when we factor in the movie itself and secondary sources, it seems pretty clear to me that Windu legitimately disarmed Sidious. New Essential Chronology states that Sidious unleashed "his full fury" to kill Fisto, Kolar, and Tiin, and Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force notes that Sidious used a "concentrated Dark Side confusion haze," to take out the other Jedi, implying that it didn't affect Mace.

The novel notes that Sidious was able to kill the B-team before Mace could react, but this is clearly contradicted by the movie. You claimed before that Anakin's distance from the duel wouldn't affect Mace sensing his shatterpoint, but I question that as well, since proximity has always affected Force presences and senses. Especially in this context, where Mace was searching through Sidious' massive Dark Side presence.

You're just spewing out irrelevant stuff honestly. Either you agree that Windu disarmed Sidious via Anakin's shatterpoint, or he didn't. These other sources you're bringing up don't change the circumstances of the disarm.

Lying ISV strikes again.

In-sidiousvader wrote:In the EU (satisfying all quotes and constraints): Sidious allowed Mace to get revved up and Mace contended via speed equalization, Sidious could have killed Mace with the force, and even could have killed him with his blade in the beginning but because Sidious prolonged the fight Mace was able to equalize himself with Sidious (via Vaapad) and turn that power back on the older master of the force, and it was indeed a legitimate disarm and somewhat of a legitimate win for Mace as of the "vaapad part of the fight"

I agree that Sidious can overcome Windu with the Force, but proof that Sidious intentionally prolonged the duel to allow Windu to equalise?

@Meatpants

I don't care to get into the specifics of Sidious vs Windu and whether Mace legitimately won or not so I'll hold off that until I muster up the energy.

And I think you're taking the movie too literally. Nobody cares if they seem "fairly evenly matched". We're not arguing movie purism, the novel, line edited by Lucas, gives us the thoughts of Windu as it was happening, and Windu acknowledges that Vaapad isn't enough to stop Sidious' power. Let's not forget as well that Sidious manages to force push Windu into a wall in the script and comic; and at the window Windu barely deflects another force push because he diverted attention.

Windu thinks Vapaad can't stand up against Sidious because his blade is being bent back to his face which never happens in the movie lmao. I don't particularly care to argue movie purism anymore but going by the film the two were evenly matched. Also, Force Pushing someone isn't indicative of superiority.

Meatpants wrote:

In-sidiousvader wrote:In the EU (satisfying all quotes and constraints): Sidious allowed Mace to get revved up and Mace contended via speed equalization, Sidious could have killed Mace with the force, and even could have killed him with his blade in the beginning but because Sidious prolonged the fight Mace was able to equalize himself with Sidious (via Vaapad) and turn that power back on the older master of the force, and it was indeed a legitimate disarm and somewhat of a legitimate win for Mace as of the "vaapad part of the fight"

I agree that Sidious can overcome Windu with the Force, but proof that Sidious intentionally prolonged the duel to allow Windu to equalise?

Well I believe the new fact files which have some veracity to legends imo since the first 40 issues were planned before the split say that he prolonged the fight as well as it makes the most sense contextually, the best example I can give of Sidious' ability to end the fight then and there comes by way of the movies choreography



Admittedly Choreography is not the best way to determine the character with the most advantages, but in this case it seems pretty clear that Sidious at the very least had the upper hand at this moment, before he let Mace slip into Vaapad

The Cosmic Force wrote:I don't care to get into the specifics of Sidious vs Windu and whether Mace legitimately won or not so I'll hold off that until I muster up the energy.

How convenient.

The Cosmic Force wrote:Windu thinks Vapaad can't stand up against Sidious because his blade is being bent back to his face which never happens in the movie lmao. I don't particularly care to argue movie purism anymore but going by the film the two were evenly matched.

Since when are we going by the film? It's either the film, or film + EU, and the latter (in which Lucas actually had a hand in editing and approved) says Windu was too weak to overcome Sidious' power, and he disarms Sidious via shatterpoint, not because Sidious decided to drop his lightsaber.

In-sidiousvader wrote:Well I believe the new fact files which have some veracity to legends imo since the first 40 issues were planned before the split say that he prolonged the fight as well as it makes the most sense contextually, the best example I can give of Sidious' ability to end the fight then and there comes by way of the movies choreography

Nah, either the material is Canon or Legends. Furthermore, I'd like to see that quote and explanation for why your position "makes the most sense contextually".

In-sidiousvader wrote:Admittedly Choreography is not the best way to determine the character with the most advantages, but in this case it seems pretty clear that Sidious at the very least had the upper hand at this moment, before he let Mace slip into Vaapad

Uhhh, do I really need to respond to this?

@Meatpants

How convenient.

10/10 bait ngl.

Since when are we going by the film?

We aren't. I made a comment about the film and the novel respectively. Combining the two and going by the official canon policy the movie takes precedence but honestly, I don't care either way.

It's either the film, or film + EU, and the latter (in which Lucas actually had a hand in editing and approved) says Windu was too weak to overcome Sidious' power, and he disarms Sidious via shatterpoint, not because Sidious decided to drop his lightsaber.

1. Your point doesn't actually address my rebuttal. Going film+EU Mace isn't about to be overpowered by Sidious as the reason Mace thinks he's about to lose (his blade is bent back to his face) isn't present in the movie which overrules its novelization. But as I said I don't care to argue canon policy.

2. As I said I'm not delving into the specifics of whether Sidious let himself get beaten or not.

That post is literally "haha, bait [...] "muh movie purism" [...] I stated my position but won't defend it."

Meatpants wrote:That post is literally "haha, bait [...] "muh movie purism" [...] I stated my position but won't defend it."

I mean I literally said I don't care about movie purism. But given you can't actually address the points given I'll accept your concession. Good discussion as always.

A good work on this have been already done by silver some time ago. At least it could be a good starting point unstead of starting once again from the begining a debate that have already been done. Here the post from Silver

I basically agree with Silver in the general sense. There's a lot of stuff he doesn't cover imo, but I don't think it's safe enough to conclude everything went exactly as Sidious planned. Mace legitimately disarmed him (but through Anakin's fear), and Mace's Vaapad was circumstantially boosted; allowing him to contend equally with Sidious (although I believe Sidious would have eventually edged out in sabers anyway).

No, Mace being amped vastly has been pretty much debunked long before this

Even if he wasn't boosted vastly for the sake of argument, he's still an overall inferior to Sidious.

That's obvious

Palpatine wins 8/10, what we saw was this 2/10 option happening. That's how I always viewed this, and this has never changed, tbh.

I’ve changed my mind now. Sidious threw the fight.

Despite that being supported by...zero sources.