★ Top Fifteen Tournament #12 - Alliance Commander

I'm aware of that source, yes. He's still affected by Order 66 per half-a-dozen other sources:

See Reynard's ROTS Council Respect Thread wrote:Obi-Wan reached out to the Force to find him, but met only the thin stirring of a barren world. It was strange to live in a galaxy now that had no Jedi in it. He hadn't realized that he had once felt a humming presence, alive with the Force-ability of his fellow Jedi. It had fed him, and he hadn't even known it.
-The Last One Standing

As Yoda approaches 900 years old, he is slowed down not by age but by a spirit broken after the destruction of the Jedi Order.
-Star Wars Head-to-Head

In his contest with Sidious, Yoda realises he is overmatched and deserts the fight, perhaps because his spirit has been broken by so many Jedi deaths.
-Star Wars: Episode III Visual Dictionary

Eyes closed, Yoda gave himself up to the Force. Yes, there it was — the sense of someone reaching for him. Almost, he succeeded. Something brushed close to Yoda … no, someone, someone who felt familiar. And then, suddenly, shock waves ripped through the Force. Jedi are dying.
-Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith Junior Novel

Since most, if not all, of the Jedi were no more, that was all the sweeter, though Vader was convinced that Obi-Wan had remained hidden all these years, as had Yoda, assuming the latter had not finally shuffled off into death. Yoda had been very old, after all, and the defeat and deaths of the Jedi could not have helped him age any easier. He could be dead. But it was unwise to make such assumptions about such a powerful Jedi Master.
-Star Wars: Death Star

Still, he (Ben) hated hiding while Jedi after Jedi was killed by agents of the Emperor’s New Order. He heard every scream of death echo in the force, and his heart broke a little more.
-Heir to the Empire Sourcebook

So at best, Hett was nearly an equal for a far weaker Kenobi than we saw in ROTS. And I'm still yet to see literally any substantiation for even prime Kenobi kicking anyone's ass here.

But let's say you do, indeed provide a decent argument. Per Ostrander, spirit Muur alone is the genuine article for possibly being most powerful Sith in the Legacy era:



Muur is nothing next to Kun. Nothing.

Interesting argument. I wonder how Order 66 affected Hett.




Ah. Cool. So while Obi-Wan was able to fight reflexively, "banishing" distracting thoughts and using Luke as an added motivation, Hett was emotionally unstable at best, giving in to emotions he had no formal training in controlling.

I wonder what would happen if he became one of the most powerful and knowledgeable Sith Lords ever during a time where the dark side had never been more powerful...




Ah. Cool.

As for Muur? Since we're factoring circumstances into quotes, like you've just done with Order 66 being factored into Kenobi drawing on the Force more deeply than ever, we can factor in Krayt's 100+ years past-the-expiration-date body that has been steadily ravaged to the bone and flesh by vong parasites, "dampening his powers" and "draining a great deal of his strength". We can also factor in that Muur had an acceptably powerful host for his power in the form of Morne, per his own dialogue, that her own power would be added to his, and that Sith spirits "retain" their power in death (which if you didn't know is the point of Essence Transfer, it's actually not for the Sith to lose all of their power, fucking crazy I know ). We can factor in that Morne's combined power, at best, briefly stalemated Krayt when he was near-dead, and that even after a free-shot at a lightsaber-impaled Krayt, and after being thrown from a 100+++ meter cliff, Krayt still survived. Oh, and Muur would also benefit from the galaxy Dark Side nexus that Krayt was gracious enough to create for him, which would, alongside Morne's added power, totally knock whatever batshit insane unsubstantiated Kun wankchain you've concocted off-kilter.

We can factor all of that in, and then factor in that Ostrander said "perhaps", and also, that when he says "we have seen", it's not at all clear that he means Muur is more powerful than 130ABY Krayt just because we saw Krayt in 130ABY, when the "perhaps" is predicated on how Morne compared to Krayt in 137ABY.

All these factors. Damn shame for Kun. None of them see to be helpful for him.

Can we all agree that Kun is fodder to the might of krayt?

Kun hasn't even crawled out from under Malak yet.

@ILS: Why Wyyrlok over others like Kueller? Or how does any of that put Wyyrlok above Kueller

EmperorCaedus wrote:@ILS: Why Wyyrlok over others like Kueller? Or how does any of that put Wyyrlok above Kueller

I'll let you know. In the meantime you can enjoy this.

ILS wrote:

EmperorCaedus wrote:@ILS: Why Wyyrlok over others like Kueller? Or how does any of that put Wyyrlok above Kueller

I'll let you know. In the meantime you can enjoy this.

Star wars debating in a nutshell

@ILS: Not going to lie, that is kind of funny bro. Quite an exquisite taste of memes you have there my friend. But do tell, how does this beauteous, rib-tickling, and pulchritudinous all-in-one meme represent me in any kind of capacity? Such a superb meme that has gone to waste. It doesn't represent me in any way, shape, or form. 

Kueller wins. Kueller wins.
Kueller wins. Kueller wins.
Kueller wins. Kueller wins.
Kueller wins. Kueller wins.
Kueller wins. Kueller wins.
Kueller wins. Kueller wins.
Kueller wins. Kueller wins.
Kueller wins. Kueller wins.
Kueller wins. Kueller wins.
Kueller wins. Kueller wins.
Kueller wins. Kueller wins.
Kueller wins. Kueller wins.

Difference being that Hett being hindered and Kenobi being hindered renders any attempt at drawing a comparison to any Kenobi throughout Revenge of the Sith keeping in mind 'Still, he (Ben) hated hiding while Jedi after Jedi was killed by agents of the Emperor’s New Order. He heard every scream of death echo in the force, and his heart broke a little more.' meaning he's constantly getting worse as more and more Jedi are being killed until the point where he faces Hett. Something Hett isn't experiencing.

As much as you might like to apply context, Ostrander specifically separates Morne from Muur's equation: 'The real question readers should be asking is not whether Celeste survives the last issue of "Vector" but if Karness Muur does. If that happens, a very powerful Sith - perhaps stronger than any other we've seen thus far in "Legacy'-' Celeste's power is explicitly not involved. Muur alone, regardless of Morne, is explicitly stated to possibly be the strongest Sith in all of Legacy. The possibility is there, which makes the fact Muur had the excess power to gravely wound Azlyn Rae, Shado Vao, Cade and Maladi whilst ragdolling Krayt.

Karness Muur is not even as powerful as someone like Ludo Kressh; third most powerful Sith of his time, per Chronicles of the Old Republic we know that the Sith Empire has grown powerful through centuries of dark Force wielding and magic and the hundred-year rule of the greatest Dark Lord of the Sith, MARKA RAGNOS. Meaning the Sith of Ragnos' Golden Age are even stronger than the start of civilisation under Pall. Ludo and Sadow both believing they'd be 'crushed' by Ragnos' power. And this is supported by Pall's statement regarding the Star Map on Korriban 'It came from elsewhere - our oldest secret. Only we would know, we lords. Only we would know where our power came from.' the source of the Exiles' power was the Star Map which Pall further says had 'So much power... it is blinding.' the Map was blinding to Pall and worse it manipulated them 'Is it not... obvious what we did? We destroyed each other. We desired the secrets of each other, to increase our power... we battled until finally our fortress rained down on top of us.' much like the Star Forge did to the entire Rakatan civilisation, it manipulated them to destroy themselves and then took their power for itself: 'And so here our old secret is buried and none of us hold it any more... is that not right? Our power fled.'. Simply put, the Star Map wasn't just the source of their power, it destroyed them. Yet the Sith Empire during the time of Ragnos wasn't manipulated by the Star Map nor needed its power. Instead, the Star Map isn't even the central source of power on Korriban. Kreia's in 'awe' of Ragnos' tomb, unlike any other tomb on Korriban:

Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Script wrote:{barely detectable awe}

“Before you is the tomb of the great Sith Lord Marka Ragnos, a half-breed who possessed tremendous strength, both physically and in the Force."

Furthermore, it's Ragnos' tomb not Sadow's; where the Star Map lies, that is Korriban's greatest source of dark power despite you literally visiting the Map:

The Wilds Codex Entry wrote:Nowhere on Korriban is the planet’s dark influence stronger than in the lower wilds.

Furthermore, if you want one of my scaling chains, we know that the Exiles are collectively massively dwarfed in power by Malak who has the power of the Star Forge. An object immeasurably more powerful than the Star Maps ever were. Yet per the admittance of Kreia, Nihilus' power is self-evident "“One cannot have power of that magnitude and still think and perceive the universe as we do.", this being in a conversation where the Exile literally can't fathom Nihilus' power: "How can anyone have that kind of power?" and finds out for herself that Kreia isn't just correct but underselled him: "He speaks, his voice roaring, and the player should realize that Nihilus is far more powerful than they had believed. Yet despite Nihilus being a magnitude above them all, he's still only rivalling the power of some of the ancient Sith per Kreia: "I fear he may even rival some of the ancient Sith." The likes of Ragnos and Kun are each ever-increasingly more powerful than any other ancient Sith. Keeping in mind that spirit Nadd dwarfed meditation sphere-amped Sadow before pre-Alchemy growth Yavin IV Exar Kun surpasses him and then grows tenfold in strength. Which by itself indicates Kun is a massive stomp gap above any other ancient.

Yeah, pretty sure Wyyrlok III is fodder next to Kun.

Yeah Wyyrlok has nothing on Kun, he doesn’t belong here

I'm afraid...



YOU JUST ACTIVATED MY TRAP CARD

I activate #98 of Star Wars Insider, in which it is stated that:



Haha.

If Muur grows more powerful with each century, and there are nearly 72 centuries between the time he became the galaxy's most annoying wrist strap and when he shows up in Legacy, using the laws of Old Republician Wankodynamics, it would appear that any comparison using Muur as an exile and him as he appears in Legacy are rendered untenable... well, unless you wanted to use them in favour of Legacy, I suppose. Let's go back to considering those factors:

Exhibit A: Karness Muur grows more powerful with each passing century.

Exhibit B: The Muur talisman makes the wearer more powerful than they were before, as they combine their power with Karness Muur's own.

Exhibit C: The Dark Side of the Force never held sway more dominantly, the Force never more out of balance, at any other point of history than during Legacy.

Exhibit D: Darth Krayt, at the time he stalemated the full, unbridled power of prime 137ABY Karness Morne, was in a "failing husk" of an excuse for an ancient body, and had also just used Force Lightning to kill several Rakghouls, further weakening him.

Your unsubstantiated gibberish about Star Maps is one thing, but this is a bonafide reason to scale the very weakest version of Legacy Krayt at least equal to an egregiously amplified member of the Ancient Sith pantheon.

As you well know, Darth Wyyrlok would go on to contend with the Reborn Darth Krayt, a being, quite literally, exponentially more powerful in every way compared to Vector Krayt, able to resist his direct telekinesis, and withstand his full-power in a duel long enough to cast Memory Walk.

Please explain exactly how Muur getting more dangerous equates to getting more powerful. I'm confused as to how you made such an enormous leap in reading comprehension. Muur goes from inert, to actively looking for hosts, to turning a moon of people into Rakghouls. Yes, he gets more dangerous as he gets more active. Power has nothing to do with this.

As a matter of fact, I'd deem he's much weaker. Continuing on from the Star Map 'gibberish' that you clearly conceded. Pall states our power fled, they lost their source of power, the power of the Star Map, as they were destroyed just as the Rakatans got stripped of theirs by the Forge and their civilisation died. So the Muur in the talisman is weaker than the one that the Golden Age top dogs scales off of.

So the Muur that demonstrates the ability to use far less than full power to dominate Krayt and is stated to be perhaps the most powerful Sith in the Legacy series, isn't as powerful as Muur with the Star Map amplification. Boy, this black hole for Krayt just getting stronger. Will he be Bane tier? Vader tier? Keep reading to find out!

Worse, much worse, is the fact that you repeatedly make claims of Krayt being 1%. Krayt's telekinesis and Force lightning 'far outstripped' Wyyyyyyrlok 3's even at your supposed '1%' yet as you say:

As you well know, Darth Wyyrlok would go on to contend with the Reborn Darth Krayt, a being, quite literally, exponentially more powerful in every way compared to Vector Krayt, able to resist his direct telekinesis, and withstand his full-power in a duel long enough to cast Memory Walk.

So what's true? Krayt doesn't actually far out-strip Warlock III or he isn't at 1%? Just hoping you could clarify, you appear to have this immense knowledge of the Legacy series far outstripping my own. Perhaps you can explain why a Krayt literally one hundred times more powerful didn't make Whurluk disintegrate with his breath. Which of course means Krayt definitely wasn't 1% when Muur curbstomped him.

Perhaps Andeddu and Bane were right:

Still voting Kun over any of these goddamn chump characters.

Exar Kun

Yeah AP

I lost all respect when you said "See Ethan's Respect Thread!"

RIP, the malak quote put you to sleep, that suggestion euthanized you, may you find peace in another world

Kun

> Korriban wrote:Yeah AP

I lost all respect when you said "See Ethan's Respect Thread!"

RIP, the malak quote put you to sleep, that suggestion euthanized you, may you find peace in another world

Why wouldn't I credit the discoverer? He found them. Basic courtesy.

Besides read prior pages for Malak quote rebuttal.

Lol, it's not the crediting, it's the idea that the argument holds validity.

Why wouldn't Kenobi be getting hindered by feeling all those Jedi deaths?

That's immediately post Order 66. Afterwards as seen in Coruscant Nights Jax gets his connection to the force back and becomes "more powerful than ever" and more in tune with nature than before. It's blatantly a deceptive argument

> Korriban wrote:That's immediately post Order 66. Afterwards as seen in Coruscant Nights Jax gets his connection to the force back and becomes "more powerful than ever" and more in tune with nature than before. It's blatantly a deceptive argument

Good for Jax. Not so good for anyone without said statements.

Same logic can be applied...

He was weakened and grew more powerful than ever before and got ragdolled. Quit trying to fit things with percieved bias at least keep your ignorance to yourself, less embarrassing that way.

Let's perform a critical analysis to see his so called emotional hindrance:

A curve of knuckle, skinned, black scab corrugated with dirt
and leaking red—
The fringe of fray at the cuff of a beige sleeve, dark, crusted
with splatter from the death of a general—
The tawny swirl of grain in wine-dark tabletop of polished
Alderaanian kriin—
These were what Obi-Wan Kenobi could look at without
starting to shake.
The walls of the small conference room on Tantive IV were
too featureless to hold his attention; to look at a wall allowed his
mind to wander...
And the shaking began.
The shaking got worse when he met the ancient green stare of the tiny alien seated across the table from him, for that wrinkled leather skin and those tufts of withered hair were his earliest
memory, and they reminded Obi-Wan of the friends who had died today.
The shaking got worse still when he turned to the other being in the room, because he wore politician's robes that re-minded Obi-Wan of the enemy who yet lived.
The deception. The death of Jedi Masters he had admired, of Jedi Knights who had been his friends. The death of his oath to Qui-Gon.
The death of Anakin.
Anakin must have fallen along with Mace and Agen, Saesee and Kit; fallen along with the Temple.
Along with the Order itself.
Ashes.
Ashes and dust.
Twenty-five thousand years wiped from existence in a single day.
All the dreams. All the promises.
All the children...
"We took them from their homes." Obi-Wan fought to stay in his chair; the pain inside him demanded motion. It became wave after wave of tremors. "We promised their families—"
"Control yourself, you must; still Jedi, you are!"
"Yes, Master Yoda." That scab on his knuckle—focused on that, he could suppress the shaking. "Yes, we are Jedi. But what if we're the last?"
"If the last we are, unchanged our duty is." Yoda settled his chin onto hands folded over the head of his gimer stick. He looked every day of his nearly nine hundred years. "While one Jedi
lives, survive the Order does. Resist the darkness with every breath, we must."
He lifted his head and the stick angled to poke Obi-Wan in the shin. "Especially the darkness in ourselves, young one. Of the dark side, despair is."
The simple truth of this called to him. Even despair is attach-ment: it is a grip clenched upon pain.
Slowly, very slowly, Obi-Wan Kenobi remembered what it was to be a Jedi.
He leaned back in his chair and covered his face with both hands, inhaling a thin stream of air between his palms; into himself with the air he brought pain and guilt and remorse, and as he exhaled, they trailed away and vanished in the air. He breathed out his whole life. Everything he had done, everything he had been, friends and enemies, dreams and hopes and fears.
Empty, he found clarity. Scrubbed clean, the Force shone through him. He sat up and nodded to Yoda.

Credit-Revenge of the Sith

To note, Lucas line edited the novel, meaning it is as close to G-canon as it gets and it holds the preference to any contradictory material. But it gets even more interesting:

The one place where I really had no freedom at all was in the characters’ motivations: Mr. Lucas had an exceptionally clear idea of exactly why everyone was doing what, and he wasn’t about to allow me to mess around with that even a little bit.

Meaning Lucas personally oversaw to the most tiny detail the bits about character motivations. Meaning, the above emotional struggle and Obi Wan rising above it to again function like a Jedi once more is in the thematic intent of the series and overseen to the last detail by George Lucas himself then.

Let's run this down then. Among the quotes Reynard provided, only these two pertain to Obi Wan specifically( we know different Jedi process emotions differently so the ones applicable to Yoda are not applicable to him):

Obi-Wan reached out to the Force to find him, but met only the thin stirring of a barren world. It was strange to live in a galaxy now that had no Jedi in it. He hadn't realized that he had once felt a humming presence, alive with the Force-ability of his fellow Jedi. It had fed him, and he hadn't even known it.
-The Last One Standing

Still, he (Ben) hated hiding while Jedi after Jedi was killed by agents of the Emperor’s New Order. He heard every scream of death echo in the force, and his heart broke a little more.
-Heir to the Empire Sourcebook

So yes, his heart did break.

As outlined so clearly, Obi Wan was literally "shaking" on observing various people and things on Bail's ship because they reminded him of what had happened. To the extent that he fought to stay in his chair because the "pain inside him demanded motion" becoming "wave after wave of tremors" and he could "suppress the shaking" only by focusing on a scab. It is a testament to his emotional state because he is in front of Yoda, a person that he is not supposed to show that kind of emotion to.

But he eventually gets over that. He "breathes out his whole life", and "everything he had done" and "everything he had been", calming himself and attempting to find clarity.
And it is explicitly stated that his mind is now "empty", and that he has found "clarity" to the extent that he was "scrubbed clean and the force shone through him" then. Hence, whatever emotional taint Obi Wan would have received on Order 66 that would have hindered him, was all "scrubbed clean" based on the novel

Definition:

adjective
adjective:
1.
free from dirt, marks, or stains.




So as per the definition above, Obi Wan is scrubbed clean, meaning he is "scrubbed free from any dirt, marks or stains", the stains in question being emotional stains
 so yeah, this should clear the confusion surrounding any imaginary emotional hindrance to Obi Wan as of the battle.



Coming to this quote:

Obi-Wan reached out to the Force to find him, but met only the thin stirring of a barren world. It was strange to live in a galaxy now that had no Jedi in it. He hadn't realized that he had once felt a humming presence, alive with the Force-ability of his fellow Jedi. It had fed him, and he hadn't even known it.
-The Last One Standing

That is the only relevant portion. While it is plausible that he would be somewhat slightly weakened by the Jedi being wiped out, due to the fact that that might affect the power of the light side, that is the only information given. That it "fed" him. Nothing else.

So theoretically,

Post Order 66 Obi Wan at time on receiving a power boost>Pre Order 66 Obi Wan>Post Order 66 Obi Wan a small time after that then

Is possible

The underlined is the only thing the quote tells us. Nothing else. It is entirely possible for Obi Wan to then receive a power boost and surpass his previous self. Note that I mentioned, "slightly weakened" earlier. This is because, we have to consider some precedents:

If the power of the light side fading noticeably weakens Jedi, then let's consider the Yoda battle-Yoda is equal to Sidious. If he was noticeably weakened, then we would have to consider that

BoROTS Yoda>>Yoda=Sidious

But that's not it. While the light fades, the dark side grows in equal measure, so

EoROTS Sidious>>BoROTS Sidious

Meaning, BoROTS Yoda>>Yoda=Sidious>>BoROTS Sidious

That is BoROTS Yoda>>>>BoROTS Sidious

Surely no one would subscribe to such a ludicrous( and wrong, many quotes either put Palpatine as equal to or as the most powerful being in the galaxy even before ROTS) notion. The alternative is then that the light side fading due to the Jedi being wiped out "does not" noticeably affect the Jedi's combative power levels.

The only case you might be able to make for it is emotional hindrance. And just to be clear, the quotes for Yoda do not apply to Obi Wan. We saw what happened in Obi Wan's mind, but we didn't see what happened to Yoda. Each Jedi processes emotion differently, and while you might argue that Yoda would have been better on that than Obi Wan, that does not carry weight here because Yoda has an infinitely greater emotional investment in the Jedi Order than Obi Wan ever could. He has seen the Jedi Order grow and thrive to reach its best that it had been, over the course of 800 years. Obi Wan can't hold a candle to that.

Having established then that

Pre Order 66 Obi Wan>=Post Order 66 Obi Wan a small time after that then( because the light side fading would have a minimal impact at best, as shown above), even if you don't buy the above explanation, to reiterate:

So theoretically,

Post Order 66 Obi Wan at time on receiving a power boost>Pre Order 66 Obi Wan>Post Order 66 Obi Wan a small time after that then

Is possible. The quote does not contradict it at all. To summarize, any notion of Obi Wan being hindered emotionally because of the Jedi being gone in or shortly after ROTS is wrong by the text

@LOTL Nice to see you back - at least for a bit. Also, good post.

> Korriban wrote:That's immediately post Order 66. Afterwards as seen in Coruscant Nights Jax gets his connection to the force back and becomes "more powerful than ever" and more in tune with nature than before. It's blatantly a deceptive argument

When does he say this?