Darth Vader V Exar Kun

LadyKulvax wrote:I've been reading Star Wars lore since the 90s.

KingofBlades wrote:It's real but I don't think EC sourced it correctly. Regardless the source is IU.

LadyKulvax wrote:

KingofBlades wrote:It's real but I don't think EC sourced it correctly. Regardless the source is IU.

Such as this? Seriously, give me the title instead of vague directions to TPM-related source material.

As far as I can tell, your argument is based on faulty premises.

LadyKulvax wrote:Kun murderstomps him, he is literally confirmed to be stronger via a plethora of scaling.

There is literally no argument to be made for Vader here.

LadyKulvax wrote:Concession accepted, you can't even tell me what exact source it is from. I don't know if it is IU or OOU or if it's even Legends given TPM had a massive 3D re-release just prior to the Disney buyout. Which would make it a G-canon to Disney Canon source.

Insulting my knowledge of the mythos because you don't even know where the scan is from is just laughable.

LadyKulvax wrote:You mean faulty scaling premises? Lmao, okay.

LadyKulvax wrote:TOTJ Kun is far more powerful than JA Kun, that's an indisputable canonical fact.

TOTJ Kun >>> JA Kun >> DS Kyp Durron > JA Luke > DE Luke > ROTJ Luke >/~ ROTJ Vader isn't disputable either, this is stated as fact in sources.

EmperorCaedus wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:Concession accepted, you can't even tell me what exact source it is from. I don't know if it is IU or OOU or if it's even Legends given TPM had a massive 3D re-release just prior to the Disney buyout. Which would make it a G-canon to Disney Canon source.

Insulting my knowledge of the mythos because you don't even know where the scan is from is just laughable.

The quote was made in 2011. I'd suggest expanding your knowledge on Star Wars a bit more if you'd like to argue with me. For the final time, the source is The Phantom Menace's various handbooks and sourcebooks.

EmperorCaedus wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:TOTJ Kun is far more powerful than JA Kun, that's an indisputable canonical fact.

TOTJ Kun >>> JA Kun >> DS Kyp Durron > JA Luke > DE Luke > ROTJ Luke >/~ ROTJ Vader isn't disputable either, this is stated as fact in sources.

I've debunked this already. Scroll up.

LadyKulvax wrote:

EmperorCaedus wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:Concession accepted, you can't even tell me what exact source it is from. I don't know if it is IU or OOU or if it's even Legends given TPM had a massive 3D re-release just prior to the Disney buyout. Which would make it a G-canon to Disney Canon source.

Insulting my knowledge of the mythos because you don't even know where the scan is from is just laughable.

The quote was made in 2011. I'd suggest expanding your knowledge on Star Wars a bit more if you'd like to argue with me. For the final time, the source is The Phantom Menace's various handbooks and sourcebooks.

So it's from a G-canon source that doesn't take into account anything prior to it? Thanks for clarifying, finally.

KingofBlades wrote:The source for the maul quote is apparently Star Wars: Ultimate Duels by Lindsey Kent.

KingofBlades wrote:The source for the maul quote is apparently Star Wars: Ultimate Duels by Lindsey Kent.

Star Wars: Ultimate Duels wrote:It is clear from this duel [Qui Gon vs Maul on Tatooine] that the Sith are very much alive and more powerful than ever.

EmperorCaedus wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

EmperorCaedus wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:Concession accepted, you can't even tell me what exact source it is from. I don't know if it is IU or OOU or if it's even Legends given TPM had a massive 3D re-release just prior to the Disney buyout. Which would make it a G-canon to Disney Canon source.

Insulting my knowledge of the mythos because you don't even know where the scan is from is just laughable.

The quote was made in 2011. I'd suggest expanding your knowledge on Star Wars a bit more if you'd like to argue with me. For the final time, the source is The Phantom Menace's various handbooks and sourcebooks.

So it's from a G-canon source that doesn't take into account anything prior to it? Thanks for clarifying, finally.

No, this just means Maul is above every sith before SWTOR. They obviously took prievious Sith Lords, or they wouldn't have said "The Sith are back, more powerful than ever." Obviously they would be talking about prievious Sith Lords if they said the Sith were back. Your reaching of false arguments is hilarious. I'd suggest expanding your knowledge.

LadyKulvax wrote:

EmperorCaedus wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

EmperorCaedus wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:Concession accepted, you can't even tell me what exact source it is from. I don't know if it is IU or OOU or if it's even Legends given TPM had a massive 3D re-release just prior to the Disney buyout. Which would make it a G-canon to Disney Canon source.

Insulting my knowledge of the mythos because you don't even know where the scan is from is just laughable.

The quote was made in 2011. I'd suggest expanding your knowledge on Star Wars a bit more if you'd like to argue with me. For the final time, the source is The Phantom Menace's various handbooks and sourcebooks.

So it's from a G-canon source that doesn't take into account anything prior to it? Thanks for clarifying, finally.

No, this just means Maul is above every sith before SWTOR. They obviously took prievious Sith Lords, or they wouldn't have said "The Sith are back, more powerful than ever." Obviously they would be talking about prievious Sith Lords if they said the Sith were back. Your reaching of false arguments is hilarious. I'd suggest expanding your knowledge.

They're not talking about SWTOR, they're talking about the Rule of Two. It's literally referring to the TPM scene where the Jedi Council ponders that the Sith had returned after being extinct for a millennia. Which has absolutely nothing to do with C-canon/Legends.

LadyKulvax wrote:Maul > Plagueis. #confirmed

The quote doesn't encompass C-canon. End of discussion. This is laserbrain.

1.Yes, but the quote you're using is referring to The Old Republic, not the old republic era as defined by The Phantom Menace. Given his only authority is within the bounds of SWTOR then he's pretty clearly choosing his words carefully.

  If I was arguing that, I wouldn't have said Vitiate < Sidious, would I?

2.The Omniscient Narrator of TOTJ states

he's the most powerful dark sider in the galaxy and isn't even in his prime yet.

A quote that comes from 2008.

3.The SWTOR:E is an in-universe source per the very first thing you read when you open it.

4.Even if it wasn't IU,

all of the quotes therein are dated as of the battle of Ilum which is when the thing is sey. Which at best means that after 350 years Vitiate became more powerful than Exar Kun.

5.The Backus quote isn't saying that a near-death Vitiate and Revan are two of the most powerful Force-users ever. He's not being anywhere near that specific, it's referring to them in general. You added on context where it doesn't exist. Not that this even means that the quote puts them above or near Kun in the first place.

Again, refer to 1. He's only referring to the Old Republic as in the media umbrella for the game and that setting.

He's only the Lead Designer for SWTOR, and that's one of many, might I add. That doesn't given him authority over anything beyond or prior and that's clear in how much water he's willing to tread.

The only version of Exar Kun we even see within the frame of reference of SWTOR is his spirit and it ragdolls the SOR protags, so I'm not sure you're doing yourself much of a favor by pointing towards Shadow of Revan.

You're asking for a concession when your argument is nothing but appeals to IU portrayal or BioWare staff.

If we want to go around using IU portrayal, boy are you in for a ride given what kind of things are said about Kun in the timeframe of the NR era.

EmperorCaedus wrote:

Star Wars: Ultimate Duels wrote:It is clear from this duel [Qui Gon vs Maul on Tatooine] that the Sith are very much alive and more powerful than ever.

The quote is clearly alluding to previous Sith Lords. Maul is >>>>>> Exar Kun. End of discussion.

LadyKulvax wrote:You keep claiming this ludicrousness and yet never prove anything you say.

Kun is better than the characters you like, deal with it.

BreakofDawn wrote:

1.Yes, but the quote you're using is referring to The Old Republic, not the old republic era as defined by The Phantom Menace. Given his only authority is within the bounds of SWTOR then he's pretty clearly choosing his words carefully.

  If I was arguing that, I wouldn't have said Vitiate < Sidious, would I?

2.The Omniscient Narrator of TOTJ states

I think you need to double check what "omniscient" means, because it's definitely not applicable here.

he's the most powerful dark sider in the galaxy and isn't even in his prime yet.

Again, before Vitiate was elaborated on as a character and established as the most powerful.

A quote that comes from 2008.

Why are you having so much trouble understanding that Vitiate's superiority was acknowledged from 2011 onwards? In 2008, barely anything was known about him IU or OOU. 

3.The SWTOR:E is an in-universe source per the very first thing you read when you open it.

It also uses OOU information, per its own admission.

4.Even if it wasn't IU,

An IU which also uses OOU information.

all of the quotes therein are dated as of the battle of Ilum which is when the thing is sey. Which at best means that after 350 years Vitiate became more powerful than Exar Kun.

No, considering that the encyclopedia makes no distinction between when Vitiate became "supremely powerful", just that he is. 

5.The Backus quote isn't saying that a near-death Vitiate and Revan are two of the most powerful Force-users ever. He's not being anywhere near that specific, it's referring to them in general. You added on context where it doesn't exist. Not that this even means that the quote puts them above or near Kun in the first place.

> Quote is written in the context of SoR.
> Vitiate being near-death is even specified in the quote: 
"Revan travels to a very iconic Yavin IV to go to battle and release the actual Emperor, one we thought who was defeated not long ago. 
> Vitiate, despite being on the brink of death, is still considered at this point to be one of the most powerful Force users in galactic history.

Not hard to understand.

Again, refer to 1. He's only referring to the Old Republic as in the media umbrella for the game and that setting.

Then he would have said "in the game." Instead, he specified "in the history of the Old Republic." 

He's only the Lead Designer for SWTOR, and that's one of many, might I add. That doesn't given him authority over anything beyond or prior and that's clear in how much water he's willing to tread.

My name is Michael Backus, and I’m the Lead Designer on Star Wars: The Old Republic. I joined the BioWare team over 8 years ago and have spent the majority of my time on SW:TOR. My job really has two main parts: The first is to manage the Design team on SW:TOR. The second is to work with leadership and bring the vision of the game to life at AAA-quality for our players. That means sharing the vision with team members, documenting designs, and working with the team to flesh out the details of designing new features and gameplay.


In charge of and oversees design on the game. 

The only version of Exar Kun we even see within the frame of reference of SWTOR is his spirit and it ragdolls the SOR protags, so I'm not sure you're doing yourself much of a favor by pointing towards Shadow of Revan.

He knocks them backwards while there's no evidence they were combat ready trying to defend themselves, and due to his nature as a spirit they couldn't retaliate. Hardly ragdolling them. This is an example of the SoR protags being ragdolled:

You're asking for a concession when your argument is nothing but appeals to IU portrayal or BioWare staff.

As opposed to milking a so-called "Omniscient" narrator quote from TOTJ (when they clearly didn't know about Vitiate as a character) to say he's stronger? Right...

If we want to go around using IU portrayal, boy are you in for a ride given what kind of things are said about Kun in the timeframe of the NR era.

Go for it.

Specters of the Past wrote:There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing.

New Rebellion wrote:She [Leia] wished she had the same certainty. This Kueller had more Force capability than anyone she had encountered in years. Except Exar Kun, and he had been a spirit. Kueller was alive.

He was using these deaths to replenish his own well of hatred. The dark side ate people from within, but while it did so, it gave them too much power.

He appeared to have more power than she had. More power than Luke.

New Rebellion wrote:The presence had neared. It was strong in the dark side. He could feel the ripples, feel a power he hadn't felt in a living being since he encountered the Emperor. Luke had never had a student that powerful, of that he was certain.

New Rebellion wrote:She raised her head. She was stunning, he had to give her that, with her bright green eyes, and red, almost auburn, hair. A woman to respect. A woman that no one ever should tamper with. "I haven't felt power like this since Palpatine in the early days. If this continues, Han, Kueller will be stronger than the Emperor ever was, and he'll do it quicker."

"So you're not here for Luke after all." She swallowed. "It may be too late for Luke. I'm here for the rest of us."

Jedi Academy Vol.3: Champions of the Force wrote:If Kyp could face this final test, Luke would know he'd passed through the fire of his testing-tempered by forces as dire and powerful as those Luke himself had endured.